| Author | Message | ||
| Casper4104 Unregistered guest Posted From: 52.128.30.17 Rating: |
Oy vay, what a weekend. Finally used the bus for its main intended purpose. I left Friday afternoon for a 2-1/2 hour run up to just outside of Cleveland OH to teach a motorcycle safety course. We taught classroom Friday night, taught the riding exercises Saturday, and concluded the riding exercises Sunday. I slept in the bus Friday night and Saturday night and it was just great. At the end of the day I didn’t have to go anywhere, I cooked my own meals and saved some restaurant money and of course saved two nights of hotel charges. The bus began paying for itself this weekend. Good news, students were great. Eager to learn and interested in the material. The beginners learned basic skills, the people with riding experience refined their skills, everybody had a good time, and everybody passed the course. 5 ladies and 7 guys, which is about typical. Bad news, I had a fender-bender with the bus. Here’s what happened. I went out Saturday afternoon for some munchies and a bag of ice. It was about a 2 mile run to the grocery store. Coming back from the grocery store, I was traveling a suburban 4 lane undivided road with a stoplight at the end of each (long) block. Speed limit is 35mph. I was in the left lane ready to make a left turn 300 yards ahead to return to the class site. I was doing about 30mph, with nobody in front of me. Traffic was light, with a few cars passing me on the right because of my slow speed. In the middle of the block is a driveway on the right leading to the fairgrounds, no signs, no traffic lights – there was a little festival of some sort going on. I had just been passed (on the right) by 2 cars. When I’m maybe 200 feet from the driveway, a “Police auxiliary” guy jumps out in the middle of the road to stop traffic. He wants to let the shuttle bus hauling festival goers out. I mumble the S word, push in the clutch and hit the brakes pretty hard, thinking “this is gonna be close”,,, At this point one of the brain surgeons that just passed me makes a lane change right in front of me, and makes one of those little quickie stops that minivans can do and bus conversions can’t. I say the S word out loud this time, hit the brakes full and hit the air horn. I was probably down to 5-7 mph with I hit him. I did check to my left – there was oncoming traffic so I couldn’t swerve around him. Damage to the minivan was fairly light. Tailgate bashed in, bumper fascia scuffed. Quarterpanels looked perfect. Damage to my bus almost nil. Nobody was hurt. The cop that came a few minutes later took statements and wrote me a ticket for “Failure to stop in assured clear distance ahead”. I protested that I had miles of “assured clear distance ahead” until Captain Minivan pulled that lane change, and he explained that my front hit his rear, and the law pretty much required that he write the ticket. I said that I’d contest the charge, and he pointed out my court date and said “I think you might have a legitimate beef. I put the sudden stop by the aux guy and the lane change in the report.” Ok, I have two questions for the gang. 1. Any ideas what I could have done to prevent this? I’m a motorcycle safety instructor and fairly experienced heavy truck driver, though the bus is fairly new to me. I have about 3000 bus miles under by belt now. Motorcycles and big trucks teach you to avoid trouble, and I think I’m generally pretty good at it. I think I was doing everything right. I had good lane position, I was proceeding at a safe and prudent speed, I had nobody in front of me. 2. Do you guys think I have a prayer of beating this ticket? My insurance is great and I don’t think this will affect my coverage or costs, since I haven’t had an at-fault claim in nearly 20 years, but this is about principle. The smart play would probably be just to pay the lousy ticket and get on with my life, but I don’t want to do that. What do you guys think? That’s it. I hope your weekend was better than mine. Let’s be careful out there,,, Casper | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 29 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 63.233.6.253 Rating: N/A |
Ya' need a dash cam, I was driveing a big truck years ago & this little car passed me going about 100 & went around a curve ,as I came around the curve, he had rolled his car & was out, STANDING , in the middle of the road ,looking at his car,he survived the rollover only to almost get run over by a 80,000 pound big truck  seriously tho,a dash cam would probably get you out of the ticket,that's about all that would tho | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member Username: Happycampersrus Post Number: 217 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.65.122.187 Rating: N/A |
Hey, I would go to court a make my case, Also I would explain that I teach safe driving courses and I FULLY understand what went on here. I have always hated that BS of an automatic ticket for hitting some genius in the rear for pulling in front of you. I can't count the times an idiot has flown around me just to stop in front of me to make a lefthand turn. I guess these people think their cars are bus proof. LOL. | ||
| Phil Cegielski (Rt4957)
Registered Member Username: Rt4957 Post Number: 10 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 207.200.116.133 Rating: |
