| Author | Message | ||
| dilip & zoe sinha (Vintagehounds)
Registered Member Username: Vintagehounds Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 71.197.127.97 Rating: N/A |
We bought a 1957 GMC 4104 w DD 671. We need to pick it up out of state and we would like to find new tires. We would like any advice you may have on where we could find these large tire sizes: 11 x 20 for this bus. Thanks! | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 13 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 4.245.170.128 Rating: N/A |
Pick up the bus and drive to any tire store that is for TRUCKS. They will have the tires you need. Then get a baseball bat , and stand on the drivers side and "remind" the wheel puller that your antique has LEFT hand studs . And is so marked. If he snaps them off , you will be VERY unhappy! FAST FRED | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 267 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.90.24.166 Rating: N/A |
11:00x20....those are all bias ( I think )...if you really want to do it correctly, you need to get 6 wheels,either 22.5 or 24.5 & get radial tires, I had bias on a motorhome ,& after it sits for a while,they get flat spots on the bottom,the first 20 miles,it will shake all you dishes out of the cabinets, 6 used wheels should cost about150.00 if you shop around at truck salvage yard | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 268 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.90.24.166 Rating: N/A |
even "IF" they have 11x20 radials, I would still get 22.5 or 24.5 wheels..cause 11x20 are tube type, & you will need new tubes,now is a good time to 'modernize' | ||
| John Ferguson (Jarlaxle)
Registered Member Username: Jarlaxle Post Number: 21 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.174.91.47 Rating: N/A |
You need to find a truck tire shop & talk to the oldest guy there...you need two highway rib 11.00R20's, four 11.00R20 Bandags for the drives, and maybe six new tubes. At the least, carry the best of the old tires & a tube as spares. Alternately, 10.00R20's might work--they're more common & probably MUCH cheaper. If you switch to 22.5's, a 12R22.5 is equal to an 11.00-20. An 11R22.5 is far more common (it's what 90% of semis run) & cheaper, equivilant to a 10.00-20. | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1063 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.181.163.170 Rating: N/A |
Good advice regarding tires. 11R22.5 and 11R24.5 are the most common truck tires available today, are reasonably (for the size) priced, and either are a good choice. The 24.5s are a little taller, will give you slightly more top speed. Regarding wheels, you need to be cautious, as there are two types: hub-piloted and stud-piloted. They are not interchangeable. Before buying new ones, check to see what's already on the coach. Easiest way is to look at the lug nuts. If they have an attached washer, the wheels are hub-piloted. If they look like giant automotive lug nuts, with a champhered edge, they're stud-piloted. Also, look closely at the wheel studs. They may or may not be different on each side. Not unusual to find Left-Hand threads on the street side. There should be either an "R" or an "L" stamped on the end of the stud. The letters indicate which thread they are. You might mention where the coach is located, both here and over on the MAK BBS. With that info, local busnuts can help "steer" you to a decent tire dealer. (pun intended!!) HTH. . .  | ||
| bernie newcomb (Newk)
Registered Member Username: Newk Post Number: 6 Registered: 9-2006 Posted From: 64.12.116.138 Rating: N/A |
i have 11-24.5 rubber on my 4104, i think the 22.5 would be better if you have a tall gear in your 4104. i got mine at a ok tires store, they were about 1800 $ but should be good for a long time mine are cooper tires good luck | ||
| dilip & zoe sinha (Vintagehounds)
Registered Member Username: Vintagehounds Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 71.197.127.97 Rating: N/A |
hi all! Thanks for your fast response! We are very excited about our new home, we are upgrading from a 21 ft Holiday Rambler (gas) to this diesel unit and it will be different we know! The people we are buying from do not know much, it was a inheritance. They said there are 4 tires, we think there might be duallies and most of you said 6 wheels, is that the case with this bus? Our pictures of the bus do not show how many....... We are picking it up near Lansing, MI. Any shop recommendations are welcome. Thanks again for your help everyone! Dilip and Zoe | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 329 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.126.56 Rating: N/A |
