| Author | Message | ||
| Darrin Bruner
Rating: |
My biggest concern on all buses I've looked at is the condition of the engine. So when I recently narrowed my search to a 1985 Eagle Model 10 I tried to do all the right things by having the DD6V92T inspected at an authorized DD shop, the Allison HT747 inspected at an authorized Allison shop, the bus inspected at Jefferson Bus in OKC and oil & coolant samples pulled and analyzed at a lab. The DD inspection said the engine(which had an out-of-frame rebuild approx 1 year ago) was good...just needs 2 gaskets & 1 seal replaced due to small leaks. The Allison inspection reported a "rock solid" transmission(factory rebuilt approx 3 years ago). The Jefferson inspection said the frame had little to no rust, brakes are good, torsilastic suspension is good, but it will need some front end work in the near future(king pins, etc.). The lab test showed no coolant in the oil. Armed with this info I felt confident that this bus was a good buy...not to mention that the bus already had a professional 8" roof raise, new front & rear caps, upgraded Model 15 windshield, skinned sides, one-piece door, 7 RV windows, 3 rooftop A/C, foam insulated, 22KW genset and a new LP furnace. All I had to do was finish the interior and give her a new paint job.....YEAH RIGHT!!! Now for the nightmare...I buy the bus on a Monday afternoon and start the 150 mile drive home, the engine starts intermittently blowing white smoke due to an oil leak in the turbo(2 mechanics tell me it's just a leaky seal and it won't hurt to go on...famous last words). I make it halfway home and the bus loses power and I coast to the shoulder(I still had oil pressure, air pressure and the temp was about 180). I discover that the turbo has leaked alot of oil, coolant boiling over and more discharge than usual from the slobbertube. I had it towed to a diesel shop close to my house(arrived at 3:00am). Turbo was shot so we replace it with a rebuilt turbo only to discover that 6V92T is pumping oil out the slobbertube & coolant out the fill-hole and there is coolant in the oil. I am now being told that the engine is toast. The head mechanic suggest repowering with a 4-stroke(60 series) since it is getting more difficult & expensive to get parts for the old 2-strokes. I don't feel comfortable having this 6V92T rebuilt again, but not sure what direction to go on repowering. Will a 60 Series or 50 Series DD fit in the Model 10 and mate up to the Allison HT-747? Would a Cummins or CAT 4-stroke be a better choice and will they mate up to the Allison? I know this will not be cheap, but I need the bus to be mechanically sound before moving forward with any additional conversion work(BTW money is an issue). I am very frustrated & gun-shy with the whole engine/bus conversion thing right now(sick to my stomach may be a better description). Please give me your advice & comments. Thanks, Darrin Bruner 1985 Eagle Model 10 | ||
| Chuck Lott (Chuckmc8)
Rating: N/A |
Darrin, This isn't a answer to your question, and I apologize. You did all the right things, so, this should'nt happen. Was the bus driven between the time you had the engine inspected and when you picked it up to drive home? Obviously, the engine wasn't smoking when you had it tested......Sounds like it someone else may have taken it for a test drive and may have been ran the engine hot or something..after....you checked it out. Being towed less than 150 miles from picking it up....smeelllssss | ||
| Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A |
First of all, the DD shop/tech that inspected your engine did not know what he was doing. He must be a new generation, computer analysis parts changer. White smoke in a 2 stroke DD does not come from a bad turbo. That white smoke is unburned diesel which may be an injector(s) or low compression. Seeing how your engine went out I would say you had one or more bad clyinders. Pulling the heads and inspecting the crank will tell you exactly what the problem was/is and what it will take to fix it. I suspect since that engine was only a year old that it must have gotten overheated and had fresh oil put in before the oil analysis. Anyway, you did things right-- you were just let down by people who weren't qualified to work on the older engines were a lot of experience is necessary for a proper analysis. But then the impending breakdown may still have not been forseen. Now you ask what is the best route to take/-- Series 60 4-stroke or fix the 6V92TA? I say fix the 6V92, you will spend a lot of time and money converting over to a 4-stroke for very little gain. Parts are readily available for the older 2-strokes, and will continue to be available for many, many years since there are so many of them still around. What is not around and is getting less and less is people that know how to work on them. But that is just a matter of getting your contacts just like we have to do for anything that is not current, like our 20-50 year old buses. If you want to get moving on your project I suggest finding a competent shop that is familiar with the 2-strokes that can rebuild your engine. A simple inframe overhaul with rebuilt heads will get you going the quickest, however if your engine has seen a few inframes already and is leaking oil everywhere it may be time for the full out of frame major. Good luck! --Geoff (Factory certified 2-stroke mechanic from the old days) | ||
