| Author | Message | ||
| Jerry Liebler (Jerry_liebler)
Rating: N/A |
I finally decided on an Avanti 653 sst refrigerator. It is 6.3 cu ft of which 1.7 is freezer. This model is among the lowest energy users (excluding Sunfrost), it's rated usage is 254KWh/year. I set it in my 'family room' dialed the cold control to 3 (about midway) and ran it for 24 hours without opening the door & it used .62kwh. I fabricated a 'mounting flange' out of 3/4" maple and glued it on just behind the door (Gorilla glue). I also made and added 2 plywood legs under the sides, raising the bottom to 6 1/2" above the floor. Then I added 3 layers of 1/2" 'Rmax' foam insulation board (R 7.2/in.) to the sides, back(moved the coils back 1 1/2") and very bottom, 5 layers to the top and one layer above and in front of the compressor. I also moved the compressor back about 1 1/2". After adding the insulation I ran it again for 24 hours in the sama room and leaving the door closed with the same cold control setting. It used .48KWH Summary rated 254KWh/yr. My test as recieved 226KWh/yr. After adding insulation 175KWh/yr. This model is self defrosting in the refrigerator section and I suspect that may be eating some energy. But adding the insulation did result in a 20% reduction in energy use which in my case adds a day to the battery life. Note to Fast Fred: With inverter losses I'll average under 1.9 amps from 12 volts, that's better than the comparably sized Novacool or Indotherm marine units and a $1000+ saving. Regards Jerry 4107 1120 | ||
| Don/TX
Rating: N/A |
Way to go Jerry, thanks for sharing that. I had always wanted to do just that, but the original useage was so small I never could get around to it. I really feel what you did is the really best way to go. If you had spent lots more for the sunfrost for instance, you would find you did not have much space inside either. | ||
| Ron Frazier (Ron_4104)
Rating: N/A |
I'm a little confused, but at my age I'm thinking maybe thats kind of normal. How do you save $1000.00 with a refrigerator that runs on 110 volts thru an inverter? Do they throw in a $1500.00 inverter free? I'm sure you made the right choice for you Jerry, but the next guy could make the right choice for him by using propane or DC. I think it's great we have all the choices. | ||
| Jerry Liebler (Jerry_liebler)
Rating: N/A |
Ron, I already had the inverter, to run the microwave, the air conditioners etc. But even if I had to get a dedicated inverter for the refrigerator it could be quite small as the refrigerator only draws 150 watts peak, measured with the light on and compressor just started so a 300 watt sine wave inverter would easily handle it. I just saw a 'Power Bright' 300 watt pure sine inverter on Ebay, it went for $76 + $12 shipping. Propane is also much more costly, much less tolerant of off levelness requires great care in installation particularly venting and just doesn't cool as well especially in hot weather. If one follows the manufacturer's directions with a propane frige in an RV, it's not cooling while driving because the propane's supposed to be turned off while driving. There are many RV fires due to propane refrigerators. I opted for electric because I like ice cream that's not melted while I drive 8 or more hours in a day. So my quest was for some 'boondocking' time, the area where propane has a huge advantage. Regards Jerry 4107 1120 | ||
| Mike (Busone)
Rating: N/A |
Thanks for the info Jerry, very helpful. Just a thought, do you think a small computer fan blowing over the condenser coil would help any? | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
"There are many RV fires due to propane refrigerators." If there were the media would be all over it. RV's do burn , but the last one I actually heard of was from an Electric heater. Getting down to 175KW a year geting you down to about half KW a day is great! With a house set of 200A , 100 of which is useable you will have 2 quiet days. Assuming you use oil lamps and a battery radio. My guess is you will be opting for 400 or more amps , so a 3 day weekend will work with most toys , but no furnace operation. 3 silent days is GREAT! for an electric coach. Congrats! FAST FRED | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
Rating: N/A |