If you have the 3:55 rear, then you probably should go with 11X22.5, which are used by trucks and a bit smaller than 1100X20. Will help a little when starting out and backing up, esp on a grade. Also very easy to obtain out on the road. Might lower top speed 3 mph. If you have 4:11, I wouldn't go to them, as the top speed loss might not be acceptable, and usually startability isn't as much a problem.1100x20 size is getting harder to find, but not impossible as time passes.Too bad you don't live on the east coast, as NIMCO sells 12:00x22.5 used tires on alum and possibly steel rims quite reasonable.I'm also sure you can find a company out there with something similar. If you plan on steel rims, probably someone on this site has spare tubeless wheels they would be interested in selling, because of changing over to alum. | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Registered Member Username: Drivingmisslazy Post Number: 1715 Registered: 1-2001 Posted From: 75.108.82.163 Rating: N/A |
You have 6 tires and wheels. Try and get the vehicle to a local truck tire shop and have them evaluate the tires. DO NOT jump into buying new tires and wheels if you do not actually have to do it immediately. If the previous owner had been using it within the past few months then you should be good to get home. Then evaluate what you actually want to buy. In general you do need to get to a more modern tire and wheel as others have recommended. But you do not have to do that immediately unless the present tires are in such bad condition that you can not drive on them far enough to get the bus home. Richard | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
Registered Member Username: Drdave Post Number: 693 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 67.78.176.54 Rating: N/A |
If those Rims on the bus are the split rims that have an inner and outer ring, You may not be able to find anyone to change the rubber. Many tire guys won't go near a split rim because they are deadly and their liability insurance won't cover accidents with them. You might be better off getting a set of 22.5 rims with some runable rubber on them, change out the split rims and drive it home. The 11R 22.5 is close to the 11.00/20 size and most car hauler rigs run the 11R22.5's on their trucks. ( lowers the truck )... | ||
| Douglas Wotring (Tekebird)
Registered Member Username: Tekebird Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.136.90.146 Rating: N/A |
although the tires may make it home....having a tire failure with spit rims and bias ply tires away from home will be a pain in the arse. this is what you need to get at minimum 1. maint and parts manuals for the 4104 2. ^ new or used Stud Piloted (Budd) wheels 3. three non retread tires ( rib design) 4. 4 other tires. No need to get any traction type tread. Most bus companies runn all position rib all the way around even in the NE and rockies I would advise against used tires as you don't know what happened to them before you got them. Retreads on the rear are OK but you can't use them as a stteer or spare. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 215 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 63.97.117.20 Rating: N/A |
My 4104 has 11:00R x 22.5 on the front and 11:00 x 22.5 on the rear and it has worked very well for 13,000 miles in one year. I plan to eventually put 11:00R x 22.5 on the rear but am not in any big rush. I probably will go with the Bandags. As already posted, do not go to 24.5 or 12:00 tires, they are too big for the 6-71 engine in the 4104. It is geared too high for those tires. Learn to drive at 60 mph and enjoy the scenery and good fuel mileage. | ||
| Douglas Wotring (Tekebird)
Registered Member Username: Tekebird Post Number: 3 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.136.90.146 Rating: N/A |
I run 12222r22.5's on my 04. get 8-11mpg and can run 75mph all day long | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member Username: Happycampersrus Post Number: 267 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 69.19.14.40 Rating: N/A |
12222r22.5's ???? Try to get the bus home before you start wheel hunting that way you can take your time without having to pay some way out prices. Then you can check with some TRUCK junkyards for a good deal on wheels and maybe tires. I wouldn't want to put alot of money in absolete 11x20 tires, unless it just has to have one or two before you can drive it home. (Message edited by Happycampersrus on October 22, 2006) | ||
| Douglas Wotring (Tekebird)
Registered Member Username: Tekebird Post Number: 5 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.136.90.146 Rating: N/A |
12r22.5...typo. absolete???? LOL | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member Username: Happycampersrus Post Number: 268 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 69.19.14.40 Rating: N/A |
absolete = one to many ebers or is it? eebrs or is it? beres or is it? beers. Yea thats it. | ||
| lyle davis (Lyle)
Registered Member Username: Lyle Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 71.231.255.165 Rating: N/A |
It is amazing to me how many people think just because the rim size is 24.5...That makes the tire taller. It does not. You can buy a tire with rim size 24.5 that is actually shorter than a tire bought for a rim size 22.5 Talk to your tire dealer. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 216 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 63.97.117.50 Rating: N/A |
