| Author |
Message |
Joe (Frtnkr)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 3:23 am: | |
When I picked up my '87 Flx Metro from the transit garage and started it up it flashed, "NO GEN" on the dash. The bus AC didn't work, the heat didn't work, etc. but the light's did and the starter did too, so we drove it home. Now the 24V Generator is off the 6V71 engine it lived on and is sitting in the back of my car. I am going to get it tested, if I can, tomorrow to see if it is really bad. I had the alternater checked and it got an A+, but I am not so sure about this generator. Question is do I really need it if it is going to cost a bunch of $ to fix? I will not be using the bus A/C or heat, all though, I would not mind having the heat for de-frosting. This unit bolts directly to the engine, if that makes a difference. Also, my bus has a 24V starter, or so it says, that has always worked regardless of what the light says.
I dont know much about 24V electronics, so hit me with your best shot...Jooe |
Shawn Bennear (Lilneoplan)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 8:12 am: | |
Joe,
since that generator is gear driven off the engine (I think) i would say there would be a real bad oil leak and pressure loss without it in place.
the starter on that Flx should be a 24volt unit. You were simply running off the batteries, and thats why the lights are working.
on our flx metros, all lights except the headlights are 24 volt. they will stay lit, until the batteries die. the reason the a/c shut down is because that is a HEAVY draw and uses that generator to function. No gen, no AC.
shawn |
Pete/RTS Daytona (Pete_rtsdaytona)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 8:18 am: | |
Joe
Your 24 Generator (Delco 50DN I assume -
24 volts 270 amp) charges the 24 violt system used to start the bus -
It big output was used to run the huge heating/ac fan motors - if your not running then then perhaps you don't need all the power
but
how will you charge your 24 volt system
and
If your Flx is anything like my RTS - there may be a "24 volt run relay" - that is not working - this is a circuit to prevent the a/c fans from running if the generator is not outputing - the circuit in my RTS just looks for a minimum number of pulses from the generator "R" terminal (12 volts) of the generator to bring up this relay
Put a meter on your 24 batteries (at the battery posts) and see if the alternator is chargingh the batteries first - ooops forgot the generator is in your back seat - sorry you nmay have to put it back and test - or just let the shoptest it
Pete RTS/Daytona |
David Hartley (Drdave)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 9:42 am: | |
Most 24 volt buses have many sensors and relays that control the operation of all kinds of stuff.
The task and effort not to mention the expense to replace and rewire the whole bus in not something many converters will want to do.
My FLX metros were all 24 volt, They also had engine protection controls, relays and logic for many of the chassis functions. That all ran from the 24 volt alternator/battery system. They also had a secondary 12 volt alternator mounted on the transmission PTO which supplied power to the center of the battery chain to run radios, toll systems and keep the 12 volt headlights working.
They didn't have Vanner equalizers or ones like the RTS buses came with to maintain the 12volt section of the battey bank. So they installed a belt driven 12 volt Leece/Neville 1-wire alternator.
I didn't respond to this earlier because I haven't looked up close at an 87 Flx lately but when the person said "the other" alternator that rang a bell.
The other thing that threw me was the mention of a 6V71 engine. Never saw one in a Flx of the vintage mentioned. I had 4 of them with 6V92TA engines, Saw a few with Cummins engines but never a 6V71 (190 hp).. Oh well...
Dave... |
bruce knee (Bruceknee)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 12:01 pm: | |
The not gen light should be on when you start the bus, the A.C should not work when you start the bus. If the not gen light went out after air was up then perhaps you do not have a problem at all and just were not aware of how the system works. I know, a long shot but the way your post reads, perhaps... good luck |
David Hartley (Drdave)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 12:42 pm: | |
Bruce,
The FLX's are not wired like the MCI's with the not-gen light hooked to the low air switch.( silly engineers!)(not you-MCI!)
I used to get the not-gen light when the batteries were at full charge on one of my FLX's. Turned out I had a weak battery and it was getting a high surface voltage faster than the other. |
Joe (Frtnkr)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 7:03 pm: | |
I took it to the alternator shop today and they should have some test results Monday. I see now that I do need the generator for sure. I was looking at a friends' military truck today and it has a 24v gen too. He has a voltage regulator and a 24v to 12v inverter to charge his 12v accessory system. I talked to the alternator shop and they think it could be done with this gen too. Any of you know anything about this?
Seems like that bad boy should be able to put out some serious amps and charge my house batteries. I run a prosine 2.0 in my RV and it will move to the bus with me, could I use that to run roof top a/c and the like while running down the road? |
Mike's 4106
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 7:48 pm: | |
How much horsepower does it take to run that generator???
Would it be worth removing if I have a 12 volt bus and don't need it??? |
Joe (Frtnkr)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 8:40 pm: | |
If yours is like mine, it is oil cooled and removing it would create a massive hole for oil to run out of. I will have to use mine regardless of wether or not I use it. |
Mike's 4106
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 9:00 pm: | |
I believe that a plate about of 1/4" steel and a gasket will cover the hole and the oil line can simply be capped off.
I have had my generator off a couple of times and I can easily fabricate a cover. That is why I question the horsepower usage.
Anyone done this with any power gains or Mpg gains??? |
David Hartley (Drdave)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 11:43 pm: | |
Joe,
Unless your Pro Sine runs on 24 volts you still would have to get the 24 volts converted down to 12 volts with something like a Vanner Equalizer, However they don't give you a high current 12 volt source to put heavy loads on. Most are 25 to 70 amps and very expensive.
