| Author |
Message |
Kevin Hatch
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 11:45 pm: | |
So my band and I headed out last Friday for our maiden voyage in the 4905. We we're scheduled to be out for a month long tour. We headed out of Amarillo, Tx to Dallas for our first show. It went great, no problems. Then headed back north to Oklahoma City for show two the next day. Noticed the clutch slipping a tiny bit when I lugged it too much in third gear. Other than that no problems. We had two days off in OKC so we hung out with friends and such. Headed out from OKC going to Texarkana, AR on Tuesday. We drove for about an hour and all seemed fine, when all of a sudden it felt like some one started putting on the brakes. I looked in the mirror and saw some smoke, mostly dark with a little white. At the same time the oil light and buzzer came on. The engine was dead. I pushed in the clutch and we coasted to the shoulder. The starter would not turn the engine over. I hopped off and went to the back to find a lot of oil all over the back of the bus and dripping off of the bumper in large amounts. We got towed back into OKC and dropped at United Engine, the Detroit dealer. Over the course of the past two and a half days they dave pulled off the valve covers, oil pan, alternator, air compressor, injectors, and who knows what else and still haven't found why it's locked down. So we left the bus there and made our way home today. We still have no clue why it broke. It never showed over temp. on the gauge and never showed low oil pressure. Another strange thing was when we got it to the shop they said there was no water in the puke tank but no water in the oil and I saw no water when it happened. Seems real strange to me. Should I repower with a different engine/trans now? Any estimate on a rebuild vs repower? I'm really in the dark here. We're looking for the best most cost effective way out of this. By the way it's an 8V71 with a 4spd manual. |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 11:57 pm: | |
Hard to tell "cost effective", when you haven't got the figures
to repair what you've got... yet. You're at the mercy of the
garage... Ask what they charge for labor to replace the engine
with another used one, and how much they would
charge for a used one. Then look for a used one..
If their price to fix what you have, is less than a used replacement,
then I'd have it repaired.
Real sorry to hear of your plight. It could happen to any of
us at any time. |
Brian Brown (Blue_velvet)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 2:41 am: | |
Wow! So sorry to hear about your woes.
If you just need the engine, you could find a donor in many places for much cheaper than a rebuild. Or get a whole parts bus. There's a few Buffs on eBay right now that might go for pretty cheap. A 4107 would share a lot with your 4905 also, and have the wet clutch.
Hang tough, and keep us posted,
Brian Brown
PD4106-1175
Longmont, CO |
Donald Lee Schwanke (Dontx)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 8:47 am: | |
OKC is a lucky place to break it, lots of places there that do buses. Jefferson bus would be a great place to start for a used engine, out west of town. It has been my experience that a DD dealer is going to be VERY expensive.
Jefferson Truck Trailer & Bus Repair
(405) 272-0213
(800) 813-9367
1317 W Reno Ave
Oklahoma City, OK 73106 |
Kevin Hatch
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 10:17 am: | |
I have done some business with Ed at Jefferson and they have been great. He is actually the one I called first. Apparantly they're engine guy passed away last year and they haven't found a replacement since. So they're not doing any engine work. Ed directed me to United Engine and one other place out of MO that does used engines. Do you think it'd be a gamble going witha used engine? I don't want to end up right back in the spot I'm in now. At least the DD dealer will warranty the work at any other DD dealer. Like I mentioned, our band tours in this rig and we are ALL over the country. |
Donald Lee Schwanke (Dontx)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 12:55 pm: | |
In your particular case, I would think that going with the DD people would be your wisest move, cost be damned. When I had a Kenworth on the road, the best money I spent was at an authorized CAT dealer, with nationwide quick warranty service.
They are not going to take the "looks good enough" approach, they are going from experience and DD information. They will replace things the others would not bother with, cost a little more, but warranty their work, and most of all for you, give you a dependable ride. |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 2:14 pm: | |
Kevin -
Donald's right, just as your "gut feeling" is. DD warrantees
their work, so future problems can be remedied easier/less
expensively. Likewise, MCI does the same.
