| Author |
Message |
Bob Wies (Ncbob)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 8:29 am: | |
I am planning to install a pre-oiler system on the (8V71)engine of my MC5A and prefer to use a 24V gear type pump instead of an accumulator type oiler.
The one fitting I'm having a problem locating is the one which goes into the oil pan drain plug. I'd prefer one which would allow me to tap into the oil pan drain (for the pump supply) and still allow the drain plug to be installed (into the fitting) for future oil drain without disturbing the fitting to pan seal.
http://enginegearonline.com/fiforfomoen.html offers one ($36.00) but it is only a 90 degree fitting which would need to be removed for each oil change defeating the ability of a consistant seal with the pan.
Does anyone know a supplier who could furnish a fitting such as what I've described? The Oil Pan
plug thread appears to be 1/2-13...is this correct?
Any info on a solid check valve would also be helpful. At this time I'm thinking of a 3/8" Strat-o-flow valve simply because I have one.
Thanks in advance. Bob |
Marc Bourget
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 9:44 am: | |
There's a body of opinion that supports a different pick-up point, for pre-oiler pump supply, than the bottom of the oil reservoir.
First point is pre-oiler failure modes, if something hits the pre-oiler apparatus or faults the line to the pump, you lose (virtually) all your oil capacity. It'd be nice to have an installation that leaves enough oil in the pan sufficient to maintain pressure at the bearings and other expensive pieces. An oil level sender is a good idea in such case.
Second point is engine failure modes, all the "caca" in the engine goes to the bottom, this includes broke pieces, grunge and coolant if you're so unlucky to cause or suffer a cracked head. Picking up your pre-oiler supply from this point wouldn't do those same bearings any good either. |
Bob Wies (Ncbob)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 10:01 am: | |
I've applied a great deal of thought to this, Marc, and ruled out putting the pickup fitting in the side (below the normal oil level...but above the 'caca' line..because that would mean an unnecessary removal and reinstallation of the oil pan on an engine with less than 5K miles on it.
My 4WD truck had a 'brush guard' to protect the oil pan from being smashed during 'boondocking' and wasn't a problem to remove....6 bolts and an Impact tool. I'm considering that too.
I doubt I'll have much sludge in the oil pan base because I believe in Premium Oil Filters and frequent oil changes. How much is 7 gallons of oil, more often, going to add to the cost of operation?
I appreciate your input. I've given many hours and days totally concentrating on this modification and am totally convinced that I don't want to start that bear one more time without the pre-oiler.
Thanks, Bob |
Bryce Gaston (Busted_knuckle)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 10:05 am: | |
Bob, Marc brings up the exact point I'd be worried about! Although I've never had any experience with a r=pre-oiler system, I believe I'd tap into the side of the oil pan about 1/3rd of the way up give or take a little! Just my 2 cents! BK |
Bob Wies (Ncbob)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 10:16 am: | |
I have to agree with both opinions and may well bite the bullet and remove the pan for the mod before I'm finished. But for the short term, because I have to go to CHI to pick up the bus in about 2 weeks, I will probably opt for the oil drain tap and make the change when I get home.
I so fiercely believe in the pre-oiler that I want to take the equipment to do the installation with me and take a few hours to install it before I move the bus.
The guy I bought it from has a great big barn and a pit where it's stored so making this mod and doing a fresh oil change won't be that much of a problem...only time...and I have lots of that.
Thanks guys. Bob |
captain ron (Captain_ron)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 10:20 am: | |
How about a compremise? Since your insistant on going through the bottom of the oil pan, put a longer tube on the fitting that protrudes further up into the oil pan so that you get the same effect as going through the side. I'm sure you can get a longer threaded fitting or get a tube brazed or welded to fitting that would work. |
Bob Wies (Ncbob)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 10:31 am: | |
Hey Ron, it's been a while. Tom and I were talking about dropping over to see your Dad, the other day.
Can't see any valid reason not to give your idea a try. Sure would keep the 'caca' out of the pump.
