| Author | Message | ||
| Phil Cegielski (Rt4957)
Registered Member Username: Rt4957 Post Number: 17 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 207.200.116.133 Rating: N/A |
A friend and I are looking into buying a 1971 Flxible with a Cummins 903 engine. This bus has been sitting for about 25 years,,the owner states that it moved under its own power recently,,but we are unsure. What should I do before even thinking of turning the engine over? Is there a way to lube all the cylinders before starting it as I`d hate to have a scored cylinder,,and I really would like to avoid an overhaul cost. I plan on replacing all the fluids before attempting to start it,,plus somehow add fresh fuel after emptying the fuel tank. Thanks for any suggestions Phil / rt4957 | ||
| Greg Peterson (Gpmci102)
Registered Member Username: Gpmci102 Post Number: 25 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 71.194.70.124 Rating: N/A |
I believe you are going to need an engine rebuild after that many years. If the bus was out side and the intake and exhaust were not sealed you can be sure that the engine has rust inside it. You may get it running but it will soon start using oil as the rings grind into all that rust. Another problem will be every hose on the bus. The rubber will probably be shot after that many years. I think you are in for some major work in order to get it running with any degree of reliability. I neglected my 1971 snowmobile for 3 years and last weekend I noticed that the engine is now stuck. I had put oil in the cylinders and closed the intake with tape but it is stuck. I think it is better to sell stuff if you are no longer going to use it regularly. Maybe if you sealed the whole machine in a tank of oil it would store better. I would run away from that bus deal. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 90 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.107.114 Rating: N/A |
25 years? Egads... aside from the engine, you've got flattened wheel bearings/seals, pinion bearing/seals, axle bearing/seals... Generator/alternator seals... and corrosion... rust?... Do you really need this bus? | ||
| Spencer Champion (Spencer)
Registered Member Username: Spencer Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 68.211.32.42 Rating: N/A |
The PO says it moved under its own power. You might ask how many times it got started over the past 25 years. If it got started and moved some you might be ok on some of the seals and bearing. Hoses are just going to go bad. They go bad on a running bus in that time frame. Clean fuel, fresh filters, (check the tank for bad fuel) good batteries and go easy on the starting fluid. Let it run at idle for quite a while. Its either going to run awhile or not. Good luck. | ||
| Tim (Bigtim44)
Registered Member Username: Bigtim44 Post Number: 8 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 67.190.115.174 Rating: N/A |
If the bus is cheap enuf and if the oil in the engine looks good and there is no sign of water in the oil,get it started and run it,try using WD-40 down the intake instead of starting fluid ,not as harsh on the motor.If it has a block heater plug it in and get the motor warm before you try and start it. Don't fix it unless it's broke!! Tim | ||
| Phil Cegielski (Rt4957)
Registered Member Username: Rt4957 Post Number: 18 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 207.200.116.133 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for the Replies. It`s one of those "Rare" finds,Flxible only made 100 like it,,and only 1 is known to be preseved. It seems to have all its parts,,we are going to inspect it closer next week. I luckily have the maintenance manual for it already so I can read into what is needed and where it is. Should 10 gallons of fuel be suficient to bring to get it running,(If we get that far?) All the other fluids will be replaced before the attempt. Thanks Phil/Rt4957 | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 307 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 69.162.3.30 Rating: N/A |
Is it stored inside or outside? Northeast or Southwest? Are you good at doing your own work? You need to look closely at the framework behind the rear axle; if it was run in salt at all could have a lot of swiss cheese. Don't forget about brake components and all the air brake items. Shoes rusted to drums, switches not working anymore, waterpump seal starting to leak after you start to run it any. Gummy fuel in injection pump and lines; watch for seized accelerator linkage, air compressor, alternator, etc.Would be a great project if you are willing to devote the hours it will need to make it right.Good Luck and keep us posted as to what you do. | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 136 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 65.150.44.63 Rating: N/A |
send pictures | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 187 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 63.97.117.35 Rating: N/A |
Phil, Do yourself a favor and do a lot of research on the Cummins 903. As you know it is a monster V8 and not one of Cummins better products. I am a big Cummins fan but this is one I would not want. JohnMC, Never heard of flattened wheel bearings from sitting? Tell us more. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 93 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.107.109 Rating: N/A |
