| Author | Message | ||
| Jason SPrinkle (Jsprinkle)
Rating: N/A |
Any help you can give me is welcomed. I am building a motor coach of my own. The base is a 40’ silver eagle bus. I have a few questions and would like your advice and observations on them. I am considering using a regular toilet; Based on the limited use I think the system would work fine. My concern is how all of these RV’rs can be wrong, what am I missing. Payload is so high on this unit I do not think water weight will be an issue. I am interested in wiring, plumbing and component suggestions you may have. What are the regulations concerning furniture and seat belts in an RV? I see newer high end coaches with general furniture loose on the deck. Here is my current line of thinking OTR power 3000 Watt inverter servicing the central air, heat, Microwave, lighting and entertainment only while in transit. Ac line power would be servicing the above, on an auto switch plus additional instant water heaters and additional electric heat. Batteries, I have no clue Holding tanks Fresh water 36 gallon Grey, 36 gallon Black, 36 Gallon, With Manual valve to divert grey into Black as needed, I am also thinking of designing a wash through system where by the black can be emptied and the grey is emptied through the black to clean it out. Regular commercial fridge, any thoughts? I am also looking for an off the shelf replacement for an eagle 01 Coach door. | ||
| morgan Clough (Mclough777)
Rating: N/A |
just my opion. 36 gallons of fresh water is not nearly enough.i have 100 on my bus and that will last about a 4-5 days. the grey is ok IF you plan on trickling the shower water/sink water on ground. black again would only last us about 4-5 days. | ||
| Jon W. Rating: N/A |
Jason, I hope this doesn't set off a battle because I have a store bought conversion. The professionally converted shells have been refined so much over the years they are way beyond anything I would want to try to do as an individual, but if you can I would urge you look hard and close at those and steal their ideas. That recommendation is probably akin to talking against motherhood and the flag, but the current iterations are the result of constant improvements and refinements of the designs. Except for the cabinetry and walls these things are nothing more than a bunch of parts bolted together and you can buy the same toilets, inverters and other components. Rather than learning by trial and error, which is exactly what the converters have done, you can start out copying their best ideas. If your Eagle has bus AC, keep it. If not, make sure you have a large alternator, a lot of battery power and inverters capable of powering your AC components plus your AC units, allowing enough charging capability to maintain your battery charge. Lastly, the more water and holding tank capacity, the better. We have about 140 gallons and without any serious attempts to conserve we can stretch it to serve us for a week. If you are putting a lot of money and effort converting your coach, why would you want to live like you are in a tent? Live large and love it. | ||
| David Dulmage (Daved)
Rating: N/A |
I would recommend at least 75 gal fresh water and at least 100 gal black and grey water holding capacity. More would be better. As for RV type toilets, these work very well, take up less space than typical residential flush toilets and significantly conserve water. If you plan to go all electric, 3,000W will likely not be adequate for all the appliances you plan to power. A lot can happen in a panic manouevre, sudden stop or accident. I wouldn't be comfortable with loose furnture while I was travelling. FWIW Dave Dulmage (MC-8) | ||
| Craig (Ceieio)
Rating: N/A |
Jason - the house style toilet will use more water, and the tank top will rattle going down the road. Some of the low profile ones won't have the rattle problem, but will still likely use a lot of water. Also, the house toilets depend on a P trap to keep odors from coming back up into the room. The two problems with that are the extra room that the trap takes in a coach, and the possibility of vacuum created by going down the road that will pull the water down the drain which will: 1) add stink, 2) reduce fresh water (each occurrence), and 3) add to the black tank for no good reason. I have 80 gallons of fresh on board and think that 100 to 120 would be better, although we make due. A flat or two of bottled water for drinking, and the fresh tank for household needs gets us down the road OK, with thought. For me, seat belts are a must, and loose objects that can become projectiles are not a good idea. Strap the TV down, stow and loose living items, and of course, leave the seats bolted down, before moving the coach. :-) I am not sure that 3000 watts will float the boat on the AC. My bus has a twinkie 2500W inverter and it won't start the front AC. It may be that my inverter is long in the tooth, as it does other peculiar things at times, so continue to ask around on that one. I guess all of the drivel I wrote is based upon my usage assumptions for you bus, and thus is likely invalid! We use ours for weekend getaways to ride our dirt bikes, do a little touring and things of the like. We do not live aboard, and we are not always in a place where we can tether to the pole for power, water, etc. If you move less frequently, are docked most of the time when you use the bus, then what you have outlined may work fine for you. The right answer for you lies in how you see yourself using the bus, with some allowance for the possibility that you make change your mind some when you start tooling around in the bus. Craig - MC7 Oregon | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