Several heads are better'n one (especially if it's made of Lignum Vitae)!
Thanks guys, Bob |
Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 11:18 am: | |
Bob-- What makes you such a believer in pre-oilers? I think they are a waste of time and money 90% of the time, with the exceptions being a newly rebuilt engine and one that has sat for an extremely extended period of time. One of the sales pitches for pre-oilers is that most of an engine's wear occurs at initial startup, but what they don't tell you is that this wear is in the clyinders where a pre-oiler doesn't work. All the moving parts and bearings in an engine retain a film of oil that is plenty of lubrication until the oil pressure delivers fresh oil.
The best thing you can do for your engine is pre-heat it, not pre-oil it.
--Geoff
'82 RTS AZ |
Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 12:09 pm: | |
Bob sent me a personal message stating his reasoning for the pre-oiler which has made me realize I was hijacking his thread! The subject deserves discussion but not here.
Sorry Bob
--Geoff |
truthhunter@shaw.ca
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 12:58 pm: | |
O gee whiz , nothing wrong with your constructive criticism Geoff. What you said is very correct and accurate. Would value hearing a content edited version of the Bobs "email of chastisement" on the pros for a pre oiler,Perhaps we all might understand the benifits of this modification. As are we not all typing/observing within this wounderfully free public forum for some sort of great information exchange? aren't we???? |
motorcoach1
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 1:22 pm: | |
I can understand why someone would want to put in a preoiler system . but my thoughts are it's just peace of mind when starting it up after sitting for a while. I used to put them on after rebuilds and were removed after the install and startup procedures, but were never left on the vehicle to go on the road. The main concern was that the oil was pumped through a filter(not the engine main filter) even though it was left on and changed too- then back into the engine and then sent to be analyzed to be sure that all working parts were not grinding or some fluke of nature was taking place, and could certify that the rebuild was worthy. As to the cylinder walls being dry after sitting I sprayed marvelous mystery oil in the hand hole covers while slow cranking the engine over - do this if your going to let it sit and just before starting a day before running it really helps the walls out. |
motorcoach1
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 1:24 pm: | |
The parts your looking for may be available from a hydraulic supply house they have those special fittings |
Bob Wies (Ncbob)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 3:04 pm: | |
Geoff, you weren't 'hijacking my thread'...and by no stretch of the imagination was my personal E-mail to you meant to be inferred as "chastisement".
Post my E-mail if you choose and allow the jury to
come in with a verdict.
I am sensitive to stepping on people's feelings and being a 'newbie' I don't feel that I have the right to come onto the board and make like an Engineer...which I'm not.
If an apology is in order from me...please accept one if anyone feels it is owed, as my feeling is that before I offend anyone I'll withdraw from the Board and leave everyone as I found them...congenial and knowledgable.
Bob
NCbob |
Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 4:04 pm: | |
Thank you, Bob, no apology necessary. To everyone else, Bob sent me very nice email, and if anything, he was very carefull not to offend. I do not want to post it because then it would change the topic to the virtues of a pre-oiler instead of an installation problem.
This thread is going the wrong direction, the last thing I want is for Bob to leave us. Let's just get back to the discussion-- installation of the pre-oiler.
--Geoff |
Bryce Gaston (Busted_knuckle)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 5:49 pm: | |
Bob you ain't goin' nowhere! It's already in yer blood! I had no doubt that yer e-mail to Geoff was kind and informative yer too much of a gentleman for anything else!
Geoff you to are a true gent, and an asset to the board I always look forward to yer information as I've certianly learned things I'd never had a clue about, that's what this board is about! Also Geoff at least Bob doesn't hide his e-mail address in his post then e-mail people off the board cussing them out because of a differance of opinion! BK |
Tim Strommen (Tim_strommen)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 6:21 pm: | |
There would be a point then though with the installation method of a pre-oiler that may reflect the thread itself.