Gusc - Naww, I'll let Phil tell you more, once that 25 year-old landmark gets rolling. Phil - Anything, anyone feels is worth reviving, is worth the time to revive (to them).. It ain't the cost, it's the challenge and the passion.. Having 9 to 11 tons sit stationary for 25 years, causes things to flatten out under the sheer weight. As long as you expect the worse and prepare for it, you won't be too shocked... Restoration's a bitgth, but well worth the time... if... what you end up with, is what you wanted to end up with.. Lotsa' luck!! | ||
| Phil Cegielski (Rt4957)
Registered Member Username: Rt4957 Post Number: 19 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 207.200.116.133 Rating: N/A |
This is Blackie,,as it sat in 1994. It has moved around some so flat Spots aren`t "Too"much of a concern. I`ve read the horror stories of the Cmmins,,but I also have fond memories (And some audio tapes) of riding them when I was young. I already have a Flx,,1975 53102,that`s been posted here before. It will be a major project,,mostly on my friends shoulders as I have "Eileen" to take care of. Thanks for the replies again. Rt4957  | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 894 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 70.48.193.92 Rating: N/A |
Phil, you can run it straight out of a 5 gallon portable tank with some tubing, hose clamps and some brass fittings. I'd bypass the stock system and connect in at the fuel filters. For longer run time, re-route the return back to the portable tank so it isn't being emptied at such a high rate into the bus tank. Eliminates all those other unknown variables and trouble shooting points and lets you concentrate on getting the engine to run. This rig, if you figure out a way to fix it in/on the bus will also let you limp around if you have fuel tank or fuel line failures. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| John Ferguson (Jarlaxle)
Registered Member Username: Jarlaxle Post Number: 11 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 65.148.23.151 Rating: N/A |
Fill the cylinders with either Dexron ATF or straight Marvel Mystery Oil. Fill the engine TO THE TOP with oil (15W-40, will need a bunch, probably 5+ cases). Go home. Let it soak in overnight (at least...a few days is better). Still full of oil, put a breaker bar on the crank & try to turn it by hand (make sure you turn the right way). Turns? Give yourself a gold star. Power-flush the cooling system...probably take a few flushes to get the crap out. The clutch (standard? auto?) disc may be stuck to the flywheel after that long. I sort of make a habit of firing up long-dormant engines...this method works pretty well. I've seen rings seat & seal properly after sitting (outside) for ~10 years. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 6 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.240.213.86 Rating: N/A |
Great information John for any coach that has "sat" for an extended period. This should be placed at the "head" of the Archives. Lotsa folks wondering about that exact procedure, I 'spect. That's what makes this board so great!  Thanx. RCB '64 Crown Supercoach (HWC) | ||
| jimmci9 #2 Unregistered guest Posted From: 209.240.206.199 Rating: N/A |
i started a 6-71 in a 5105 that had been sitting for about 12 yrs.... all the injectors were stuck... after i circulated laquer thinner thru the fuel system for about 15 mintes with an electric fuel pump, all free-d right up... with a cummins 903 it will be a little more difficult, as you'll have to tap into the fuel lines, past the fuel pump... pull the valve covers and see how much rust is underneath... you'll prolly be suprised at how little there is....roll the engine over by hand and watch the valve train (rocker arms, valves, injectors)... if any stay down, tap them up and down to free them up.... if the engine turns over at least 2 complete rounds without any major dragging, hook up batteries and try to see if it will start... but be sure to have a kill plate over the air intake to be able to kill it quickly....the cummins will start on wd-40 also....contact me at jimcat2@webtv.net if you need any help....jim | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 141 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 63.233.4.239 Rating: N/A |
"still full of oil,give it a turn" ?? good way to bend the rods,you cannot compress a liquid | ||
| sylverstone (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Registered Member Username: Sylverstone_pd4501864 Post Number: 191 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 216.173.223.253 Rating: N/A |
true, but it's going to take a lot more force to bend a rod than you're going to develop trying to turn it over with a breaker bar in an engine compartment. i'd be more concerned with accidentally starting it. the whole point of filling it to the top is to get the sleeves and rings wet, it's not like he dumped 5 gallons of oil down the air intake. -dd | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member Username: Happycampersrus Post Number: 244 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.162.110.254 Rating: N/A |
"Fill the cylinders with either Dexron ATF or straight Marvel Mystery Oil.Fill the engine TO THE TOP with oil (15W-40, will need a bunch, probably 5+ cases)." "it's not like he dumped 5 gallons of oil down the air intake." How many gallons in 5 cases?? (sarcasim) If you try to turn a Detroit over with all that in it you will have to be Superman. Let it soak over night, Then drain it down to a normal level and try and turn it over. Don't try to fill the cylinders FULL of ATF or Marvel's, but do use a good amount (about 4oz per cylinder). You should pull the injectors and pour it in the cylinders. If you try to fill them full it will fill the exhaust manifolds, exhaust and airbox. Then it makes a mess. The MAIN problem with a 2 stroke that has sat a long time with the intake and exhaust uncovered is rust forms in the cylinders and it wipes out the rings really quick. FWIW, Dale | ||
