| Author | Message | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 52 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 209.50.74.67 Rating: N/A |
Does anyone have any idea what would cause a 6V92TA DDECIV to miss badly and blow white smoke on startup for about 5 minutes then clear up on its own. There is only 15K on the engine. There are no codes shown at all to indicate anything wrong. It is gradually getting worse. Thanks for any ideas. Bill | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 46 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
Bill My first prognosis would be a malfunctiong injector. Joe. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 33 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 4.235.204.127 Rating: N/A |
Low compression in a cylinder or two will act that way. IF the fuel use is OK and she does'nt burn excessive oil forgetaboutit. FAST FRED | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 376 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.226.108.105 Rating: N/A |
white smoke...my guess...anti freeze getting into cylinders...leak between water jacket & combustion chamber..who overhauled it ?? | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
Registered Member Username: Drdave Post Number: 708 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 67.78.176.54 Rating: N/A |
A very cold engine will do that sometimes until there is enough heat in the cylinders to fire all the fuel. Cylinders with higher compression will usually fire first with ones at slightly lower compression picking up a few seconds later. This doesn't mean anything is majorly wrong, just compression is out of balance when the engine is really cold, Could also be a lazy injector that misbehaves when very cold too. If your engine is well below about 70 degrees it could happen as it takes time to heat up a compression-ignition engine. 4-strokes don't usually have this problem as most have glow plugs to get the extra heat into the fuel-air mixture on a dead cold startup. | ||
| David Hartley (Drdave)
Registered Member Username: Drdave Post Number: 709 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 67.78.176.54 Rating: N/A |
Oh.. Since you are in the COLD country, Maybe a block heater would solve your problem. Makes a grand difference. Detroits like to be heated up a little. If it runs good and has no other problems there probably is no reason to panic. | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 377 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.226.108.105 Rating: N/A |
wow.. I did not notice WHERE he lived...YES...cold engines act like that | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 123 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.107.75 Rating: |
Ulp~~ miss badly and blow white smoke on startup for about 5 minutes then clear up on its own It is gradually getting worse Water = White smoke. Oil = Blue smoke Fuel = Black/Grey smoke With most engines (gas or diesel), it's a sign of a blown/leaking head gasket...... (or a cracked head)...or as simple as poorly torqued head bolts.... Check both water and oil for water/antifreeze, and the coolant for oil.... | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 505 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 207.30.189.34 Rating: |
White smoke can also be unburned diesel smoke. I see this from our engine when ambient temps are below 40 degrees, Clears as engine warms up. I have also seen this from webastos that need adjusting as well as diesel powered heavy equipment that is started in cold weather. You might want to have a good DD 2 stroke mechanic run the rack to make sure all your injectors are working properly and are adjucted correctly. As alreay mentioned, low compression can contribute to the problem. If it is water getting into the combustion chamber (head gasket, craked head, etc.) the problem will become worse as the engine heats up and will not clear up as engine warms up. Jack | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 124 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.107.75 Rating: |
Not to belabor the "debate", Jack.... but as parts heat up, they expand.... Just as an exhaust leak can magically disappear when the manifold's hot, a leaky head gasket will magically seal when the head's hot and providing better compression between it, the gasket and the block..... I'm not a "2-stroke" expert, but I've never witnessed fuel or oil overabundance resulting in white smoke..... Blue or grey/black... yes. I wouldn't continue running an engine with an assumption it's a "normal cold weather condition"... I'd check out the most obvious and rule out a possible catastrophic ending. | ||
| Tim Hoskinson (Tdh37514151)
Registered Member Username: Tdh37514151 Post Number: 197 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 4.252.70.197 Rating: |
I have been around diesel engines of many different makes for all of my 47 years and have worked on a good many in the last 20 years and I can tell you that unfired diesel fuel in an injected, heated but nonignited state will appear as white smoke. As mentioned here by others this can be caused by low compression, incorrect timing, or injector problems. As for the cracked head or head gasket leaking these are possibilites that have a fair amount of variables. In some cases as mentioned heat will serve to close up the leaks. In other cases heat serves to increase pressures and increases the symtoms. I would suggest keeping an eye on the coolant as well as the oil and see if any contamination occurs. If you are in the cold weather this will exaggerate any slight low compression or injector imperfection you may have as already mentioned. Keep an eye on you coolant and oil if no contamination is present and the problem is getting worse you may just have a injector that needs attention. Best of luck. Tim | ||
| Skip N (Skip)
Registered Member Username: Skip Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 65.19.219.57 Rating: N/A |