But you could use the 12 volt auxillary alternator that runs off the transmission PTO and a/c drive to charge your house batteries if you put a battery isolator or disconnect relay between the alternator and house battery bank.
The 12 volt units that I had were good for 150 to 200 amps..
The catch is that you actually have that auxillary alternator hanging over the side of the transmission with a belt down to the PTO pulley.
I have not looked an an 87 recently and don't remember.
I still want to know the answer to what engine you have in the bus? If there's a turbo sitting on top of the engine you may have a 6V92TA, The easy way to tell is look for the pulley located on the front of the lower cylinder head towards the radiator. It should say 6V92 on it. It's about 5 inches is diameter.
Dave..... |
Joe (Frtnkr)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 2:40 am: | |
The generator came off a 6V71 turbo, and is going on a 6V71 turbo. I know that sounds strange and all but it is true. I'll check the prosine manual an make sure, but I have never seen anything related to 24V electrical in that book before. So devices that convert 24v to 12v are expensive and inneffective?
I removed the AC compressor and now have a short belt going from the PTO to the 12V alternator, or at least I will soon. Should I add another alternatror or something in that empty space? |
David Hartley (Drdave)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 5:06 am: | |
Joe,
A Delco 50DN Gear driven (generator as you call it) is really and alternator. It has an external voltage regulator mounted remotely somewhere. It is usually a black box with 3 terminals on it.
Can you send or post pictures of this 6V71 Turbo? I have never seen one.
I have seen 6V71 marked valve covers on 6V92 engines but what you are saying is just too wierd and I gotta see one. If it's actually in an 87 Grumman/Flx Metro 870 that is even wierder since the 6V71 was out of production by that time.
Sorry if I am seeming goofy here....
Dave... |
Joe (Frtnkr)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 6:26 pm: | |
Dave, I would be happy to show you a picture, no one I have talked to has seen on on a metro, but apparantly Blacksburg, va transit special ordered them that way...
http://www.publicsurplus.com/IANAuction?ianac=picviewer&auc=114232&docid=211058
This engine will go in my bus next week. The old one is out, they juat have to put the new radiator on it...
Here is my bus...
http://www.publicsurplus.com/IANAuction?ianac=picviewer&auc=113342&docid=208488
The only reason I call it a generator is because that is what the manual calls it. I understand that it acts just like a generator, but I am trying to figgure out just what I can use it for other than charging my starting batteries |
FAST FRED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 18, 2006 - 4:56 am: | |
" but I am trying to figgure out just what I can use it for other than charging my starting batteries"
Hook it up to a small Honda and with a 3 stage V regulator you will have the worlds fastest battery charger.
With a Quality inverter it will run 2 air cond.
FAST FRED |
David Hartley (Drdave)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 18, 2006 - 1:57 pm: | |
I had posted an answer and number of questions to you about the serial number on the engine.
I spent 3 hours digging for the info and 45 minutes typing.
The post was deleted by boss nut is the only explanation that I for the post vanishing.
I will not even bother to waste me time anymore on this BB if the BOSS don't like something.
Joe... You are on your own... |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 18, 2006 - 3:10 pm: | |
DrDave, with all the BS that he let run on yesterday, I suspect I@N is not to blame. Of course, he might not have been around yesterday, but I was under the impression he had a couple of moderators sitting out here to prevent something like that tirade continuing. I know I certainly would have stopped it if I would have had the ability.
That said, I have never seen I@N really delete something unless it was really bad. So maybe he screwed up somehow. I know I do sometime.
As a tip, I usually type something like you are talking about in Word then paste it in. I usually save the document so that I have access to it in the future. Just my way of being overly cautious. LOL
Hang in there. We need you and love having you on the boards.
Richard |
Joe (Frtnkr)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 19, 2006 - 2:22 am: | |
I never knew a bus could arouse this kind of passion in the heart's of men until I joined this forum. But at the same time, I have never received this much solid technical advice based on personal experience and smarts on other forums/BB's either. Something to be said for passion, eh? Anyway, David, I figure anything that took 3 hours researching would be worth sharing, so if you care to pass on what you learned, feel free to drop me a line at joe@lamarmurphy.com anytime. If you do I will make it my personal responsibility to spend at least 3 hours lending my perspective and knowledge back to the BB. It may not be much in the realm of converting, but I can google like crazy and hold a wealth of knowledge on subjects like veggie oil conversion and chihuahuas. Regards to all posters and moderators alike, I doff my cap as a student of bus conversion, care, and feeding...Joe |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 8:52 am: | |
Joe -
Re:
"-He has a voltage regulator and a 24v to 12v inverter to
charge his 12v accessory system.
-Seems like that bad boy should be able to put out some
serious amps and charge my house batteries. I run a prosine
2.0 in my RV and it will move to the bus"
You would need a DC to DC voltage -converter-, to go from
24 to 12. The prices aren't staggering for these devices.
www.powerstream.com
www.axiomatic.com
You would lack regulation for the charging of the batteries,
if you charge using a converter....
But...you could use a conventional 110v battery charger to charge
the batteries, with the power supplied by your inverter....
It's easier of course, to use an additional 12v alternator to
charge the 12v battery bank. |