| Author |
Message |
Ron Leiferman (Ron_in_sd)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 4:19 pm: | |
I have heard of some stories of late of people having trouble with DOT requiring them to have CDL and comercial plates on their motorhomes. This is happening to people that use the motorhomes for towing their race cars. Most have been the toter home/truck conversions but I have heard stories of Bus conversions and large Class As getting pulled over due to air brakes.
I have a 86 Prevost LeMirage XL with a factory hitch rated at 10,000 lbs. and tow a enclosed 20 ft trailer rated at 10,400 lbs. Total weight of loaded trailer is 6,000 lbs. Inside the trailer is a SCCA Club race car. For the most part, I do not earn prize money but I could get free tires, oil, or car parts from an event sponsor. Some races do have contingency sponsors based on your finish and if you use their parts. I have never made a profit from any race. SCCA Club racing is a hobby for me.
Based on the information that I have found is that the Fed are forcing the states to crack down on vehicles rated higher then 10,000 lbs. They are also cracking down on vehicles that may be used for business use also. The definition of business use is VERY open and vague.
Here is from some information I found:
"The International Registration Plan (IRP) is an agreement among the states to uniformly administer registration laws for commercial vehicles that travel interstate. The IRP agreement defines recreational vehicle as being exempt from commercial registration when used by and individual or his/her family for recreational purposes. A vehicle used in conjunction with a business endeavor does not meet this definition. A business endeavor can be defined by monetary investments made with the expectation that some return on this investment will occur."
Then:
ANY commercial vehicle used in a business endeavor (see above) requires a class "A" license. (Log books, max drive time, etc., and do not forget the IRP above is FEDERAL -- ALL states if you cross a state line) if it is over 10,000 lbs GVWCR -- That means Gross Vehicle Weight COMBINED RATING -- Yes, motorhome, trailer, car, tools, spares, + PEOPLE has to be UNDER 10,001 lbs. If you are driving a vehicle that requires a commercial license, then THAT vehicle MUST be registered as commercial.
Because the vehicle is commercial, and driven across state lines, you MUST have a Motor Carrier Permit. Because you have a MCP you must do the whole IFTA (International Fuel Tax Authority) B.S. which is a permit, full recording of miles, where, when, tax paid, etc. AND file QUARTERLY returns with the IFTA.
They are also cracking down on HAZMAT laws. This effects people that have a second take for genset. The maximum we can transport (without needing endorsements and placards) is 440 POUNDS aggregate (material + container) TOTAL of gasoline (maximum individual container size of 8 gallons, but must be "approved" container), Nitrogen, and CO2 (max container of 220 pounds). ALSO: a racing fuel cell OR a gas tank is "not an approved container" for gasoline transportation on the highway (NOT JOKING), and it's over 8 gallons which is the container max limit).
I know that their are some people that do abuse the motorhome rules with their totor homes and 3 to 4 car stacker trailers but I don't feel I am pushing the rules. |
Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 5:17 pm: | |
Best thing you can do is find out the EXACT laws of your state (state you are licensed in) and have that info on hand when you are pulled over.
In Va. I have already had to argue the CDL requirement with a couple of hillbilly cops. I have the related code pages printed and laminated to hand to them. (They get kinda flusterd, but o'well)
Dale |
Ron Leiferman (Ron_in_sd)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 5:35 pm: | |
South Dakota does have laws exceptions lower levels of motorsports. The trouble is that when you cross the state line fed laws come into effect. That is what the states are using the crack down. Fed laws do have excemptions for motorhomes but this is also where the above laws come into effect. |
herman
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 6:09 pm: | |
A link to the text that you cite would be appreciated.
Anyhow, one can do all kinds of things with words. Let's take the following excerpt:
"
A business endeavor can be defined by monetary investments made with the expectation that some return on this investment will occur.
"
Well, one could argue that RVing itself fits this definition of business endeavor: one certainly invests money, and arguable expects some return, albeit not necessarily financial.
Also, what exactly is meant as "can be defined"? That's unusual language for a law or a regulation; typically "is" or "shall" is used. Given "can", one could then say "'can' is not 'must'", or some such.
The word "expectation" is also a goodie; if you're a lousy racer, wouldn't it be 'unreasonable' (whatever that means) to "expect" to make a return on your investment? What if you asserted that you would never accept any prize money? Hell, I could assert that 'expectation' is in general an absurd thing. Also, the word "will" is ripe; just clain to not be able to predict the future, and that therefore "will" is just not in your vocabulary.
For that matter, what about:
"
The International Registration Plan (IRP) is an agreement among the states...
"
Umm, how does an "an agreement among the states" end up being titled "International"?