| Bryce Gaston (Busted_knuckle)
Rating: N/A |
Darrin, I believe any swap is going to require fabrication, however for the closest fit I believe to 50 series will work best with yer transmission this way yer not having to shorten the driveshaft or stretch the coach (to fit the new engine). I've never done it so I'm not positive on this issue but from what I've seen and heard I think this is correct! But I'm sure some of our eagle guru's can & will enlighten you better ! | ||
| Bryce Gaston (Busted_knuckle)
Rating: N/A |
Darrin, by the way if you don't mind me asking where is "home" maybe one of our "nut's" are close by or knows of someone good with 2 strokes near you! | ||
| joel selman Rating: N/A |
Sorry, but thanks for posting. I'm in the same dilemma. 1989 prevost 8v92ta getting tired and nickel and diming me to death. My problem is everyone I talk with says its a humongous job to repower series 60. I LOVE the bus interior, overall we're very happy with it, but I may go so far as to buy a donor series 60 prevost and convert. I can't find a series 60 with the nice wood interior and excellent marathon systems; a new one is $1,400,000. Do I rebuild the 8v92 for $20,000 or convert for $125,000? I will say I've had good service from the 8v92 for 250,000+ miles, but we intend to keep the bus a while and the 60 gets 35% better mileage. We put 30-50,000 miles/year on it. WHAT TO DO? | ||
| Jim Shepherd (Rv_safetyman)
Rating: N/A |
Darrin, the following was my reply to your post on the MAK board: Darrin, I am also sorry to hear about your problems. I also had a sad tail of engine and transmission problems with my ’85 Eagle. I installed a Series 60 and 10 speed Eaton AutoShift truck transmission in my Eagle. Some of the installation is detailed on the website shown in my signature. You can put most any four stroke in your Eagle. With the big four strokes, you will need to raise the bed area (detailed on my site). Many folks are going to the Cummins M11/ISM engine. This engine will fit with less chassis modifications and can be rated to 500 HP (although 400 is more realistic). The biggest issue is gearing. The two strokes can run all day at 2100 RPM which is typically in the 70-75 MPH range. Four strokes want to run in the 1300-1600 RPM range for both torque and fuel mileage (plus engine life). That suggests that you change the rear end gearing ($$$$ and the best you can do on an Eagle is 3.36 which does not buy you much – you need something less than 3.0 to get you geared correctly). Lots of folks live with the gearing, but when you talk to them, they almost universally wish they had 30% more gears. The only options are the Allison World transmission ($$$$) or a truck transmission with an overdrive. I chose the Eaton AutoShift which is an automated truck transmission. You will find the details on my website. With some good shopping you can find the engine and maybe transmission for less that 60% of a rebuild cost for the 6V92. However, the parts and pieces will eat up the difference and then some. If you have someone do the conversion, it will end up about double the cost of a rebuild (approaching $30K). Jim Shepherd Evergreen, CO ’85 Eagle 10 http://rvsafetysystems.com Toll Free: 1**888**349**0704 Bus Project details: http://www.rvsafetysystems.com/busproject.htm (updated 2/9/06) | ||
| Darrin Bruner
Rating: N/A |
Bryce, My home is just west of Gunter, TX (about 50 miles north of Dallas). Thanks, Darrin | ||
| Sonnie Gray (Catskinner)
Rating: N/A |
Darrin I live just a little ways north of you, Pottsboro, TX I also have a 72 0/5 Eagle that I installed a 3406 CAT in. Call me and we can talk busses. Catskinner! Sonnie Gray Pottsboro, Tx 903 815-2141 | ||
| Bryce Gaston (Busted_knuckle)
Rating: N/A |
Darrin, I'm in Northwest, Tennessee but I see Catskinner (who has an awesome unit, that I'd personally like to examine some day!) is close by! I don't think you'll find anyone better qualified closer to help you with a swap! Catskinner I have only seen some pictures of your bus, but from what I've seen I love it! Nice work! Knuckle | ||
| JR
Rating: N/A |