There's a two bus, charter outfit near Tampa, that has his
buses serviced only by MCI. He swore it was the most cost
effective way to go, since they guaranteed everything....
and everything was done right the first time.
A used engine is the way to go for any of us that aren't
making money with the rig, and are attempting to keep
what little cash we have.. For the mileage most of us will
put on the bus, a new engine is a waste. We'd ruin it from
non-use...
MCI
www.mcicoach.com
Address: 9787 Clifford Drive
Dallas, TX 75220 USA
Toll-Free: (800) 248-4942
(800) 241-2947: 24-hour roadside assistance
Phone: (214) 366-5906
Fax: (214) 366-5901
Service Hours: Monday - Friday / 7AM - 8PM
Email: servicecenterTX AT mcicoach.com
DD
www.detroitdiesel.com
United Engines LLC
5555 W. Reno St.
Oklahoma City, OK US 73127
Phone: 405-947-3321
Fax: 405-947-3406
Full Service
(there are eleven DD authorized repair centers in OK) |
Kevin Hatch
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 3:56 pm: | |
So I just spoke with United Engines (they currently have the bus). They found one piston gaulded to the cylinder. He said they could fix just that problem but was concerned about the wear on the rest of the cyls. thinking it would break again sooner than later. He said he hadn't put a pencil to it yet but estimated the overhaul to fix it the right way would run around $15-18K!! I don't know about you guys, but I don't have that kind of money!!
Anyone have an extra left handed 8V71 lying around in good shape!? |
Phil Smith (Phil_smith)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 9:33 pm: | |
I'd really be nice for the guy to explain what actually happened and what was damaged. Just from what you said, it sounds like it got real hot from lack of oil or water. Did the gauges say anything? or ?
Just wondering out loud.
Phil in Az. |
Kevin Hatch
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 9:53 pm: | |
No. The gauges didn't show anything out of the ordinary. The guy said it looked like it got hot. The only thing I can think of is if the temp. sensor wasn't working right or there wasn't water on the sensor to read accurately. I've seen that in the past on automotive applications. |
DMDave
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 10:02 pm: | |
How are the bearings and crank? can they put one liner kit in? |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 10:13 pm: | |
Ask him how much -exactly- (no overrun), to get that
one cylinder fixed, and you out of there. Also how much
for a used engine, and how much to remove and install one.
Get the prices on paper.
I'd give MCI and ABC a call as well.... They both gaurantee
their work (and the parts used). A decent used engine may be
best for you. Rebuilt is going to cost you some bucks...
It's great to say "price doesn't matter" when it falls within
the budget. But it's not often you're going to find that happen,
with the big kid's toys. |
mark scaife (Markwb)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 1:17 am: | |
kevin, i'm not an expert with two strokers but from what i gather they really hate to be lugged. maybe someone here could post up the rpm range for the engine . do you remember how low down you lugged her, what rpm? maybe this caused the piston to heat up . just a thought. good luck , hope you get mobile soon. |
Phil Smith (Phil_smith)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 8:52 am: | |
Seems to me that my 8v-71N likes to run at 1800-1900. That's the 'sweet spot' for it.
Mark: I'm not a big gambler on any level, but I sure would look into a 'used' engine that a mechanic ( or at least someone with DD TWO-STROKE experience ) can look at and hear run. The 8v-71's are really very bullet proof if you keep all the 'vitals' on track. Make sure that your 'Tell-tale' gauges or alarms are working correctly ( I know - I know, I didn't need to say it ).
There's 3 things my DD doesn't like - Low water,Low oil, Low RPM.
I hope all this turns out ok for you. It could happen to any of us on our next trip.
Phil in AZ. |
Phil Smith (Phil_smith)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 9:31 am: | |
Ok, I meant Kevin ! Not enough coffee yet.
