| Author | Message | ||
| Eric the Wrench Unregistered guest Posted From: 72.11.87.44 Rating: N/A |
I have begun looking for a school bus to convert, and it will be my first. I just came across a 1980 International that is looking pretty nice, but the engine is propane fueled. What would be the benifits, draw backs and need to know about running a propane bus? Mileage, availability, warnings, encouragement??? Thanks anyone for suggestions | ||
| Mike (Busone)
Registered Member Username: Busone Post Number: 330 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.33.24.110 Rating: N/A |
Propane costs less than diesel but it does not have the same amount of energy per gallon. You will need a bigger tank of propane to go the same distance with diesel. You might also have a hard time finding propane in some places. From what I have read an engine burning propane will last longer and of course burn cleaner. Personally I like my diesel school bus. If I drive at 55Mph I can get 13MPG. I can find diesel at almost any gas station. I could also get in a wreck and not worry about spilled fuel exploding, not that I want to get into a wreck. | ||
| JR Lynch (Njt5047)
Registered Member Username: Njt5047 Post Number: 85 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 69.132.238.127 Rating: N/A |
Mike's got it right...you are going to be severely limited in where you go with a propane powered vehicle. It'll have a big fuel tank, but will go thru it quick. I would check with someone that's familiar with the propane coach find the max distance per fuel fill. Propane quantity is not readily compared to petro fuel. Your range may be far less than you wish...or expect. Doubt explosion is an issue in an ex-school bus. Leaks can be an issue. No one other than fork lift shops could work on it. Propane is generally limited to intracity services. I'd consider going with diesel... JR | ||
| John Ferguson (Jarlaxle)
Registered Member Username: Jarlaxle Post Number: 18 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.174.106.89 Rating: N/A |
The engine shouldn't be hard to convert to gasoline...maybe just a carb, tank, & lines from a similar gas bus in a junkyard. I run a gas-engine Ford skoolie. | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 244 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.227.119.26 Rating: N/A |
It can run on both gas and propane,propane is cheaper,if you wanted to be 'sneaky',you could have a 500 gallon tank at home (for heating  & fuel your bus with it | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 4 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 4.245.242.89 Rating: N/A |
if you wanted to be 'sneaky',you could have a 500 gallon tank at home (for heating :-) & fuel your bus with it You mean just like folks that run on #2 house fuel? FAST FRED | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 25 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 24.127.158.82 Rating: N/A |
Calif CHP, ATF, and local agencies are now stopping everybody who sounds like they have a diesel at a roadblock. They put a clear plastic tube in your tank, and suck. Very low tech, not OSHA approved, but. If it comes up red, you get to drive to the side of the road, then they pump it all out, AND fine you $1000 for the first offense. They pulled my Dodge P/U out of the line just by noise, and I found out the penalty while I was waiting for the guy with the tube. I don't think there is such a thing as red propane though? | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member Username: Happycampersrus Post Number: 261 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 24.172.238.2 Rating: N/A |
A couple of gallons of used Detroit motor oil will turn a 100 gallons of off road diesel black. Then suck away my little CHP friend. UMM, UMM, GOOD. It's also funny to think that ingesting diesel WILL give you a screaming case of the runs. (Message edited by happycampersrus on October 15, 2006) | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 214 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 68.159.83.5 Rating: N/A |
With the great lengths the gubberment goes to collect the road tax on fuel, I'd think that if the fuel in your tank was ANY color other than normal road diesel, they will assume you're guilty & make you prove it was legit fuel. Kinda hard to do without receipts. Personally, I've got better things to do with my time than to try to win that lottery. | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Registered Member Username: Drivingmisslazy Post Number: 1712 Registered: 1-2001 Posted From: 75.108.82.163 Rating: N/A |
My SIL works for a well drilling company and has access to all the off road fuel he wants at no cost. However, he does not use any in his diesel pickup. FWIW, according to him the local DMV or Environmental agency has electronic pickups (sniffers) that only need to check the exhaust of vehicles passing by to determine that they are using off road fuel. For that reason the whole crew on his drilling rig use legal fuel. Richard | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member Username: Happycampersrus Post Number: 262 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 24.172.238.2 Rating: N/A |