There should be a "Cut Off" Law passed as we as Bus Drivers Know our limits,,but "Joe Minivan" Thinks we can stop on Dimes. At my job working for MTA,,I rear ended a Porsche (at least it was an Expensive one!!)that Before I got to the light I had ample Following Distance,,but Zipperhead had to pick the "Open Lane" after whipping around me. A Passenger Distracted me at the light,,I had a Bad seat and was sitting at the lowest point(I always sit all the way up) foot slipped off the brake and the bus creeped into the rear of the car Our Bike Racks love chewing metal and after it was said and done,,the bus ate the rear taillight,and the hood. Had this guy been patient,it would have avoided the repairs to his car,,and I would have had a "Cleaner" record I learned from that mistake,,but there are still too many people "In A Hurry" nowadays. Rt4957 | ||
| Sean Mormelo (Sventvkg)
Registered Member Username: Sventvkg Post Number: 166 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 216.152.187.78 Rating: |
If someone does this to me, i'm going to accelerate and decimate his POS car on spite...that's the point i'm at with this..If it's going to be my fault, then they will feel the rath of 15 tons of steel... | ||
| Geoff (Geoff)
Registered Member Username: Geoff Post Number: 895 Registered: 12-2002 Posted From: 71.211.116.93 Rating: |
I don't know about Ohio (most states have similar laws), but a cop cannot write a traffic ticket on the spot unless he personally witnessed the offense. In the case of an accident there has to be an investigation and only then can the police agency issue a ticket and it has to be backed up by the prosecuting attorney if jurisdiction is challenged by the driver in court. Also, the whole thing is a sham because in the case of a rear ender the car in the back is not always at fault. If the other driver makes an unsafe lane change or unsafe merge into traffic he would be at fault. What I would do first is call the police department and ask the *cop's supervisor* if they have a policy of issuing infraction tickets without witnessing the offense. The supervisor may dismiss the ticket himself, otherwise it sounds like a good case to argue in court. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 31 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.106.62 Rating: |
Oh-ooh: ">Ok, I have two questions for the gang. >What do you guys think? >Any ideas what I could have done to prevent this? I’m a motorcycle safety instructor and fairly experienced heavy truck driver, though the bus is fairly new to me. I have about 3000 bus miles under by belt now. " Ok... You're asking for -opinions- ? Man.. Awright.. Youse asked for it.. 1. I’m maybe 200 feet from the driveway, a “Police auxiliary” guy jumps out in the middle of the road to stop traffic. Looking ahead while driving, any sign of any traffic control officer present, should have immediately tossed that red flag up in a pro driver's brain. The speed should have been reduced at that first indication, and readiness to make a full stop, should have been considered. 2. I mumble the S word, push in the clutch and hit the brakes pretty hard Why would anyone want to "push in the clutch" and remove the extra stopping ability of the engine compression, when attempting to make a quick stop? The -only- time this should be done, is if you're on ice, packed snow, or a very slippery surface... And only then, to prevent the engine compression from locking the rear wheels. 3. there was oncoming traffic so I couldn't’t swerve around him If there was a traffic control officer stopping traffic, moving around that stopped vehicle could result in a head-on collision. "Swerving" a bus is something a bus driver simply never considers. It can very easily cause a total loss of control of the vehicle. And 4. "Damage to the minivan was fairly light. Tailgate bashed in....... Nobody was hurt" You haven't received notice from the other guy's insurance company yet. When you do (in about a month), you'll find that you can't "bash in" a tailgate and not have neck and back injuries. The injuries usually do not begin to rear their ugly heads, until at least few days after the accident. (That's a fact, BTW) There ya' have it. You asked for comments regarding how it could have been avoided... Should you fight the ticket? Unless you have one or more witnesses willing to testify that the driver of the van swerved in front of you at that last instant, and came to an abrupt stop, I think you'd be wasting your time. And even with a dozen witnesses, you hit him.. The witnesses and their testimony might serve to help your attorney defend you against having to pay for full damages, if the other driver could be proven to be partially at fault. How's dat for an opinion? (Message edited by john_mc9 on July 31, 2006) | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 31 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 63.233.41.13 Rating: N/A |
I kinda have to agree with ol' John.anytime you see someone stopping traffic, or red lights flashing,you need to put the brakes on ,followed by turning on your flashers,I've seen firetrucks on the highway trying to rescue people out of a wreck & people won't even slow down,they swerve to miss the firemen,and, in my state, if you hit the back of a car,you get a ticket for "FOLLOWING TOO CLOSE"...like I said before,the only way out of that ,is if you had film of him swerving in front of you a split second before the wreck.,ya' drive a heavy vehicle LOTS different than a motorcycle or a car,if a light changes 1/2 block away,I'm already off the acc. & have my foot on the brakes,it pisses cars off,but,with 30,000 pounds of responceability,,ya' just get used to pissin' them off. | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Registered Member Username: Pvcces Post Number: 971 Registered: 5-2001 Posted From: 65.74.70.16 Rating: N/A |