Phil, |
Kevin Hatch
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 11:19 am: | |
I did talk to Jim from Victoria, TX. He has an 8V71 with a wet clutch 4 spd in a 4104 he'd sell me for a real good price. Apparantly someone prior to him "stuffed" the 871 in it. He said you just bump the starter and she fires up with no smoke. He did say the slobber tube has got some oil dripping, and he thinks the blower needs to be re-sealed. He said he'd do that at his own expense if I wanted it. I'm a rookie here, but is that possible or would the oil leaking point more toward the rings? Do you think it'd be more of a gamble going with an engine that we don't really know much about, vs repairing the one cylinder on my engine? |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 11:33 am: | |
Prices, man. You need prices to repair, and to install.... and
engine prices.....
How can you compare and make a choice w/out definite prices?
(ps: that's why they call it a "slobber tube") |
Donald Lee Schwanke (Dontx)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 11:58 am: | |
I was there and have personally heard the 8V71 Jim has start and run, it sure is a sweet one, probably was chosen carefully by a previous owner for the engine swap into the 4104. Personally I would not worry about the slobber tube, mine did that when just sitting around too, but when I put it on the road it cleared right up. I just hung an old milk jug on the tube for it to slobber into. Years and thousands of miles later, it had about an inch in the bottom of the milk jug.
Sure would make a quick and reasonable repair. |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 12:19 pm: | |
Kevin -
I'm about as much of a "rookie" as you are... however...
If one piston has welded itself to the cylinder sleeve, what's
the rest of the engine like? United Engine suggested a complete
rebuild... But they did say they can fix that one cylinder?
For how much, exactly? I would consider it a temporary
fix to get me on the road (and in your case, making money),
and look for a replacement engine.
Jim's engine may be perfect for you. But you need a price
for the engine, and a price for labor to install it. And... unless
your bus runs, you'll need to either have United do it, or tow
it elsewhere. Prices?
It's difficult to make good choices while you're at the mercy
of others. Ask United for their opinion regarding the used
engine versus making the single cylinder fix for your present
one. And get some solid prices for:
A. The job
B. The engine
C. Labor to replace the engine.
Please post everything here, so any of us that may find ourselves
in your shoes, will have some insight regarding remedies....
Lotsa' luck! |
Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 12:52 pm: | |
I'm going thru the same thing with my newest bus.
I decided that since it was actually a bit cheaper to put in a remanufactured engine than repair (rebuild is a better word) the old blown one, the new one was the way.
Knowing as little as I do about yours, my thoughts are pretty much the same... whatever killed that one cylinder probably stressed out a lot more of the engine, and if all you do is repair the one, you may just be driving a time bomb waiting to do a repeat performance at any time on you.
Especially since you appear to be using this as an income source (gigs, right?) it's just not worth another breakdown.
So I'd either get a rebuilt engine, completely rebuild your currrent engine, or if you feel one like Jim's is ok, get it. But the one in the bus right now getting "repaired"? not a chance.....
Jes' my two cents |
Kevin Hatch
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 1:25 pm: | |
Here's what I Know price-wise. Unfortunately I'm having trouble getting the guy at United to call me back with an exact quote (kinda pissing me off!). He told me they could fix the one hole but was concerned it would do the same thing again soon. He said the rest was showing quite a bit of wear. He said just off the top of his head around $15-18K to overhaul. Again, no quote yet, or still! I checked with Diesel Exchange out of Springfield, MO for a rebuilt engine. They quoted me $9816 plus a $4000 core charge, plus $850 round trip shipping. Then I talked to Nick at Nimco in New Jersey. He has several Fishbowls with 8V71s and auto trans. He quoted me $3500 for the engine or $4500 for engine and trans. plus shipping of course. Then I talked to a guy in CA That has an '86 6V92T that he'd sell me for $3500. I don't know if I want to go into the fab process to swap however. Then I talked to Jim about his. He told me $2000 for engine and trans. The up side to his is I can drive down with my 18' tandem axle trailer and pick it up. I'm really tired of trying to get ahold United. Seems like they don't really want my business. I can have the bus towed home for about $1200. I still am not sure what the diagnosis bill is up to at United as well! They've had it since last Tuesday but I'm not sure how much time they've actually spent on it. I feel Like I'm gunna get kinda screwed there! |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 1:37 pm: | |
Ask Jim if he knows where you can get the engine swapped.
