| Author | Message | ||
| Bob Wies (Ncbob)
Rating: N/A |
The last two days have been spent glued to this monitor and keyboard researching everything one could find in the Archives, thanks Ian for your foresight, searching for any item connected to RVIA and NEC codes which might pertain to what we're doing. Even with the advice and inputs of the stalwarts of our community like, RJ Long, Jim Shepherd, Ian and the applied thinking and experience of DML, FF and others, I find myself firmly parked in the corner of safety and preservation of me and mine. At what point is enough and are we going to be stopped and have to pass inspections OTR by bureaucrats who might think that we're 'wire and plumb..anyway it fits' types? Nells Bells, if the 'Thought Police' are out there looking for incidents they can call "Road Rage" at the drop of a pin, are we to expect that Roadside Safety Inspections might go beyond the realm of State required Vehicle Inspections and start poking around into the innards of our electrical and plumbing systems? I'm sure, to a man, that we all are as conscientous as possible with every modification we make in our "remanufacturing" of these busses....but must we expect that in almost every state sponsored 'road block' or 'license check' that we'll have to pull over and submit to a complete inspection to see if, what we have taken so much pride in building or modifying, is going to be subject to the whims of some local inspector? Let's hope not...but it sure is food for thought! | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
Rating: N/A |
RVIA is voluntary. FMVSS is mandatory. (Federal motor vehicle safety standards.)( ie: seatbelts, lights, brakes, tires and that sort of stuff.) Now for a slanted view of the rest; Now when you get into appliances that are approved for recreational vehicle use that is a different story. There are standards by which each RV approved appliance is to be installed to which is approved by NEC and or rules for LP Gas systems used in an RV environment. Then there's always the health department, water quality, sanitation and so forth each with their own requirements. ( this usually applies to commercially made/built rv's or commercial use systems for food concessions.) One thing that just raises the hair on the back of my neck is that some people make their own sanitary holding tanks from plywood and fiberglass. It may be OK but I would bet that it would not pass a health inspection. There are approved materials for use in drinking water systems and there are not. Some can make you sick and others simply won't hold up in an RV environment, ( CPVC & PVC ){becomes brittle and gives of Vinyl Chloride [ health hazzard ]... Pex tubing is pretty safe but poly-butalene tubing is not (grey stuff once used widely). Copper is fine although can react with chemicals or water of poor quality, Copper can work harden if shaken long enough, Copper is fine for water as long as NO-Lead solder or silver solder is used. Brass is safe for fittings. Part of the water thing is that in an RV system the water sits static and usually at higher ambient temperatures for longer periods both in the tanks but in the lines and fittings. There are forms of bacteria, fungi and other nasties that can grow unless the system is disinfected and flushed on a regular basis. Always filter your water through a carbon block filter when you fill the tanks. Use chlorine added to the water to minimize growth of cysts, bacteria, fungi and other things. If you travel a lot you may find that bottled water is a much safer way to have good clean drinking and cooking water. If in doubt never drink what you are unsure of. Generally home built conversions are left alone unless there is a really valid reason for an inspection. This might be an insurance claim, lawsuit, EPA or Local health issues or things like that. In the case of fire, Then if you didn't follow the basics and something you kludged together is the reason for the fire then the liability is yours and you really don't want to go there !! Many others will know more and can add to this, Dave.... | ||
| Brian Elfert
Rating: N/A |
What about a fiberglass/plywood tank for just the grey/black tank and a manufactured plastic tank for the fresh water? Lead-based solder and poly-butalene tubing have not been used in houses for a while. Converters should not be using plumbing stuff in an RV that shouldn't go in a house for the most part. Brian Elfert | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
I really do not know if lead based solder is still commercially available. I have some but it is probably 20 or more years old. I have not heard of any type of roadside inspection for RV's, but 50 years ago I had not heard of road side inspections for trucks either. Anything can change. Richard | ||
| guy johnson (Mcigeorge)
Rating: N/A |
Just so we don't run into any confusion, on the solder-- 50/50 lead solder is widely available and widely used. You have to use 95/5 for any domestic water. The 5% is still lead. It is considered an "acceptable" amount. | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
Rating: N/A |
If the potential for inspections were real then imagine having to train all the people, Put a badge on them, give them guns and a meager annual salary. They could make more working for a dealership or conversion company and much better hours without the chance of getting shot! Heck, Look at all the members of the "Tin Can Tourists" they would have a heart attack if they were going to get inspected... wow..  Like what's the difference between a Teardrop and a HouseTruck? How could you train an inspector in so many fields and make such a system work. Unless it's a uniform set of codes that are adopted and followed by all States equally it would be such a nightmare of epic proportions. We used to have RV inspections here in Florida and was performed by authorized dealers or roving inspectors certified by the state who would apply a sticker next to the door. It only applied on new and used RV's being sold by a dealer. The biggest problem with that was that used car dealers were not trained nor equipped to really do a proper inspection. The dealers license also had to state "Recreational Vehicles". The snag was a double licensing issue, You could sell used motorvehicles (cars, trucks and motorcycles) but couldn't sell a boat or RV without the additional license and meeting the service requirements. It all adds up to double the license fee's, Insurance and other requirements by state and county codes, Then the Department of Professional Regulation had to be born and into everything... I know there are other places with bigger problems and a complete loss of concious thought processes that just make owning an RV or Bus conversion a royal pain. So far California and Canada and several of the Norteastern areas come to mind. Everybody has their own definition of what is proper and what is not. Nobody can agree even to disagree these days. I say build it, Apply as much of the standards as you can for NEC and NFPA, Use the same plumbing that the big boys use that is approved for RV use. Make your ride as safe as possible for your comfort level. Keep the D.O.T. Cops out of your hair by keeping the running gear in spec and go for it. A bed, Curtains, Porta-Pottie, Bottled water, Ice chest, food and a couple of chairs. Why complicate things? | ||