Casper, if you want to defend against the ticket, your defense has to be that you were not negligent. About the only other thing that I have to offer is that you should see if you can turn up a witness that corroborates your version of the events. I was thinking of the person that was doing the flagging. At least, he was on the spot and might be some help. Different states have pretty different ways of arriving at responsibility in cases like this. For this case, I would think that you would want to check with an attorney to prevent your defense from being a complete waste of time. For example, in a case like this, in Alaska, showing that the other guy was at least partially at fault will only reduce your share of the bill. In Washington, it could be a complete defense. Good luck with your case, and I hope no one decides that they have been injured. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska | ||
| JW Smythe (Jwsmythe)
Registered Member Username: Jwsmythe Post Number: 253 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 70.222.19.185 Rating: N/A |
Casper, For beating the ticket, it really depends on the judge you have. In most states, the ticketing officer has to show up to court. If he doesn't, you automatically win. If he does show up, give a calm clear description of what happened, pretty much what you said in your written statement here. Really, by what you're saying, the cop was on your side. Sure, he has to write you the ticket, but he was giving you the additional information in the report to let you get out of it in court. Keep a few points very clear. * You were driving safely. * You were slowing in compliance with the officer. * The other vehicle changed lanes and stopped short in front of you, causing a situation which was impossible for you to avoid. Most judges are understanding. They are less understanding when people in his courtroom are pushy, loud, obnoxious, or ranting. When you show up in court, you'll probably find yourself in there with a whole bunch of defendants. Keep your explanation of the events short, sweet, but complete. They don't have time for a long explanation of the events. You may want to just go with the points I listed above, and if the judge asks for more, you can go into more. I don't suppose that you had any witnesses, did you? I was in court one day and there was a lady who had a van full of kids that she was bringing to school. She ran a red light, to get the kids to school on time ({sigh}). EVERY kid in the car testified that they were all watching the light, and they all saw that it was still green. The judge knew it was BS, but he let it go, because every witness was consistant with their stories. | ||
| Casper4104 Unregistered guest Posted From: 24.159.80.27 Rating: N/A |
Wow John, that's one heck of an opinion. My friendly rebuttals,,, 1. I’m maybe 200 feet from the driveway, a “Police auxiliary” guy jumps out in the middle of the road to stop traffic. Looking ahead while driving, any sign of any traffic control officer present, should have immediately tossed that red flag up in a pro driver's brain. The speed should have been reduced at that first indication, and readiness to make a full stop, should have been considered. Police AUXILIARY - blue jeans, ball cap, blue shirt with badge. He was standing sideways so I didn't see the badge. I didn't notice he was a cop until he stepped off of the curb when I was 220 feet away. I don't think most people would have. 2. I mumble the S word, push in the clutch and hit the brakes pretty hard Why would anyone want to "push in the clutch" and remove the extra stopping ability of the engine compression, when attempting to make a quick stop? The -only- time this should be done, is if you're on ice, packed snow, or a very slippery surface... And only then, to prevent the engine compression from locking the rear wheels. 6-71 4 speed, 30 mph in 3rd gear, about halfway up the rev range. In a quick stop situation, I think it would have pushed me more than engine braked, at least for the first few seconds. I could be wrong on this. 3. there was oncoming traffic so I couldn't’t swerve around him If there was a traffic control officer stopping traffic, moving around that stopped vehicle could result in a head-on collision. "Swerving" a bus is something a bus driver simply never considers. It can very easily cause a total loss of control of the vehicle. Right - if there was oncoming traffic (there was) swerving around the guy would lead to a head on. That's why I didn't try it. And 4. "Damage to the minivan was fairly light. Tailgate bashed in....... Nobody was hurt" You haven't received notice from the other guy's insurance company yet. When you do (in about a month), you'll find that you can't "bash in" a tailgate and not have neck and back injuries. The injuries usually do not begin to rear their ugly heads, until at least few days after the accident. (That's a fact, BTW) The tailgate of a minivan is fiberglass or thin tin. You could probably bash it in pretty good with a bowling ball, and do it without spilling the coffee on the dashboard. Also, the bumper on a 4104 is much higher than the bumper on a Dodge Caravan, so the tailgate took the whole hit. The bumper fascia was just scratched on the top. The fact that he was only pushed ahead 6 or 8 feet, and the quarterpanels didn't buckle tells me I didn't hit him that hard. Still, your point is taken, and just because the guy walked away (and drove his dented minivan home) doesn't mean he wasn't hurt - or at least that he won't decide the next day that he's hurt. Not trying to be argumentative, you've made some points that I'll think long and hard about. The cop took my statement, the other driver's statement, and the Police Auciliary guy's statement. I'm looking forward to seeing that police report. I don't know if this means anything, but the Police Aux guy wouldn't make eye contact with me, but kept staring at his shoes. I'll let you guys know how this shakes loose. Thanks for the feedback, Casper | ||