snip "If your Eagle has bus AC, keep it. If not, make sure you have a large alternator, a lot of battery power and inverters capable of powering your AC components plus your AC units, allowing enough charging capability to maintain your battery charge." I have to strongly disagree with the above advice. Over the Road A/C is notoriously expensive, and almost impossible, to maintain. Possibly has never been converted to the newer required freon. It is only any benefit while travelling down the highway. Still have to have genset or shore cord and roof airs for camping. Takes up a large amount of space etc. etc. etc. Very few retain it and of those that have I have seen many posts of these persons who wish they had removed it. Before worrying about larger alternator, batteries, inverter, make sure the first thing you get is a genset. The other items come later. Minimum 140 gallon fresh water, 160 gallons black/gray, more is better. Richard | ||
| R.J.(Bob) Evans (Bobofthenorth)
Rating: N/A |
No particular order - stuff that I see in our coach (which was professionally converted) that could have been done better: - put the batteries next to the inverter - make sure the coach batteries are next to the starter - soundproof whatever you use for a genny - design your holding tanks and water systems for future service - ie. easy access to all fittings and components You have already had lots of advice about tank size - they are right - more is better. | ||
| Jon W. Rating: N/A |
Richard disagrees and listed his objections to my suggestion about bus AC. I think he has some valid concerns, but let me offer some points to consider. Unless the bus AC system has been compromised by physical damage it is likely the only area you will really need to maintain is the large compressor. If you go to a typical bus or refrigerated trailer service facility for service it will get expensive, but a qualified AC technician familiar with these can pop the clutch off, replace the seal after isolating the compressor from the balance of the system and evacuate the compressor and recharge it with a few cans of freon in about two hours. If the system is sound the R12 typically installed will work great. If it leaks the leaks need to be sealed or repaired and with an oil change R134A can be used. Yes you should replace the expansion valve, all seals and hoses, but even if you do not do that the system will do a good job of cooling. Less than the cost of a tank of fuel you can have a bus AC system up and running unless it has serious problems like an unrepairable compressor. When you run house AC through an inverter you are taking power that could otherwise be used to recharge your batteries. If you do not opt for bus air I think a better alternative would be to run a generator to run the AC units. I will never go without bus AC (and I am not talking about driver's air, but whole bus AC) because it has the capacity to cool in even the hottest environment and despite the room it takes I have more than ample space in the belly of my coach, including room for 4 #8 batteries, 4 cruise air AC house units, a full bay width Jenn Air, my tool box, 140 gallons of water and holding tank, 298 gallons of fuel, my bicycles, ladder and a whole bunch of other junk. The key is planning and layout. Obviously opinions are worth exactly what you paid for them, so take mine for what they are worth. | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
Points well made, Jon. You indicate you have four Cruise Aire A/C units, but no mention of a genset. Will the cruise Aires not keep the coach cool in hot weather while travelling? or can you not even run them while on the road? Just curious since you seem to be in the minority of converters recommending retaining bus air. Richard | ||
| Jon W. Rating: N/A |
Richard, Obviously a senior moment. 20 KW genset by Kohler. I can run all Curise Airs while running down the road from the genset, but with the bus AC life is really simple. The Cruise Airs will definitely cool the coach, but one fact overlooked by the converters is that running down the road over sun baked pavement means the condenser unit intake air temperature is going to sometimes hit 150 in the south or southwest. At those temperatures the units will shut down. That is one benefit of roof airs, but since they are made as cheaply as possible I have a concern about their life span. I think the aversion to bus air is driven by converters that sell the concept of more space. Then they go further and save more space by eliminating the Cruise Airs and go to roof airs. For pure economics if I were building a coach I would trot on down to Camping world and get three or four AC roof air units and bolt them on the roof and I would have the cheapest solution to providing AC. And I would have more bay space. If I did not want to run a genset I would get a pair of 4000 watt inverters and use at least 6 #8 batteries and be able to run at least two units and have power left over for the refrigerator and some other stuff. But a bus conversion is all about comfort and living large so the lazy capitalist that I am says why not just push one button to turn on the bus AC, rather than messing around with the genset and multiple AC units. A lot of the high end conversions without bus AC go from shore power to shore power so keeping the batteries charged while running down the road isn't a concern, and most of the high end owners think dry camping is spending the night without a cocktail. If my awe and respect for the efforts of the converters like Liberty and others shows through it is because the converters have done such a great job I wonder why folks ignore their solutions and keep trying to invent the wheel. | ||
| Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A |
There were some comments made on house toilets that aren't true, since I have one in my bus I can tell you how they work in a bus conversion-- The house toilet P trap is built into the toilet, you will never lose the water seal unless all the water evaporates or you flip the bus over. You will not get black tank smells from the toilet, unlike RV toilets with bad seals or while open for flushing. The tops may or may not rattle, and if it does, that is a simple fix. The one point that cannot be disputed is that they use more water than an RV toilet. In this case you treat the toilet like a home with a small septic system-- you don't flush every time. And if you are at a campsite with full hookups you just dump more often, which brings out another plus-- black tanks don't smell as bad when you have a house toilet and lots of water! Also, I can go a week on my water capacity with 2 people --Geoff '82 RTS AZ 110 gallons fresh 37 gallons black 74 gallons grey 8kW water cooled diesel genset that can run all three 1500 BTU roof airs/heat pumps --or-- Trace SW2512 inverter that runs the front air while driving. NO factory air Heat pumps or Webasto heating | ||
| Rob King Rating: N/A |
Hi Jason Let me make a suggestion here that I think will help get you started in the right direction. Try this link: http://www.winlockgaley.com There are several books here that explain much including one about converting an Eagle and even Eagle floor planning sheets. If you use the information in those books plus what you get from this board, I believe that your conversion could be very good. Rob 91 LeMirage Missouri | ||
| Craig (Ceieio)
Rating: N/A |
Geoff - I 'not true' may be too strong of language. I just watched the water get sucked down in my house with 65 mph winds outside. I think "may not be true" would better fit. It does happen, just maybe not to you yet, or ever. I have friends in severe weather country (Ames Ia, Houston Tx, and Big Pine Key Fl), that tell me that it is not uncommon to have the water pulled down by wind. Wth the Pacific Storms we have been having, I am seeing it at my house now too! FWIW Craig - MC7 Oregon | ||
| Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A |
I thought we were talking about bus conversions? --Geoff | ||
| Donald Lee Schwanke (Dontx)
Rating: N/A |
If you are getting confused with the bickering and differing opinions, the problem is that they are all right! YOU must decide what you are going to use your bus for first of all. I carried 120 gal of fresh around for thousands and thousands of miles, NEVER was it even down to 100 gal. Thirty would be more than enough if I built another one. House toilets and such work plenty well. For some reasons on these boards, we try sometimes too much to make bragging rights about boondocking abilities, but I rarely ever see buses boondocked. Mostly because of their size and your desires, the time on the road is very small, and the time in a park plugged in and hooked to a drain is very large. Your intended use may well differ from an "average" or "norm". I was guilty of paying too much attention to boondocking capabilities, and wound up with costly stuff I never used. | ||
| Jerry Liebler (Jerry_liebler)
Rating: N/A |
Jason, How are you going to use the bus? This matters a lot. What you've suggested might work if you always had full hook ups. But even a single night in a Wallmart could easily empty your fresh water supply with a 2 gallon per flush house toilet. Why not use a 'legal' RV toilet, especially since it'll use one tenth the water per flush. Also Why not carry much bigger tanks and reduce the number of drain and fill rituals. For example I have 190 gallons of fresh and 220 of waste. The size of your house battery and your choice of house refrigerator need to be worked out to allow for your longest time without generator or shore power. Chosing a smaller more energy efficient house refrigerator can save a lot of battery weight. For example I chose an Avanti 6.5 cu ft and added insulation to get an average power use of a bit under 20 watts (that's 175 kwh/yr in the units on the federally mandated tag). And with with 4 golf cart batteies this could run 5 days or with my 4 L16's it'll run 9. This is about 1/3 the power used by, or 3 times the battery use time of, most new small house refrigerators. If you'll be running AC off of an inverter it should be a true sine wave inverter or you'll dramatically shorten the life of the AC due to overheating the motors. Regards Jerry 4107 1120 | ||
| Jerry Liebler (Jerry_liebler)
Rating: N/A |
Jason, When figuring tank capacity remember there is some lost to air space at the top and the required vents and some lost because you can't get it out. Regards Jerry 4107 1120 | ||
| Craig (Ceieio)
Rating: N/A |