Fires caused by RV propane...Not very likely. Inverter fires, Generator fires, Methane fires in the bathrooms(Oh???) now that's a different story  As for propane not cooling while in motion? I heard that old wives tale but never could prove it.(a bad installation is usually the culprit) Most Fridges have a 12 volt (hold cool) option that turns on a 12 volt heater when the ignition is on and engine running. If its hooked up. Takes about 20 amps. The only problem I ever had was the cost to run a propane fridge, My Dometic RM2801 used 1lb a day and it kept stuff frozen hard in the freezer. Many of the newer fridges use a 12 volt compressor in the high end lines and were developed partially due to the Marine needs and migrated to the RV's, Most will run on a 100 watt solar panel system with a 200 a/hr battery quite well. My current apartment 8 cu.ft size 110 volt unit with the inverter and 800 a/hrs of battery will run 3 days. Not too efficient. I think I will be going to a 12 volt unit soon. Ahh.. Well.. So much fun..... | ||
| Ed Jewett (Kristinsgrandpa)
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Dr.Dave, Inverter fire? There should never be one since the NEC plainly states in Art.551.20 (B) paragraph 2 " All converters and transformers shall be listed for use in recreational vehicles and designed or equipped to provide over-temperature protection." That is why there is an Article 551. Ed Jewett | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
"Inverter fire? There should never be one since the NEC plainly states in Art.551.20 (B) paragraph 2 " BWAAAAAaahahahahaaaaa WHOOOPH... HAR HAR! That was great, Ed! | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
Rating: N/A |
Holy Smokin Battery Cables Batman!! I always liked the trick of using FAST acting fuses to protect FASTER acting transistors. Lets see..Hmmm.(in theoretical figures) A battery costs $65.00 A fuse holder for each battery costs $22.00 Each Fuse (300 or 400 amp) to fit the holder costs $51.00 Heavy duty battery cable @ 2.50 a foot. Figure at least 4 batteries, 4 fuses, 4 holders 8 cables. Hook that all to a $1,800 Inverter. Which do you think is going to melt down first and make a lot of smoke and sparks? It will be the most expensive (fusable) part of the system.....The part with all those high current high power transistors every time! Only after the meltdown has happened internally will the fuses on the batteries decide to blow...Maybe! NEC is nice, Building everything to code or by the book is nice also. But the reality is that although it looks good on paper it doesn't necessarily happen that way in real life. After over 35 years in Electronics I have seen some really amazing things happen with high current power supply systems. None were pretty or smelled very good either! | ||
| kevin schooler (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Rating: N/A |
david: http://teslamania.delete.org/frames/mpg/500kV_Switch.mpg respect -dd | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
Rating: N/A |
I second that Dave... sounds like you and I spent the same amount of time doing roughly the same thing! hee hee Code is great but it's all words. Even in a perfect world where it is followed to the letter, STUFF happens. Like mice eating insulation off of big fat wires...poof...just one out of many I've experienced... Jerry, however, I totally agree with others in disagreeing with you. My fridge is propane. It's vented thru the roof with a single Nicro-Fico solar powered vent, according to a suggestion Fast Fred gave us 5 years ago (Thanks you FF!!) Let me address your statements with my experiences from the last four years of using it: (1)"Propane is also much more costly" How do you figure this? Well, maybe the original fridge is more costly but operating it, as compared to battery and inverter costs, is minimal. In terms of actual fuel cost, where I might use a gallon of propane, you'll use 2-3 gallons of gas to run the genset to charge the batteries to power the inverter to run the fridge. In terms of actual efficiency, the costs of not having all those added inefficiencies in the power-stream makes propane quite effective. I will give you this: If you can afford a bus, you can afford to power a fridge. Either way, the difference between the two for a week's use is loads less than ten miles worth of diesel fuel spent in "getting there"... (2) "much less tolerant of off levelness" Well, yes, a propane fridge is fairly intolarent of levelness. But the wife's intolerance of poor levelness far outweighs the fridge. If the bus is not flat enough to make the fridge happy, you can't cook eggs on the griddle, you can't sleep very