Check out this link:
http://www.aamva.org/IRP/
which speaks of "International Registration Plan, Inc.", undertitled as "A Subsidiary of the American Association of Motor Vheicle Administrators". |
Brian Elfert
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 6:36 pm: | |
I've heard of this happening for several years now. DOT is considering racing a business since most races have a monetary award. A commercial venture must have CDL and all that for the RV.
Apprently some of the big money racers were driving RVs without CDLs and that is why DOT is cracking down.
It sucks for the person who races as a hobby, but the big boys ruined it for them.
Brian Elfert |
niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 7:43 pm: | |
Do you file and pay taxes on the income?
Do you take deductions on the expenses?
Is your endeavor incorporated?
Is your bus titled and insured in a name other than your personal name?
Do you have more than 15 seats on your bus?
Do you not have 'private coach'or a RVIA sticker posted on your bus?
Do you have a professional signature on your bus (such as XXXXX Racing)?
If you can answer NO to all the above you should have NO problems with REASONABLE law enforcement agencies - FWIW |
Jon W.
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 8:42 pm: | |
I think Niles has gotten to the heart of this issue.
Entertainers coaches and the like are clearly commercial and the driver's need a CDL and current medical.
But if your coach is registered to you, and not a business, and it does not have signage on the coach or trailer that would signal a commercial venture then the laws of the state the coach is registered in prevail, and some DO require a class B non commercial, but most just require a driver license.
There are some new coach owners who are registering the coaches in tax friendly states such as Montana to avoid sales taxes or high registration fees. Those Montana registrations are LLC or Sub S corporations and that alone may trigger a need for a commercial CDL.
But how many have ever been stopped while driving the bus? In 16 years and now over 250,000 miles I have never been stopped and asked to show my driver license. Damn shame because I have a Class A and a P endorsement. (sorry for bragging) |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 8:47 pm: | |
"The IRP agreement defines recreational vehicle as being
exempt from commercial registration when used by and
individual or his/her family for recreational purposes.
A vehicle -used in conjunction with- a business endeavor
does -not- meet this definition."
Hmmm....
If you're going to tow a "business endeavor", you're using
your tow vehicle "in conjunction with" that "business endeavor".
Like anything else.... Keep a low profile and fuggetaboutit..
It doesn't pertain to us abnormal bus crazed fools. |
JR
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 9:45 pm: | |
Niles got to the heart of the issue with his first two statements...taxes and deductions.
That's what the gubberment is after. "Hobby" racers with a budget...and high buck race teams using "RV"s to avoid paying commercial fees.
Best, JR |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 10:19 pm: | |
Well..... It's a bit more than that...
The guys hauling cars all over the country for a living, are
on the road a whole helluvalot more than an RVr. The more
you're on the road, the more vulnerable you become to be
involved in an accident. And those "in business", drive a lot
faster, and sleep a whole lot less than us; time is money, to them.
So.... Why shouldn't they be subjected to the conformance of
CDL licensing and other regulatory requirements? Let -them-
keep the heat off -us-. |
Casper4104
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 9:03 am: | |
I use my bus as a portable Motel room. When working out of town, I drive the coach to the job, do my work and then crash in the bus instead of the Holiday Inn Express.
I work the occasional weekend as a self employed contractor, teaching motorcycle safety courses for the state, usually at locations 1-1/2 to 3 hours from home. The format is that I drive to the course site on Friday afternoon and teach classroom 6 to 10pm, teach riding exercises 8am to 2pm on saturday, and teach riding and administer the exam 8am to 2pm on sunday - then drive the bus home. Using the bus saves me 2 nights in hotels.
I am paid a flat fee for the service I provide and I will receive a Form 1099 at the end of the year with a summary of what i've earned. My venture is not incorporated/business licensed/etc., except of course my certification as an Instructor. I'm a self employed private individual.
I am aware that if my earnings exceed a certain amount I will need to send in "Quarterly Estimated" income tax withholding dollars, but looking at the schedule for this summer, it doesn't look like I'll make that much money this year.
My answers to Niles' questions:
Do you file and pay taxes on the income?
Yes - my personal income tax.
Do you take deductions on the expenses?
Yes - mileage at the approved rate -or- fuel costs for the trips where I use the bus (with reciepts of course).(First year with the bus, not sure how I'll play it yet. Probably just deduct mileage, which I could do if I drove my car with no questions asked(I could also deduct the dreaded hotel costs if I had any)).
Is your endeavor incorporated?
Nope - self employed contractor.
Is your bus titled and insured in a name other than your personal name?
Nope - in my name, titled as an RV.
Do you have more than 15 seats on your bus?
I can seat 15 people on couches/beds/dinette etc., but not 15 "seats", no.
