| Author | Message | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
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I'm doing a LOT of business at http://thesolar.biz - here's the list: --------------------- HUP SolarOne SO-6-85-17/12 845 amp/hr 12V Battery $1,739.97 QuickCote Protective Compound 8oz with Applicator Brush $11.97 ("battery terminal goop") Outback VFX2812 Inverter 2.8 kW, 12 Volt, Vented $1,689.97 300 Amp Fuse & Holder Class T Fuse $62.97 (for Outback inverter/charger) OutBack MATE Remote Monitor and Control $212.97 Exeltech XP 1100 Sinewave Inverter 12V DC $597.97 (separate inverter for computer stuff) 200 Amp Class T Fuse & Stud Type Holder $47.97 (for XP1100 inverter) BOG-20002 TriMetric AH/Volt Meter TM2020 $139.97 BOG-20001 TriMetric Shunt 500 Amp $25.97 BOG-26000 50' Prepared Cable $24.97 OutBack MX-60 Charge Controller $459.97 Outback Remote Temp Sensor 1 $25.97 (two) OutBack OBDC-60 DC Breaker 60 Amp 47.94 (one each side of the MX60) (four) BP SX170B 170 Watt 24 Volt Solar Module $709.97 each, $2,839.88 total Complete mount and rack sets for BP solar modules, RV Mount 4 @ $47.97 each, $191.88 total --------------------- I also have a wiring diagram: http://www.equalccw.com/wiringdiagram.gif I'm a wee bit concerned about the matchup between panel wattage (680) and battery amp/hrs (845) but if I'm not getting decent charges out of the panels I can always add one or two more. I can monitor the situation with the Trimetric. I'm going to leave the panel voltage at 24v rather than series/parallel at 48 - that way I can add one panel at a time later and it's also a good safety measure...48v is enough to cross skin resistance, 24v isn't. (I'll run extra-thick cable to the panels, I've got a source for massive piles of good used battery cable for dirt cheap in 20ft+ segments, massive overkill for solar panel wiring.) The secondary inverter for computer stuff is bigger than I'd planned but it's a good one. All the "dirty loads" such as rooftop A/C, washer/dryer and electric 6gal water heater will be off the Outback 2800; any "spurts" onto the 110v wiring from one of those wouldn't be controlled by the Outback but will completely not effect the smaller inverter  . -------------- The rig itself is in the shop (RV Doctor George, Sacramento) getting the rear garage built up and the above added. If you'll recall, I ended up with an early model truck conversion of 33ft on a Ford F450 frame currently set up as a good Class C with a "flatbed car hauler rear". The car hauler bed is being converted into an enclosed motorcycle garage and complete shop with workbench along one side, rear ramp door. Won't be done by the bus-in in Oregon though  . | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
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Where is the gen set to power all this when the sun don't shine? | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
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And, what am I missing here? EVERYTHING is 12v except for the BP pv cells, which are 24v; multiple batteries? | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
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This is what I'm buying to add to the rig. Which already has a good Onan with a recent rebuilt. Only a 4kw but I *think* I can get away with that as I'm only running one A/C. As the the panels. Yup. 24v panels, wired parallel so I can add more on an ad-hoc basis. I could also wire 'em series/parallel for 48v panels and run thinner roof wiring if I wanted to. Driving a single 12v battery. See James, when you buy a solar controller that's worth a dang, you can feed any size battery bank with any size solar array. Call that a "neat side effect" of MPPT. I thought strongly about wiring this bank as 48v but I don't think so because I want to be able to add a fifth panel easily if called for - my panel wattage to battery bank amp ratio is a bit off...livable, I *think* but panel five might be useful. For that matter you can wire panels for 12v or 24v and drive a 48v battery bank. That's if your solar controller is any good. The Outback MX60 is widely considered the best there is. You program the input and output side voltages independently; you also program what sort of battery setup you've got (flooded/AGM/gel) and if you want, set the bulk/float/equalize voltages to whatever is absolute best for your battery bank. And it has a temp sensor stuck to the battery connected with phone cord to make sure you don't screw it up somehow...plus of course I'll be able to monitor what's up with the Trimetric in realtime. The MX60 can even deal with funky input voltages off of "grid tie" panels set up for a way nonstandard DC voltage. This is a godsend if you come across a good deal on