I'd tow the blasted thing to wherever Jim says, get his engine
installed, and on your way.
MCI does all their own work at their own facilities....
ABC bus uses nothing but their own facilities....
DD uses "authorized dealers", much the same as car manufacturers.
I never liked car dealers... know what I'm sayin'?
Once you get rolling again, sign an account with MCI or ABC
(or both), and future breakdowns may be a lot less of a hassle.
Hell, it's your livelihood at stake! |
Kevin Hatch
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 1:49 pm: | |
I do have a guy here in Amarillo that really knows his DD stuff. They call him Dr. Detroit. I'd really prefer him to work on it. I think I'll compair the cost of fixing the one hole (hopefully enough to get it home) to the cost of towing it home. Just get it home one way or another. Then drop in Jim's engine/trans (or at least his clutch assy. since mine's going out) and save my old engine till I can afford to completely overhaul it. What do ya think? |
Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 2:07 pm: | |
After you figure out which engine you are going to put in learn not to lug the engine-- that is most likely why you seized a jug, and more than likely damaged the other ones.
Quote:
"Noticed the clutch slipping a tiny bit when I lugged it too much in third gear."
2-stroke Detroits don't like to be lugged, epecially if someone has put oversized injectors.
I have seen it happen several times, just like what happened to your engine.
--Geoff
'82 RTS AZ |
Kevin Hatch
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 2:37 pm: | |
The thing that kinda stinks is the bus dosen't have a tach. and I can't hear the engine through all of the walls and bunks and stuff. I guess I need to install a tach. |
Donald Lee Schwanke (Dontx)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 2:57 pm: | |
John Vickers had his 4905 converted from stick to auto at a place just East of Jefferson in OKC. It was a place that worked primarily on tour fleets as I recall, certainly a great place to have an engine swapped out by someone that knows them. Just another option for ya. |
Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 4:27 pm: | |
If it was my bus, I would call all the charter bus companies in the area and see if any of them have the time to either replace your engine or fix it. If you can get a good used one over to them that might be the best way to go. Anyway, I sure as heck wouldn't let the Detroit Dealer fix it-- they are going to charge you an arm and a leg, and if they are like most of the Detroit Dealers they probably don't have anyone left who can still work on 2-strokes and know what they are doing. The charter bus companies are one of the few places where you can still find a good 2-stroke mechanic, and they usually are a lot cheaper on labor rate.
--Geoff |
jlvickers
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 5:16 pm: | |
John Vickers had his 4905 converted from stick to auto at a place just East of Jefferson in OKC. It was a place that worked primarily on tour fleets as I recal.
Close Don but it was west of Jefferson's place.
It was called Ron's Bus Repair which is no longer in busness sad to say for us bus folks.
Ron is now working for one of the charter companys around OKC,OK which one I can not recall.
Also Ron is not doing any out side work from what I understand.
I wish that I could give Kevin some good contacs around OKC,OK but I don't know any one that is doing engine work on Detroits.
jlv |
jimmci9 #2
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 5:49 pm: | |
united engines in okc is a good facility..... i know... i worked in shreveport for them... and they have some good 2 stroke guys...enough of the bad-mouthing detroit dealerships!!!!... i still work for 1...tri-point energy services...if you don't have first hand knowlege , don't speculate... and for damn sure, don't bad mouth them... |
Bryce Gaston (Busted_knuckle)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 7:56 pm: | |
jimmci9 this is your humble opinion, as quoted!
"united engines in okc is a good facility..... i know... i worked in shreveport for them... and they have some good 2 stroke guys..."