"I thought we were talking about bus conversions?" Sure, didn't mean to be oblique - 65 mph winds going over a vent stack, either via a house standing still with the wind going over it, or with the house (vent stack) moving through air (bus create the possibility for ventouri effect. This is how an airbrush works to draw paint out of a jar below the gun and out the needle. The paint container is at normal atmospheric pressure, not pressurized in an airbrush. I have a good book on it somewhere, the only reference I can find for you on a quick search is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbrush You might be able to find practical reference to the physics effect in a book on carburetors as well, as the same physics pull the gasoline from the float bowl into the carb throat.. If the wind stays constant at sufficient rate to create a venturi, the water is drawn up the vent stack and out. If there are gusts, water is pulled into the stack and some escapes into the air, but as the gusts pulse, some will also go down the sewer. This process can continue until the vacuum is broken, in this case, by evacuation of the water in the P Trap (which I forgot to mention, you are right about the trap - pre senior moment). I guess our household is dull, because we thought it was cool to watch! Craig - MC7 Oregon | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Rating: N/A |
Jason, I stressed alot over the fresh water and waste water issue. So when I pulled our camper I watched to see how we used our water. The camper has 40gal black, 30gal grey, and 45gal fresh, but we didn't boondock much. So when I converted the bus I went by that. We don't use that much fresh water while on the road. We used a "house" fridge, 2 roof airs, and Onan genset. I'm not an expert on bus air conditioning, but I have always heard that to evacuate and recharge the bus air can get expensive. So if that system ever springs a leak and you loose all that freon you will need to have some extra $$$ laying around. Bottom line is you should figure out how you plan on using your bus the most and build accordingly. On another note if you go with the Inverter to run the fridge you need to to listen to Jerry. He has done his homework on the subject and has it figured out. FWIW, Dale | ||
| Phil Dumpster2 Rating: N/A |
Your house has some major plumbing issues if a 65 mile per hour gust of wind is drawing water out of your toilet. I suggest you call a plumber and have them do a smoke test of your system to see where things may be plugged up, or where some things may have been omitted in the construction of your house. | ||
| Craig (Ceieio)
Rating: N/A |
Phil - thanks. I really don't know what the wind speed was. I used 65 mph was an example to illustrate relative motion of air over a stack. Wind was reported as 75 steady with 100 mph gusts on the coast; I am inland but on a mountian top and have not put up the weather station yet. I don't think the wind was that fast here but it was interesting to watch. The house is a lodge style (== snow roof pitch) and the wind was hitting the south side, which is a little over 140 feet in profile on that side. The peak of the roof is around three stories off the ground there, so the wind needs to work to go over the top of the house. The interesting thing is that the bathroom in question was on the north side about dead center in the house (a ways from each end, so wind whipping around the corner was not in play). I think the tall peak on the roof may have created a low pressure region itself over the northern roof (rather like an airfoil). You never can tell what the areodynamics are going to be, so I consider it a point to ponder. As always do it your way and I hope Jason is getting info that he will find useful in deciding what the right way for him is, as have we all. Best Regards, Craig - MC7 Oregon | ||
| coolbus Rating: N/A |
interesting scenario, Craig I live in Oregon too. We had wind gusts, similar to what you described, here on the coast. Our toilet bowles were almost EMPTY during that storm! Couldn't figure out why! Thanks for the explanation! My bathroom is on the north side of the house, with the storm winds from the south. Mark 'coolbus' | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Jason - Another opinion? With fuel at $2.40 per, it's nice to save by staying at the free-bee places between the stays at the more favorable places. We "boondocked" at Walmart, Sams, Target, Flying J, Beach Causeways, etc., for days between campgrounds. I think It's very important to hear/read all opinions and weigh them all carefully, before making a major decision regarding the building of a motorhome. Once the project's done, it'll take twice the effort to change what you've so carefully built in. Do it right the first time, if it's at all possible. Oh... and "overkill" isn't a bad thing. We "boondocked" in our driveway for a two-week period, when storms took out the power and water supplies. "I am considering using a regular toilet" The RV toilets are designed to be moved, rattled and rolled. They use very, very little water and are easy to maintain. You can easily add water thru it's opening, should the waste tank need more water.... or "stirring". You can't do that with a home toilet. Also, take note that many will say that all furniture must be secured to the floor/walls, because it's so easy to stop short or make a quick maneuver, and topple the furniture... but suggest that a toilet bowl full of water will not be displaced.. (really??) "Payload is so high on this unit I do not think water weight will be an issue. " The "payload" of wah-wah is around 8+ lbs per gallon. Figure 10 lbs per gallon to be safe. It all adds up, so be cautious, and realize that water weight -is- an issue. "What are the regulations concerning furniture and seat belts in an RV? I see newer high end coaches with general furniture loose on the deck. " The chairs, etc.., can be kept in check with bungee cords, or other suitable strapping. A seatbelt for the driver is in order, but if it's not there...? for passengers...?? It'd