| Author | Message | ||
| Michael Sheldon (Msheldon)
Registered Member Username: Msheldon Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 68.230.115.166 Rating: N/A |
I've read quite a bit on the board, and I'm already far better off for it, but I'm still feeling my way around a bit. Here's the situation: I help run a charity that works at renaissance faires promoting adoption of retired racing greyhounds. We mostly travel within a radius of 400 miles one-way, currently 6-7 times/year. (we're looking at increasing that) Currently, I use a 25' Toy Hauler as our "base of operations" and cargo hauler. (We have approx 3,000 lbs of gear). Problem is, I'm pushing the limits of my current truck, a 3/4 ton Avalanche, and there's NOTHING else out there that can tow 12K and have room for 5-6 greyhounds inside the vehicle. Another couple travels with us, but they have it easy, they just pile their dogs into their van and follow us.  I'm starting to look a lot more closely at purchasing a bus to convert, and towing a cargo-hauler behind it for our gear. Our friends and their dogs would also travel in the bus with us. Some questions that came to mind: Is a bus structurally safe to operate with the interior stripped? I will likely be doing the interior build myself, and know that it will take some time to do. However, I will have to sell my current trailer to afford fitting out a bus. My plan would be to leave a couple of the forward seats in it temporarily and fit some spaces for the dogs, then fit out bathroom/shower, kitchen next, then fill in everything else. It's not too big a deal not to have beds, etc for a while, since we often sleep in our huge tents when working at faires. The RV has mostly been for kitchen/bath facilities, a haven in storms, and a place for someone during the day if they are not feeling well. What should I consider if I will be towing a trailer with a loaded weight of 3-5K? Our trips do involve 6-7% grades that are several miles or longer. My understanding is that a 6v92TA is likely to be a better choice than an 8v71? Cost is likely a factor. I'm guessing at this point I could not spend more than $15-20K for the bus itself, in good running condition ready to strip. Less, if the bus itself needs work before it is road-worthy. The charity itself cannot afford it, so the rig and all of its operating costs will come out of my pockets. As for my own skills: Driving-wise, I don't have any fears about driving a bus once I get some "parking-lot" time to get familiar. I've driven trucks almost as big in the past. Mechanically, I'm competent to do regular maintenance, but I'm not a true gear-head. I've dropped engines, stripped and re-assembled them, but you wouldn't want to be on a time-table. Interior, I feel pretty comfortable. I build furniture and such for our charity group, plus do all of my own in-home maintenance, carpentry, plumbing and electrical. Any advice, opinions, or pointers to info would be appreciated. | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 276 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.90.28.36 Rating: |
8v71 or 6v92 are both fine, if you bought a cross country bus,the back two bays could be for freshwater/blackwater tanks (etc)..that would leave the front 4 bays for dog hauling,all have aluminum floors & can be hosed out easily,interrior of the bus would be living quarters,think you could haul 12 dogs in comfort down there & sleeep 6 people in comfort up top.have no idea what 'gear' you would haul,but a bus will pull a couple thousand pounds if you don't get your tounge weight too high.if it's a monocoupe design,you need to have interior walls finished before travel,or if it's a framed coach like a prevost or an Eagle ,you could get by with walls stripped on the interior, | ||
| Michael Sheldon (Msheldon)
Registered Member Username: Msheldon Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 68.230.115.166 Rating: N/A |
Unless those cargo bays are accessible from the interior, no dogs down there. They're fine in the main cabin, so long as they're fenced off from the driver. Our gear is all period re-enactment gear. Large canvas tents, furniture, cooking gear (mostly cast-iron), fencing, etc. Big, heavy, and bulky. I currently fill a 15' long cargo area in a 104" wide toy hauler to a height of 4.5-5'. | ||
| Mark R. Obtinario (Cowlitzcoach)
Registered Member Username: Cowlitzcoach Post Number: 122 Registered: 4-2001 Posted From: 204.245.228.211 Rating: N/A |
Hey Michael, You have already made some very good decisions about any conversion platform you might choose. Since you are located in AZ and you have indicated you are familiar with long and steep grades, you definitely are going to want something with lots of H.P., particularly those that come along with a turbocharger--naturally aspirated diesel engines don't do nearly as well as turbocharged diesel engine when you get some elevation. You have also indicated you will be traveling goodly distances when you get out and go. This would indicate a need for a bus that will travel at highway speeds. You now have to decide how big a bus you want--two axles (under 40'), two axles with a tag/bogey axle (over 40'), or tandem rear axles (over 40'). Each size of bus have definite pros and cons with the obvious difference the more axles and tires the greater expense for maintenance and repairs. Also the longer the bus the harder it is to get into small spaces (a bus won't usually bend in the middle). If you want to tow a trailer as well, you are going to want even more H.P. Be aware, some buses are easily adapted to pulling trailers, others are not. When you say interior stripped, it depends on what you mean stripped. Seats and racks removed, no problem. Interior walls and floor not in place, it could be a big problem. Since you say the charity has no budget for buses, if you are wanting to go real low budget, school buses could be a very good choice for you. Crown, Gillig, Thomas, and Blue Bird made a lot of 35-40' school buses with power packages with which you can keep up with the 'hounds most of the time. Prices range in the $.5-5K neighborhood for good running buses. All of them are readily adaptable to trailer hithces, all of them are easily serviced, all of them use parts that are readily available almost everywhere, they are easy to drive, many of the high end school buses came with luggage comparments (some that went clear through under the bus), and they have fewer and simpler systems with which you will have to deal once you get going down the road. All school buses are higher off the ground and have a lower top height than highway coaches. They were designed and built to pick up kids all over the country so they can be operated on any road easily. Rarely will you ever run into overheight restrictions or overweight restrictions that will apply to a school bus. A nice paint job with interesting graphics and you won't have to worry about being classed in with hippies and the like (look at the Blue Bird Wanderlodge for example). For $10-15K you should be able to convert a high end Type 'D' 40' school bus into a very nice highway friendly conversion. Since you are in the land of no rust, don't even consider going to the rustbelt for a bus. If you really want a coach to convert TSI has a bunch of MCI-12's that came out of the 'hound fleet. Most have the 6V-92, a few have the 8V-92, and a very few have the Series 50 or 60. All have the updated radiators and cooling system. All of them have automatic transmissions. And since they have so many of them, if you have ready $$$ you can probably make a pretty good deal. Good luck. Mark O. | ||
| Jerry Liebler (Jerry_liebler)
Registered Member Username: Jerry_liebler Post Number: 233 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 67.140.172.145 Rating: N/A |
Michael, I have to disagree with some of the coments others have made about traveling with a 'stripped' interior. The inner wall and ceiling panels of any bus are non structural and it's fine to travel with them removed. I used my bus in exactly this condition to move from Oregon to Kentucky, making 3 1/2 round trips. In many the floor is structurally significant and should be intact. If you chose a highway bus it's likely the bays could hold all the gear. I'd stear you to the GM 4106 or 4107 or 4108 because they are my favorites. I'd be glad to talk this over on the phone, send me a private email with a number and I'll give you a call. Regards Jerry 4107 1120 | ||
| H3-40 (Ace)
Registered Member Username: Ace Post Number: 319 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 75.200.56.162 Rating: N/A |
I would have to disagree about not having dogs travel down below in the cargo bays. I have seen bays built especially for dogs and in one case it was built for a goat that blew up balloons! He belong to a clown that travelled around to kid shows and flea markets! Ace | ||
