| Author | Message | ||
| mark (Coolbus)
Registered Member Username: Coolbus Post Number: 30 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 71.1.128.196 Rating: N/A |
What is the difference with this engine from, say the DD two strokes I've seen? Thanks Mark | ||
| Jerry Campbell (Jerrync)
Registered Member Username: Jerrync Post Number: 39 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 76.182.44.149 Rating: N/A |
Mark the 50 series is a four cylinder version of the 60 series with 250 to 275 hp 890 tor @ 1200rmps that will get 10mpg the 6V92 has 257 to 277 hp with 816 tor @ 2100 rpm and will give 6 mpg (Message edited by jerry@nc on November 27, 2006) | ||
| mark (Coolbus)
Registered Member Username: Coolbus Post Number: 31 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 71.1.128.196 Rating: N/A |
thanks Jerry by the way, is this a two stroker? thanks MArk | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 116 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 71.125.9.251 Rating: N/A |
4 stroke, usually a very desirable engine. It is on the heavy/large end of the scale. | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 245 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193 Rating: N/A |
very desireable = expensive Another thing, since it is a LARGE displacement 4 cylinder, it cannot be dynamically balanced throughout the rpm range & it WILL shake EVERYTHING at idle. This shaking must not be that bad if it is still so expensive on the used market. A inline 6 cylinder can be balanced & this makes for a much smoother power unit. Now, If I could just figgure out a way to stuff a 12V71T in mine, that would be one smooth ride (even if it was thirsty  ) | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 391 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.226.225.51 Rating: N/A |
a little 6 cyl. cat will outperform a 12 cyl DD | ||
| Brian Elfert (Belfert)
Registered Member Username: Belfert Post Number: 22 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 132.148.80.215 Rating: N/A |
Even a Series 60 in a bus designed for it vibrates a fair amount at idle. That is my experience with my Dina at least. Brian Elfert | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 944 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 64.231.9.193 Rating: N/A |
Hello. Greyhound has some MC12 with the Series 50 installed, and there have been articles written years ago in the trade press of a number of fleets doing retrofits into MC9 for dedicated routes where the economy gains could be accurately measured. I have driven one of the MC12 and they are nice. Mated to a an overdrive tranny, it is somewhat unnerving to be running 70 mph in that style of bus and not hear the engine screaming down the back. Extra torque is subtle, and of course, welcome!! Fuel consumption only improves dramatically if you get the revs down with an overdrive or refrofit a taller differential gear. See the coaches with Series 60 tied to a HT direct drive tranny, they don't get the economy that the overdrive B500 tranny will allow, unless a really tall diff is installed, and then start-up is harder. The shaking is a problem, if you are going to be idling a lot. The high idle switch does smooth it out a bit in the transits where this motor is popularly used, and a busnut doesn't idle the way a commercial coach does. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Ricky D. West (Gg04)
Registered Member Username: Gg04 Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 74.241.196.238 Rating: N/A |
Series 50 was originally a off road and export engine...DD engineers said it had to much uncontrolable vibration to be used in the domestic market...but smog, epa rules seems to have changed that opinion..first started popping up in transits after invention of reverser gear in transits to replace the 6L71ta ddec and Cummins being tried as fuel efficient smog engines..Then hound and everyone else started using as replacement to 92 series..about same physical size as a 6v92 a 3x3x3 foot cube.. | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 246 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193 Rating: N/A |
RE: a little 6 cyl. cat will outperform a 12 cyl DD Oh Yeah? I think it all depends on what you want for performance. I think a 12V71T would look way better than a simple straight 6! 3mpg won't matter if I never drive it! | ||
| Mark Renner (Boomer)
Registered Member Username: Boomer Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 12.180.53.193 Rating: N/A |
I think the 50 Series is a very viable option, IF you are talking MCI. I know of two major fleets up here in the NW who have performed this conversion multiple times. And of course, Greyhound is running how many MC-12s with them. The beauty of putting one in an MCI is that virtually all the parts can be purchased over the counter, right out of the MC-12 parts manual. Complete Coach Works has also done a lot of these conversions. It's a nice little engine, and can achieve 325+ HP and 10+ MPG, but you will notice vibration at slow idle. Of course this is a DDEC engine, so matching up to a ATEC transmission, or better yet a WTEC, would be recommended. Consultation with an Allison rep who knows coach applications should be considered essential. The electronics involved in this application HAVE to be done correctly. | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 392 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.226.237.163 Rating: N/A |