| sylverstone (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Registered Member Username: Sylverstone_pd4501864 Post Number: 192 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 216.173.223.253 Rating: N/A |
"The MAIN problem with a 2 stroke that has sat a long time with the intake and exhaust uncovered is rust forms in the cylinders and it wipes out the rings really quick." yeah, my scenicruiser has one of those in it i believe. (allthough it might just need injectors really badly) ... i'm thinking a series 60 and a 10 speed eaton autoshift are in my future, allthough i wish i knew what kind of fuel mileage i'd get. -dd | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member Username: Happycampersrus Post Number: 245 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.165.133.21 Rating: N/A |
If I could put a 60 series and a 10 speed in my bus I wouldn't care about MPG. LOL. Man, that would be a sweet ride. Dale | ||
| John Ferguson (Jarlaxle)
Registered Member Username: Jarlaxle Post Number: 12 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 65.143.26.97 Rating: N/A |
Uhh...I almost hate to bring this up, but this isn't a Detroit. It's a 903 Cummins. I've done this many times...the point of filling the cylinders with MMO/ATF is to try to get some on the valves as well as the rings. (It probably goes without saying this is a somewhet messy procedure.) By filling the engine to the top I mean the crankcase area...everything will be bone-dry, & will live much better after marinating in oil for a day or two. You have no chance of bending a rod with even my 5' breaker bar being pulled by three people. I'm a junkyard rat (and darn proud of it)...I fire dormant engines regularly. Never done it on a Jimmy (last diesel was an International DT466), but the princples are the same. Having a big (BIG!) CO2 fire extinguisher handy in case of a runaway isn't a bad idea. | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member Username: Happycampersrus Post Number: 246 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.144.58.254 Rating: N/A |
Well John, I don't know if you have ever had an engine "hydralic" on you, it ain't fun. If you fill the intake or cylinders full as you are advising to do. On the compression stroke the MMO/ATF won't have any place to go or as Bob say's it won't compress, Then you are looking at a situation to have to remove the heads to relieve the pressure. So on a 2 or 4 stroke the situation will be the same. | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 144 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.227.113.4 Rating: N/A |
Thanks Dale... I made a very expencive mistake on my dragster years ago. hauled it to a strip,got it off the trailer,& pushed it to start to warm it up,the vibration in hauling had filled the cylinders with gas & six thousand dollars later ,it was running again,YOU CANNOT COMPRESS A LIQUID, you can't turn the crank with a long prybar,because,you cannot compress a liquid | ||
| John Ferguson (Jarlaxle)
Registered Member Username: Jarlaxle Post Number: 13 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.174.109.136 Rating: N/A |
OK, I'm going to make this as simple as possible: you are wrong. Period, end of discussion. I am absolutely one hundred percent sure this method works, simply because I HAVE DONE IT MANY TIMES. I've put many miles on engines I've freed this way. Have you tried it? Come on, speak up now--what's that? No? You HAVEN'T tried it? Just as I thought. | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 149 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.226.105.204 Rating: N/A |
I have put a few ounces of diesel in a gas engine & let it sit a few days & WITH the spark plugs OUT turned it over,or pulled the vehicle, never filled a 568 cubic inch diesel FULL of automatic trans. fluid or however many cubes the 903 cummins has, & what a mess you are talking about, if you left the injectors out, & why....fill it completly, | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member Username: Happycampersrus Post Number: 247 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.166.7.213 Rating: N/A |
John, I have probably been working on heavy equipment longer than you are old. I grew up with wrenches in my hand farming and saw milling. Stuff don't run, you don't eat type of life. I currently work for one of the largest logging and saw milling companies in Va. turning wrenches on some very old and newer equipment. (several hundred pieces of equipment) I have seen dozens of diesel engines "hydralic lock" because of fuel or water and unless you can relieve the pressure in ain't gonna turn over. I am not going to argue this point as you will probably learn a very expensive lesson one day. Last but not least I have worked on alot of stuck engines and engines that have sat for a long time. I have a Boss that thinks it's fun to buy used (junk) equipment off of the internet and out of junk yards and drag it home for us to get running. So YES I have tried it, That is why I suggested to only use about 4oz of MMO or ATF down the injector hole. Good luck Phil! Dale (Message edited by Happycampersrus on September 16, 2006) (Message edited by Happycampersrus on September 16, 2006) | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member Username: Happycampersrus Post Number: 248 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.162.76.133 Rating: N/A |