be the very absolute least of my concerns. You should never, ever, make any move so fast, that it can topple furniture. You can topple the bus as easy. "OTR power 3000 Watt inverter " 4kw at minimum. "instant water heaters and additional electric heat." In an RV, you turn the water off between soaping and washing. You do that to conserve water. With an "on demand" water heater, when it's not "on demand" it's cold. And it takes a second or three to get hot. Do you really want to shower that way? Electric heat's nice! What do you do when there's none available? "Holding tanks.... Fresh water 36 gallon ..... Grey, 36 gallon...." The Winnebago La'Sharro has bigger tanks, and that's a "Class C". You should have no less than 100 gal each: fresh, and waste/ "Regular commercial fridge, any thoughts? " Yeah. what are you going to do, when there's no electricity available? Listen... With the engine running, the inverter will supply enough for the fridge. Without the engine running, and no external power...? Do you really want to lose a fridge of food? How many batteries for how many appliances? I hated to think "propane", but the merits are there. Overkill; the over abundance of the variety of resources, is never, ever, a bad thing. It's better to look back and think that you could have saved a few bucks, than wish you spent the extra few. Think "versatile". | ||
| Geoff (Geoff)
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John-- you don't need to add water to the black tank if you have a household toilet, and if you did, all you would have to do is pour it in the toilet-- household toilets are self-leveling. And I will be the first one to say you are not going to displace the water in the toilet bowl when you are driving, much less the toilet that is bolted to the floor. But what do I know? --Geoff (Using a household toilet for the past four years and 30,000 miles) | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
I believe your going about the conversion process backwards. The stuff choosen for an RV is for a specific purpose . Not because its cheap , or you saw it in someother camper. What do you expect to DO with he camper??? Campgrounds all the time with an overnite or two not plugged in? Boondock 4 months every winter at the Slabs? The mix of power avilable , its frequency , and your desired endurance will detirmine what will work best for what YOU want to do. So far your choice of stuff would sugest you will be running a noisemaker 24/7 , when ever the coach engine is off. What are your camper requirements , need to have , nice to have? Your GOAL? And of course how thick is your billfold. EG an inverter 1500w can cost $200, a "better" (for very specific needs ) can cost $2000. You must specify what you see in your camping future. FAST FRED | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
Craig: Where I live the plumbing regulations require the main stack to be a dry vent off the main sewer line. Even if you have all kinds of venturi action on the top of the vent, it would have to suck all the air out of the entire sewer system. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
I've dumped our RV's waste tank, and the sink P trap was drained of it's water. I imagine the stench coming out of the toilet was due to it's overflow (also P trap) being emptied. (resolved by refilling the P traps) The waste drain pipe was/is much larger than the small thru the roof vent pipe, and the vacuum action was/is the result. Maybe it depends on the amount the tank is filled prior to discharge (ours was topped out), but I have had it happen. The waste vent on RVs do not adhere to the same rules as homes. Geoff - "......I will be the first one to say you are not going to displace the water in the toilet bowl when you are driving......" With all respect, can you guarantee that, if someone else is driving? We had loose chairs for our RV dinette; I had never toppled them during travel.. We forgot the peculator atop the counter while travelling a few hundred miles.. no problem.. Others tell tales of "locking the wheels" to avoid a collision..? I prefer not to give the toilet a chance to empty it's contents prematurely.... It never happened to you, and maybe it'll never happen to me... But I'd never suggest to someone else, that it can't happen. The RV manufacturers use the pricier RV toilets. If they could get away with the standard home type. they'd do it to save the $$$ and provide a better "feel" of being at home.. They choose not to use the home type. | ||
| H3-40 Rating: N/A |
Referring to the moving furniture, I have two 30 inch bar stools that sit in front of the bar with the backs to the front. So far, they haven't showed any signs of movement and that's hitting the brakes hard a time or two! I will probably strap them down to be safe but up to now, they, along with items on the bar and kitchen counter just seem to sit in thier place. Ace | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