well, virtually everyting you set down rolls off whatever you just set it on, and you can't put up with the griping. It's a no brainer. Leveling the bus is a given, the fridge just goes along for the ride... (3) "requires great care in installation particularly venting.." Installation and venting a propane fridge is no more trouble than bolting in a compressor fridge is, save the addition of cutting a couple holes for air to come in and go out of. With the Nicro fan, it's again a no brainer- doesn't even take big holes! Even if you don't use a vent fan system, following instructions and doing it the "factory" way is also a no brainer, or you woudn't see 95% of the RV's out there with the silly things. (4) "and just doesn't cool as well especially in hot weather." Total BS. You've obviously never used one. I take my bus to Burning Man, which is out in the middle of hell's 1000 acres outside of Reno, in the middle of August where it's 115 in the shade. The biggest problem I've had with my fridge vs cooling, is I had to turn it down to 3 so it doesn't freeze my milk. No, these things work WELL, hot weather not withstanding. (5) "If one follows the manufacturer's directions with a propane frige in an RV, it's not cooling while driving because the propane's supposed to be turned off while driving." Well Darn. I guess I'm breaking the rules. My fridge stays on as does the propane tank, when I drive. I have separate valves for every other appliance though, and they go off when I drive. As long as you do the work properly (and wisely), propane running while the bus is running is fine. ...That may be difficult for some.... (6) "There are many RV fires due to propane refrigerators." Give me "many" examples, please!!! Heck, please document even one that is refrigerator specific... I've spent years in RV junkyards finding goodies for the two busses I've put together. About 80% of the RV's that were there had burned. Virtually every fire had started in the engine compartment...I never saw one that started in a propane fridge. I'm sure that there are a few, but not many. (7) I opted for electric because I like ice cream that's not melted while I drive 8 or more hours in a day." That's why they make 3-way propane units that have 12 volt heaters for driving, 120 volt heaters for shore-sitting, and propane for the boonies. (8)"So my quest was for some 'boondocking' time, the area where propane has a huge advantage." You certainly got that point right!! ................. All in all, there is ONLY one advantage to a compressor-driven fridge, that is the leveling thing. Well, maybe compressor driven fridges have a bit more recovery capacity. And I'm NOT trying to talk you out of doing it "your way", all I'm doing here is pointing out to others that most of your arguments against propane fridges are myth. | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
Rating: N/A |
Kevin, I got one of those mounted in my chest! I just hope that it never has to fire that charge, It's gonna hurt for sure. It may save my life but just thinking about that makes me cringe....:0 | ||
| Don/TX
Rating: N/A |
The leveling thing may have been superseded as well Gary, the last three way I bought a couple of years ago, Norcold as I recall, said that if you can walk in the vehicle, it is level enough for the fridge to work properly. | ||
| Jerry Liebler (Jerry_liebler)
Rating: N/A |
Gary, No not myth based on experience with a comercially built 'stick and staple' I owned for a few years before I decided I really wanted a bus. It had a 3 way Dometic refrigerator installed by it's builder. In hot (90+ degree weather) the ice cream would melt on an 8 hour drive even though the 12 volt heater was working and drawing 20 amps. Then there was the time I parked for 2 hours while we walked around Mt. Rushmore, the only available parking spot was on at least a 15 degree slope. It quit cooling but did recover a couple of days later but I sure bought a bunch of ice in the mean time. There was a Prevost conversion on Ebay about a week ago that was damaged by a refrigerator fire. As to operational costs my house batterys are charged while driving or when I'm plugged in. If I leave it plugged in at home, the tag on the refrigerator says it costs $21/year to operate. The $ 600+ difference in initial cost vs propane pays for a bunch of house batterys. Regards Jerry 4107 1120 | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
Rating: N/A |