| sylverstone (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Registered Member Username: Sylverstone_pd4501864 Post Number: 202 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 216.173.223.253 Rating: N/A |
hi mike, hl sylverstone the traveller here. >I help run a charity that works at renaissance faires promoting adoption of retired racing greyhounds. i have a friend who does the same, based out of kentucky. >Currently, I use a 25' Toy Hauler as our "base of operations" and cargo hauler. (We have approx 3,000 lbs of gear). Problem is, I'm pushing the limits of my current truck, a 3/4 ton Avalanche, and there's NOTHING else out there that can tow 12K and have room for 5-6 greyhounds inside the vehicle. umm... that rig isn't even rated for close to that heavy. my daily driver is a dodge full sized van that's been tag axled, and i can tow 12k no problem. not sure how you're getting to 12k with only 3k worth of gear? a 25' toyhauler should weigh something like 6k by itself, add 3k to it and you're around 9k, not 12... you might want to figure out where the extra weight came from. if it were me, i would go find myself a 1 ton crew cab turbo diesel dually, and put a canopy and a walkthrough in it. gives you seating for 5 very comfortably, and assuming a bumper pull trailer, 6 dogs in the back with no real issues. i've also seen a 5th wheel stock trailer that the front was converted into an rv that was pretty slick. you could use a 35 footer and have enough room for living quarters, kennels, *and* a small car in the back. >and Another couple travels with us, but they have it easy, they just pile their dogs into their van and follow us. :-) seems like y'all are spending an awful lot of unnecessary money on fuel.. >I'm starting to look a lot more closely at purchasing a bus to convert, and towing a cargo-hauler behind it for our gear. Our friends and their dogs would also travel in the bus with us. >Some questions that came to mind: >Is a bus structurally safe to operate with the interior stripped? depends on the bus, but usually. >I will likely be doing the interior build myself, and know that it will take some time to do. However, I will have to sell my current trailer to afford fitting out a bus. My plan would be to leave a couple of the forward seats in it temporarily and fit some spaces for the dogs, then fit out bathroom/shower, kitchen next, then fill in everything else. It's not too big a deal not to have beds, etc for a while, since we often sleep in our huge tents when working at faires. > define huge? my marquee is 43x43 at the dags, and the whole thing, with the poles, the stakes (reworked vehicle axles) etc. weighs in at a bit over 500 lbs... and what kind of canvas? (sunforger and starfire can pack down wet, but they get really heavy fast) hammocks work really really well in buses that still have the package racks in them. >The RV has mostly been for kitchen/bath facilities, a haven in storms, and a place for someone during the day if they are not feeling well. okay, so you can get by with the same space as a 20 ft travel trailer if you have to. >What should I consider if I will be towing a trailer with a loaded weight of 3-5K? just about any bus won't feel that trailer to speak of. >Our trips do involve 6-7% grades that are several miles or longer. My understanding is that a 6v92TA is likely to be a better choice than an 8v71? >that would depend on the weight of your rig, but if i were you i would look for something a bit more modern. you need to start by figuring out if you need a bus, then figure out which one you like, then figure out powertrain. i'll be the first person to say don't buy a bus with an 8v71 in it, but then, i bought a scenicruiser a while ago that has one. you also might want to doublecheck weight capacities and height problems. pennsic (for instance) has a 10 ton weight limit bridge on the main road in. there was *no way* i could have stopped to avoid that bridge, and while it's very short, so my 55,000 lb at the time scenicruiser didn't hurt it, it could be a pretty major issue for you. >Cost is likely a factor. I'm guessing at this point I could not spend more than $15-20K for the bus itself, in good running condition ready to strip. Less, if the bus itself needs work before it is road-worthy. The charity itself cannot afford it, so the rig and all of its operating costs will come out of my pockets. i'd sell the avalanche and buy a real truck. *shrug* that said, you can pretty easily do a bus in that price range. off the top, you're going to want a highway bus. *not* a transit unless you want to do a lot of mods to it. not sure why the dogs in the bays would be a problem. you can ventilate and radiant heat a bay pretty easily, and i for one would prefer living quarters that did not have a scared abused dog in it (rescue runs, etc) for that matter, depending on the bus you *could* make the bays accssible from inside the bus. i know it would be a piece of cake with my scenicruiser. build the kennels into the outside walls of the bays, and put a flight of stairs down in the center, covered by a door when you aren't going up and down it. a toy hauler is a very very poor choice of a trailer for what you're currently doing, as you're putting way too much weight in the tail. i suspect it handles like a pig. 15x6x5=450 cubic feet of gear. not sure about other buses, but my cruiser has 345 cubic feet of bay space, and by yanking the factory ac and heater cores out i can probably up that by 50 or so easily. if you're going for a bus, i would see about the feasibility of keeping the dogs in a couple of the bays (be easy to turn 'em into a comfortable kennel) and keeping your heaviest items (canvas most likely, followed by cookware) in the lower rearmost bay so you don't mess up the handling too badly. the lighter you keep the bus, the better fuel mileage you'll get. you probably won't get better than 8 mpg. sorry if all this sounds negative, it's not meant to, just a lot of things to consider. -dd | ||
| Tim Hoskinson (Tdh37514151)
Registered Member Username: Tdh37514151 Post Number: 188 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 4.252.65.59 Rating: N/A |
Hey Ace I have seen the same set up with the goat. Not shure if it is the same clown but I have it on video tape from a antique tractor show in Marion Ohio some years ago. The guy kept his goat in the bay of his bus. Seems like you would get some smell. | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 277 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.227.114.63 Rating: N/A |
I think he thinks he would be abuseing the dogs if kept in the bays,LOTS of people make the kids rooms down there,nothing wrong with down there,& like I said, it can be hosed out easily. & you could cut holes where they could see out & cover the hole with expanded metal | ||
| Michael Sheldon (Msheldon)
Registered Member Username: Msheldon Post Number: 3 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 68.230.115.166 Rating: N/A |
Dogs in the bays are not an option, period. They're not cattle, they're my pets. Not to mention the extreme temperatures I deal with to and from events. | ||
| sylverstone (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Registered Member Username: Sylverstone_pd4501864 Post Number: 203 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 216.173.223.253 Rating: |
wow. your knowledge of busses (or lack of it) just became really obvious. look at the bays as "useable space" and quit thinking "cattle car" and you might actually see the light. -dd | ||
| Michael Sheldon (Msheldon)
Registered Member Username: Msheldon Post Number: 4 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 68.230.115.166 Rating: N/A |