You worked in Shreveport! What's that got to do with OKC? Also were you there recently (OKC)? Do you personally know these people at OKC? Just because you "still work at 1 doesn't necessarily mean they are great places (yours or others), they could be but from what I and others have experinced most of them are only out to serve the mega fleets that have modern equipment under warranty or BIG $, so yes it's only our opinion about dealerships gouging (from what we've seen), but hey it's a free country, and we are all entitled to our own opinions everyone has one and some of them stink! But yer entitled to yers without us telling you kiss our a..! Have you ever had to pay a bill at one of these places?(I mean some where out on the road, not where you bought an oil filter from yer work!) BK |
David Evans (Dmd)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 8:24 pm: | |
Remember a dealership has way more overhead than a small shop plus is reluctant to tie up floor space with a job that may or may not be payed for anytime soon. Its tough to give an actual exact price with so many varibles,avenues of repair etc. Of course a dealer may be more expensive....but if the job is done correctly? what is that worth. Thats probably their reason for hesitating and the no call backs. They gave a price to do it right. There are lots of experienced Detroit mechanics around who were trained byu the dealers before they struck out on thier own. I like that Don has heard the engine in the 04 run and you have the ability to pick it up. Good luck and hit the U-haul to the gigs till shes up and running. |
jimmci9 #2
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 8:42 pm: | |
its hard for a mechanic to defend a dealerships policy... made by management....but i have good friends at united engines... company owner, as a matter of fact... frank pool of pool well service fame...and while i don't like to pay dealership prices, i do recognize that they pay franchise fees, training, all sorts of things you never think of...the rersources the dealerships have can not be equaled....how many times have you called 1.. asked for information and got it??? free.... our busines answers lame questions from people all the time.... i hope you never break down ...god luck trying to find all the aftermarket stuff to keep you going... |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 8:52 pm: | |
Kevin -
"I can't hear the engine through all of the walls and bunks
and stuff. I guess I need to install a tach."
When you're a bus driver, driving a bus load of people that
are talking, singing, playing bingo, and making a bunch of
racket, you can't hear the engine... And when you're driving
and shifting, you don't want to waste time focusing your eyes
on a tach. I never drove a bus with a tach, I didn't know
there were any buses with 'em.. but hey...
Driving a standard, we felt the engine vibration through the
shifter, and shifted at the governed speed for each gear.
If you get into the habit of running up to the governor in each
gear before shifting (and taking note what that speed is for
downshifting), you won't ever be lugging the engine.
1st is usually good 0 to 15mph, 2nd 15 to 30ish, 3rd 30 to 55,
and fourth, 55 to whatever...
If you're going to go 45-55 mph, use third gear. Under 35,
use 2nd gear. Never run it in a gear higher or lower than
the governed speed for it, and you'll be safe.
In my opinion, a tach is a needless waste of cash.
Re:
"-Just get it home one way or another.
-drop in Jim's engine/trans
-save my old engine till I can afford to completely overhaul it."
That sounds like the best plan of all!