Lyle, I assume you are talking about low profile tires, but they are way more expensive and I don't see the point of using them on a bus that will never wear out any tire. | ||
| dilip & zoe sinha (Vintagehounds)
Registered Member Username: Vintagehounds Post Number: 3 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 71.197.127.97 Rating: N/A |
thanks all again for inputs and jokes. I have a couple more questions now . Does anyone know what the aspect ratio of all these tires described is? And what is the average optimum cruising speed for this motor and rig? assuming im running the original size 20"s . I think im just going to bring or have ready a matching spare. | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1067 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.181.163.170 Rating: |
Dilip & Zoe - A 4104 will run happily all day long at 60 mph and give you about 10 mpg in the process. Now, since Lyle brought it up, here's some important info for you to work with, when it comes to considering tires/wheels that nobody's mentioned yet: GMC designed the powertrain based on tires that turn 495 revs per mile. If you buy tires that turn MORE than 495/mile, then your top speed will drop slightly and your fuel consumption will go up. OTOH, the coach will pull mountain grades a little easier and accelerate a little faster (altho still a tortoise). If you buy tires that turn LESS than 495/mile, you will have the opposite effect: slightly better fuel mileage, slightly better top speed, and slightly poorer hill-climbing (earlier downshifting) and acceleration (older tortoise). Doesn't make any difference if it's a 22.5 or a 24.5 inch rim, it's the tire's revs per mile that are important. All commercial truck tires have spec charts that list the revs/mile for the various tire sizes, and a decent dealer will work with you to match what the factory engineered, or what the owner wants. BTW, 90% of the 4104s out there have 4.125:1 rear axle ratios. Oh, and before you go, get a copy of "The Bus Garage Index", published by the same folk who print the industry mag "Bus Ride". Lists bus garages all over the country, well worth the $$. Here's a link to their website: http://www.busride.com/Directory.cfm FWIW & HTH. . . | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 275 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.90.25.108 Rating: N/A |
you are fixing to make a decision that you will have to live with for the next ten years,you are going to spend 2000 for tires,and it 'sounds 'like you are still thinking 20 inch,altho,everybody says to go tubeless | ||
| Larry D Baker (Lbaker4106)
Registered Member Username: Lbaker4106 Post Number: 42 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 209.153.132.42 Rating: N/A |
I would go to the 22.5 tires and rims. I live near Lansing and if you have questions you can email me at larrydbaker@netscape.net. I purchased tires from Farm Bureau in Charlotte but I'm not sure if they have rims. I would check the tires to see if they would get you home. | ||
| John Ferguson (Jarlaxle)
Registered Member Username: Jarlaxle Post Number: 23 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.174.109.166 Rating: N/A |
Bob: You paid $2K for six tires? Did they dip them in gold, by any chance? | ||
| Douglas Wotring (Tekebird)
Registered Member Username: Tekebird Post Number: 10 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.136.90.146 Rating: N/A |
cheapest non Korean or some other third world tire in 12r22.5 I found was Firestone at 350 and change each..... thats 2100.00 for 6 | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member Username: Happycampersrus Post Number: 269 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 69.19.14.38 Rating: N/A |
6 New Toyo 275/70R22.5 will cost $2K 6 New Goodyear will cost just over $2100.00 6 New Michelin will cost around $2800.00 Then throw in a set of rims. Or you might get a deal from a truck scrap yard on used wheels and tires. Just be aware that you won't know the history of the tires. Check the date codes and look for tires that have not been capped and hope they were never run flat. | ||
| dilip & zoe sinha (Vintagehounds)
Registered Member Username: Vintagehounds Post Number: 5 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 71.197.127.97 Rating: N/A |
everyone has been very nice and thoughtful with their opinion for us and ive come to a decision about what id like to see the bus end up with . nice aluminum wheels for the rig and tire size goodyear 275/70r22.5 . im going to plan for 2 wheels and tires for the front when i pick it up and deal with the rear tires and wheels when i get home. this will allow me 2 spare tires for my trip and i would rather end up with more modern tubeless tires and wheels in the long run. if you are near to lansing and know of the best deal for two set ups for the front end please let me know. thanks again D&Z. | ||
| Douglas Wotring (Tekebird)
