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Message |
JC Alacoque (Jc_alacoque)
Registered Member
Username: Jc_alacoque
Post Number: 9
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 154.11.109.30
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 9:09 am: | |
I'm supposed to torque my wheel nuts to 500 ft-lbs. My impact wrench is rated for 700 ft-lbs. Would that be too much? Would it break the studs? Does a 500 ft-lb torque stick exist? Or should I tighten them as much as possible by hand and go to the tire shop to have them torque properly? Any bus nut out there have experience and advice with this? |
R.J.(Bob) Evans (Bobofthenorth)
Registered Member
Username: Bobofthenorth
Post Number: 97
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 64.110.227.12
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 11:07 am: | |
Yes you can buy a torque wrench that big.
My guess is there are more truck wheels torqued with an impact wrench than a torque wrench. And in years past they were tightened with a cheater until they squeaked. I don't own a torque wrench & I don't worry about my wheels falling off. YMMV |
Ron Walker (Prevost82)
Registered Member
Username: Prevost82
Post Number: 241
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 208.181.210.47
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 11:08 am: | |
Yes ...get them torqued properly. |
Mel La Plante (Mel_4104)
Registered Member
Username: Mel_4104
Post Number: 10
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 208.181.100.46
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 11:11 am: | |
no do not use an impact wrench to put the wheel nuts on as you may have to cut them off.your best bet is to go to the tire shop and talk to one of the heavy tire guys and ask him if he would come to your bus with a torque wrench and do the job right, most every shop has some one that will help you out but just rember to slip him some thing for his time. if you try putting them on as tight as you can you just might over torque them and strech the studs and now you will have trouble getting the nuts off and have to replace the studs which will mean that you have to remove the drums , replace the studs,put in new oil seals, repack the bearings, replace the drums and then torque the nuts down right . different people use different ways but a couple are clean the studs with a wire brush and wipe the ofall oil with lacqure thinner and let dry wash the nuts in lacqure thiner to remove all dirt and oil out of the threads and blow off with compressed air , now finger tighten all the nuts by hand, then tighten then all too #350 first doing this by useing a patteren back and forth accrosss the rim as you do it to prevent having a wobbly wheel., then torque then the rest of the way to the #500. 6the other method that some people use is to get them to #400 and then when they are all at that setting turn the nuts a set part of a turn and this will bring them to the settig all even. but the tire guy is still you best bet. |
Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member
Username: Buswarrior
Post Number: 872
Registered: 12-2000
Posted From: 70.48.193.153
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 3:46 pm: | |
Home built torque wrench:
four foot heavy fence post or pipe
socket and plain bar for wheel fasteners
Slip pipe over your plain bar and socket
(Don't use your ratchet, unneccessarily hard on it!)
Do some math:
your weight, in relation to how far out the pipe you will place your hands in order to put your FULL weight on it. (knees/feet off the ground)
So, if you weigh 200 lbs, you will make 500 ft/lbs by placing your weight at the 30 inch point from the socket (2 and a half feet)
If you weigh 250 lbs, hands at 24 inches.
Orient your equipment so that it is convenient to putting your weight on it so it doesn't fall off the fastener. Somewhere parallel to the ground, so you don't hurt yourself if the socket slips off. Keeping a fresh, tight socket in reserve just for this purpose would help.
Resist the urge to cut the pipe at that length, you may need all of it to remove the fasteners some day, many miles and rust down the road!
And go back and check all of your fasteners after you have put 100 miles on them. You might get a bit of a turn on some, as they have settled in, the paint has been squeezed, you had too much ice cream between install and checking....
happy coaching!
buswarrior |
Edward J. Sommers (Sommersed)
Registered Member
Username: Sommersed
Post Number: 18
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 148.78.245.11
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 6:17 pm: | |
I use a bathroom scale.
Say you weight 200 lbs. With a three foot cheater and all your weight you get 600 Ft lbs. All you have to do is stand on a scale till it indicates you only weight 100 lbs and you would be tourqued to 500!