Ah. Stick and Staple! Bad design in the first place... good on you for going to a "real" bus!! One thing I didn't mention, perhaps a big factor, is that as they come, many (most)propane fridges don't have enough insulation. Pretty much is the same for compressor fridges. Many busnuts including myself, recommend that when you do the install, glue an inch (at least) of foam insulation on all sides of the fridge, and the top too. The cheap stuff from Home Depot with the silver foil faces is quite enough. That makes worlds of difference, and the stick-n-staple folks would never bother to do that. AS you've so well proved Jerry, it could easliy have made the difference between melted ice-cream and happy lickings at Mt. Rushmore. FIRES I can see the possibility of a fire starting in a propane fridge IF it is not maintained. The flame has a little "chimney" which will, after 3-4 years, soot up to the point it closes. If that happens, the flame can get outside the metal. Then if you're unlucky enough to have had a squirrel make a nest back there for the winter, poof it goes. This happens, but with a little bit of "checking before lighting" for the season, it can easily be avoided. Anyway, you sound like you have a plan Jerry, and I'm sure it will work fine. As for bus fires in general, I'd like to repost this for those new to the board that havn't seen it already. It's an eye opener... http://www.heartmagic.com/00BusFires.pdf Granted the busses in this report don't have refrigerators. But it's interesting that virtually every fire was caused by a flamable substance leak, an electrical failure (so much for you "code/fuse" touters - these are extremely inspected commercially manufactured busses, supposedly made more-than-correctly) or brakes.... | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
Codes are grand RV or marine , but many folks don't bother. Recently went to troubble shoot a diesel boat with lot$ of goodies. One was a 2000W inverter that was hooked up with #4 wire and no fuse or CB. It always amazes me that folks will spend the big bucks for nice equippment , and refuse to follow Da Book from the folks that created it for the install. Propane fridges , without the factory vent kit, inverters and basement air cond , with no returns seem to top the list. FAST FRED | ||
| busboy Rating: N/A |
For those of us that missed it 5 years ago .. what is the Nicro-Fico vent setup? Thanks. | ||
| t gojenola
Rating: N/A |
http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/233/2518.html?1028507965 tg | ||
| mikeEMC
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Jerry thats great. I took out the dometic battery eating ref. and dumped it and put in 2 Franklin Chef 6.1 refs in total draw is .9 amp amd run them on solar power when i need to. and after 3 years i'm still frezzing lol. No side wall clearince and just a top vent inside the coach,no roof vent. no hassel now. | ||
| mikeEMC
Rating: N/A |
Oh i forgot to mention the fridges are 400 series 110 volt models with a small 1500 watt converter to serve both of them . The solar pannel is ICP 15 watt. I.ve gone 24 hrs frozen have never let them to the melt point 95* with air condition on. air off parked (thats the most) still frozen. got them from Lowes. | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
"total draw is .9 amp " If that is .9amp of 120v , with the inverter loss it would come out to 10A of 12V for the inverter. Thats 240A a day !!! even on a less efficent 50% run cycle that's still 120A. a 15W pannel would be hard pressed , without relocating to a planet with 100 hours of daily sunlight! FAST FRED | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
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Not only that, Franklin Chef's site doesn't show any such animal. Maybe they quit making them; google doesn't seem to be able to find them, either. For what it's worth. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska | ||
| mikeEMC Rating: N/A |
ok ..got out the mannul the ref's are FCD-400 siries, and power requirements are 110V @ .9 amp...they are 4.1 cuft excuse me not 6 as i oraganily looked at and have one 6cuft still in the box at the house it is made by Harrier. Fred i ran one on the pannel and 8d battery for a week and it seem to do well i started the coach up after that. i'm going to do somemore detailed test with a 24 hr amp recorder and see what that says in the cycleing times. it would be interesting to see what realy happening on the electrical usage |