My buddy is a chemist for Chevron and swears up and down that the addition of fuel dye is impossible to detect off road diesel with any type of sniffer UNLESS some other chemical is added after being sold, but he has never heard of that being done. I don't know what else to say except I left Fancy Gap, Va. last Thurs and I am currently sitting at a campground in Myrtle Beach. I had 10 gallons of old Kerosene that I put in before I left to get rid of it and I ran I77 to 74 to 501 to 544 and I never got pulled or seen a "fuel check" station. | ||
| Larry Ward (Rts_parts)
Registered Member Username: Rts_parts Post Number: 43 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 205.188.116.13 Rating: N/A |
We run 3 semi trucks in our business and only get checked about one evey couple of years. Each time it has only been with a clear straw like a piece of tubing about 2 foot long. The DOT puts the straw into the semi tank, put their finger over the top end and pull the straw out of the tank. Once they see the color they lift their finger and the tiny bit of fuel drains back into the tank. I would think the fines are REAL steep if you get caught doing a NO-NO. It is not worth the risk. | ||
| Mike (Busone)
Registered Member Username: Busone Post Number: 332 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.33.24.110 Rating: N/A |
My cousin is also in the peteroleum business and he also said they don't add any sort of tracer to off road diesel. He did say that it has more sulfur since it does not have to meet the same regulations as on road. Since most reefer trucks use off road for the reefer unit I would think the "sniffers" would be giving false alarms all the time if they really do exist. | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member Username: Happycampersrus Post Number: 263 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 24.172.238.2 Rating: N/A |
I heard that next year they are going to combine the sniffer with a radar gun, so they can see if you are speeding with red diesel. LOL. Dale | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 250 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.227.112.85 Rating: |
I think it's the K.G.B. & they just want to know what you had for dinner last night | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Registered Member Username: Drivingmisslazy Post Number: 1713 Registered: 1-2001 Posted From: 75.108.82.163 Rating: N/A |
They set up near our town occasionally and the word is that it is the added sulfur in off road fuel that they can detect from the exhaust. Maybe not 100% accurate, but enough that they can catch a few cheaters and scare the others into not using the off road fuel. Lots of oil well drilling going on around here and there is thousands of gallons of off road fuel available to all the drilling crews. Some even carry a couple of 55 gallon drums in the back of their pickup. Richard | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 52 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.141.144.203 Rating: N/A |
A truly resourceful busnut who was: A. Inclined to cheat the system (certainly not me). B. Had access to lots of off-road diesel. Would install a small 5 gallon tank to the fuel filler and keep it full of "clean diesel" and hide the filler for the main tank in a bay somewhere. Legal use of off-road for the generator would take care of the "sniffer" if there really is such a thing. Len | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1050 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.181.163.170 Rating: |
Eric - Good questions. FYI, the local transit agency has quite a few CNG buses. Granted, CNG is not propane, but fuel mileage is similar. NONE of the CNG buses can make it thru a 200-mile day without being pulled off the line to be refueled. What does that tell you? HTH. . . | ||
| Mark R. Obtinario (Cowlitzcoach)
Registered Member Username: Cowlitzcoach Post Number: 121 Registered: 4-2001 Posted From: 206.163.13.37 Rating: N/A |
Getting back to the original question of is a propane powered bus a good choice, I would say no in most cases. If the bus is never going more than 75 miles from home and speed is not an issue, propane could be a good choice. Any further distance and you may not have enough fuel to go round trip without a fuel refill. Propane has fewer BTU's per unit of fuel so it takes considerably more units of fuel to do the same amount of work. Propane powered vehicles also lose considerably in the get up and go business as well. Propane powered buses made really poor hill climbing buses. One of the real problems of a 1980 IHC is the engine is most likely a MV404/446 V-8. Since IHC stopped making any gas engines more than 20 years ago the parts and pieces are getting really $$$! A good used MV446 crank can cost as much as a completely rebuilt Chevy small block. If it