Ed
Slowly heading south. |
R.J.(Bob) Evans (Bobofthenorth)
Registered Member
Username: Bobofthenorth
Post Number: 98
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 64.110.227.12
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 6:41 pm: | |
Ed - your principle works but I think your math is wrong. (200-100)*3 = 300 not 500
BTW - I still think this is a lot of bother for a non-issue for most of us. |
Tim Jones (Torquester)
Registered Member
Username: Torquester
Post Number: 89
Registered: 12-2000
Posted From: 205.169.164.69
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 7:35 pm: | |
My choice would be a torque stick (yes they do exist). Or a torque wrench.
hth, Tq |
Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member
Username: Happycampersrus
Post Number: 224
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 68.65.122.187
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 8:06 pm: | |
When it comes to wheels and safety you either should get the RIGHT tools for the job or have it done by a qualified mechanic.
Harbor Freight has a torque wrench that will perform well or look on E place for a torque multiplier. NAPA will have or can get the proper torque stick.
Also use an impact socket with the torque wrench as I have seen the cheap "regular" sockets split at about 300 or half way during a pull.
Not to start any battles, but leaning or standing or putting your full weight on a cheap or worn socket is asking for trouble. Just keep a good dentist on call so if your face goes sliding down the side of your coach.
I also wonder what the "cheater pipe" formula is to get the proper torque when an extension is used for the rear wheels? (sarcasm) |
Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member
Username: Buswarrior
Post Number: 876
Registered: 12-2000
Posted From: 70.48.193.153
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 8:28 pm: | |
Yes, Dale I agree, proper tools is best.
But, there are many busnuts that cannot afford to buy a single use tool of that expence.
Even a cheap 500 ft/lb torque wrench is a bunch of dollars, and how do you keep it calibrated without more cash?
I was hoping to share an inexpensive alternative, that will produce the same results.
Again, I agree, right tools, but without alternatives, folks will do something a whole lot less scientific or appropriate for their wheel fasteners and studs.
happy coaching!
buswarrior |
Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member
Username: Happycampersrus
Post Number: 225
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 68.65.122.187
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 8:45 pm: | |
BW
I wasn't aiming at you. LOL.
All I meant was whatever method you use is be CAREFUL and don't use a old or cheap socket.
I'm sure folks know to use the proper tools, but sometimes you have to get inventive and on the side of the road anything goes. |
Ed Jewett (Kristinsgrandpa)
Registered Member
Username: Kristinsgrandpa
Post Number: 258
Registered: 2-2003
Posted From: 64.24.208.101
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 8:45 pm: | |
Buswarrior, I like the picture of your coach with only a foot of snow, you must have taken that picture pretty early in the fall.
Ed |
Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member
Username: Buswarrior
Post Number: 877
Registered: 12-2000
Posted From: 70.48.193.153
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 8:51 pm: | |
hahahahaha!
Taken shortly before heading to Jack's party, can't remember if it was last year or the one before.
I know it was a pre-trip shot, because it parks the other way around on the return. Can't get it turned around in the yard once the snow comes.
happy coaching!
buswarrior |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Registered Member
Username: Pvcces
Post Number: 982
Registered: 5-2001
Posted From: 65.74.70.16
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2006 - 10:29 pm: | |
We've already spent $500 to repair damage done by one of Les Shwab's poorly trained tire men with a 1" air wrench.
What ticked me off more than anything was when I saw the guy haul out that wrench, I asked him if he knew how to run it. He assured me that he did.
Five minute later, there were three stripped nuts and studs.
We still go to Les Shwab, because the service is usually good, but I stay nearby. If they take a big air wrench to our wheels, I tell them not to tighten them, but they can use the wrench to snug the nuts; they have to be torqued.
In one case, when a guy was doing that, the wrench just bumped a couple of times on the run down nut, and it was still over torqued.