>>I'm pushing the limits of my current truck, a 3/4 ton Avalanche, and there's NOTHING else out there that can tow 12K and have room for 5-6 greyhounds inside the vehicle. >umm... that rig isn't even rated for close to that heavy. Yes, it is, from the factory. 3/4 ton 2wd with 8.1L gas engine and 4.10 rear is rated for 12K. My current trailer is rated at 11.4K, and probably runs on the road just barely shy of 11K >my daily driver is a dodge full sized van that's been tag axled, and i can tow 12k no problem. That's nice, but Dodge doesn't make those anymore. Their current vans are only rated to 5K. Ford and Chevy max at 10K >not sure how you're getting to 12k with only 3k worth of gear? TH with all fluids (all the sites we go to are dry) comes in just shy of 8K, the gear pushes it to 11K. Never said my load was 12K, there's just no way I'd pull 11K with anything rated at less. >if it were me, i would go find myself a 1 ton crew cab turbo diesel dually, and put a canopy and a walkthrough in it. gives you seating for 5 very comfortably, and assuming a bumper pull trailer, 6 dogs in the back with no real issues. Sure, 6 dogs will fit, but in the AZ heat, they'd be pot roast by the time we got anywhere. You can't get any significant air through a pass-through/walk through. I'd love to get a 3500 series diesel, but nobody's been able to tell me a good way to provide A/C in the back. 'course a new 3500 would cost me as much as a decent bus anyway. > define huge? my marquee is 43x43 at the dags, and the whole thing, with the poles, the stakes (reworked vehicle axles) etc. weighs in at a bit over 500 lbs... and what kind of canvas? (sunforger and starfire can pack down wet, but they get really heavy fast) Heh, by SCA standards, not that big, one 16x20 and one 10x10 plus two flys for the large one, and one fly for the small. All are heavy canvas, I'd guess the total canvas weight at around 350, plus poles. Just huge by "normal people" standards. >i'd sell the avalanche and buy a real truck. See above >not sure why the dogs in the bays would be a problem. you can ventilate and radiant heat a bay pretty easily, and i for one would prefer living quarters that did not have a scared abused dog in it (rescue runs, etc) #1 Heating is not a problem, cooling is. #2 "scared, abused" you've been reading too much propaganda. 95%+ of the retired greys I deal with are better adjusted than anything you'll get from a regular breeder/pet store. Plus, they're well accustomed to traveling. During their race career, they get shuttled to the track and back a couple times a week, often for some decent distances. #3 These aren't just any dogs, they're *MY* greys. A couple have been with me a while now, and are getting on in age. Regardless, they go everywhere with us. >a toy hauler is a very very poor choice of a trailer for what you're currently doing, as you're putting way too much weight in the tail. i suspect it handles like a pig. Says you. It's worked quite well for three years, and my truck has no problem with it. I never drop below 50mph unless the grade is steeper than 6%. The truck allows for over 1,800lbs CCC and the tongue weight runs 1,300-1,400. I am putting too much weight on the tail (Cap and dogs add 500), but only by a small margin, and the Timbrens have dealt with that pretty well. >15x6x5=450 cubic feet of gear. >not sure about other buses, but my cruiser has 345 cubic feet of bay space, and by yanking the factory ac and heater cores out i can probably up that by 50 or so easily. Yeah, I'm thinking that using a small cargo trailer, like a 6x10, and splitting the load would work. The small cargo trailers are nice because I can get them all the way into our site, where a bus or TH cannot, or is not allowed to go. Part of my current load is one of those cheap 2K rated 4'x8' Harbor Freight trailers that we use for just for "the last mile". (Winch it out of the TH, and take into the site either on a hand dolly, or behind a friend's Astro Van). No way I'd tow that thing on the highway though. >you probably won't get better than 8 mpg. Slightly beats the 6-7mpg I'm getting now. >i bought a scenicruiser a while ago I can see why you would overlook the 8v71, those things are just cool. | ||
| Michael Sheldon (Msheldon)
Registered Member Username: Msheldon Post Number: 5 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 68.230.115.166 Rating: N/A |
>wow. your knowledge of busses (or lack of it) just became really obvious. >look at the bays as "useable space" and quit thinking "cattle car" and you might actually see the light. I'm well aware of the "useable space". I just don't consider it appropriate. My opinion. | ||
| R.J.(Bob) Evans (Bobofthenorth)
Registered Member Username: Bobofthenorth Post Number: 110 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 142.165.179.246 Rating: |
It always amuses me when people come professing to be looking for advice but appearing to just want to argue. | ||
| Jim Stewart (H3jim)
Registered Member Username: H3jim Post Number: 276 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 68.6.185.174 Rating: |
Mike Kadletz over at the other board made and sold a bus with carpeted bays underneath, windows in the side doors, air conditioned, TV, Cd and games. He put in a hatch so it can be accessed from the inside. The guy who bought it put his kids down there, they absolutely love it, its good for everyone. Having said that, I have had dogs / my friends, and as long as it wasn't too many, I would see no reason not to have them in the main space. But the bays are kind of cool too, if done right. I am converting an H3 Prevost, and have been working on it for almost 3 years. I too have done a lot of electrical, plumbing, tile work over the years, and I have to say is still a huge amount of work, planning, buying materials. Its a second job you will have for years if you take this on. It is fun, but it can consume a lot of time as well, especially to do it well. I'm not sure if a partially done, or finished coach that you would remodel might not be an option, get you started much faster than buying a seated coach. There are lots around these days, and I bet you could get a bargain if you looked for a while. good luck, and keep us posted how you do. | ||
| Tim Hoskinson (Tdh37514151)
Registered Member Username: Tdh37514151 Post Number: 189 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 4.224.234.108 Rating: N/A |
Asking questions on here can sometimes be a little rough on a guy can't it Michael. It sounds to me like you really care about what you do. Nothing wrong with that we could use some more of that in this country. Dogs up with you tents and other things down in the bays. Think about the places you go what size bus would get in and out with out a problem. Then consider distance traveled and how fas you need to get there? That might tell you how big of engine you need. Also consider fuel cost and the mileage. How important is fuel mileage to you? That can be a consideration as to going with an automatic transmission or standard. These are just some things that came to mind as I read your post hope it helps. Best of luck . Tim | ||
| sylverstone (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Registered Member Username: Sylverstone_pd4501864 Post Number: 204 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 216.173.223.253 Rating: N/A |
>Sure, 6 dogs will fit, but in the AZ heat, they'd be pot roast by the time we got anywhere. You can't get any significant air through a pass-through/walk through. I'd love to get a 3500 series diesel, but nobody's been able to tell me a good way to provide A/C in the back. 'course a new 3500 would cost me as much as a decent bus anyway. :-) >#1 Heating is not a problem, cooling is. a bus will have the same problem, only worse because it has more surface area to catch heat, than a truck does. remote ac and air systems are easy. something like a proheat only you don't need it nearly that spiffy. in a truck, the first thing i would do is put a bedliner in it, sprayfoaming it in as you go. then sprayfoam your canopy (inch thick is fine, 2 is better) take out the entire back window of the truck and the front of the canopy, put a boot in. then you just need to move air from the back to the front. the easy way is the ceiling. this is an interior shot of my van: http://www.sylverstone.com/sca/images/war_wagon/war-wagon-003-rear_inside-01.jpg the bulge all along the center of the ceiling is the ductwork for the heat/ac system, all the wiring for the entertainment systems, lighting, etc. it uses a small squirrelcage at the front (with a heater core and a cold plate in the output ) to push air to the back that's temp adjustable truthfully in your case you could just punch a pair of air vents into the floor in the back of the bed by the taillights. use a pair of computer fan wire guards to keep things from falling out the holes, and a pvc right angle to cause movement of the rig to pull air out. this will constantly pull cold air back from the cab, where the rigs ac is cooling or heating incoming air. solves the wet dog problem nicely too. or you could use an inverter and a house ac unit. *shrug* >#2 "scared, abused" you've been reading too much propaganda. 95%+ of the retired greys I deal with are better adjusted than anything you'll get from a regular breeder/pet store. Plus, they're well accustomed to traveling. During their race career, they get shuttled to the track and back a couple times a week, often for some decent distances. ah. my friend does a lot of rescue runs which tend to deal with dogs of a different sort. >#3 These aren't just any dogs, they're *MY* greys. A couple have been with me a while now, and are getting on in age. Regardless, they go everywhere with us. right. couple dog beds in the back and let 'em run loose. something between the console and your chair to keep 'em out of the controls if one panics for some reason. >Yeah, I'm thinking that using a small cargo trailer, like a 6x10, and splitting the load would work. The small cargo trailers are nice because I can get them all the way into our site, where a bus or TH cannot, or is not allowed to go. Part of my current load is one of those cheap 2K rated 4'x8' Harbor Freight trailers that we use for just for "the last mile". (Winch it out of the TH, and take into the site either on a hand dolly, or behind a friend's Astro Van). No way I'd tow that thing on the highway though. :-) *snicker* yeah. i don't blame you a lot of states have a 65 ft length limit, so you might want to keep that in mind when shopping for a trailer. that and behind a bus there's no reason not to have one tall enough to stand up in. -dd | ||