Best of luck, man! |
Bryce Gaston (Busted_knuckle)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 9:12 pm: | |
From: "Jim" <jimcat2@webtv.net> Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert
"Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 19:33:24 -0600
To: bustedknucklegarage@yahoo.com
Subject: jimmci9
youre an asshole!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Your so right! but I'm me an yer you! Yer entitled to yer opinion as well as anyone else is! If you don't like my opinion that's fine, and I won't call ya names just because you don't like my opinion! Have a nice day! BK |
Bryce Gaston (Busted_knuckle)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 9:21 pm: | |
John yer so right about shifting by feel! It wasn't until recently I've started seeing buses with tach's but most of them are newer with 60 Series or Cummin's engines & automatic transmissions! I've put many miles on many a 9 , 96A or 102A with a 4 or 5 spd trans and just shifting by feel as with a noisy bus load of people ya can't hear that scream'n engine. And ya'll jimmci9 has figured me out as I posted the personal email he sent me! Have a great day! BK aka a..hole! LOL! |
Kevin Hatch
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 10:12 pm: | |
MAN!! I didn't think my trying to get some helpful opinions would cause a brawl!! I'm just really new to this and look to you guys for some expertise to aid in my decision making process. Jim sorry if you thought I was bashing the DD dealer. I wasn't. I'm just frustrated with the guy not calling me back OR even giving me a quote when they have had the rig for almost a week. |
LarryN 4106
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 10:52 pm: | |
Kevin, when you get your bus back up and running
you might want to read this:
http://www.tejascoach.com/tejasoil.html#Drive, |
Kevin Hatch
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 11:28 pm: | |
Thanks Larry. I actually came across this just a little bit ago today. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I was going down the road in fourth gear and I come to a little bit of an incline and the bus slows a little but dosen't drop below the third to fourth shift point (that's about 52-53mph in my bus) then it's not lugging, right? Because that is exactly what happened when we broke. I did not, however, know that lugging was bad on the two strokers until after all this happened. Learn something new every day!! |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 11:55 pm: | |
Hey Kevin.... It's Saturday night... full moon...lotta' things...
Don't worry about brawls.. we're all among friends here...
Just a lil' steam venting. Better via email, than baseball bat.
The trouble with "authorized dealers", can be well noted
just by taking notice of all your local car dealers of the
same brand vehicle. One can be great, and the other one
the biggest crook in the world. Some are reaching for their
bottom line and the next buck, before they've given you
your bucks worth. That's life... big deal. Don't worry 'bout it.
Not all "authorized dealers" are the same. I'm sure Jimmie
knows that.
I wouldn't assume that you are at fault for the engine's
demise. Every one of these buses have been put up for
sale for a reason: They can't be depended upon to make
a profit.
No matter how good the pre-sale inspection, you do not
know what the bus has endured during it's life. A fairly large
operator here, buys and sells buses. He's bought some
real winners, along with some real losers, and he's a pro.
It's too bad that you have to go through what you're going
through, but if all you need is a replacement engine.... Man,
thank the stars! Consider yourself lucky!
Your new plans make sense, go with it and don't look back.
Best wishes to youse guys. |
Donald Lee Schwanke (Dontx)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 12:06 am: | |
Still, I say get a tach, and it can help with shift points as well. Governed engine speeds can be changed very easily, for all you know yours might have been set up far beyond where you want to be for each shift (or beyond reasonable rpm limits). I think the 4905 came governed at 1950 rpm from the factory. Most any shop has a handheld tach and can easily tell you where yours is set. |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 5:56 am: | |
"I come to a little bit of an incline and the bus slows a little but dosen't drop below the third to fourth shift point (that's about 52-53mph in my bus) then it's not lugging, right?"
No that is far from lugging the engine.
Most GM 4 speed were designed to drop from 1600 on the gov to only about 900 -1000 when shifting.
Ordinarily if the coach is above the shift speed , and can maintain speed the engine is doing fime.
The EXCEPTION is the folks that Hot Rod the engine with large defuler injectors.
These engines CAN be fed more fuel than they can use and usually pour huge black smoke while over heating.
A Used takeout from NIMCO (or similar) should work fine for a couple of hundred thousand miles , at lowest cost.
FAST FRED |
Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 7:51 am: | |
Kevin-- From reading the events leading up to the engine failure I bet someone put oversize injectors in your engine. Standard injectors that are sized for your engine and timing will require a downshift before the clyinders overheat. On the other hand oversized injectors will give you power at low rpms and overheat the clyinders, which is what sounds like happened to you. Black smoke is sign of overfueling, but in high altitudes you are going to get it anyway. Watching your tach is a good way of keeping your rpms up, but a pyrometer is the only way to know if your clyinders are overheating.
To be safe stick with the right size injectors for your 71 engine-- N60's for standard timing, N65's for advanced timing.