that's right, I forgot you never plan on driveing or finishing your bus | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 350 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.126.56 Rating: N/A |
Kyle: go with a 12V92; there are plenty of V-6's to put together to make one. | ||
| Mark Renner (Boomer)
Registered Member Username: Boomer Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 12.180.53.193 Rating: N/A |
Why go halfway?? How about putting in a 16V92, or better yet, a 16V149!!! Seriously, 12V71's were a hecuva good engine. I had several back in my trucking days in the late '60s and '70s and I always got excellant service out of them, albeit hard on fuel. At 80,000 lbs. they all got a consistant 4.3, no matter who drove 'em or where in the western states they were running. They were a real long life engine. Never turbo'd one, but knew some guys that ran produce from L.A. to Edmonton that did. | ||
| RW Stoike (Rdub)
Registered Member Username: Rdub Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 216.196.155.49 Rating: N/A |
The Series 50 w/Allison 731 is a GREAT replacement for the 671s out there. I have this combo in my Silversides. The fast idle feature eliminates any vibration and a diesel should be "fast idled" anyway. Plus the cruise control and power steering pump add to the available options. Buy an RTS with a 50 and you'll have all the extra parts you need for the full package. Good Luck! | ||
| Jerry Campbell (Jerrync)
Registered Member Username: Jerrync Post Number: 41 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 69.132.150.103 Rating: N/A |
My dad is puting a 50 in his as we talk at will be at Arcadia this year. when I talked to him and sunday the 8v92 is out , so if any is looking for a 500 hp 8/92 in good shape and make sure that you had big fuel tanks. dad holds 400 gals Fuel=HP | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 247 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.4.181.89 Rating: N/A |
It's not that I don't plan on finishing my bus, I do, I just cant't decide which one of the 4 Scenicruisers I own to work on. However, If I could find a S-50 in a transit bus for the right price, I'd put her in one of mine as soon as I could! I wouldn't have to worry too much about rust being shook off since it ain't a Eagle. Just kidding. | ||
| Mark Renner (Boomer)
Registered Member Username: Boomer Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 12.180.53.193 Rating: N/A |
Ouch! That's cold. At least an Eagle ain't sitting on the ground when the air runs out. | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 248 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.4.181.89 Rating: N/A |
Hey Greenwood, Is a conversion ever finished? My buddy that hauled my last 2 scenics home has a cat in his 2000 pete. he gets 5.1 mpg fully loaded at 80 to 90K lbs (heavy equipment) & it improves to 5.3 mpg empty. He's been keeping a fuel log for 440,000 miles to show it. So that 12V71 doesn't sound as bad. . . As far as sitting on the ground when the air runs out, yeah, they do get real close to the dirt, but I was still able to crawl under the back to disconnect the park brakes, so it wasn't that low. But hey, I didn't have rust piles to crawl over LOL Seriously. I like Eagles, almost as much as the Scenicruisers. All aluminum construction can corrode too. At least with an Eagle I could weld it back. I still haven't learned how to weld aluminum.  | ||
| Dick Bell (Richardkan)
Registered Member Username: Richardkan Post Number: 39 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 152.163.100.138 Rating: N/A |
Sorry about the Ebay item reference Ian. But it seems to be somewhat on topic for this discussion. Personally had never heard of a 12v71 in this type of application #160056001872 | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 43 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.80.150 Rating: N/A |
Gosh, gotta get my two cents in! All 100 MC-6s came with 12V71s and a Spicer 8844 4-speed stick. They burned clutches and broke transmissions at a high rate of speed. The crank pulley is actually IN the rear bumper, and everything is driven off a Spicer auxiliary drive in the right corner. In 1973 Greyhound converted 82 of them to an 8V71 with a 740 auto. 18 were left with the V12 for service in the Canadian Rockies. The V8's wouldn't get out of their own way, so the dog added turbo's which helped a little. Mine was one of the 18, but the "buzzin dozen" is just too long to install an auto, so an 8V92 and a 748 are coming! | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 393 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.226.108.109 Rating: N/A |
I found something out that is hard to believe,at the flea mkts. ,they have those guys selling stuff to weld aluminum,they weld two aluminum cans together,that stuff is GREAT... | ||
| Pete/RTS Daytona (Pete_rtsdaytona)
Registered Member Username: Pete_rtsdaytona Post Number: 286 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 72.40.3.47 Rating: N/A |