Registered Member Username: Tekebird Post Number: 11 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.136.90.146 Rating: N/A |
you must have some $$ if your wanting aluminum......although you will need longer studs for those..... 275 are a bit narrow compared to a 12R IMOH | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1070 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.181.163.170 Rating: N/A |
Agree with Doug - 275/70R22.5 are too small. Should go 295/80 or 315/80, much closer to OEM gearing. Also agree re: longer studs needed for Aluminum wheels. More $$$. . . HTH. . . | ||
| Douglas Wotring (Tekebird)
Registered Member Username: Tekebird Post Number: 12 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.136.90.146 Rating: N/A |
the 295's are alost 3/4 of an inch narrower if and the 315 about 1/2 in wider IIRC | ||
| John Ferguson (Jarlaxle)
Registered Member Username: Jarlaxle Post Number: 24 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 131.109.225.62 Rating: N/A |
A 275/70 is WAY too small--a 275/80 or 295/75R22.5 is even kind of short. The current coach size seems to be 315/80R22.5--similar to a 12R22.5 tire. Korean tires are fine--I'm seeing more and more Hankooks and Kumhos around. Just avoid Doublecoin. So, two Hankook or Kelly Armorsteel 11R22.5 rib tires & four 11R22.5 Bandags...what's that cost? Of course, were it my money, I'd just go with 10.00R20's. | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member Username: Happycampersrus Post Number: 270 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 69.19.14.43 Rating: N/A |
I should have looked up the pricing on 315/80 and not just posted about the 275/70 tires. I posted about the 275/70 tires because I know exactly what they cost (just bought 2) and I have been running them for 6 yrs. That post was just for a "ballpark" $$ figure on what Dilip could expect to pay for tires. But FWIW the 275/70 will be 10.9" wide with a OD of 970mm or 38" at 545 revs per mile compared to the 315/80 that is 12.25 wide with a OD of 1090mm or 43" at 491 revs per mile. Also the foot print of a 11.00x20 will be about the same as a 275/70 were a 315/80 will be around a 1 1/4" wider. The taller tire will give you more top speed, but the shorter tire will give you lower gearing or a slight power increase which is helpful with climbing. I would like to see the guy's face when you want him to replace a 10.00x20 tube type on a split rim while on the side of the road. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 17 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 4.245.230.52 Rating: N/A |
The class 8 new truck dealers is a great place to locate heavy duty new steel rims. The truck guys install aluminum wheels to increase the payload , and many dealers are awash with NEW steel wheels. We found the really heavy duty Accurides from the local Kenworth folks at $65 each. BEWARE ,you will have to have the dealer dig thru the pile for wheels that mount with your'e old style studs. If youre going cruising switching to the most common , easiest to find tires makes sense. FAST FRED | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1074 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.181.163.170 Rating: N/A |
Buying tires for your coach is a whole lot different than slapping a new set on your car. IF Dilip & Zoe want to keep the performance of their 4104 stock, they need to find tires that come as close as possible to OEM specs: 495 revs per mile Very important with the 6-71 engine in this coach. The 275/70R22.5 tire that Dale mentions, turning 545 rev/mile, equates to a 10 percent loss in top speed (which is already low in a 4104), as well as a 10 percent increase in fuel consumption! Something to consider with $3/gallon diesel. But every tire manufacturer's sizes are a little different, in terms of revs/mile. As a few examples, Goodyear's G670 RV MRT tire, designed w/ more UV inhibitors for RV use, gives the following specs: 275/70R22.5 = 548 r/m 295/80R22.5 = 499 r/m 315/80R22.5 = 489 r/m Checking Michelin, I found their XZA2 Energy with these specs: 275/70R22.5 = 545 r/m 295/80R22.5 = 503 r/m 315/80R22.2 = 492 r/m Over on the Bridgestone page, their R250F specs out at: 275/70R22.5 = 547 r/m 295/80R22.5 = 499 r/m 315/80R22.5 = 489 r/m (R294) Note that the Michelin 315/80 is almost exactly the same as the OEM GMC spec'd tire: 492 vs 495. The other two 315s, from Goodyear and Bridgestone, are slightly taller (489 vs 495). All of the 275/70s are in that 10% loss range, while the 295/80s are much closer to OEM. Checking on the extremely popular 11R22.5, all three companies are very close at 501, 503 and 504 r/m. A good compromise, perhaps? Obviously, this post does not factor in $$$, that wasn't it's intent. Prices vary widely, so it pays to shop. At least Dilip & Zoe are trying to do their homework before they make a decision - good for them! FWIW & HTH. . . | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member Username: Happycampersrus Post Number: 272 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 69.19.14.35 Rating: N/A |