used utility panels...sadly the current panel shortage has dried up used supply something fierce, even EBay is deadsville on big panels up past 80watt. Now I know you're fond of your solar controller that can't do any of this (or MPPT). And I know you complain bitterly and endlessly about how your solar setup sucks. Have you stopped and thunk out that there might be a connection between your controller and the suckiness? ------------ There IS a downside to running a 12v battery bank. The MX-60 is rated at 60watts max on the output side. At 12v my amps will go up dramatically; six of these panels would be right at the ragged edge under absolutely ideal conditions...still doable but that's my limit. If I ran a 24v battery bank I could run 12 of these same BP 170w panels. (And this is regardless of what voltage I run the panels at; the MX60 runs into it's first limits on output as that's where the sensitive multi-stage charger circuits are I suppose.) But...I can't see needing more than six of these panels tops. 12v on the battery bank gives me the flexibility to cross-wire the vehicle charging system in while rolling as that's 12v. And 12v parts are generally cheaper. | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
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Class C Wont be ready for the busin? Key word is BUS . I did not think it was for stick and staple class C wana be buses? I may be wrong but is this not a BUS Board for mostly bus related stuff for people with buses. After your last reply to the reply to your post I realy lost any insterst in reading any thing you post. Brian 4905 BUS | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
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Brian - A little consideration here. . . If you can recall, Jim spent several agonizing months trying to find a bus conversion or other type of RV that would suit his needs, which were somewhat "out of the box" compared to what most of us busnuts are familiar with or want for our own usage. What he finally did find wasn't exactly what he was looking for, but, with some minor modifications and modest cost, he felt it would suit him. Granted, the unit he found was based on a Class C, which is not the usual norm around BNO, however, I do not see that as a reason to bash him for posting on this site. House systems are house systems, regardless of whether they're in a stick 'n staple, a transit bus, a skoolie, a Prevost, or a Kingsley KW. And you yourself are well aware of the wealth of knowledge that shares information on this forum, much of which is applicable to house systems. This thread is about a house electrical system, so it applies. If he was asking about something related to the Ford 450 chassis, then that's a different issue, and obviously not related to this board. For that, Jim should visit one of the many RV boards, which I'm sure he's got the skills to find and utilize. I would think that in reality, you'd be interested to see what Jim finally ended up doing with his rig, how he's built it "his way" for his usage, just like you've been building your 4905 "your way", especially considering all the trials and tribulations he went thru. Even if it isn't a "real bus". . . FWIW, RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| gusc Rating: N/A |
Jim, Rather than spend $600 for your computer why not get a battery backup for less than 1/3 the price which would also protect your computer in case of any RV electrical problems? | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
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Jim: I have to agree that the advertised claims of the MX60 make it impressive. I shall await your results from "Real World" performance. As for the Trace C30, as I have said, I suspect it. Problem is, nobody supposedly in the know can pinpoint that as the problem, including Trace themselves. It is not in my nature to just go changing parts without knowing what the problem is. When the day comes that someone can say and demonstrate where the problem is, I will correct it; until then I just ponder the problem and run the generator Not wanting to let u completely off the hook, I would have to compare your generator w/my solar contoller, even if it were a NEW and not Rebuilt engine. If u have ever rebuilt Onan engines you would put them in the class of Briggs & Stratton, with the exception of their long obsolete cast iron engines. | ||
| Robert Wood (Bobwoodsocal)