| sylverstone (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Registered Member Username: Sylverstone_pd4501864 Post Number: 205 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 216.173.223.253 Rating: N/A |
>I'm well aware of the "useable space". I just don't consider it appropriate. My opinion. i'm thinking about doing a sunken living room / hot tub in mine. -dd | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 102 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 72.80.31.224 Rating: N/A |
Arent the greyhounds usually on the sides of the buses? I think the "promoting retired greyhounds" and the 5-6 dogs got everyone thinking about seperating the dogs from the living quarters (i know i was) How about that red stretched Scenicruiser for a rig? Plenty of bays plus the trailor. You gotta get the "who let the dogs out" on the PA system as you pull in. Ok where is John on the comedy? | ||
| Michael Sheldon (Msheldon)
Registered Member Username: Msheldon Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 68.230.115.166 Rating: N/A |
>Think about the places you go what size bus would get in and out with out a problem. Usually not a problem. The events are usually in city parks and such. It's city surface streets, but just enough room to maneuver large rigs. (Plenty of other folks running Class As and such, plus my current rig, while "hinged" at the hitch runs over 45' long and 102" wide. >Then consider distance traveled and how fas you need to get there? That might tell you how big of engine you need. Our events at this point, except for a couple that are local, are in the 400-500 mile one-way range. Currently 6-8 hours drive. A lot is on flats, but every run has at least one 6% grade, sometimes for a decent distance. Speed limits run up to 75mph, but I don't usually feel obligated to run it all the way up there. As long as I can maintain a comfortable 65 on flats and reasonable hills, and not drop too far on the steep grades, I will be pretty happy. >Also consider fuel cost and the mileage. How important is fuel mileage to you? That can be a consideration as to going with an automatic transmission or standard. Well, consider that currently I'm getting 6-7mpg towing those same runs. I generally prefer standards, but it's not a deal-breaker. >i'm thinking about doing a sunken living room / hot tub in mine. Now you're talking! After an 8 hour drive, then 3-4 hours of schlepping gear and setting up an encampment, soaking in a hot tub would be outstanding. >couple dog beds in the back and let 'em run loose. Hehe, running loose is a bit of a stretch. The moment mine get in the truck, they find something soft to lie down on, and they collapse. In an 8-hour run, the only time they get up is for rest stops (1-2 per trip) and once or twice one will get up to turn around to lie on their other side. Greyhounds are about as lazy a creature as you will ever find. Always seemed a strange choice for a bus mascot to me >It always amuses me when people come professing to be looking for advice but appearing to just want to argue. Didn't come to argue, and I only disagree on one point that is not central to the overall discussion. But hey, if it keeps you amused, well, have fun with yourself. | ||
| David Ljung Madison (Daveola)
Registered Member Username: Daveola Post Number: 92 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 199.46.31.34 Rating: N/A |
Hi Michael. Welcome to the board. Sorry about some of the responses you've received. It seems that this board has: 1) Lots of useful information 2) Lots of people very attached to their solutions, regardless of whether they work for *you*. It was painful for me to read you having to post over and over that you wanted the dogs to travel in the bus (as you did in your *first* post) and have people berate you for this. As if you didn't have a right to decide who your passengers are or how you would use your bus. But what really shocked me was this post regarding the dogs: "wow. your knowledge of busses (or lack of it) just became really obvious." No, that became obvious when he posted the subject proclaiming himself as a beginner. Maybe it's just me, but that statement seems like an attack, and I can't imagine why we would want to attack new people coming to the board looking for knowledge. And then: "It always amuses me when people come professing to be looking for advice but appearing to just want to argue." If a poster comes to the board and is forced to keep reiterating their need to keep dogs in a bus instead of a cargo bay, then I'd say it's the board members that are arguing, not the poster. I see this "do it our way" approach thrust on every single newbie by many of the board's otherwise quite knowledgeable members. Don't others think we could be a much more powerful community if we were open-minded to people taking a slightly different route? I mean, we're busnuts, so we're all off the beaten path a bit, aren't we? Anyways - directly on topic.. You should be able to use a stripped bus with no problem. You should be able to afford a coach (with luggage bays) that's in reasonable shape for $15k. Jim had a really good point that the amount of work is rather huge. Doing the interior later is a great idea, but you might want to preplan whatever infrastructure you will need on the bus before you get rid of your current rig, it takes good time to setup electrical, heat, A/C, etc.. Sounds like you've got yourself into a fun project, I know I'm loving it. Btw, if you or anyone is considering converting a luggage bay into a lower room for *whatever* reason, take a look at the bus frame under the floor. I've seen downstairs rooms and they're pretty cool, but on an MCI, for example, there's only enough room for a hatch that's about a foot wide. No stairs. Not unless you frame a new metal structure to replace the struts. Would be cool though - if I had extra cargo on my bus I would've done it myself. | ||
| Michael Sheldon (Msheldon)
Registered Member Username: Msheldon Post Number: 7 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 68.230.115.166 Rating: N/A |
>Jim had a really good point that the amount of work is rather huge. Doing the interior later is a great idea, but you might want to preplan whatever infrastructure you will need on the bus before you get rid of your current rig, it takes good time to setup electrical, heat, A/C, etc.. Fortunately, I have no illusions about how much work it will be. Equally fortunate, I took some formal training as a CAD draftsman a few years back, so I know how to draw up plans. These plans I'd definitely want to draw up properly and bind into a book for reference. I don't plan on getting rid of the current rig right away. I should be able to afford the bus itself without selling my trailer. I'll just need to sell the trailer to finance the buildout. I'm also not necessarily looking to buy a bus in the immediate future. I'm thinking possibly in 6-12 months. I started looking at it several months ago, after Ford discontinued their 3/4 ton SUV, Chevy discontinued the 3/4 Avalanche, and then stopped putting the 8.1L in the 3/4 ton Suburban. My Av is currently doing the job pretty well, but with running it near the limit, I know its not going to last forever, and with nothing left in that class to replace it, I started looking in other directions. I looked at the possibility of outfitting a used big rig for travel, and towing a large 5th wheel behind it, but that's a much more expensive option than refitting a used bus. Those big 5th wheel toy haulers are quite expensive. The longevity of a 5th wheel trailer doesn't seem as good as a bus conversion either. The other advantage of converting a bus is that I can spread the cost over a couple years, rather than having to pony everything up front. My needs at the moment are pretty spartan, but I'm sure as I put on a few more years I'll appreciate a bit more comfort. On a slightly different topic, want to hear something amusing? One of my best friends is in charge of R&D for Fender Guitar's amplifier division. We were talking about those nice big cargo bays, and wondered... If we put a bunch of HUGE bass speakers in there backed by a few dozen really big capacitors to drive them, then put a port through the side of the cargo bay... Would we then have enough "thump" to break every window in the next car that pulled alongside us with the massive stereo blasting? I'm thinking the last bit of the 1812 Overture would do the job very nicely. | ||