| Casper4104 Unregistered guest Posted From: 24.159.80.27 Rating: N/A |
Allow me to explain my situation a little better, I was doing exactly that - pissing them off. I was doing 5mph under the speed limit in the left hand lane. Slow and cautious, coming up to my LH turn at the end of the block. They were passing me on the right, as I said. There was nobody stopping traffic - there were no lights. I didn't want to bring this part up, because I didn't want to turn this into an age thing (which it ain't), but this guy was way too old to be a police officer. He's police AUXILIARY. I saw a gray haired guy standing on the corner in jeans, a dark blue shirt and a ballcap, no radio, no gunbelt, facing the road so I didn't get a look at his front. The shuttle bus was nowhere in sight. Now most people see an old guy in blue jeans, we don't think police officer. So I'm proceeding at a very prudent speed, in the lane I need to be in, head on a swivel and watching for everything, and suddenly the old guy in the blue jeans turns to his left and he's got a badge and his hand is in the air. He does it with traffic approaching so close that everyone has to get creative to get stopped in time. I wonder if the guy that cut in front of me did it to avoid hitting the guy he'd been following. If I'd seen someone stopping traffic, I would have slowed down and hit the flashers, as I always do. If i'd seen anything at all looking uncool I would have slowed down, to maybe 20 or even 15 in a 35 zone. I've never been shy about pissing people off with overcaution. Nobody was stopping traffic, or even looking like they might, until I was right there. I wasn't following too closely, in fact, I wasn't following anybody at all. The nearest traffic in my lane was way ahead, beyond the intersection where I would make my left. I'm aware that motorcycles and large vehicles have very different handling characteristics, but you actually handle traffic in very much the same way if you want to stay alive. You control your speed and position to always maintain as large a "buffer zone" as possible, you always maintain complete situational awareness, and you always prepare for the possibility that someone nearby will do something stupid - predicting what might happen and planning your reaction if things go badly. I was doing all of these things. Let me mention again that this was a driveway, not an intersection. There were no vehicles in the driveway waiting to enter the road. I would have slowed down for that too. The officer who did the report (not the auxiliary guy, an officer who came to the scene after the crash) noted on the report that the guy I hit made a last second lane change and an abrupt stop, that driver, the police auxiliary officer and I all agreed on that. Sorry to be defensive fellers, it's been a rough weekend. I don't know what I could have done differently. I saw nothing to put me on the alert until 10 seconds before the crash, because I'm pretty sure there was nothing to see. The officer that wrote my ticket recommended that I go to court and contest the charge, that's got to tell us something. I'm aware that piloting a large vehicle, or any vehicle, is a large responsibility - and I take that responsiblity very seriously. I did when I was driving an R-235 Mack, when I was operating an LCM-8 landing craft in the Navy, and even when I ride my motorcycle. Sorry guys, thanks for the input and even the criticism. I was put in a tough spot, and it didn't end well. I'll be thinking about it for a long time. Casper | ||
| JeffJ Unregistered guest Posted From: 4.225.233.144 Rating: N/A |
In my experiance, if the officer did not see the accident, the case can only be made if the victim shows up in court. If your insurance pays off, there is a good chance they will not answer the summons. JJJ | ||
| H3-40 (Ace)
Registered Member Username: Ace Post Number: 280 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 70.197.200.26 Rating: N/A |
Casper, do yourself a BIG favor and do what YOU think is best! YOU were the one there IN the incident and your the only one out of all of us that knows what, where, and how this happened! You can get all kinds of arguments as you have seen and most of them, Like John's are opinions and not first handed! Your opinion on the other hand IS and counts the most! Did you see John on the other side of the road? Nope! Like you said, the officwer that took the report advised to take it to court and that's exactly what I would do! Hey what have you got to lose? You are your best witness, because you were there and NONE of us were even close! Good luck but I personally don't think you'll need it! Ace | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 40 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.108.42 Rating: N/A |