has a 304/345/392 the parts are little easier to find since IHC made a lot more of them than they made of the MV404/446 engines. Even still, the parts and pieces cost considerably more than Ford and Chevy gas V-8 parts and pieces. Converting a propane powered bus back to gas power is not all that hard. The biggest challenge in swapping back to gas power is finding or making all of the sheet metal stuff for the carb warm air heat ducting. Without some way of getting warm air to the carb you will experience a lot of carb icing when the ambient temp and humidity are just right (or wrong depending on your point of view). If the choice were between two buses that were pretty much identical in condition and one was diesel and one was propane I would go with the diesel bus if it had a DT466, Cat 3208, Detroit 8.2L or 2-cycle, or Cummins B series 5.9L or C series 8.3L engine. Good luck and I hope you find the bus that works for you. Mark O. | ||
| John Ferguson (Jarlaxle)
Registered Member Username: Jarlaxle Post Number: 19 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.174.109.96 Rating: N/A |
"FYI, the local transit agency has quite a few CNG buses. Granted, CNG is not propane, but fuel mileage is similar. NONE of the CNG buses can make it thru a 200-mile day without being pulled off the line to be refueled. What does that tell you?" The guy who spec'd the fuel tank size was/is an idiot? I'd expect a 1980 IH to have International's immensely-durable 345 engine (possibly a 304, maybe a 392, but almost every gas IH I've seen is a 345). Rebuild parts are easy to find (there are thousands of these still running, not even mentioning the rabid cult following the International Scout has), and the engines are durable beyond belief. Rebuild parts (rings, pistons, bearings, etc.) are available from the usual places (Jegs, Federal-Mogul, etc.), & the online IH community can help if you need some oddball part. Valves and such are easy--I've heard of many people using Chevy valves, which fit with minor machining, & the intakes are generally able to be cleaned up & reused with new guides. As for carb heat, the intake may have an exhaust heat crossover--if so, no worries. If not, one thing I've seen is to loop one of the heater hoses completely around the carb. It sounds pretty goofy, but I've seen it work--it eliminated a problem taht had rendered the car almost undriveable (the vehicle had an open-element air cleaner & headers, so no heat ducting possible). Almost 10 years later, the setup still works. Running propane (a VERY clean fuel) since day one, I wouldn't be even a little surprised to see 500,000 miles from a 345. I've torn down propane engines, and they're almost always very clean inside--I yanked a 350 Chevy from a G-30 van that had over 200,000 miles (ran, but rotted badly). According to the service stuff I got, the oil was changed roughly (sometimes VERY roughly) every 15,000 miles...considering this was a highway department van, I expect it also did plenty of idling in the course of running up those miles. I pulled a valve cover...and the engine looked like it had gone together THAT MORNING. Minimal sludge, valves not just clean but having ZERO carbon, minimal bore ridge, bearings in good shape...I'd have guessed the mileage at about a quarter of what it actually had. I have NEVER seen a high-mile gasoline engine anywhere near as clean as that one. | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1057 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.181.163.170 Rating: N/A |
John - No, the guy who spec'd the fuel tank wasn't an idiot - they spec'd the bus with the largest roof-top tanks available, which are bigger than the under-belly tanks. Transits go thru a lot of CNG at 1.5 - 2 mpg vs. 4 mpg for diesel. FWIW & HTH. . . | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 28 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.80.150 Rating: N/A |
C N G = COMPRESSED Natural Gas L P G = LIQUIFIED Petroleum Gas Methane "Natural Gas" won't liquefy at room temperatures, so CNG tanks are full of compressed gas, versus propane tanks which are filled to 86% with liquid. A propane fueled engine runs on liquid which is evaporated in the regulator and carburetor, which is why propane engines have the extra heater lines run thru the regulator to keep it from freezing. I don't know how many HUNDRED cubic feet of propane gas is generated by evaporating a gallon of propane, but its a lot! Consequently, a propane tank is only rated for 250-300psi, while a CNG cylinder is full at 2000psi. The propane tank is rated in gallons, while the CNG cylinder is rated in cubic feet. g | ||
| John Ferguson (Jarlaxle)
Registered Member Username: Jarlaxle Post Number: 20 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.174.91.47 Rating: N/A |
Actually, most propane tanks I see are rated for capacity in pounds. | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 271 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.90.25.56 Rating: N/A |
most that I see are rated in gallons |