| sylverstone (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Registered Member Username: Sylverstone_pd4501864 Post Number: 207 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 216.173.223.253 Rating: N/A |
shouldn't be a problem, use a folded horn and as much power as you can throw at it. 200 db @ 1w/1m should be doable with the right horn design and something really efficient ont he driver end of things. high frequencies may work better though. -dd | ||
| Michael Sheldon (Msheldon)
Registered Member Username: Msheldon Post Number: 8 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 68.230.115.166 Rating: N/A |
>high frequencies may work better though. True, but there's just something about being able to out-thump the thumpers. Last year, my friend and I set up the audio in a haunted house. The area we were working in was a hallway built from framed up pieces of 4x8 1/2" plywood. With a standard subwoofer and a couple of Bose 101s, and the wood-sheathed hallway acting as a very large speaker cabinet, a 60watt amp at 1/2 volume reproduced a thunderclap so nicely that standing in the hall you felt like you got punched in the chest. I was thinking if you upped the power by a couple hundred, and use those nice chambers under the bus.... 'course it would also be funny if you could remote-open the cargo doors to reveal a huge wall of speakers just before shaking their teeth out. | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1071 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.181.163.170 Rating: N/A |
Michael - Would something like this work for you? 260044724325 Item listed on eBay. . . Just a thought, however feeble before breakfast. | ||
| Michael Sheldon (Msheldon)
Registered Member Username: Msheldon Post Number: 9 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 68.230.115.166 Rating: N/A |
I've seen a couple of those. My bet is that that type of rig would work fine, especially with towing a cargo trailer behind it. That particular one is a bit tight on space though. That can't be more than a 20' box. I've seen one with a 25' box plus a cab sleeper. If I needed to tow a LOT of weight, no doubt that would be a great choice. Not too fond of that "shower on the toilet" thing. My wife already isn't all that fond of the small shower stall in the TH, I think she'd slap me upside the head if I showed her one of those. | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1072 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.181.163.170 Rating: N/A |
There were several more listed, various lengths. Found in eBay Motors, under RVs, under Class A. FWIW. . . | ||
| Michael Sheldon (Msheldon)
Registered Member Username: Msheldon Post Number: 10 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 204.74.80.3 Rating: N/A |
Yeah, I like this one: 110045995322 He's even local to me. Too bad that thing is *way* out of my budget. That's one of the attractions of converting a bus for me. I can spread the cost out over a couple years, plus save some money by doing a large chunk of the interior work myself. | ||
| David Ljung Madison (Daveola)
Registered Member Username: Daveola Post Number: 95 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 63.204.157.4 Rating: N/A |
You know, you could just buy a $500 school bus and then install this in it: ebay 220040057800 Heh. But you better get good ear protection for you and your dogs. :-) | ||
| Michael Sheldon (Msheldon)
Registered Member Username: Msheldon Post Number: 11 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 68.230.115.166 Rating: N/A |
Looks to be in nice condition, but with the long high-speed highway runs, a transit bus would likely require too much drive train modification for me. | ||
| Chris In Billings, MT (Delzy_rstii_03)
Registered Member Username: Delzy_rstii_03 Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 69.144.155.158 Rating: N/A |
I've read about $3k in gear and labor and it'll run out at 77 mph. But I'm sure there are other RTS owners that have personal experience. Anyway, thanks for looking. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 16 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 4.245.230.52 Rating: N/A |
I would avoid any GM that has a transverse engine. These fine coaches do not have the structural ability to safely carry a tongue load of 1500 to 3000 lbs. A trailer will put 15% of its total weight on the tongue to track safely. Any T drive coach with a frame or a converted skoolie like a Wanderlodge is safer choice. FAST FRED | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 282 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.90.24.50 Rating: N/A |
none of this is possible, two couples & 12 dogs ,in a 300 square foot bus | ||
| Michael Sheldon (Msheldon)
Registered Member Username: Msheldon Post Number: 12 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 204.74.80.3 Rating: N/A |
>none of this is possible, two couples & 12 dogs ,in a 300 square foot bus I'm curious as to why you think so? Remember that we don't spend a whole lot of time in the RV itself. It's transportation, facilities and the occasional crash pad. We're only in it in the evening ,if even then, and in this proposed case, during transport. During the day, we're working on-site, with the dogs either on lead or in a large fenced pen. We've quite successfully (and comfortably) used my current Toy Hauler for four people and 12 dogs on site. (TH's are great because they have lots of open floor space) Granted, I dropped the ramp and set up the ramp room, but that's still only 276 square feet total (212 inside the box, plus 64 for the 8x8 ramp room). The actual space the dogs were in is approx 115 sqft. The advantage to doing buildout myself is that I can optimise it for my purposes. One example: in a TH, the main bed is approx 3 feet off the floor when lowered. This allows the dogs to sleep underneath it. In a bus buildout, it would be easy enough for me to build the main bed raised just for that purpose. It only takes roughly 80 square feet for ten dogs with them all lying down (which takes the most space). This is based on my five hounds quite happily travelling in the 4x8 cargo area of my Avalanche for 6-8 hours/day. (64sq ft for ten hounds plus some additional on the assumption that the space might not be contiguous.) | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 285 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.90.27.9 Rating: N/A |
last time I heard of anything like that,there was a kid playing a banjo & drooling | ||
| Michael Sheldon (Msheldon)
Registered Member Username: Msheldon Post Number: 13 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 204.74.80.3 Rating: N/A |
OK, on the one hand, you suggested I put them in the cargo bays, (approx 8'x 5'?) now you're saying that 8'x15' isn't enough space. Which is it? | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 289 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.90.30.36 Rating: N/A |
still the same...too many bodies upstairs | ||
| David Ljung Madison (Daveola)
Registered Member Username: Daveola Post Number: 96 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 63.204.157.4 Rating: N/A |
<sarcasm> Wow. My bus used to carry 50 people. Too bad it can't carry 4 people and 12 dogs. I guess Mike will have to go back to the 25' toy hauler and his friend's van, now that he sees that a 40' bus with more area won't fit them. A shame. </sarcasm> | ||
| Michael Sheldon (Msheldon)
Registered Member Username: Msheldon Post Number: 14 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 68.230.115.166 Rating: N/A |
>still the same...too many bodies upstairs Yeah, OK. I guess having over 3X the space during transit and about 25% more space on site would definitely be a bad thing. Too bad about your math skills. | ||
| Jim & Linda Callaghan (Jimc)
Registered Member Username: Jimc Post Number: 22 Registered: 2-2004 Posted From: 66.175.206.189 Rating: N/A |
Michael, I don't see any reason why you couldn't use the back end of the coach for a dog house by lining up the kennels along the outside walls, make the bathroom walk through like 90% of the conversions, and use the kitchen table for a bunk when needed, and the couch a fold down when needed, the sleeping would be tight for four adults, but it would work. That would open the bays for your tents, or other equipment, add a small trailor for the other items needed. The plus side would be a bathroom and kitchen all the time you were not sleeping. DO IT YOUR WAY! JimC 4106 Wisconsin | ||
| John Ferguson (Jarlaxle)
Registered Member Username: Jarlaxle Post Number: 29 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.174.109.82 Rating: N/A |