JC, I've worked with a lot of impact wrenches. What is often not well known is that each time the internal hammers hit, the transmit enough of a shock into the nut and stud to cause them to move a little more.
This means that you need to know at least four things when you are trying to tighten these nuts.
You need to know what torque you are trying for, what air pressure the gun has, how long you should let it hammer to get the rated torque of the gun and the rating of the gun.
With using one a lot, you haven't a prayer of getting it close.
For what it's worth.
Tom Caffrey
Suncatcher
Ketchikan, Alaska |
Edward J. Sommers (Sommersed)
Registered Member
Username: Sommersed
Post Number: 19
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 148.78.245.12
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 18, 2006 - 11:30 am: | |
Error - Error - Error, My last post is in error!!!
This is proof I should not try to engage brain without sleeping the night before!
The bathroom scale method works well and very accurate if done properly, let me try again, I slept all night last night!
OK - Let me tell how I do it where-ever I am, and most of my work is done when parked out in the desert on BLM land in the southwest.
The target is 500 ftlb of course and I use a 4 foot pipe over the breaker bar. At four feet, a down force of 125 lbs is needed(125 X 4 = 500).
I weight 250 lbs, so I subtract the needed 125 from my 250 and I get 125 again. So...while pushing down on the pipe, when the scale reads 125 I'm there because that means that 125 lbs is pushing down on the pipe, and 125 lbs is pushing down on the earth.
It could be done the other way - by pulling up on the pipe but thats a lot harder of course and the indicated weight on the scale is 250 + 125 = 375! I'd rather pull.
The breaker bar (a GOOD one) and the 4 foot cheater bar is already at hand because that is what I use to take the wheel nuts off in the first place. No Air, Air compressor, air gun or other lugging of stuff is needed, the breaker bar and pipe is just inside the bay should I need it on the road, the bath scale is near the shower.
Ed |
Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member
Username: Bob_greenwood
Post Number: 94
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 63.233.94.62
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 18, 2006 - 11:45 am: | |
at 250, how do you see the scale? just jokeing |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Registered Member
Username: Pvcces
Post Number: 983
Registered: 5-2001
Posted From: 65.74.70.16
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 18, 2006 - 10:24 pm: | |
And about my typos above:
"JC, I've worked with a lot of impact wrenches. What is often not well known is that each time the internal hammers hit, the transmit enough of a shock into the nut and stud to cause them to move a little more." I meant to say "they transmit"
"With using one a lot, you haven't a prayer of getting it close." I meant to say "without".
I'm sorry for not proofreading my work.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
Suncatcher
Ketchikan, Alaska |
JC Alacoque (Jc_alacoque)
Registered Member
Username: Jc_alacoque
Post Number: 10
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 154.11.109.30
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 19, 2006 - 9:57 am: | |
Thanks again guys for all the good insight about torquing wheel nuts. The breaker bar and pipe extention method sounds good to me. We are taking the coach to Penticton BC today (from Invermere BC) and staying there for 10 days for my oldest son's hockey camp (at the Park Royal RV campground). I'll flash my lights and wave real big if I meet another bus on the hyw !! |
Jon W.
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 69.252.165.154
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 7:35 am: | |
I assume folks that convert coaches intend to be involved with them and continue to do their own work.
Why not accept the fact that removing and replacing wheels is something that will be done often enough to justify a torque multiplying tool and atorque wrench? Mickey Mousing around with long bars and guessing about the torque sounds like a great way to end up with more damage than the torque multiplier will cost.
And the best part of a torque multiplier is you can carry it with you and do wheel replacement on the road without waiting for the kid with a 1" impact wrench that does not know what he is doing. |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Registered Member
Username: Sffess
Post Number: 642
Registered: 1-2002
Posted From: 67.142.130.11
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 2:34 pm: | |
Buswarrior's suggestion is NOT MickyMousing around. Weight (force) X radius (length of bar) is the definition of torque. A Torque Wrench is a mechanical device to make applying different torques easier. If may not be as accurate as Buswarrior's arrangement. I agree that the breaker bar and socket need to be first class but you need those anyway.