I done a quick search and got this. Guess they are wrong too. LOL. FWIW, Dale www.prepsparkplugs.com/hydrofact.htm | ||
| R.J.(Bob) Evans (Bobofthenorth)
Registered Member Username: Bobofthenorth Post Number: 103 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 142.165.179.195 Rating: |
I don't think anyone is arguing whether or not hydrolock occurs. The question is whether it will happen pulling on a breaker bar. And the answer is - even if it does happen - no damage is going to occur unless you happen to have Superman pulling the breaker bar. Even then the breaker bar is likely in more danger than the rods. The OP has a V8. He's going to need more oil in the cylinders to get the rings wet all around than if he had an inline six. Probably 4 oz is not enough in that situation. If he gets too much in he'll have to take the injectors out to relieve the pressure. His only precaution should be to not engage the starter until he can roll the engine freely by hand. IMHO. Farmer fix - when guys are restoring old tractors that have sat for years they sometimes rig a fitting so they can put hydraulic pressure to the pistons and use tractor hydraulics to free things up. (Message edited by bobofthenorth on September 17, 2006) | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member Username: Happycampersrus Post Number: 249 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.162.90.9 Rating: |
RJ, The 13th post down by John suggest that Phil FILL the cylinders with MMO or ATF. I do realize that no damage is going to happen by pulling on a breaker bar. That is not the issue here. My original reason for posting is to inform Phil that if he tries to fill all the cylinders up with fluid He will be in for a surprize if He tries to pull the engine over with a breaker bar or spin it with the starter. It ain't gonna turn unless you take the injectors out. Then all that rust, crap, and Marvel's will be all over the top end of his engine running down to his oil pan. Now all that new oil he has put in is contaminated. I wouldn't attack this method if John had suggested removing the injectors. Guess he would tell him that after he posted again asking why won't the engine turn. The way it is posted here is gonna get someone into trouble that has not seen this situation before. I'm a ASE certified heavy equipment mechanic and have been for years so it don't matter to me, but it will matter to someone (maybe Phil) when he is wondering what to do after he has a mess on his hands. No pun intended! Also 4oz of oil is twice the amount it will take to hydrolock a cylinder. A little will go along way. All we want to do here is coat the rings and cylinders, not fill the exhaust manifolds. A more common sense approach to get the valves lubed before trying to start it is to pour fresh motor oil all over the valves and rocker arms and if you can tap everything with a rubber mallet or nylon tipped hammer to see if any valves are stuck or stick open. They will bend on the first revolution if they stick open. On some engines you can work the valves by pushing them with a hammer handle a few times. But what do I know I'm just a dumb ole mechanic with around 40yrs experience. | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 150 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.227.114.49 Rating: N/A |
a couple of ounces of diesel will be fine "IF" it has a place to go after sitting for a few days ,the diesel will enter the cylinder & go directly to where the moisture went ,that stuck the engine,but you MUST have ALL the injectors OUT ,( or ) spark plugs ,in a gas engine,we must attempt at a little moderation here, the 'engine diareaha' situation,is just TOOOO much overkill, & was not explained well, you MUST have an escape for the fluids you have inserted into the cylinders | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1022 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.195.113.23 Rating: N/A |
Dale - Your comments above were directed to Bob of the North, not me, correct? | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member Username: Happycampersrus Post Number: 250 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 172.135.30.125 Rating: N/A |
Mr. Long I am not directing any comments towards you. Sorry about that. I should have said Bob of the North. Dale | ||
| John Ferguson (Jarlaxle)
Registered Member Username: Jarlaxle Post Number: 14 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.174.106.173 Rating: N/A |
Does anyone here actually think I was suggesting doing this with the injectors in the engine?!?! I thought that was so obvious I didn't have to say it, along the lines of "don't try to start it with no oil in the pan". I spent most of Sunday driving a truck with an engine I freed with EXACTLY the method I posted here. Cylinders filled with MMO, engine (crankcase) filled to the top with oil, let it sit a few days (a weekend, as I recall). Spin it with the breaker bar a few times, drain the crankcase, injectors back in, pan full of fresh 15W-40 Delvac, prime the fuel system, and fire it up. Good ring seal, minimal oil useage, no valve problems. Also, this WILL tell you if you have any leaking gaskets. As I said...it's a rather messy procedure. | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Registered Member Username: Drivingmisslazy Post Number: 1681 Registered: 1-2001 Posted From: 75.108.82.163 Rating: N/A |
John, from the number of responses, I do not think anyone considered that you were assuming that everybody knew to remove the injectors. Remember we are not all master mechanics and many newbees read this board. Richard |