"Problem is, I'm pushing the limits of my current truck, a 3/4 ton Avalanche, and there's NOTHING else out there that can tow 12K and have room for 5-6 greyhounds inside the vehicle." Actually, I can name 2 vehicles off the top of my head that fit the bill: Ford Excursion, Ford E-350. The Ex is rated for 12,500lbs with the tow package & the diesel or V-10 (get the pre-2004 PowerStroke unless you like 10MPG empty & 6 loaded), the E-350 will also tow 12,500lbs with the PSD (again, you want a 2003 or older...the 6.0 is a total catastrophe). The V-10 will pull it, but again, figure about 10MPG. That's theory. In reality, an Excursion with the 275HP 7.3 PowerStroke (2001-early 2003...late 03's will have the 6.0--avoid at all costs) will laugh at a 6-ton load. My boss has ~55,000 hard miles on his 2003 (4x4 XLT, last of the 7.3 diesels) & it hasn't had any trouble towing some truly heavy loads (the record was close to 16K). It will still run 65MPH easily with a trailer. Mileage is better than a 3/4-ton Avalanche, getting 18-20 empty & 11-14 with a trailer. The only changes are a transmission cooler, trans temp gauge, & Rancho RS9000X adjustable shocks. Compared to an Avalanche, the Ex has more interior space, VASTLY more pulling power, uses less fuel (roughly half, compared to an 8100 Vortec), & should be more stable, with a long wheelbase & being essentially a rebodied F-250HD. Only downside: people realize how good diesel Excursions are, and they aren't cheap. I have to say you might be served pretty well by a school bus, especially considering your budgetary restrictions & need to tow a substantial trailer. Remember: a long-nose is a class 7 truck with a bus body...any class 7 will laugh at a heavy trailer. Bonus: you can usually find one with a standard shift, and ANY heavy truck shop can service it. I'm VERY happy with my converted Thomas-bodied Ford B-700. One thing: stay away from Carpenter bodies...some had serious structural problems in the roofs. | ||
| Michael Sheldon (Msheldon)
Registered Member Username: Msheldon Post Number: 18 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 68.230.115.166 Rating: N/A |
The Excursion's nice enough but: It's not made anymore. I'm not fond of buying used light trucks, did it once before, got burned HARD. Too many people driving them hard and not maintaining them. And the cost of a used Excursion with the PSD 7.3 is as much as a used bus. And I'm not going to be towing 6 tons with the bus, 2 tons, tops. Probably closer to 1-1.5 tons figuring that a good amount of gear can go in the bays instead of the trailer. Which is one of the reasons I'm not sold on the idea of a school bus or transit bus. No cargo bays. Not only no room for gear, but it would make it a lot more challenging to fit for water tanks, generator, etc. Granted, having a real frame is nice. | ||
| John Ferguson (Jarlaxle)
Registered Member Username: Jarlaxle Post Number: 30 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.174.106.107 Rating: N/A |
There are plenty of well-kept Excursions out there, to say nothing of the many E-350 vans. My friend's father loves his diesel 1996 Club Wagon--stone-reliable with over 400,000 miles on this ex-airport shuttle, and he tows his Airstream Argosy with it. It's not that hard to get a good one. I've bought several used trucks, & bad ones aren't hard to spot. It's a heck of a lot easier (to say nothing of orders of magnitude more expensive) to get burned on a used bus than a used Ex. Selling the Avalanche should get you most of the way to the purchase price of an Excursion. Some school buses were built with storage bays--Thomas & Blue Bird made them, I think Ward & Wayne did also. It takes some planning, but getting everything into a school bus can certainly be done--I have holding tanks, batteries, a large, heavy APU setup, & living space. | ||
| Michael Sheldon (Msheldon)
Registered Member Username: Msheldon Post Number: 20 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 68.230.115.166 Rating: N/A |
>to say nothing of the many E-350 vans You would be *shocked* at how low the tow rating is for full-sized vans. | ||
| John Ferguson (Jarlaxle)
Registered Member Username: Jarlaxle Post Number: 31 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.174.106.168 Rating: N/A |
An E-350 PSD equipped properly (diesel, 4.10 gears, tow package) is good for 12,500lbs. Max gross weight is, IIRC, 22,000lbs--plenty for a diesel van (7500-8000lbs) & a 5-ton trailer. They aren't as good a tow vehicle as a pickup or Excursion (no standard shift, de-rated engine, somewhat limited gearing options), but they're hardly BAD, provided you don't get the 15-passenger extended-body van. Yes, the lighter-duty vans are pretty pathetic. | ||
| Michael Sheldon (Msheldon)
Registered Member Username: Msheldon Post Number: 22 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 68.230.115.166 Rating: N/A |
I'm not talking about the light-duty vans. According to Ford, the E350 PSD tops out at 10K http://www.fordvehicles.com/assets/pdf/towing/07RVe-series9-18.pdf | ||
| John Ferguson (Jarlaxle)
Registered Member Username: Jarlaxle Post Number: 32 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.174.103.49 Rating: N/A |
According to the manual, I seem to recall a 1996 E-350 with the big gas 460 or the PSD, 4.10 gears, & the class IV hitch being good for 12,500. His handles the Argosey without a problem, and hauled a Bobcat (~9000lbs) on a flatdeck with no drama. | ||
| Tim McWhorter (Theredwriter)
Registered Member Username: Theredwriter Post Number: 61 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 70.5.239.136 Rating: N/A |
Hi Michael, Wow...you've gotten some rather 'interesting' responses to your initial post. I'm sorry that some of them have been so obstinate and irrational in their posts. Here's my two cents worth. If you want a 40' bus, get it! They're awesome! I love mine. If I can haul around 4 kids, my golden retriever, my wife, myself and all of the stuff we want to haul around for a year along with towing my Chevy Trailblazer with six bikes on it...YOU CAN CERTAINLY DO WHAT YOU ARE PROPOSING!!! Have fun! | ||
| Michael Sheldon (Msheldon)
Registered Member Username: Msheldon Post Number: 23 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 68.230.115.166 Rating: N/A |
The oldest stats I could find were 1999, with the 7.3TD, and the rating was the same, 10K. I highly doubt the '96 was rated any higher. http://www.trailerlife.com/downloads/99towingguide.pdf The highest the Excursion was rated was 11K. Probably because its excessive dry weight drained too much off the chassis capability. http://www.trailerlife.com/downloads/02towingguide.pdf Neither one are rated to tow my current trailer's GVWR of 11.4K If I wanted a borderline vehicle, I'd keep the one I have. At least my current vehicle *is* rated to 12K, and thus is on the right side of the line. Enough said on this subject. I've spent nearly a year working out options, and I'm getting a little tired of folks trying to convince me NOT to do a conversion. It's bloody weird. I've never been on *any* other vehicle board where someone tried to convince a new poster to do something else unless it would not work at all. | ||
| John Ferguson (Jarlaxle)
Registered Member Username: Jarlaxle Post Number: 33 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.174.91.72 Rating: N/A |
Except an Excursion isn't borderline. It will tow 15,000lbs with no drama. | ||
| Michael Sheldon (Msheldon)
Registered Member Username: Msheldon Post Number: 24 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 68.230.115.166 Rating: N/A |
Wow, you don't give up. Tell ya what, you put 15K behind it, and if you get in an accident, you explain to the court why it was OK for you to exceed the factory limits for the vehicle. There have been folks who have lost *everything* in civil court cases because they were exceeding GCVWR and has the misfortune to be in a serious accident, even though they didn't cause it. I'd rather not be one of them. | ||
| sylverstone (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Registered Member Username: Sylverstone_pd4501864 Post Number: 214 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 216.173.223.253 Rating: N/A |