For good used tool prices in Middle Tennessee, try Linville Supply, Hartsville, TN. NE of Nashville, North of Lebanon. TVA etc surplus tools. Lots of Williams and similar 3/4" sockets at prices that will make you smile.
I have gotten Snap On for a few dollars. Most are other top brands like Williams. They have small stuff too. |
Phil Smith (Phil_smith)
Registered Member
Username: Phil_smith
Post Number: 21
Registered: 3-2006
Posted From: 24.117.40.105
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 21, 2006 - 9:41 am: | |
I'd like to add One More Thing to this thread. When doing the Rear Wheels, it's necessary to brace the pivot point of the wrench you're using. They make a stand that is adjustable ( height ) so you can rest the pivot point of the wrench on it and that will make the socket stay put when applying the down force. Without support, you can easily cause the socket to slip off and cause problems. Not sure where I saw it, but it would be a nice addition to whatever wrench you decide on.
Phil in Az. |
Arthur J Griffith (Arthurseagle)
Registered Member
Username: Arthurseagle
Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2006
Posted From: 72.236.102.248
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 21, 2006 - 11:23 am: | |
Harbor Freight has a 3/4" torque wrench that is
42" long that gives you good leverage. About $150. I have had one for about two years now and
am very happy with it.
ARTHUR |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Registered Member
Username: Sffess
Post Number: 643
Registered: 1-2002
Posted From: 67.142.130.16
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 21, 2006 - 4:02 pm: | |
Warning, HF torque wrench callibration may be inexact. I twisted off a rod bolt in a Yanmar engine and then found that my HF wrench was giving me 25 percent more torque than indicated.
Linville supply has some dial type two piece torque wrenches, similar to Snap On. $150 is a lot for an HF tool. |
Jon W.
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 69.252.165.154
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 20, 2006 - 3:58 pm: | |
Stephen,
I made a poor choice of words with the choice of "Mickey Mousing around" and I apologize to Buswarrior and you for that. I stand by the intent of what I posted. Buswarrior talks about keeping your feet and knees off the ground while putting all of your weight on a bar at a prescribed distance up from the end.
Maybe as I age I think a little harder about what I do, but I've had enough wrenches and sockets slip from nuts or bolts that I don't want to be near the side of a road or even in my garage when I am balancing on a length of pipe off the ground to insure my lug nuts are tight enough.
If someone is serious about maintaining their conversion they need tools and there is no substitute for having the right ones, especially when dealing with something as important as mounting wheels. I'd rather have the kid with a 1" impact wrench than wrestle with a 4 foot length of pipe. |
James Stacy (Jim_stacy)
Registered Member
Username: Jim_stacy
Post Number: 14
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 66.72.60.254
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 9:19 pm: | |
If you have left hand threads on the left side wheels be carefull choosing a torque wrench or impact. Mant impact wrenches do not torque the same in both directions and MANY torque wrenches only torque in a clockwise direction regardless of what the sales person tells you. BTDT.
Jim Stacy |
Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member
Username: Buswarrior
Post Number: 883
Registered: 12-2000
Posted From: 70.48.193.161
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 9:58 pm: | |
Hello Jon.
No offence taken.
I would have the pipe oriented so that I am kneeling, the pipe is parallel or leaning toward the ground, for the last little bit, lean on the pipe, and just raise your knees and toes off the ground.
This might be an exercise in abdominal muscle that is beyond some of us, and that's ok. Find a kid, and you're in business again!
If the socket comes off the fastener, you don't hurt yourself in the inch or two of descent. If one starts this adventure from a standing position and is swinging in the air up high, or, standing on the pipe, well, an education is coming when the socket slips!!!
happy coaching!
buswarrior |