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Hi Jim in Cali, you must really like your peace and quiet. $3565.64 so you don't have to run your recently rebuilt Onan a couple hours a day with the 125A charger on the inverter you plan to buy. And 2 inverters? You must have a helluva lot of computer equipment to run, if you need an extra 1.1 KW. Do you think the Outback is not up to the task? If not why spend so much on it? Am I missing something? I'm not going to get into the different voltages, it is my understanding that 24V in, 12V out is great when the photocells are not in full sun. This is the nice thing about the MPPT controllers, among others, but they are not a panacea. They do help with getting the most out of your panels. Do you plan to park in full sun all the time? (I like to park under trees, when I can...) And this confuses me: ~snip~ I'm a wee bit concerned about the matchup between panel wattage (680) and battery amp/hrs (845)... Matchup? Please explain! You don't have to match up your array (wattage) to your battery (AH), except to figure your usage, this really confused me... BTW, nice battery choice. The HUP is a bad ass, perhaps a bit overkill though, you think??? Hey Jim, I am not trying to rain on your parade... and I am all for clean, quiet power! Matter of fact I have a small off grid cabin up in AZ (300 days of sun/year) where I use solar power. It was a small testbed for me. If I hit the lottery I will have an acre of panels with trackers. But alas, no winning number yet... (Until then I can't wait to hook up to the grid!) That being said, I hope it all works out for you, and you are ecstatically happy. You picked a great source at http://thesolar.biz , the Duffy's are some great folks, and really know their stuff. Have you consulted with them and explained what you want to do? I will shut up now, I am too confused to continue. Really hope it works out for you. Best of luck Jim, Bob | ||
| Robert Wood (Bobwoodsocal)
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Wow, Brian, RJ, James and Gus posted while I was writing. Quick keys, fellas! Bob ( Going back to read what they said). | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
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Jim - if you post a pic of your rig I'm sure some one will photo shop a bus front end on it for you - hope Ian doesn't revoke your membership - you know how expensive the 'dues' are here at BNO - and I believe the policy is "no rebates on prepaid membership fees" - Niles ***Hope I didn't give Ian any ideas | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
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It is NOT stick and staple. It's a smaller older truck conversion on a commercial chassis built along the same tube steel frame and riveted aluminum skin lines as a Showhauler, Renegade or similar, except riveted like those used to be instead of the newest Sikaflex or whatever "megaglues". It's got as many rivets as a 4104 and they're all in very good shape . The shop in Sacramento that built 50 of these isn't in this business any more but his employees scattered across the modern "truck conversion" industry. It's very clearly a sort of "missing link" between RVs and the Class8 conversions . As it was apparantly the first "Hansen Hauler" and probably the only one not built on a GMC Topkick frame, I actually dig how ridiculously rare it is :D. I assure you, if you ever see it, complete with garage being built up where the rear race-car-hauler deck was, washer-dryer going in, all-steel frame and similar heavy-duty-grade-everything, you won't dismiss it as a stick'n'staple. (Hell, the 5sp manual and clutch would be your first clue it's WAY abnormal .) The only wood in it is the solid oak cabinetry in mint shape for an '88. -------------- Back to business: Gusc: a good battery backup system that could drive two computers, multiple external hard disks, a *big* inkjet scanner/printer combo and a Motosat dish setup would run a lot more than the $600 for the Exeltech 1100 inverter. I worked in IT for over 15 years. The battery backup for all that would also weigh MUCH more because it would have it's own decent size battery pack. The big house battery and inverter ARE the equivelent in all ways of a battery backup system. The 1100 inverter will be isolated from all other 110v wiring in the rig; the 110v outlets already in the walls will come off the big Outback inverter. The Outback does NOT allow funky spikes or weirdness to flow back up the 12v input from the 110v output...it stops that cold. Anything funky that does make it to the 12v line by some disorder would get stopped by the smaller but equally high quality Exeltech mounted inside in the computer room. So the computers, printer and Motosat end up on their own very well isolated circuit. That's why there's two inverters. | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