hey michael, look. sorry. okay? relax. i know it seems like we're all trying to talk you out of this, but we aren't. most of us are just trying to make sure you know what you're getting into, and don't end up with a conversion that never does what you want. most of us *are* trying to solve your problem, the solution may or may not be a bus, but it's not personal. we're just kicking out ideas. there's a member of this board who had his conversion break down nowhere near home that would probably sell it to you for cheap. it doesn't have very many problems, and they're known issues. i'm building a scenicruiser to do almost exactly what you're doing. with the exception that i'm hauling 6-8 people, not dogs, and about half my cargo is armor and the other half is commercial grade grills, fryers and the like. i.e. *very heavy*. i chose the scenicruiser because it's the sexiest bus ever built, and i can tig, mig, plasma cut and engineer pretty well. to solve my issues with the rig, i'm going to build big boxes for my bays on slides so i can load over 3 sides, then slide them into the bus, to make loading and unloading easier. the kitchen is getting towed. my bays are really big, so i'm probably going to park a car in the rear one. the hitch is going to have to be totally custom, since without a tuff tow you don't want more than 1000 lbs of tounge weight hooked to the engine cradle, because it all hangs from the roof on a scenic. of course, i'm shooting for as light as i can get with the trailer, and it's probably going to be nothing more than a 14' box that unfolds into a 14x14 kitchen, to put under my pavilion, so i don't have to set up all the time. call it 7k, absolute max, with luck more like 5. i'm also doing a series 60 and a 10 speed eaton autoshift, because i do over 30,000 miles a year, and the fuel mileage curve works like this: -=- lukes and back is about 6,000 miles. my cruiser gets 6. lets assume diesel is 2.50 / gal. so: 6,000/06 = 1000 * 2.50 = $2500.00 6,000/07 = 0857 * 2.50 = $2143.00 6,000/08 = 0750 * 2.50 = $1875.00 6,000/09 = 0666 * 2.50 = $1667.00 6,000/10 = 0600 * 2.50 = $1500.00 6,000/11 = 0545 * 2.50 = $1363.00 6,000/12 = 0500 * 2.50 = $1250.00 6,000/13 = 0462 * 2.50 = $1154.00 6,000/14 = 0428 * 2.50 = $1071.00 6,000/15 = 0400 * 2.50 = $1000.00 -=- i figure i'll save a thousand bucks every time i go to lukes, or 5k a year, by getting my mileage over 10. the mercedes engine has caught my attention as well, still researching. your court argument is useless, because a lot of buses are not rated to tow *anything*, so if this is important to you, you need to find out which buses are, and go from there. i know some were built to tow, mostly in canada i think. (other people know more than i about this) a scenicruiser will do what you want without a trailer. (or with) an mci anything will do what you want, with a small trailer. any class 7 based school bus will do what you want with a big trailer. some of these are really nice. you should see rons. i really thought these were cool http://www.nwbus.com/products/product_cat.pl?category=Trolley_Buses was thinking about picking up two. one to drive, the other to convert to a trailer for it, because i could park it anywhere on site and nobody would say a word once i was done painting it to look period. i have a buddy that has a slightly bigger one of these: http://www.nwbus.com/products/product_view.pl?item_view=S28203 that he tows a 35 ft bumper hitch rv trailer with, and it has no problems. but it's a diesel too. the sky is the limit here. the first thing is to find out what doesn't work. how about we start with basics. what bus do you like the look of? is *most* of where you drive flat? or is it all uphill / downhill? (a single 17 mile 8% grade isn't an issue unless you want to go up it at 65) can you keep your trailer under 5k, or is it going to bloat out to more like 10, once you have your emergency shelter / oh-my-god-the-weather-sucks shelter in the bus? how much can you afford to spend immediately? how much do you want to spend, max? do you have strong backs to unload bays/trailers, or do we need to take that into consideration? whats the tow length limit where you live? 8v-71's are known for getting you home with a hole the size of your fist in the block, broken connecting rods, broken crankshafts and all sorts of things that would be a total showstopper on anything else. you can use one. *mine* smokes a lot, and i think it's shot, but it still runs, and i would have absolutely no qualms at all about firing it up right now, and driving it 10,000 miles. a lot of this is miscommunication based on not knowing what you're really after. it's like the dogs in the bays thing. none of us were thinking "haul 'em like chickens" since we all know about a very cozy goat condo in a bay. you can fit cars in mine. *shrug* e mail doesn't convey things as well as it could. -dd edit: *most* of us took your statement of "there's NOTHING else out there that can tow 12K and have room for 5-6 greyhounds inside the vehicle." as a challenge to find one. you didn't clarify about what you didn't want. there's plenty of rigs that will. (Message edited by sylverstone_pd4501864 on October 29, 2006) | ||
| Michael Sheldon (Msheldon)
Registered Member Username: Msheldon Post Number: 26 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 68.230.115.166 Rating: N/A |
OK, lets's get back to the basics: Things I absolutely need that I have currently: Bath with shower Kitchen 100Gal fresh water and appropriate waste tanks Ability to haul approx 3K of gear. Crash space during an event if things get really nasty or if somone gets sick. Things a bus would gain me: Ability to haul more people/hounds with same or slighly better fuel mileage as my current rig (approx 6mpg average). This would mean *they* don't have to drive, which means they can share my fuel costs. Also makes long drives more enjoyable. Enough living space for all those people. Yes, it would be a little crowded, but we don't spend much time in the rig itself. It would mean instead of sleeping in the tents Sunday night, we could do a full tear-down and still have a place to sleep so we can pull out Monday morning fresh. Currently, there is only living space in my trailer if it is completely *unloaded*. Thus, currently, we have to leave them up until Monday morning. If done right, better life-expectancy than my TH. Most heavy gear would go in the bays. Some exceptionally bulky stuff. would go in a small trailer. At a max of 3K total load on those trailers, tongue weight would be 300-450 pounds, not too much. And given the geometry of a bus being the tow vehicle, you could easily keep it at the lower end. (Sway is a factor of trailer length vs. tow vehicle length vs weight. Think of it as the "tail wagging the dog". Most bad sway comes into place when the trailer length is high compared to the TV, and the trailer weight is high compared to the TV. Putting more weight on the tongue is a means of putting weight on the TV, thus stabilizing it. Longer TVs have much less sway problem, as do shorter trailers. I can't think of a rig LESS likely to sway than a 10' trailer on a 40' Tow Vehicle.) >a scenicruiser will do what you want without a trailer. (or with) Man, I'd LOVE to have one of these, there's nothing cooler on the road IMO. But frankly I'm more than a little nervous about taking on a 50 year old vehicle. >what bus do you like the look of? See above. However, looks aren't a real factor here. The coaches with their big cargo bays are a definite advantage though. Reliability is a factor. >is *most* of where you drive flat? or is it all uphill / downhill? (a single 17 mile 8% grade isn't an issue unless you want to go up it at 65) It's mixed. Almost all our trips have large runs in the flats, then long sections of mountain runs with multiple 10-20 mile 6%+ grades. I don't mind dropping speed on grades, but I do mind dropping too far. I've seen too many folks get torpedoed by some idiot who has to weave the lanes at 90mph and wasn't expecting a slow mover. My current rig pretty much can't get dropped under 55mph. I'd settle for 40-45. The highest altitude we currently hit is a little over 8K. >can you keep your trailer under 5k Heck, I'm betting I can keep it to 2-3K. Seriously, it's in our best interest to keep it small, since driving a large vehicle all the way into the site is sometimes not an option. Having the trailer small means we can have one of our folks shuttle it back and forth with their car, or for shorter distances, just push it by hand with a dolly on the front. >how much can you afford to spend immediately? Interesting question. I would figure I could afford as much as $30K for a bus in perfect running/chassis condition, ready to strip out. Reality says, however, that anything I get will need *some* work, and the older it is, the more work it's likely to need. Mechanically, anything other than simple things, I'm probably going to have to have a shop do. I can only keep the bus on my property for 48 hours at a time, otherwise it has to be at the storage lot. Working on it at the lot is not practical, so that means that I need to be able to drive it at the end of the work-day. >how much do you want to spend, max? This is harder to answer, since build-out is something I can get away with doing over a longer time. I will want bathroom first, but even kitchen I can live without for a short time (we have a bit of experience cooking "primitive"). My expectation is to spend 1-2 years on build-out, doing the majority of the work myself. >do you have strong backs to unload bays/trailers, or do we need to take that into consideration? Wife, strong like Ox. Sorry, old joke between my wife and I. Yeah, in spite of our members being 40-65 years old, we're mostly in good shape. We've already been slinging the gear around for a few years. We're also smart/experienced enough to bring a hand truck and a 1K rated "wagon". >whats the tow length limit where you live? Being Arizona, there probably isn't one . Seriously, you gotta see the weird stuff this state will put tags on. However, unlike licensing, length limits are enforce by the rules of the state you're in. No doubt California has the most restrictive laws of the states we go to. California says no more than 65' total length, so on a 40' bus, the max trailer would be 25' *including* tongue length. Well within my needs. An interesting bit is that CA limits Buses/RVs to 40', except for 45' units ON APPROVED ROUTES. Some folks here might be interested. http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/traffops/trucks/bus-mh/fs-motorhms.htm | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1087 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.181.163.170 Rating: N/A |