To me it really comes down to an order of diagnostics. Start with the easy and down the list to more expensive tests. 1. Antifreeze in oil etc. -Take an oil sample and have the local diesel shop send it in for analysis. the most sure method. 2. With the engine cold start it up and check at the radiator cap for bubbles or big air burps coming up. yes when the thermastat opens you will have some overflow and mess. 3. Pull the injectors and have them tested. At the same time do a compression test. Both with the engine being cranked over and a static test. To me chances are it is the injectors. 15k miles and no problem indicates either an injector went bad or something else has happened to cause the other possible problems. My Cat 3306, case 503, John deere and ford 7.3 all have had bad injectors and reacted the way you discribed. Skip | ||
| Brian Brown (Blue_velvet)
Registered Member Username: Blue_velvet Post Number: 399 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 209.120.188.214 Rating: N/A |
Yes, a COLD engine can blow white smoke and it's often unburnt fuel getting past the rings. Once warm, overfueling leads to black smoke. Take a sniff of the smoke... unburnt fuel will tear your eyes and smells just like diesel. Antifreeze would likely have a sweet smell. If you really want to rule out antifreeze, just momentarilly pull the oil pan plug over a jug. The green or red stuff WILL be in the bottom of the pan if you have any in your oil, since it's heavier than oil. I had a few quarts of green come out of an MC8 I owned briefly. That and the water-thin multi-grade oil I saw pouring out told me REAL fast to find another bus. I agree that it's likely an injector or two. Best to find out for sure, though. HTH, Brian Brown 4108-216 w/ V730 Longmont, CO USA | ||
| Ed Jewett (Kristinsgrandpa)
Registered Member Username: Kristinsgrandpa Post Number: 274 Registered: 2-2003 Posted From: 64.24.212.91 Rating: N/A |
If it will run 5 min. that should be enough to start the block to warm up. With a non-contact infra-red thermometer you should be able to tell which cyl(s) are the culprits. Thia will narrow down the search/diagnosis. Ed | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Registered Member Username: Pvcces Post Number: 1018 Registered: 5-2001 Posted From: 65.74.65.54 Rating: N/A |
Bill, if the engine isn't fully broken in and it gets idled a lot without going out on the road and getting it hot, low compression sysmptoms can gradually get worse. I don't know how you use your coach, but if it's getting out on the road monthly, then this probably wouldn't apply. Good luck. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 53 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 209.50.73.34 Rating: N/A |
Guys Thanks for all the suggestions as to the problem. I knew I could count on this board for ideas. This engine is in a friends 4107 which we installed the same as mine. It was professionaly rebuilt in MO and has run great till now. The oil and antifreeze remain normal levels but my friend is alarmed at the white smoke as he is heading for Texas for the winter and doesn't want any problems on the road. I will take all your suggestions and my Prolink 9000 and go to his place and try to find out what is wrong. I have had him monitor levels and tighten up wires to no avail so we will look at other things. Bill | ||
| Larry Higuera (Larryh)
Registered Member Username: Larryh Post Number: 8 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 64.192.95.151 Rating: N/A |
Bill This is common on a DD I would bet money on a injector leaking> Were the injectors new or rebuilt when engine done? If rebuilt get them to stand behind them and check them on a flow bench and make sure their spray pattern is right for the injector your using. LarryH | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 378 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.226.225.100 Rating: N/A |
If he is not useing a block heater...this is how a DD acts,if he doesn't have a block heater he needs to get one,tell him to come on down,85 in south Texas today | ||
| Al Butler (Abajaba)
Registered Member Username: Abajaba Post Number: 3 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 63.254.147.109 Rating: N/A |
Isn't DDEC IV using electronic injectors? Did he have a block heater plugged in? Have the oil or antifreeze levels changed drastically with time? In my experience with diesels the white smoke is fuel that is not burned. If the smoke is blue then it is oil that is being burned or somehow getting into the combustion process of the engine. The black smoke is fuel that started to burn but it didn't have enough oxygen to complete the combustin process. If an engine is smoking white the fuel is not igniting. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 125 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.107.123 Rating: |
OK! I have been educated (again).....! WHITE SMOKE Thick, white exhaust is a clear sign of incomplete fuel combustion, especially when accompanying a hard start http://detroitdieselstepup.com/ 14.11 EXCESSIVE WHITE SMOKE There are several causes for excessive white exhaust smoke. These probable causes are:Defective Fuel PumpAerated FuelImproper Valve Clearance, Worn or Damaged Camshaft Lobes and RollersFaulty Fuel NozzleFaulty PLD-MR Control UnitImproper Grade of Fuel http://www.detroitdiesel.com/public/sibs/sibs/8-MBE900-03a.pdf (or here) I would still check for water in the oil, and vice-versa, simply because I'm a stubborn SOB from the old school...... | ||
| Jerry Campbell (Jerrync)
Registered Member Username: Jerrync Post Number: 36 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 76.182.44.149 Rating: N/A |
Tell your frind to go and injoy his trip this is norm for the cold | ||
| Tony Gojenola (Akbusnut)
Registered Member Username: Akbusnut Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 69.178.30.245 Rating: N/A |