There are a few high wear points in an engine that are typcally lubed by the oil circulation:
1) Shear-loads/dragging points (valve bearings, main crank bearings, cylynder rings)
2) Rotating contact parts (gears, cams, timing levers)
These should all be getting a good squirt of oil to reduce the wear until the engine oil pump builds enough pressure to take over. It seems to me like the original oil system would be set up to locate all of these parts during typical function. It also seems to me that the pre-lube device should charge the same lines and lubricate the surfaces typically done during engine operation.
Based on that observation, it would seem like you would want your pre-lube system to pick-up from the same place as your engine does already, and output from the same place your engine does already. Further, you would want the pre-lube to be filtered so as not to recirculate enigne contaminats. There's one place I would see that could do this - right at the engine's oil pump. I see two ways you could do this:
1) Use the engine's exsisting oil pump, and find a way (hopefully fail-safe) to drive it and have the engine take over when it begins running (I envision this like a dual over-rev clutch like twin-engine helicopters have on the engine output shafts).
2) Bypass only the pump - using check valves to prevent back-flow and maintain pressure. This should charge the lines before the engine is run - however you may need to significantly modify the oil channles in the block. This also could cause a malfunction to block the oil paths preventing your enigne from getting the lube it desparately needs.
Alternatively you would might want to duplicate the entire lubrication system to prevent a pre-lube failure from killing your block. In either case it would probably be a good idea to go through 'da-book for your block and look at the oil circuit diagram and physical location of pump and its mechanical components to judge the feasability of any of these approaches. You may find with the "double-up" approach that the space inside the block is fairly confined, and you'll need a lot of external oil paths to get to all of the parts. I'd think that the oil pan and the valve covers would be two places that could access most of these high-wear parts without permanent modification to the actual engine block. By doubling up the lube system you could get protection from an oil pump failure that could save your engine (this would require a continuous duty oil pump - not a short duty cycle pump like those most frequently avialable).
Just my two cents - my only critical advice would be that you'll want to make sure that any changes you do to these old engines don't interfere with the original function of the engine (check your physical clearances too).
Cheers!
-Tim Strommen |
Ed Jewett (Kristinsgrandpa)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 9:14 pm: | |
If you are that concerned about engine wear then use an external pump and an external sump. Fill it with a qt. of new oil and turn it on just before you start cranking. Unless your engine uses no oil at all you'll never overfill (barring a series of short runs)and won't have to worry about dirty oil, filters etc.
A qt. or so should be enough to give everything a good coat of oil. It might also be a good way to add oil.
Not a very good idea but something to think about.
Ed |
JR
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 10:30 pm: | |
Bob, Mr. Murphy is going to get you! Sorry about altering your thread, but, tapping into the engine lubrication system adds one more potential failure layer. Who runs pre-oilers? I'm familiar with them, but unaware of who's proving the need for them. Not aware of anyone having failures related to oil flow at cold startup. A motorcoach engine will last longer than most of us...even when worn out, as long it has oil, and water. A block heater would appear to be more useful.
Anything that taps into the pressure side of the oiling system could cause catsrophic failure if a line broke, or check valve failed.
Are they available in 24V? Isn't an MC5 24V? What am I missing? Perhaps I need one too!
I'd change the oil and filters, fuel filters, and set sail for NC. I trust the brakes, tires and other components have been kept up and the coach has been in recent use. An 800 mile trip in a used coach can be a serious adventure.
BTW, I'm not sure about an 8V71, but my 6V92TA oil pan has a pipe plug in the pax side of the oil pan. It would serve as a pickup point that would be above the ca-ca and no fab required. Make certain that the battery master is off, and that the starter doesn't have power when you pull the starter, which I believe you'll have to remove to get the pan off...if you pull it. I'd have to look at that, but the starter had to be removed from my engine for clearance on a dolley. I can chec that tomorrow for you.
Good Luck on your project! JR |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 12:41 am: | |
Remco makes and sells a transmission oil pump, to circulate
the tranny oil in an automatic while it's being towed.
Although the pump and entire kit can be used to circulate
engine oil as well, if all you need is the pan fitting, that's the
place to order it from...