Michael - After re-reading this thread, a few more thoughts have come to mind that might help: While you're still searching, and before spending the $$, take a look at some "entertainer" coaches for interior ideas. Some of the forty-footers can sleep up to twelve adults, many sleep six. Perhaps one of these concepts, with additional provisions for showering, food preparation, etc. might be the ticket? A coach that you should consider is one of the Prevost H3-40s or H3-41s. The 41s are kind of an "odd-duck", so prices are more depressed, however, they're basically the same as the 40, just a foot longer. But the main reason I mention these Prevost models is the very large baggage bins downstairs. The total cubic feet is greater than the MCIs, something I think you'd appreciate. Prevost, btw, builds shells with trailer hitches, so contacting them for info on a retrofit would be as easy as a phone call or two. Living where I do (Fresno, CA), getting anywhere requires climbing 6% grades to get out of the valley, so a somewhat similar situation as yours. Most coaches with either the 8V71 or the 6V92 will climb these grades at around 35 mph in 2nd gear. A coach equipped with either the 8V92 or a Series 60 will climb the same grades at 40+, depending on how it tips the scales - weight is a major factor. Interesting challenge you're facing, glad to see you're doing your homework! FWIW & HTH. . . | ||
| David Ljung Madison (Daveola)
Registered Member Username: Daveola Post Number: 97 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 63.204.157.4 Rating: N/A |
Michael, don't give up, I can empathize with the frustration. Personally I think an MCI would be a good way to go, but as an owner I'm biased. I think you're right about cargo bays, and I like the essentially non-rusting MCI lower chassis. Though, if you can afford more than $15k, there's a lot to be said about the taller bays available on some of the newer coaches like the Prevost as RJ mentions (though check with your DMV before purchasing a 41 foot long vehicle!). They make me jealous, for sure. Might be worth checking out a greyhound and seeing what the cargo space is like. And while many people may have gone off on a discussion about trucks, there are many of us who think that you would be happy going down the adventure of getting a bus. | ||
| David Ljung Madison (Daveola)
Registered Member Username: Daveola Post Number: 98 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 63.204.157.4 Rating: N/A |
> your court argument is useless, because a lot of buses are not rated to tow *anything* ?? Any bus will come with a GCWR and a GVWR, and I was under the strong impression that pretty much any bus will have a GCWR greater than their GVWR. I know that most don't have any sort of hitch, but that doesn't mean the vehicle is not rated to tow - is there a bus that actually has a GCWR that is the same as the GVWR?? | ||
| Michael Sheldon (Msheldon)
Registered Member Username: Msheldon Post Number: 28 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 68.230.115.166 Rating: N/A |
I was wondering if someone would pick up on how tow ratings are calculated. And that's just it, the factory tow rating is a *calculated* number. It is the lesser of the GCVWR minus the Curb Weight or the hitch rating. The reason I say GCVWR - Curb Weight instead of GCVWR - GVWR is that no manufacturer uses that number, since the GVWR is the fully loaded value. Though the problem with this is if you really run the numbers on most light trucks, you often find it's not possible to tow up to the max tow rating without exceeding GCVWR, since *no* light truck is ever going to weigh as little as it's published curb weight. To truly know the tow capacity, it is the GCWVR minus the actual vehicle weight at time of tow, or the hitch rating, whichever is lower. This is why I'm a bit stubborn about not exceeding the tow rating on light trucks. There's no question in the world that exceeding the tow rating will put you well over the GCVWR. And in some of the states I travel in *cough* California *cough*, they *have* been known to weigh RV rigs they think exceed GVWR or GCVWR. Which leaves you with a big fine, and the question of how to get to where you're going, since they won't let you move on until you're under the legal rating. The manufacturers don't pull those numbers out the air, either. With the near war going on between the makers to have the best tow ratings, no maker will set the number any lower than they absolutely have to. *Something* in the system is not rated strong enough to handle additional load. The apparent challenge with buses seems to be building a hitch that will take the weight. From what I've seen, the GVWR and GCVWR are not so much a problem unless you really build out the interior very heavy. Been towing RVs since I was 17. You pick up a bit along the way. | ||
| Michael Sheldon (Msheldon)
Registered Member Username: Msheldon Post Number: 29 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 68.230.115.166 Rating: N/A |
>A coach that you should consider is one of the Prevost H3-40s or H3-41s. They are quite nice, but unless I'm looking in the wrong places, they seem to hold their value very well. As in, way, way out of my price range. | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Registered Member Username: Sffess Post Number: 662 Registered: 1-2002 Posted From: 67.142.130.21 Rating: N/A |
Michael, it sounds like you are not so much interested in converting a bus yourself as solving a problem that a conveted bus might solve for you. Even though you are leary of older buses, consider an already converted bus that meets your needs. One older but not ancient model that will meet most of your needs is a GM 4905, or H8H. There is more bay space than anything until the Prevost H3s were made. Huge bays! They once ruled the road and there are conversions out there that were completely redone mechanically and body wise. Then there are those where nothing was done but put up a few walls and ad a bit of cabinet work. If you include the 4905s in your search and you find one, or any other conversion that seems to meet your needs, come back to the board and ask for help before buying. You will need any puchase properly inspected buy a good bus mechanic that knows the model that you are looking at and by an RV service man that knows bus conversions. You may not save anything by building it yourself. A lot of guys on this board like to build it themselves, their way. But if you were going to put $50,000 or $60,000 in the completed coach, with or without your labor, which way would you go? Entertainer designs that sleep 10 can go for less money than RV designs, usuallly for two people. | ||
| Michael Sheldon (Msheldon)
Registered Member Username: Msheldon Post Number: 30 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 68.230.115.166 Rating: N/A |
>Michael, it sounds like you are not so much interested in converting a bus yourself as solving a problem that a conveted bus might solve for you. Well, that's probably because so far I've been more focused on what I need vs. what I want. Doing the interior conversion itself actually appeals to me quite a bit. It would allow me to design something specific to my needs and wants. Plus, I like to build things and have a decent shop and tools for doing woodwork, etc. And for the things I don't have the skills needed, I have friends who do. (Nice to have an electronics engineer as a friend.) The mechanical end concerns me more, I don't have the facilities or equipment to deal with major motor, suspension or frame work, and schedules are an issue. It's not a big deal to hit the road with a non-functional shower. It's a BIG deal if we have an event and the drivetrain has a problem. |