I had a very similar problem with my 8v71/4106 that got much worse this past spring after sitting all winter. I had noticed that for some time it missed a little and ran rough when first started. It blew lots sof white smoke and was very slow to accelerate above idle. It got so bad that I had to let it idle for about 3 or 4 minutes until it smoothed out before I could get it to rev up at all. This turned out to be a fuel starvation problem caused by a cracked fuel line fitting which admitted air and allowed the line to drain back into the tank. After letting it run for awhile the problem went away, but always came back after sitting overnight. But after installling as sight glass in the fuel line exiting the primary filter and seeing all the air that went through it, the diagnosis was complete. Finding and fixing the source of the air was not as easy. ymmv tg | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 240 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 63.97.117.35 Rating: N/A |
My 6-71 does the same thing in cold weather (Below 50*F) if I don't use ether. This is normal for DDs and the posts that said don't worry about it are on the money. That list by MC9 is only for gas engines. | ||
| JR Lynch (Njt5047)
Registered Member Username: Njt5047 Post Number: 103 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 69.132.234.141 Rating: N/A |
Since it misses for 5 minutes, take a infrared gun and check the exhaust manifold temps...see which cylinder (s) is screwing up. If you have an MCI, hope it's on the RH side. That's the "easy" side. My bus will start in 30* weather without a block heater, but it will smoke up the place bigtime for a minute or so. It'll blow white smoke and unburned fuel in temps below 50*. Stops smoking pretty quick. Block heater solved this problem. Believe I'd be checking the fuel lines and fittings too....minor air leaks will act like you describe. Even DDEC injectors leak, and can cause as much trouble as an MUI...I should add that they don't cause a lot of trouble...neither do MUIs. They are electronic. Knowing which injector or cylinder is causing the problem is a good start. We'll hope that it is something simple like an injector...? Other options have been covered. If it ain't an injector...$$$$$. Installing a block heater may resolve you problem too. Should have a block heater. Post what you find. JR (Message edited by njt5047 on November 25, 2006) | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 54 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 209.50.74.54 Rating: N/A |
Guys Once again thanks for the ideas. I downloaded the one from John and I will use the infra red gun to test the temp as JR suggests. Good ideas. Bob. 85 sounds great but we are only down to 55 now so its not too bad yet. Next week they say below freezing. BRRR. Bill | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 381 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.226.108.175 Rating: N/A |
IF he's coming to the valley,tell him to bring me a couple of big cans of yuban coffee | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 55 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 209.50.74.50 Rating: N/A |
Bob I'm not sure what part of Texas he goes to but I will mention it to him. Bill | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 942 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 64.228.90.131 Rating: N/A |
Hello Bill Just thinking out loud. Got my vote, white smoke, when starting cold, is fuel. Gradually getting worse in relation to the changing seasons? Slowly getting cold, slowly smoking more? If all is normal when warm, perhaps this is just something to get used to in the new motor? He used to have a normally aspirated, now has a turbo electronic. Maybe just different behaviour? The starting conditions for a busnut are very much unlike a commercial service. Busnuts do not run the engine every day. In commercial service, where most of the experience and knowledge comes from, the motors often never cool right off, and do not sit for very long, fuel and oil draining back, moving parts getting more resistant to moving as they should, or sticking momentarily, like ours do. Busnuts get to see and experience stuff a veteran driver or technician have never seen in their working carreers. And a lot of it is normal! I'm all in favour of the easiest and cheapest ideas first! happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Phil Dumpster (Phil_dumpster)
Registered Member Username: Phil_dumpster Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.112.31.65 Rating: N/A |
If you crank the engine when it is stone cold, does it crank at a nice, steady rate or does it speed up and slow down rapidly with every revolution of the crank? | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 56 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 209.50.73.70 Rating: N/A |
Hi Ewen We are going to check the temp of each cyl to see which ones are cold. It used to run fine but has started to act up lately. I wish it would put out a code so we had some idea which thing has gone south. Phil It cranks normal and starts within a few revs. It just smokes/shakes and takes about 5 min to smooth out and run clean. Bill | ||
| Al Butler (Abajaba)
Registered Member Username: Abajaba Post Number: 4 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 63.254.147.109 Rating: N/A |
A turbo engine will have lower compression by design and thus it won't be as easy to start when cold. The old naturally asperated engines had a higher compression ratio that made them easier to start. The miss is related to the white smoke. One or more cylinders don't fire off when the engine first starts to run. Only after the engine runs on the operating cylinders for a while do the rest of the cylinders start lighting their fuel charge. If this is happening more as the temperature drops that could be normal. Make certain that you have the block heater plugged in for a couple of hours before starting. That will clear a lot of the white smoke and the miss on startup. If you are still getting the miss and the white smoke with a couple of hours of pre-heat, then there is something wrong with the engine or the block heater. You should be able to feel some heat on the block of the engine after it is plugged in for a couple of hours. |