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Jason, You get the "atta boy" for the week.. Talk about starting a flood of opinions, all different and most arguing over details. If you have a "Silver Eagle" you need to learn about your coach first and fix all the mechanical and RUST problems long before trying to convert it. Asking an open ended question about help will get you a bunch of answers. Most good but confusing. Wake Up... Face Facts... * Generator Runs A/C Units. * RV toilets are designed for RV use. * Inverters are for anything but heating water and running A/C systems unless you have $10,000 to invest in a whole monster system. * More water storage is always better. I carry 196 gallons in my MCI and equivalent waste tankage. * Limit yourself to no more than 2-fuels on board. Diesel and Propane. * House 220 volt appliances will only basically be usable on the generator. Don't expect them to run efficiently on a campground plug or inverter. Got my COLD-FIRE extinguisher sitting by the computer now.. So FLAME ON Guys!  | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Naww. Youse need a pail of water man.... youse hot! (HAR!!) But..... Only two (2) fuels? Why the limit? Used (or new) gasoline gensets are cheap and easy to find. Some can be converted to propane, but why bother? It's easier to find a gas pump, than a propane refill station. A small portable gas tank (boat type), makes refilling easy. There isn't any big deal having three fuels aboard, is there? | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
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DrDave you are 100% right on and John, I once had a gasoline genset with my 4104 and it was a royal pain in the butt having to try and get to a gasoline pump to refill the 25 gallon tank. No thanks for me! Richard | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
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I might mention that burning a quart an hour of diesel is much cheaper than a gasoline genset eating up almost a gallon an hour for the same wattage. No points, sparkplugs, ignition coils and dirty carbs, backfires, flashfires and stuff like that to worry about. I like diesels.... | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
That's why I suggested a portable tank, but man.... most of the average local gas stations are all a major pain to navigate through, to get diesel pump. The diesel pump seems to always be where you can't just drive through. They're either facing the curb and storefront, or between some busy gas islands.. Great for the SUVs and pickup trucks, but not too great for a 40' bus. It didn't stop us from buying a bus, right? Doesn't stop us from getting to that fuel pump, either. The gas pump is right next to it. How much gas does a typical genset use per hour? And how many hours do we run it during an average trip? Our fridge is AC/DC/propane, the heater(s) are propane and the hot water heater is propane. In one cold winter in Massachusetts, I ran out of propane due to the heaters running 24/7. Snowed in, no propane was available. I ran the gas genset to run electric heaters. And yeah, a diesel genset would work fine in a bus conversion, but doesn't the diesel genset cost nearly twice that of a gas genset? And running the genset 24/7 is going to run the bus fuel down. Is there always a diesel stop nearby? (not in the n'east) No rights or wrongs... we all benefit from the various viewpoints. Jason should have it all laid out before him... plenty here to pick at.. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
A quart of diesel an hour? Under load? (hmmm) | ||
| R.C.Bishop
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I'm with John....and without major bucks to put up for a Diesel Generator, I'll stick with three fuels...Diesel for driving and Webasto, Propane for cooking ( only) and gas for a generator. ( 2 portable tanks @6 gallons each) Can easily go a week...probably two if stretched. I personally owe a lot of my system "success" to Fast Fred. Thought provoking, very practical for the most part and very few problems (if any) so far. We have two large tanks under the bed ( "upstairs"), one tank for the marine type commode, an 11 gallon marine water heater (heated by driving or the Webasto, then by the generator if and when necessary) Total about 110 gallons on board with access to the commode tank for "wasted" water waiting for the hot water to show up. Also have water saver faucet fixtures. Very little waste water, all in all. Give your conversion a lot of thought, how you intend to use it and then go for it. As FF says, "do it your way". BTW... I have much to thank many for on this forum, beginning, of course with the head Busnut, Ian!! Thanx, Ian for the opportunities you have given all of us. FWIW RCB | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
"I might mention that burning a quart an hour of diesel is much cheaper than a gasoline genset eating up almost a gallon an hour for the same wattage. " This would be interesting if it were true. Diesel has 160,000btu per gallon , gas about 120,000 Propane about 95,000. The fuel use is directly related to the energy content in the fuel. The Propane fuel is the only one that is not Poisonous . FAST FRED | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
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Oh. Fred.... It's more than a factor of how many btu's a gallon of fuel contains. Diesel generators are many times more efficent than any GAS generator for many reasons. Maybe not in overall initial cost but for the long run a diesel is more fuel efficient per killowatt hour generated. Portable tanks are fine if installed correctly and tied down in a vented space and yes they are easy to use and refill. I use them all the time for many things both gas and diesel. I ran a test on two generators side by side a while back. One was a Gas 7.5 kw and the other was a kubota powered 10kw. With the same load the 1800 rpm gas unit burned 1 gallon an hour while the diesel burned about a quart an hour. My load was set up at the 6.5 kw level. Granted the generator head capacities were different but that's what I had to work with. I went