Do you not have 'private coach'or a RVIA sticker posted on your bus?
Yes - "Private Coach"
Do you have a professional signature on your bus (such as XXXXX Racing)?
Nope - just a big white whale.
I think I'm with John on this one. Technically it could be argued that this is "In conjunction with", but I'll just keep the low profile and fuhgeddaboutit. I could probably deduct half of my total bus expenses, since about 1/2 my use of the bus is for this purpose, but that's just asking for an IRS audit and for the ICC/IFTA/IRP guys to come breathing down my neck.
"Good afternoon ossifer" - "Where ya' going?" - "Springfield" - "What's in Springfield?" - "Good fishin'". (Technically true, excellent fishing there).
Interesting stuff.
Casper4104 |
Donald Lee Schwanke (Dontx)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 9:35 am: | |
Sometimes, I think we go to extremes to avoid simple things. A CDL is easy to obtain, log books are very cheap, why make such a fuss about it? ANY officer will be impressed if you jump out with your cdl and logbook in hand.
Another point, IF you are losing money on the venture, and reporting such to IRS, the fact that you DID have a CDL and deducted bus expenses is a good thing towards proving you were not just in a loss producing hobby, but had the trappinsgs of an attempt to operate a business. |
Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 10:03 am: | |
Except what about (wow, a "what-if" from ME!!!) the fact that if you have a CDL it opens you to a million more rules and laws that a cop can hassle you about, that he could not hassle you for if you only had a simple drivers license.
For starters the alcohol level limit is what 2 times less in California at least.. and you are required to have physicals, random drug tests, etc...not that It would matter to me because I'd pass all that just fine, but the issue with me is that it's just more little ways "they" invade your personal time and space in the name of safety. None of us would be better drivers, we'd just have different paperwork, and from then on we'd be forced to wear our pants a few inches lower on the backside.
We've been thru this all in the archives more than once.
Stuff like that keeps me from even considering it....
(Message edited by boogiethecat on June 23, 2006) |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 10:18 am: | |
A CDL is fairly easy to get... sure... and along with it, comes
the compliance with all the legalities... An accident becomes
an Federal investigation, one speeding ticket too many costs
you the license.. Blood tests, urine samples, blood pressure
testing requirements.... Log book scrutiny...
Yuppers, that's what I want to be involved with, just to
drive my own bus conversion ..... </sarcasm> |
Marc Bourget
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 10:32 am: | |
Seem to be forgetting the "bump" that comes with commercial operations which would argue for commercial insurance. RVs enjoy a favorable advantage in insurance premiums.
Also, in California, with a CDL, you're no longer entitled to select traffic school as a means of disposing of a traffic ticket. |
Jon W.
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 11:25 am: | |
At what point did my CDL change the laws I have to follow when on the road with everybody else when I drive a personal vehicle? It did not.
There is a positive note for having a CDL. I get a large discount on my insurance because I have one. Apparently the insurance company like to insure people that can prove they are qualified to drive large commercial type vehicles. |
Marc Bourget
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 11:53 am: | |
Jon W.
While valid, and outlines an advantage to purely recreational use, your observation may misdirect the point of distinguishing between "recreational" and "commercial". (Just an observation not a rebuke!)
As far as the 10,000# trailer critera is concerned, Ron, I know a local hardware supply that purposefully obtained a new data plate from the mfg'er reducing the rated weight of their trailer to below 10,000 lbs. If you're consistently close to 6000# you might want to give up 401# reducing your trailer to a 9,999 max. The mfg didn't "charge" for the data plate but it did require some paperwork.
Wouldn't that take you out of the "suspect category"???
Don't think there's a way around the Hazmat transportations restrictions,(fuel etc.) however.
I regularly fueled by Formula Atlantic from a 55 gal steel container carried in the trailer. Always thought that was ok, since it's how the mfg packaged and transported it.
Onward and Upward |
WEC4104
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 11:58 am: | |
I also recall past posts from folks that ran into issues taking the CDL driver's test. Seems that the examiner would not accept a vehicle registered a motorhome to be used as the driver's test vehicle. Guess it would depend on the state. |
John MC9
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 12:12 pm: | |
With all respect, Jon -
My friend had his CDL suspended after too many speeding
tickets; each ticket was from a different state.. He couldn't
drive in his home state of Massachusetts, since you give up
your "normal" license when you get a CDL... His wife had to
chauffeur him around for a few months. Any ticket you get
in any state, goes against your CDL record..