Isn't there an extra tap on your oil filter assembly? If so,
why not pull the oil from there? |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 6:19 am: | |
A pump for pre oiling is NOT required.
If you install an accumulator tank , of about a gallon cap with an electric valve , you have a pre oiler.
After starting the engine open the valve and let the accumulator pressurize with what is probably a DD's highest oil pressure.
Then close the valve , and shut down the engine. Add oil to the full mark.
On any start that you wish to have pre oil simply switch the accumulator valve to open, wait till you see oil pressure rise and then fall, and crank away, thre engine IS pre lubed.
KISS
FAST FRED |
Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 9:51 am: | |
If you're going to do it FF's way, use a one way check valve aimed at the accumulator tank, and a solenoid that bypasses it hooked to a dash button.
That way it will always fill itself to the highest pressure when your engine is running without human forgetfulness in the way...
I agree with FF, sure simpler than a pump...more reliable, etc... |
truthhunter@shaw.ca
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 1:32 pm: | |
Hats off to FF once again, how much simpler and cheaper can it get than this. If I could find any cost effective excuse to justify a pre-oiler that would be it. I would not go the "Keep It Supper Sophisticated" way of remote operation (sorry GS, your idea is good, just not for this application) as any dormant rest period that could warrant a per-lube start up would obvioulsy justify starting the engine from the button located at the back of the bus(just to the left & above the engine on MCI) to also allow one to verify oil pressure on the "mechanical/steam" style oil pressure gauge,while one observes for oil/ coolant/exhaust leaks and belts,mounts, listen for unusual engine noise,etc. After all are we not already back there doing a pre-trip fluid check ,espicaly if it has been dormant.
Use a empty dispoable propane bottle with the orfice drilled out, for a free acumilater tank????
Is this not just one more example of why we welcome all free speech on this wonderful board without inhibition or regimented structure. Let the imaginative juices flow, even on "stupid" ideas,and off topic naysaying; we should do our best to leave the hand raising nonsense in the university theater were the objective is conformity/subjectgation for professional profit not un-capitalized idea and imporvised experiences practical knowledge can be exchanged. It is certain progress when we can all do it our way! |
Tim Strommen (Tim_strommen)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 1:39 pm: | |
Elegant and Simple (not to mention Damn Sexy!)
FF: Could we explore this a bit more? I'm sure that details like accumulator placement, orientation, volume, and plumbing locations all play a part in a successful accumulator pre-lube system.
I'm already setting up an automatic sequencer for the 'ol '92, and this setup you describe is easy enough to do without a lot of block modifications...
Speak on...
Cheers!
-Tim Strommen |
Russ Barnes (Neoruss)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 4:19 pm: | |
FWIW,
Just go to eBay, search for prelubers or preoilers. They are used all over for stock cars, off road jeeps, etc. I bought two (one for genset and one for main engine) since I plan on being a pole to pole user and it may be well over a month between starts. And yes they have the solenoid and there are shut off valves that can manually be turned so the solenoid doesn't leak. Don't reinvent the wheel when the solution has been around for decades. |
Geoff (Geoff)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 6:21 pm: | |
I did as Russ suggested and found a couple of nice prelubers, and designed for engine oil, unlike water system accumulators. |
Greg Roberts (Gregeagle20)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 8:58 pm: | |
Accumulator tanks are nothing new and have been used for decades in industrial applications. Like everything mechanical, these systems should be engineered properly so that you do not damage your engine. For instance, if the proper orifice is not installed on the charging circuit of the accumulator you will starve the engine somewhat while the bladder is charging. Generally it is also beast to have a higher flowing circuit (bigger orifice) on the pre-lube circuit so that proper pressure and flow is reached to allow an effective prelube. Keep it simple but not stupid. Do some research and copy someone that has made this work. |
motorcoach1
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 9:48 pm: | |
On an old Gray marine 671 was a machined fitting off the oil pump that fed oil to the engine off a resivor 10 gallons. the engine pumped oil into the resivor that stayed under pressure as per fred said. In the event the the engine lost oil pressure the system selonoid would activate and shoot oil in the engine and at the same time shut the engine down. It could be redesigned to be a peroiler too. IT also had a pressurized air cylinder to blow the oil in the engine if needed, much like a dive tank 400 lbs pressure. no pump required |
Greg Roberts (Gregeagle20)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 10:09 pm: | |
The industrial accumulator tanks have a nitrogen (some use air) filled bladder inside that acts as the "pump" to push oil out of the bladder after the oil pressure drops below bladder pressure or and in some cases, after a solenoid is activated. Some of these systems are installed specifically on the huge industrial engine turbo-chargers so that the bladder can press oil to the turbine as it spins down and cools down to prevent bearing coking from heat soak. These systems generally have a check valve installed to focus the oil on the turbine and not the engine at the moment of a hot trip. I used to work on the oppossed piston 2-cycle submarine engines that were retrofitted with these units. |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 12:40 am: | |
Holy ^%$%. And all this, is for what?