totally diesel after that and have been tickled silly by the lack of need to search for gasoline at 2:00 a.m. been there done that during the 2004 hurricanes. I started using a portable 1800 rpm gas genny and after using 24 gallons of gas in a 24 hour period switched over to my kubota 10kw which was sitting the the bus bay, ran on a 6 gallon marine tank for 12 hours then tapped into the diesel tank and ran for 2 weeks 24-hours a day. I now have a 3000 watt inverter in the bus and only run the diesel generator for 12 hours or so to charge the batteries, run a/c units and make hot water. I don't have a webasto yet and probably won't use one anyway since Florida is warm most of the time and I have a propane furnace that will be installed to handle the cold times. Please understand that we lived in our GMC RTS for 6 years with limited access to 30 amp power. Our 35,000 btu furnace fended off the cold and when needed we used a 1,500 watt portable heater. My fridge was a dometic gas/electric and water heater a lp/gas atwood. At the worst we used 30 lbs of propane a month and that was due only to running the fridge on gas at times. My lighting was all 12 volt halogen fixtures with a few rv style flourescents in critical places. I had a converter but used 2 group 31 batteries most of the time with a 3-amp charger. What I am saying is that it is possible to live on the capacity of an extension cord. If you have an inverter system of decent size and a good diesel generator you can almost live off the grid for extended periods. My electrical system is designed in three sections. * Shore/Generator: 50 amp ( Only need 30 for basics ) {Water heater and a/c runs only on shore or generator power only if 50 amp is available} { I have the option on 30 amp for a/c or water heater } * Inverter 3,000 watt for everything but heat/cool and water heating. * 12 volt power from batteries for lighting and 12 volt accessories, water pump, macerator, furnace power and such stuff. The coach 24 volt electrical system is separate and not connected to any of the living quarters systems. I have 200 watts of solar but havent installed it yet which will add to the house systems and a second 45 watt set of panels to keep the coach batteries peaked on a separate circuit. I tested and tried one of the Bosch instant demand gas water heaters and found that they are not efficient enough for RV use. The one I have burns 100,000 btu's of gas and hour and it doesn't take long to use a 40 lb LP bottle. The venting and space requirements are such a pain. There is a new RV unit on the market but I have not looked into one yet due to the price. The best and worst part of bus conversions is that you get to make gigantic mistakes, recover from them and try again. Or a plan actually works the first time which usually means you did something wrong but didn't see it until 6 months later. Seems like for every $10,000 you spend there is $3,000 worth of mistakes and stuff you have to throw away because it didn't look or work right. Do it your way...Or Utilize the experience that others have and then make your own unique mistakes. Dave... | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Very impressive designing, Dave! I've saved a ton of time and $$ learning from other's mistakes. That's what this forum's all about! "Or a plan actually works the first time which usually means you did something wrong but didn't see it until 6 months later." Most of my best work had been by accident; I thought I was alone with that. | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
"Diesel generators are many times more efficent than any GAS generator for many reasons. Maybe not in overall initial cost but for the long run a diesel is more fuel efficient per killowatt hour generated" Perhaps a look at a modern RV genset like a 6kw Honda vs a lawnmower Kubota conversion , and you will see what modern equippment can do. "initial cost but for the long run a diesel is" For the usual RV use the highest costs are ALL in the long run , with attempts to keep equippment operating. Folks that live near HE** and need air cond 24/7 do the best with diesel. Folks that go RVing and go to campsites or destination parks , for recreation frequently don't use the noisemaker from month to month, or year to year! For those folks the higher cost of Propane is easily offset by the units lack of maintance. No fun to need to coax a diesel that has been sitting unused for months on end into life for a couple of hours of refrigerated air. Far easier to fire off the propane unit. EXTRA Fuel consumption of an extra 15% or even 25% is far easier than getting the genset brought back to life . Especially easier when the unit is quieter and costs half as much . AS always the "solution" depends on the "problem", as YOU see it. Do it your way FAST FRED | ||
| R.C.Bishop
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Nice rebuttal, FF.... Dr. Dave....measuring a conversion in increments of $10,000 is probably not desirable...or possible...for many us. In my case, the coach, nearly 5 years into conversion at this point, is paid for...one item at a time and is very usable, comfortable and esthetically pleasing on the interior. Whether under power pole or boondocking circumstances, we do very well. While I sort of wish my 4kw Onan was a 6.5kw and yes, for convenience, possibly a Diesel, I would not make the change. We have a basement A/C and get along, for the most part, on having only one of it's compressors working. If I felt the need, we would go to a large unit, but even in southern New Mexico, we have not felt the need to do it. I have parts for conversion to Propane, but when something is working well, why mess it up? Maybe some day. At today's prices, it makes little difference in whether to fill with Propane or gas. And, as John Said, pretty convenient to take along two portable gas containers. FWIW RCB | ||