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Robert Wood: some aspects of the dual inverters I already explained. It's a lot more about "isolation" between "dirty loads" (A/C, washer/dryer, etc.) than power needs. Look, I'm spending around $4k on the Motosat alone, giving it clean power I *know* is good is just...peace of mind. As to the overall goals: I need to be able to operate in urban areas doing political stuff...like copying public records data on my own copier/scanner in the parking lot of a county elections office or sheriff's office or something. Or using the Motosat for a (secured!) WiFi gateway parked outside a public meeting. A genset would be a major negative . I realize the Onan is a weak point. Sigh. It IS in good shape now. I'll live with it a while, see how it goes. Yamaha is threatening to ship a "Honda EU2000i killer" genset soon - specs look interesting, they set it at 2400watts continuous, 3000 peak, dead quiet, variable speed w/ inverter, low gas use, just enough power to feed an AC unit and put a little charge on a battery, or do straight battery charging. While a nice unit, the 1700watt Honda is really a stupid size, it's JUST small enough that running A/Cs is annoying but barely doable if you've got NOTHING else going on. ----------- The "battery amps to panel watts 1:1 ratio" is a good rule of thumb for getting strong solar charging going. Depends on other factors though, esp. usage. I went with the HUP because the number of cells to deal with for the power is as low as it gets and I *know* it won't give me grief for a very, very long time. | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
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I believe Yamaha now has a 3kw inverter model on the market. If u want to stay with gas and air cooled, IMHO it is a better unit than the Honda. It is rated a few db less than comparable Hondas and it runs at less rpm across the entire output range. I have a 1kw Yamaha that is quieter than the 1kw Honda at or near full load. Mitsubishi is another make that u may want to consider if the time ever comes to replace that screaming, rattling, dirty-burning Onan. | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
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Well one rumored thing about the 2.4k Yamaha (not shipping yet) is that it can run in a bay with minimal venting, because it's basically a 3kw model "de-tuned some". Otherwise, yeah, I've heard good things re: the Yamaha 3kw and the Suzuki/Robins in that class are supposed to be good stuff too. IF it pans out as claimed, it might be the hot ticket. In any case, I'll use the Onan a while to evaluate everything else that's going on. The Trimetric should be able to tell me how much genset power I'm really netting out of the 4kw; one of the points I'm not clear on right now is whether or not the Onan can deliver the whole "120amps @ 12v" of charge current that the Outback inverter is capable of feeding the inverter. I'll be very interested to see if there's a charge rate difference between feeding the Outback with a 30amp shore cord and the Onan. It occurs to me that if I use the Onan for nothing but the initial morning battery charge for an hour or so before the panels kick in, I can run it "balls out" or close to it and actually use the whole 3600rpm. If that's the case, my efficiency might not suck too terribly. I suspects it's in "less than peak load use" that a 3600rpm genset really falls flat on it's face on the poolhall floor and passes out drunk. | ||
| James Maxwell (Jmaxwell)
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Damn Jim, hope u don't get up to early! That Onan is constant speed and runs 3600 all the time; the sheet metal shrouding doesn't really start to rattle until about 1/2 load so please try to keep the load down on it until after 8am. | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
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Heh. Well that's with REMOTE boondocking . I've run the Onan under as much load as I can - overhead A/C plus the electric hot water heater which is ballpark maybe 1500w(?). The noise isn't...actually that bad. On this rig the underfloor bays are about 3ft deep along each side (LOTS of bays, like no "ClassC" I've ever heard of!) and in the gap between you have the driveshaft (puller of course), the main engine exhaust tube and they stuck the genset muffler in there too. That really seems to help a lot with noise issues, esp. as all those cargo bays and bay doors are heavy galvanized steel (NO rust). Aluminum skins start from about floor level and go up. That aside, one advantage of the mega battery is I can probably skip a day or even more with some conservation if I have to (and the Trimetric will let me monitor the situation). But yeah, you're right. Ultimately I'm probably going to need to switch gensets. ---------------- One thing driving the monster battery: you can't upgrade it later unless it's done very quickly. The battery bank is only as good as it's weakest link, can't mix old with new. But y'all mostly knew that . | ||