Casper - Accidents happen. That's why they're called accidents. If it wasn't that way, we'd call 'em "on purposes". So you pay a fine (or not), and your insurance pays for the damage and injuries... big deal; Yesterday's news. Don't sweat it. Asking for "opinions" from a forum full of guys like me, is only going to net you opinions from Monday morning quarterbacks. Like Ace said, we weren't there, we can only be as objective and/or subjective as we can in offering our opinion. Commercial bus drivers fall into great scrutiny for any collision. The bus driver is deemed "at fault", if there isn't overwhelming proof that the accident couldn't be avoided. And the ones that judge that, weren't at the scene of the accident, either. So.... when you go before that judge to fight this thing, remember that he too, wasn't at the scene. If it went before a jury, not one of that jury would have been there at the scene, either. If it were me? I'd probably try to win that ticket, let my insurance pay the damages, and fuggetaboutid.. It ain't a biggie. You're not a bad person for it. It doesn't mean you're a lousy driver. It just happened. Smile. (and stop telling people about it. It ain't none of their biz) | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 36 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 63.233.7.216 Rating: N/A |
yep,good luck Casper,let us know how it turns out the whole thing is attitude,we have cowboys down here,that step out on the road & stop traffic,everybodys stops,they move 100 head across the road to another pasture, there are times , that a woman will let you make love to her. ( weeeee,huh ? ) and there are times that a woman WANTS you to make love to her, YOUR experience is better,when she has a good attitude | ||
| Sean Mormelo (Sventvkg)
Registered Member Username: Sventvkg Post Number: 167 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 12.104.83.157 Rating: N/A |
Look, here's the deal...We've all been in these situations and there are some that absolutely just can not be avoided and I believe this to be one of the from your description. The law may say otherwise but the law isn't perfect. This is a real bum deal you got here and I feel for you. As a guy who just got my Class B CDL I understand full well how these types if incidents can hurt a CDL holder's livelihood. If it happened to me I would be very upset, no doubt. All you can do here is try to fight the ticket, live with the decision and move on. That's all we can all do. Good luck man! (Message edited by sventvkg on August 01, 2006) | ||
| Steve Daniels Unregistered guest Posted From: 70.235.226.17 Rating: N/A |
Hey Casper, The other driver made an unsafe lane change, plain and simple. Take three identical diagrams of the accident location, drawing about a half of a block before and after. Ask the judge if he would have the bailiff hand a copy to the judge,another copy to the defendant, retaining one for yourself for reference, and then ask the judge to ask the defendant to verify the accuracy of the sketch. Also take a print-out of your driver's license that dates back 20, or so, years and a copy of your license to teach motorcycle driver's safety training courses. When you tell the judge that you were already braking when the goober van changed lanes, then had to panic brake when the van made an abrupt braking motion seconds after getting in front of you, I don't see how it could be ruled against you, especially after you ask the judge to refer to the "stopping distance " chart of a 15 ton rig( that you conveniently printed out and furnished him with the other material). Immediately before the goober changed lanes, you had plenty of distance to stop. 98% of the time the vehicle in the rear is at fault, you were not at fault. I know one person that wants to see this go away, that's the rent-a-cop that walked out there without allowing the traffic substancial clearance to safely dissipate or stop. Let us know the outcome, and remember, the officer's statement is only an "opinion" and that's all. Steve | ||
| JW Smythe (Jwsmythe)
Registered Member Username: Jwsmythe Post Number: 261 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 70.126.251.160 Rating: N/A |
Steve, What you're suggesting may work ok in regular he said - she said court. In most places as I've experienced it, the judge just listens to both sides, and then says who's guilty. It's not a long drawn out thing, and if you start trying present graphs, charts, and diagrams, you may annoy the judge. Most of them are very busy, especially in traffic court. They have say 100 cases to hear and judge before lunch. If there was a full trial, especially with a jury, then any of the documentation you're suggesting would probably need an expert witness to testify about it. So Book A says a 50 ton truck can stop in 100 feet at 30mph. Book B says it takes 75 feet, and Book C says it takes 300. Expert witnesses can be wrong too, which is why the opposing lawyer should have their own experts.. But, I seriously doubt this case will end up anything like that. Having a good set of materials in hand can be a good thing. Nothing says that you *HAVE* to use everything you bring into the court room with you. Since traffic court is usually a waiting game while those other 99 people get heard before you, you can really get an idea of how the judge is feeling. BTW, I say "you" not as you personally, just you as anyone other than myself. (Message edited by jwsmythe on August 09, 2006) |