| Bryce Gaston (Busted_knuckle)
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WOW!!!!! Kinda makes me glad I just work on buses and only occassionally think of converting 1! Man O Man talk about ruffled feathers, but in all fairness Jason, this is what makes this board so great you have plenty of "OLD TIMERS" (& I mean that with all due respectthey have earned by BTDT) here that have done it and some even re-done it and learning by someones elses mistakes is always less painful & cheaper! Ya won't be getting any usefull info from me but as you see theres already plenty given and more to come just ask and they will provide! Ain't diversity great! Keeps this great big ol' chuck of rock we live on goin' 'round and round! GOOD LUCK and remember the only true stupid question is the one not asked! Bryce aka Busted Knuckle | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
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A couple of things: Last I looked, diesel was a heck of a lot closer to 140,000 BTU; otherwise, I agree with Fast Fred's figures. According to Dave's figures, he can get 26 kwh out of one gallon of diesel; while I agree that they are a lot better than most gas units, I haven't heard of any diesels that can produce 35 hp for a gallon of fuel per hour or 62% thermal efficiency; two thirds of that or 40%, no problem. Our little 4kw Onan has a displacement of 55 cu. inches, more or less, and 5.5:1 compression ratio. This means that fuel economy will be somewhere south of bad. And it is. With a compression ratio of 20:1 or so, I would expect pretty good light load economy. I would be looking for a diesel if we used our gas unit very much, but a couple of hours every two or three days is about it. We used to have the problems getting the generator going that Fast Fred describes, but I finally figured out that the fuel shutoff at the fuel pump made it easy to run the carburetor dry. Now, when we want to put it to work after it has been setting a couple of months, I turn the valve on and it starts right up, no problem. It looks like dried gas was the big problem. While starting gas engines after they've been sitting for a while can be a problem, that's never mattered much in any diesel I've seen if the engine was in good shape. A worn one just needs some heat to get it going. I did buy 110 watts of solar panels and a pretty good controller and I expect to use the gas generator even less, so a replacement is off of my radar, for now. If a person is interested in gasoline generator fuel economy, I think that these inverter generators have got to be the cat's meow. I suppose after they've been around awhile, we will start hearing some bad things about them. So far, the only thing negative I've heard was that they are so compact that when they need service, they have to be dismantled. I also compared the fuel economy to the best diesels and the little Hondas can even beat them! And they're quieter right out of the box. I guess what this all comes down to is that we struggle to get our utilities where they do the job for us and when they do, we have strongly held opinions about it. It makes for lots of good leads for the newcomers. For what it's worth. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
"I haven't heard of any diesels that can produce 35 hp for a gallon of fuel per hour or 62% thermal efficiency;" For tiny high speed diesels that are turboed and intercooled 22 to 24 HP per gal per hour seems to be it. Perhaps more could be coaxed out but the polution requirements make the new truck & small boat (under 2000hp) diesels about 15% less efficent than the "could " be. Once you get up to BIG diesels , the Pilestick or Sultzer , 20,000 hp at 90 rpm , 101 rpm at flank, (located in CNG carriers) the efficency (at least published efficency ) does get into the 65% range. Of course you could drop a bus down one cylinder , but there ARE moderatly efficent diesels. FAST FRED | ||
| Jason SPrinkle (Jsprinkle)
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All, Thank you very much for the most useful information. I will take your advice and expertise to heart in my initial design and system configurations. BTW what is the best bus to convert and what should I avoid? LOL!! Wait don't answer that, I am just kidding, step away from the key board !! Seriously,Thank you all for your time and assistance, I hope to see you around the camp fire. Jason Sprinkle RDOMAN | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Yeah. Yer gonna' do well here. I can feel it. | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
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Question for Don tx In one of the above posts you mentioned that you had optimized your conversion for boondocking, but mentioned that you had purchased expensive equipment that is not being utilized. Would you care to elaborate? Joe. | ||
| ChuckMC9 (Chucks)
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"what is the best bus to convert and what should I avoid?" That was hilarious, Jason. As John said, you'll do fine. These guys have been pretty well-behaved lately but I guess the stress of spending money on dumb Valentines day junk instead of on those new teak cabinets for the bus just has their hammeroids acting up. |