With no "pre-oiler", how many miles/hours less is the engine
going to last? And how many miles/hours will you really be
using it?
Good grief.. It's like changing to a good diet and lifestyle
when you're 90 and lived a wild, careless life... |
Marc Bourget
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 4:39 am: | |
JTIG [John the Impatient Guy]said:
"And all this, is for what?"
For peace of mind in a restless world!
I like the idea of using the accumulator for a post oiler for the turbo - not sure it's necessary. |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 6:13 am: | |
Most folks DONT like the DD alternative (in Da Book) of going thru the preservation dance for engines Out Of Service for over 30 days,
Its expensive and takes lots of time .
I think most folks will get better engine service life by plugging the intake & exhaust on those long wet months between runs , while converting.
I worry about the cylinder walls rusting while idle , more than the low oil pressure on an infrequent start.
On my boat (6-71) I simply pull the air box covers and spray away with fogging oil.
On the "Sportscar of Coaches" my 4106,
the once a month 100+ mile run is a RELIGON.
Works for me,
FAST FRED |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 7:52 am: | |
"I worry about the cylinder walls rusting while idle , more
than the low oil pressure on an infrequent start. "
Yeah, exactly! If there was some way to "pre-lube" the
cylinder walls, it'd be worth while; it's the cylinder walls
that takes the beating.
Most bus companies have a bus or three that sit idle for
a month or more. There are slow times for every business.
School buses sit idle for months.. and near all are diesel,
down here... No-one covers the tires, or parks on plastic,
either...
Ya' think we worry about the wrong things too much? |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 5:18 am: | |
"Ya' think we worry about the wrong things too much?"
Its a matter of cash.
Hound used to replace the engines every 12 months , sometimes they got to 200,000 mostly they did not.
But the costs of the R&R and rebuild were charged to the tax payers (business expense) so the desire for reliability and free maint costs won.
Most coach owners I know are interested in "stopping the clock" , and maintaining the beast with intensive PM.
When no ownership costs can be pushed on someone else , the Quest to keep it maintained is paramount.
PM, the cost effective way to have a great ride,
Works for me
After all I have yet to meet an "engineer" that will claim the engine wore out from "too fresh oil".
FAST FRED |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 8:41 am: | |
FF-
So..... yer sayin' you've got a pre-oiler on yer bus? |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 6:27 am: | |
So..... yer sayin' you've got a pre-oiler on yer bus?
GOD NO, I prefer to DRIVE IT every month a 100 mile excursion as it keeps the rest of the systems up too.
I do change the oil & filter at 6000 miles , the Antifreez every 3 years , and seal the engine when not in use.
Grease is done with the weight off the front end , so the new King pins will last "forever".
I am sure a preoiler would be worthwhile , but the tiny motor pumps I have seen are Not near the task of 40wt oil and freezing weather.
My sugestion for an accumulator is an old car/boating trick from years ago.
But would probably be really worthwhile for anyone usind Synthetic oil , that drains off so rapidly.
FAST FRED |