| Ed Jewett (Kristinsgrandpa)
Rating: N/A |
In the state of Ohio, if you are wiring on your coach and a state electrical inspector sees you workin on it, he can legally do an inspection. The local city inspector was going to do and inspection on my brothers coach when we were working on it, till he found out it wasn't parked within the city limits. Both of the local state inspectors are friends of mine and wouldn't hassle anyone, but lookout wherever you are. I do know that the NEC is adopted in every state in the lower 48. I have a copy of the 2005 NEC and would try to help anyone who asks. I don't know everything but I have worked with the code, as an electrician, for 38 years. Any time I have a question I get out the book and read, I don't trust my memory on a lot of things. For a while I tried posting info on anything I read that was against the code, trying to help, but it drew resentment so I quit. There are some people on here that think they know more than the people who write the code and they want to argue. The NEC is an exact document of approved wiring methods that are tried a true. Any thing that is not approved is for a good reason. Some where, sometime, and usually several times, they have not proved safe so they are not approved. It is a permissive document, if the NEC doesn't say you can do it, then you can't do it. I personally don't care how you wire your coach except for the fact that the more coaches that burn down the higher my insurance is going to be. The insurance companys are behind them and they have a lot of pull with "city hall". The only recourse we have is to find out when the state you're in adopted the NEC and swear that your coach was wired before that date. Everything done before that date is grandfathered in, unless you are re-wiring, then they can inspect the whole coach, and make you bring it up to code. As for plumbing, the only thing I know is what the plumbers/fitters at work tell me and that is that s**t won't run up-hill. Ed | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
Rating: N/A |
Must be a Union Shop....It Does run uphill, Just not real fast! I follow the NEC because it works. It's a little complicated when you get into low voltage automotive systems but the guidelines are there. That little $65.00 book is gold! | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
RVs no longer are required to comply to the NEC. The RVIA standards apply. This has previously been posted. Do an Archive search. | ||
| truthhunter@shaw.ca Rating: N/A |
In Manitoba, Canada the Office of the Fire Commissioner does the RV stickers , they look for things like CSA approved appliances, Gas certification on all propane, a vehicle safety sticker and if it is to be hard wired into the power grid (not plugged in like a "extension cord" as temporary power)then a electrical permit is required and it must be up to the code. You don't have to have a RV sticker, but it is hard to get it insured as a RV without and if you resell it as a RV without the RV sticker you are liable for a $10,000 fine. They can inspect for things , but do not unless there has been a fire or complaint and a paper trail is required as the logistics are prohibitive as DR.D points out. Make it as safe as you can figure out how to and you will have it for long and be able to sell it for more (maybe just not as a RV for registration purposes- our vehicle insurance is a mandatory public corporation/monopoly here as in several other provinces). Do your pre-trips and make sure there is nothing that will get the attention of DOT or RCMP or Municipal police and you will not have to pay there wages with a ticket. It's really simple in practice, maybe not so much in theory. | ||
| John Jewett (Jayjay)
Rating: N/A |
John MC9- I believe you have it backwards. The RVIA Standards are for "Manufacturers", not convertors like you and I, and the National Electrical Code does apply to your bus conversion motorhome. Obviously you have been misinformed. Someone may have stated that in the BNO Archives, but that doesn't necessarily make it true. Call you local state electrical inspector and put the question to him. Cheers...JJ | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
John - I suggest you do a search of the archives. Stan has been well informed of the change in NEC structure, perhaps he can direct you to the thread? The NEC now allows the RV Industry to set the parameters of the safety concerns of the electrical standards...... (Political lobbying) The plumbing standards have also been assigned to the RV Industry. (as above) | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A |
Another myth??? thanks for setting the record straight JJ | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A |
Is it the NEC that determines everything? I thought it was another agency (maybe NFPA) that determines who must comply with the NEC. Richard | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
Niles.... In my answer to "DrDave's" comment: "I follow the NEC because it works. It's a little complicated when you get into low voltage automotive systems but the guidelines are there. " I answered: "RVs no longer are required to comply to the NEC. The RVIA standards apply. " in reference specifically to his comment. Yet you choose to use sarcasm directed at me? Wazzup? Here's the NEC info: ------------- International Association of Electrical Inspectors 2005 NFPA 70 Code Panel Representatives Deleted Text Article 551 - Proposal 19-46a The specific requirements for low-voltage systems in Recreational Vehicles has been deleted Part II Low-Voltage Systems comprising 551.10(A) through (H) is deleted. The primary standard for the construction of Recreational Vehicles is NFPA 1192, Standard on Recreational Vehicles. The 2002 edition of this standard at 4.4 states that low-voltage installations, systems, and equipment shall comply with ANSI/RVIA 12V, Low-Voltage Systems in Conversion and Recreational Vehicles, and no longer references Part II of Article 551. -------------- Big chips can weigh heavy on the shoulders, can't they.... I've always chosen not to carry 'em. | ||
| Stan Rating: N/A |
I am not familiar with NEC or any other US regulators and never made any comments on them. I am familiar with manufacturing with various voltages. Although 24 volts comes under the low voltage limit, when you are pulling hundreds of amps inspectors do some careful checking, especially on temperature. When you put those same voltages and currents on open welding cables, they are not involved but they sure take a look at buried cables in a structure. | ||
| John MC9 Rating: N/A |
oops... sorry Stan.. My memory and fingers aren't working together too well... I'll have to dig through the archives and try to figure out who it was... I owe you a beer. |