| Craig (Ceieio)
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642 pounds of batteries? I refuse to have a battery bank that weighs as much as I do... uh well never mind. :-) | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
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Onan 4kw is about 33 amps @ 120 volts You might get more but that is very close to the limit of the engine horsepower and gen head. Surges and overloads will cause the loss of those little $400 controller boards. (est$) BTDT.... | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
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So...the amps @ 12v would be? If I understand this right, to get the same power in 12v DC you move the amps decimal place over one which is...330amp? The Outback inverter/charger charges 120amp at 12v DC, which is OK. If these numbers are right, then...hey, I can probably run the overhead A/C drawing about 15 - 20amp once startup is done and then have the rest left over for the Outback running at it's max or reasonably close to it. Not half shabby. It would also explain why 4kw is so popular in gensets where 30amp and solo A/C is the norm... BUT before making any genset-related decisions, I'm going to monitor what I've got with the Trimetric for a while. That'll tell the real-world tale. | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
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AC Input Current (adjustable limits) 60 amps max AC Input Voltage Range (adjustable limits) 90-140 v.a.c. The Outback specs on A.C. Input. So I would expect that the 125 amp charger output would be limited by the amount of A.C. Input...? Lets say you have 30 amps Input then the d.c. output technically would be 1/2 of the maximum rated 125 amps listed as the charger output. My experience with these programmable chargers is that if you tell it that you have more input power the charger output will go up. In the Xantrex and Heart units if you set power share to use less power than you are feeding it the charger will not output its maximum but a % of the input based on what is available for it. I think my Vanner does the same thing.... | ||
| Wayne Buttress (Eagleman)
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Brian, There is a number of us who haven't completed our bus conversions yet that travel in "stick and staple rigs" . You seem to have a chip on your shoulder. Some of your comments are rude. | ||
| Jim (Jim_in_california)
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Or put it another way: There are two groups of "rebels against the RV industry status quo". One is the busnuts. The other is the truck conversion people working off of industrial freight chassis and drivetrains with all-metal living spaces above that. The two are natural allies that can learn from each other without tossing terms like "stick'n'staples" around. The real enemy is the "Elkhart Cartel" and those people building buses or truck conversions and transitioning away from all that are still part of the "rebellion". (As an aside, watching George fix/rebuilt standard RVs in his shop has given me new appreciation for BOTH paths of rebellion . Dear GOD there's some crap on the road...not all of it is bad stuff but some is just Godawful in both design and execution.) | ||
| Brian (Bigbusguy)
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Wayne and RJ, I was mostly reffering to taking a pick uptruck camper to a bus rally. He whould never get into a FMCA rally with it. Yes I do under stand some here are not in buses yet but most here are wanting to get a bus and not go the other way like he did. Maybe you should read his first reply . And see who is rude. Yes every one tryed to help him with his bus ideas and some of the posts just went on and on and on about some stupid ideas . I would love to hear about how over loaded and how it gets 5 mpg whan he loads 2 tons of batts and inverters and all the paint for making protest signs. Ok I was wrong it not a stick n staple its a pickup truck camper Ian can run this board any way he wants I just thought it was about BUS conversions . SO I guess I was wrong. And no I dont have a chip on my shoulder. Right now most stickn staples are nicer then my bus. And I dont see what I said was rude just making a point. I just call it like I see it and not suger coat it. Im sure Jim could run a good board maybe he can start one for others with what ever he calls his camper pick up truck. Brian 4905 BUS Vancouver WA( Amtrack Depo) | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
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Whoosh! |