WOW!, If I change my tires I can go 6 mph faster. Better set them road blocks up! We have a madman on the loose and he is almost speeding. LOL. OTOH, I can get from 0 to 70 quik and climb just about any grade I need to, but I live in the Blue Ridge Mtns and set my coach up for that purpose. I tend to stay away from the interstates. A good point has been brought up though, is do your homework. If you were to do alot of flat land driving by all means go for a tall tire. If you are in the Mtns, I would (and did) go for a shorter tire. If that "10%" increase in fuel worries you, DONT buy a bus as fuel will be one of the cheapest things you will ever buy for it. | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1076 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.181.163.170 Rating: N/A |
"A good point has been brought up though, is do your homework. If you were to do alot of flat land driving by all means go for a tall tire. If you are in the Mtns, I would (and did) go for a shorter tire." Exactly the point I was trying to make - Dale just put it more succinctly. Thanks! Everything's a compromise - gotta find what works for you! | ||
| dilip & zoe sinha (Vintagehounds)
Registered Member Username: Vintagehounds Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 71.197.127.97 Rating: N/A |
Although I wish the 11x20s were still being made for the more modern speeds and tubeless type set ups. Im going to try to cruise home with whats on there already and pick up a spare. keeping in mind the 315 or 285 goodyears with the 22.5 set up for future. We intend on using the bus mainly cruising flatlands but the occasional climb to adventure. Basic mixed terrains but mainly highway cruising. Sounds like the 285 or 315 22.5S will give a good compromise size for whatever way your driving habits may need. I can tell you that tires are different between manufacturers in the same size. seems to be a large percentage gap in uniformity between manufacturers size to size. I can tell you a bit about passenger and light truck tires as I owned and operated a Big O tire store for many years. Commercial truck was hardly ever brought up at my level of business but has many similarities. I really appreciate all your guys input . I really feel much more educated in the matter and will continue to think about the wheels and tires that I will go to but am in a space that I can feel comfortable with what ever i decide thanks to all of you.. Dilip and Zoe. | ||
| sylverstone (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Registered Member Username: Sylverstone_pd4501864 Post Number: 211 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 216.173.223.253 Rating: N/A |
i've got a '56 scenicruiser. did a run from seattle wa to berlin, nj, with a lot of sightseeing on the way. covered something like 10,000 miles. my bus has an 8v71 and a spicer 4 speed in it. rear end ratio is 3.70:1 she does 10 in first, 20 in second, 40 in third, 68 in 4th. the drive tires on it are "aurora all steel radial 12r22.5 14 ply histeel runner z-31" which i have never heard of. the factory spec is the same as your bus, but mine uses 10 of 'em. the rig during the trip weighted 55k. for the most part, she was a dream, although i climbed the continental divide (eastbound) at 20mph on the governor in 2nd gear (couldn't pull it in 3rd) ... on the way back, crossing the divide again, i got caught up in bocking traffic and had to drop down to 1st, and i ended up stuck there all the way to the top, as i couldn't pull the hill in second after the 1-2 shift when rpm's were low. all in all, a really fun trip, although i really could have used more gears *weight* has more affect on gas mileage than you would imagine. if you're not in a hurry, and you're not really heavy, taller tires may not be a bad thing. my cruiser had no problem at all with a 3 mile 9.5% grade... but i hit it on the governor in 1st. hope this helps -dd | ||
| John Ferguson (Jarlaxle)
Registered Member Username: Jarlaxle Post Number: 25 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.174.106.156 Rating: N/A |
"I would like to see the guy's face when you want him to replace a 10.00x20 tube type on a split rim while on the side of the road." Been there, done that...took him about 20 minutes on the old F-800 (split Daytons, 10.00R20 tube tires). Just make sure to carry a spare tire AND A SPARE TUBE. Actually, he just pulled the tire, replaced the punctured tube, & remounted it. | ||
| Dale Waller (Happycampersrus)
Registered Member Username: Happycampersrus Post Number: 273 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 66.82.9.92 Rating: N/A |
Must be different up north. None of the road service folks down here will touch them unless you or them take the whole wheel assy to their shop. Liability issues is what I am told by several tire shops. They won't inflate one without a cage. Guess no one has gotten sued up there yet. LOL. We have alot of log trucks were I work. So now if the driver doesn't have a servicable spare one of us has to take them one, so we just change it. |