--Geoff |
Donald Lee Schwanke (Dontx)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 9:19 am: | |
Geoff and Fred just provided some very well put information there guys, and best illustrates the reason that "lugging" is often not properly described. IN THE AS DELIVERED CONFIGURATION the 8V71 was meant to deliver its power in the 1000 to 1700 range, governed to 1950. For instance, the automatic transmission version in those days that used the VS2 Allison was made to shift up at 1700, and not shift back down until around 1150. These engines developed maximum torque of 770 ft lbs around 1200 rpm, the faster you rev the less the torque, dropping off significantly around 1500 rpm. Often, especially on transits, with changed injectors and the governor turned up to 2500 the engine is reconfigured to run all day at 2500 sucking fuel at an enormous rate, making lots and lots of heat. |
Bryce Gaston (Busted_knuckle)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 9:59 am: | |
Kevin, Hey don't pay no attn. We're here to help! Jimmci9 just took it personally, and even privately e-mailed me the above msg. but everyone's entitled to there own opinion! Right or wrong! His just happens to be wrong!LOL naw I'm just kidd'n he brings up some valid reasons why DD's overcharge, and some still have some good 2 stroke guys around but mostly their mechanics are young guys that only know the newer stuff, that's what is under warranty which is what they see the most of! But most of all I wouldn't take it to Tri-State Energy Services as their mechanics have some serious attitude issues! BK |
Kevin Hatch
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 12:37 pm: | |
So how can one tell if the injectors are oversized? I'll more than likely be changing engines for now untill I can get mine remanned. If the larger injectors cause overheating so much then what's the point in using them? If my existing injectors are oversized, should I use them in the donor engine? |
Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 12:51 pm: | |
Good questions, Kevin. The engine in your bus could be standard timed or advanced timed, it originally came standard timed, but could have been changed for more power. Advanced timing allows a bigger injector. The problem is if you look at what injectors are in there now you still don't know what the timing is. As an example N65's would be oversized for std timing but okay for adv timing.
People put oversized injectors for more power, but they have to be careful that they don't overfuel the engine and overheat the clyinders. To be safe on your donor engine find out what the timing is and stick to the correct size injector. It is nice if someone can tell you what it is timed at but to be sure there is a procedure to find out what the engine is timed at by using a dial indicator.
--Geoff |
Marc Bourget
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 12:53 pm: | |
NO!
Use the proper injectors/timing as advised by Geoff.
These engines have been around for years. They're very dependable and relatively efficient, if you stay away from inexpert opinions and speculation.
Almost anything you do to them will reduce efficiency (not necessarily performance) and increase cost. Sometimes, for limited operating ranges, you'll get something "better", but is it really ????.
The usual "benefit" is it satisfies small egos at large expense to the pocketbook. |
Kevin Hatch
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 1:07 pm: | |
Still wondering how to identify which injectors I have. |
Bryce Gaston (Busted_knuckle)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 1:20 pm: | |
Kevin once you get yer bus back from United look thru the parts box and find the injectors they'll have the part number on them! As for which one's are correct you'll have to rely on Geoff or someone else who knows 'cause I don't which is what especially on a 8V71, good luck oh yeah try calling Curt @ the # I emaied ya, he can give ya the scoop on the correct 1's and such he knows his stuff! Best of luck to ya! |
Phil Smith (Phil_smith)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 1:52 pm: | |
Kevin
I have an 8v-71N that I installed N65's and adv. the timing. Looking in hindsight, I wouldn't bother doing it like that again. If you have to change or replace the injectors, I'd just go with N60's and leave the timing alone. Not worth the trouble for the few extra ponies and heat. N60's ( or less ) would be just fine with no extra heat. Again, just another opinion. Just hope you can get your bus up and running again soon without too much expense. Phil in Az. |
Donald Lee Schwanke (Dontx)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 2:10 pm: | |
Another perspective Kevin, the original setup was sorta intentionally foolproof. The bus owner could hire most anyone and turn him loose with the bus. With the small injectors, not advanced timing (and only 265hp), I think it is impossible to fry or ruin an engine if it has some oil and coolant. Adding a couple of turbos and jacking it up to 400 hp makes it imperative you have a pyro, tach, and an eye on them both.