Naww. I drove buses, tractor trailers and 14 wheel drive
Oshkosh transit mix.. Big deal. No CDL back then, and
we were all professional drivers with clean records. A piece
of paper does not make a person drive better. And my
insurance company doesn't give a carp about "certification",
all they care about is past history. I doubt any others are different. |
Donald Lee Schwanke (Dontx)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 1:28 pm: | |
Not to run this thread into the ground, but I guess I lead a sheltered life. I have had a CDL since the first day they existed, and have yet to be hassled about all these fear items, and those who know me know I travel the highways LOTS!
I have in fact came to believe (perhaps incorrectly) that when stopped, there seems to be an instant "respect" for a professional driver, who has survived millions more miles than the officer stopping you, as opposed to stopping the young inexperienced driver that seems to have too much money. I know for a fact that when I was a highway cop, that was my feelings. I have several bus friends that share that belief. |
Mike's 4106
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 1:50 pm: | |
Not to start a debate, but I have seen enough of those "professional drivers" in my 66 yrs and I highly doubt you have enough money to pay me to ride with them. I have seen my share of them on a cell phone while driving a 80K rig at 70+. Yea that's a Pro.
That can also be said for the money people that run out and buy an RV and have never driven anything bigger than a minivan.
As some are saying a piece of paper doesn't automatically make you a good driver. It just means you are good at taking test. |
Ron Leiferman (Ron_in_sd)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 3:19 pm: | |
Good response by all. I do have a Class A CDL. I have driven semi's all over the Midwest and east coast. I have also driven commercial buses and school buses.
The issue with the CDL is that if you have the CDL you need to know the laws and can not say "I didn't know I need commercial plates because I tow a race car." That is the basis of my questions.
I am going to start running a log book in the bus just in case I ever get asked for it. Just one less thing to get in trouble over.
I have never been pulled over with the bus and trailer. I have only been pulled over once in a semi but did not get a ticket. The trailer wagged crossed the outside line along the road and the Ohio HP wanted to make sure I was awake. I had just got into the drivers seat 1 mile back and pulled in the passing lane because every one was brake checking for the HP officer.
My bus and trailer are the plain white wrapper. No signage, no graphics, just looks like a big white limo. I went with the 20 foot trailer to keep my total length under some max length laws. I went with the 10,400 rated trailer because I was so close to the 7,000 rated trailers and I have had problems with the lower end rated trailer tires. The trailer was build by a local manufacturer so I may be able to get a new tag. I was already thinking about doing that.
Do you file and pay taxes on the income?
Yes if above $600 and I get a 1099. This is one of the exemptions in South Dakota for races, if we pay income taxes on the "winnings" and we do not have more the $2000 of corporate sponsorship in a 12 month period.
Do you take deductions on the expenses?
No
Is your endeavor incorporated?
No
Is your bus titled and insured in a name other than your personal name?
No
Do you have more than 15 seats on your bus?
No
Do you not have 'private coach'or a RVIA sticker posted on your bus?
No - Private coach
Do you have a professional signature on your bus (such as XXXXX Racing)?
No, but the race car does and that is inside the trailer.
I truly think that the main people having the DOT trouble are the big toter homes. Why is a toter home any different that a Volvo 780 with the shower and toilet options install by the factory. I just need to add aux heating/cooling (dealer installed option) and a microwave (dealer installed option) and it would meet all the motorhome guide lines but I don't think I would ever be able to drive past a scale or get away with the motorhome excuse. |
Donald Lee Schwanke (Dontx)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 3:32 pm: | |
Durn Mike, and here I thought my ability to handle an 80k+ rig at 70+ while talking on the cell phone for a million miles was "skill", and that making it to 69 was a "survival skill". Shucks, I never ran over anybody! (They all scattered too fast!) |
Paul Tillmann (Paultillmann)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 30, 2006 - 10:25 am: | |
There's one thing I know, at least here in NY, is that the DOT and Police are now practically on the warpath. Everyday I pass a parking area the DOT uses for truck inspections. In the past I would see DOT set up maybe 5 times per year at that location. This spring and now summer I see them set up almost weekly. They might skip a week if its raining that particular day. I was pulled over by DOT and ticketed for an uncovered load hauling wet item 4 (practically mud) to my driveway which is 2 miles from the gravel pit. Close friends getting tickets for "crossing over the double yellow line". Your word agaisnt the officers and no way of proving otherwise. For the first time in my 33 years of driving I get anxious if I see a cop, especially if he is behind me. Even though I am not doing anything wrong they could and would get me for something. It's a huge revenue stream for the state especially from commercial vehicles. The police can and will give you a ticket in NY for a percieved infraction that might be considered in a gray area of the law as discussed in this thread. It's up to you, your lawyer and your wallet to prove your innocence. The best advise has already been given in this thread. KEEP A LOW PROFILE. And another piece of advice for New Yorkers: don't push the "gray" areas. Be as "legal" as you can be.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Paul |
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