Save yourself a lot of $$$ and headaches and replace the 6V92T. You will be in for a major surprise trying to have someone retrofit a 50S into your Eagle. And then, once completed, the bus may or may not be dependable and no one will want to work on it. With care, you can buy any "T" drive bus, automatic or manual, with a good 6V92T MUI (not DDEC) for reasonable bucks and drive your replacement engine home. You got some bad advice on the engine. Luke had a good "takeout" 6V92T recently. You may be able to find a cheap New Jersey Transit and get a good used engine. You may want to check the bus again for rust and whatever. You may have bad info on that system too. One must wonder why someone would spend the thousands that has been spent on your Eagle, and then sell it. It happens. I'd be willing to guestimate that it would cost $20K to $30K to convert your coach to 50S if you must pay someone to do the work. If you are able to do it the cost will still be $10K or better. With a used 50S...and they break too. I'd call Pedco, Luke, Sam Caylor, and Nimco for some ideas on 6V92T MUI engine costs before going too far. Changing out your engine for a similar unit is relatively easy. Repowering with another style engine is a technical feat. Got to remember the RPM difference between your 2 stroke and the lower cruise RPM of most 4 strokes. May have to change the drive axle ratios or find an OD trans....more $$$. Another thing is that you were given misinformation on parts availability for 2 DDs...parts are readily available and will be for the forseeable future. And they aren't any more expensive than 4 cycle parts...may be cheaper. 2 strokes are complicated to repair, but, once done correctly, you'll be thru with major engine repairs for the Eagle's lifetime. Sorry to hear of your problems, but welcome to busing! JR | ||
| Bill K Rating: N/A |
I know all we hear is 4 stroke, well here is the other side. My brotherin law has a fleet of trucks. They have had nothing but trouble with the 60 series. several have been back to the shop many time and still haveing trouble. I did hear him say that one of the problems was the end of some injectors braking off, this is just one problem of many. Also some others that he know have been having problems. He says no more DD. These are not old trucks with high mileage. Just passing on what I have been told. | ||
| FAST FRED Rating: N/A |
If youre engine was not overheated , a cheap & simple inframe will get you another 250,000 for cheap dollars. The 60 transplants I have seen were a work of love by very knowledgable folks. Not somthing for 1 bus garage in 500 to do , and hardly something a "mechanic" should be learning how do at $50 to $75 an hour! If you dont have the hundreds of hours , and ability to do it yourself , a rebuild , or replacing the shell is more rational. FAST FRED | ||
| Darrin Bruner
Rating: N/A |
Thanks everyone for the advice & technical info! Based on the info I've received, I don't have the money or experience to tackle a repower. I believe my best option is replacing the existing 6V92 with another 6V92. I am very hesitant to rebuild my existing 6V92 since it has now blown twice in the last year. JR, You suggested: "I'd call Pedco, Luke, Sam Caylor, and Nimco...". Can you please provide contact info for these folks? Thanks! Darrin Bruner 1985 Eagle Model 10 | ||
| JR
Rating: N/A |
Hi Darrin, Here's contact info. US Coach (Luke)856 767 4848, NJ Sam Caylor 785 878 3405, KS Pedco 562 944 3199, LA, CA Nimco has a website: www.nimcobus.com NJ In the order of descending ease to do business, Luke at US Coach should be a first stop. Sam Caylor dismantles all sorts of MCI and has a huge collection of good used parts for MCIs. Same for Nimco. Pedco sells rebuilt engines and is respected for their product quality. Reckon the same would apply to Detroit Diesel Reliabuilts, but DD will likely be the most expensive to buy from. Luke had a used 6V92T recently. If Luke says it's good, it probably is. An engine could be shipped on a pallet...pretty heavy piece of equipment though..about 2500 lbs depending on accessories. A complete (removed from donor with all accessories) takeout would be my first choice. Problem with rebuilds is that the engine is just the beginning...blowers, turbos (you got that) air compressors, alternators, and all sorts of other very expensive parts should be rebuilt or replaced with rebuild. An inframe, may be a good option if done by "qualified" mechanics, but it will be a major catastrophe if poorly done. Check with the guys above and see what's available. If you look for a bus takeout, you'll want a 6V92TA MUI (mechanical unit injection) RH rotation "T" drive engine. Truck engines require most accessories from the bus,including the bell housing. Don't let your core go until the replacement is installed and running. Be careful if the engine is referred to as a "core"...all that means is that it's rebuildable. There are a lot of NJTs around that are rustbuckets yet have good engines in them. And, they are all over the US...look for a purple or silver engine. A money back guarantee would be nice...you won't get the install or freight back. Still?? A good used 6V92TA shoulc be in the $3000 to $6000 range. Beware of non-documented rebuilds. These are often crap. Anyone that spends $15K getting a proper rebuild should have records indicating such work. I've bought a good many parts from Luke and Sam Caylor...both are highly recommended. Good Luck, JR | ||
| JR Rating: N/A |
Just one more bit...avoid marine engines, military surplus, industrial engines, and fire apparatus engines. These won't cool in a bus. They are too high HP rated. They turn up on the 'net all the time. Not good bus powerplants. And should you find someone with an old "green" DD, avoid that too. '80s are best for MUI. JR | ||
| DMDave Rating: N/A |
Moldy old Detroit? |