In your case where different band members may be driving, might be best to stick with the original foolproof design, makes it far easier for you to sleep while the drummer is driving.. |
Bryce Gaston (Busted_knuckle)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 5:53 pm: | |
Well put Don!
By the way do ya'll know what ya call a BASS player who doesn't have a girlfriend? |
john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 6:19 pm: | |
You can tell what injectors you have by looking at the1/2 inch round tag on each injector. Will be stamped plainly such as N65. Color of tag tells what style it is such as BROWN, WHITE, RED, etc. It can be determined whether you have standard or advanced timing by reading the overhaul manual...this can be determined with a dial indicator and following the instructions in the book. |
Kevin Hatch
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 6:26 pm: | |
"In your case where different band members may be driving, might be best to stick with the original foolproof design, makes it far easier for you to sleep while the drummer is driving.."
I actually do all of the driving, and I'm the drummer ;) lol! I understand exactly what you're saying though Don.
"By the way do ya'll know what ya call a BASS player who doesn't have a girlfriend?"
I dunno, what? |
Bryce Gaston (Busted_knuckle)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 6:37 pm: | |
homeless! |
Kevin Hatch
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 6:54 pm: | |
HA!
I think that probably goes for all of us! |
DMDave
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 7:11 pm: | |
OK! The drummer is the best driver in our group! |
Kevin Hatch
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 7:57 pm: | |
Yeah. It sounds pretty crappy, but I don't really trust the others that much...as far as the driving goes. We had an old van give up much like the bus has, under one of the other guys watch. I remember him waking me up and saying, "Kevin, the temp. gauge is all the way maxed out" as he drove down the highway 70mph with the cruise controll set, kinda casually tapping on the gauge. "What should I do?" he asked me! I told him kinda sternly to get the freaking thing pulled over and shut down like RIGHT NOW! That episode resulted in a blown head gasket and a bent connecting rod. Since then I'm the only driver. Besides since we got the bus, I'm the only one who even knows how to drive it. I really should teach at least one of them how to drive it, just in case. |
bu
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 8:08 pm: | |
Well ya got plenty of time to go over every thing and let 'em get the feel of it by having 'em sit in the drivers seat check'n gages and watch'n mirrors and occassionally you could yell hey watch out for that old lady cross'n the road! LOL But on a serious note yes it'd be good to have a back up driver who already knows about it before it's an emegency that someone else drive cause yer sick or who knows what! |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 6:31 am: | |
Another good reason for overheating any DD is failure to maintain the cooling system.
The procedure to dump the antifreez and 2 stage clean the entire cooling system is seldome followed , till AFTER the blowup.
The radiator is only a small part of the cooling system , most heat pickup is in the water INSIDE the engine passages , and the water must be free flowing and of the correct volume.
Overheat the INSIDE of the engine & you usually loose the heads first, cylinders next.
The antifreez folks suggest every 2 years , but some coaches havent been cleaned since the last engine outof frame rebuild.
Summer is coming!
2 part flush, & rinse , rinse , rinse +Distilled water and at least 35% antifreez might cost ,
but LOTS less than an engine swop , on the road!!
Works for me , 3 years & FLUSH!!!
FAST FRED |
Kevin Hatch
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 12:51 pm: | |
Well I payed my bill at United Engines for their diagnosis ($850). They still hadn't even worked me up a price for any repair, and the bus was taking up one of their bays. I sure would have figured since it was taking up their space they would have at least given me a quote. I'm having it towed back home to my mech. where we'll look at it and determine our exact course of action. Probably still going the donor engine route for now. Wish me well! |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 07, 2006 - 12:10 am: | |
Kevin, I wish you luck!
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
Suncatcher
Ketchikan, Alaska |