Boomer Here's some interesting data - from a Study in Canada on diesel stationary engine - see appendix 1 - the Series 50 and the 6V92TA used almost identical amounts of fuel / hour see--> http://www.ghgregistries.ca/registry/out/C1688-01DEC95-RPT.PDF Pete RTS/Daytona | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 249 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.4.181.89 Rating: N/A |
As bad as my buses may be in your eyes, they still rate better than aluminum cans, well to me anyway I looked in to the flea-market alum welding magic several years ago. The only thing I remember from that was that it wasn't suitable for my needs, ie; not structural. But since I suffer with CRS, it is possible I can't remember stuff. | ||
| Mark Renner (Boomer)
Registered Member Username: Boomer Post Number: 8 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 12.180.53.193 Rating: N/A |
Pete That is a very interesting article. Industrial engines come about as close as you can get to operating in a perfect regime. Coach engines? That's another ball game. It would be interesting to get the real skinny on the difference in fuel MPG between the Greyhound 6V92 and S50 powered MC-12's. I believe that would be a true comparison. Anybody got connections at GHL? | ||
| H3-40 (Ace)
Registered Member Username: Ace Post Number: 366 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 75.200.5.151 Rating: N/A |
A little off topic but welding aluminum is not all that hard to do. It's more in the equiptment than it is in the equipment operator. If you have the RIGHT stuff, it CAN be fairly easy! A spool gun with a high frequency machine makes it even easier! I personally like the tig method as it's a lot cleaner. Might be slower but I feel you have more control... again... FWIW Ace | ||
| Jerry Campbell (Jerrync)
Registered Member Username: Jerrync Post Number: 42 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 69.132.150.103 Rating: N/A |
Pete what I read that the 50 use 29.4% less fuel then the older engines | ||
| Pete/RTS Daytona (Pete_rtsdaytona)
Registered Member Username: Pete_rtsdaytona Post Number: 287 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 72.40.12.81 Rating: N/A |
Jerry what "older engines" - I still read 6V92TA is about the same as the Series 50 Please explain ?? | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 44 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 206.149.192.43 Rating: N/A |
I still read 6V92TA is about the same as the Series 50 The biggest operational difference is the 2 stroke gets poor mileage while operated under about 60% power. The gearing and tranny spin the engine as if every mile were uphill. The 4 strokes can operate at lower RPM efficiently and the electrics tell the overdrive tranny when to shift. So one will highway "cruise" at 2000 RPM , the other at 1400. Saves mucho fuel, part of the reasons ONE LASTS 300,000 MILES THE OTHER A 1,000,000. Of course 60 extra years of engineering helps too. FAST FRED | ||
| John Harrelson (Jharl)
Registered Member Username: Jharl Post Number: 18 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 72.71.226.120 Rating: N/A |
Hi all, I have a 8v71 in my 64 01 eagle, what would be a four cycle 400 hp relacement that would just about bolt in? (Message edited by jharl on December 01, 2006) | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 399 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.226.108.83 Rating: N/A |
3406 B CAT......don't forget the "B" | ||
| Mark Renner (Boomer)
Registered Member Username: Boomer Post Number: 13 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 12.180.53.193 Rating: N/A |
No 4 stroke will "just about bolt in". It is a lot of work and $$. I put a ISM 450 and World trans in my M-10 and can attest to the above. In my modest opinion, the most HP increase for the $$ in your case would be to rebuild and turbo your existing 8V71. You can get 350 to 370 HP out of this, and the engine is pretty bullet proof. Next would be a 8V92 conversion. Special attention must be given to the cooling system in any case. | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 416 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 64.136.49.228 Rating: N/A |
the neat thing about a 3406 "B" is it's a non-electronic engine...no computer B.S. ..........( WEEEE )...& it will bolt up to a standard trans flywheel in a bus, so...get the engine straight & leval & make new motor mounts down to the cradel... | ||
| T. (Bluegrass)
Registered Member Username: Bluegrass Post Number: 220 Registered: 4-2002 Posted From: 72.160.128.210 Rating: N/A |
Bob just wondering what are the dementions of the 3406 B and ant It the same as the C | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 420 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 64.136.49.228 Rating: N/A |
'C' is an electronic engine...same physical size tho.... I just don't like the computer engines,the 'b' you just hook up a fuel line & battery & she is ready to go | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 46 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.81.154 Rating: N/A |
John, Mark is right, and the reason "T" asked for dimensions on the Cat was due to his concerns about overall length. The correct answer to your question about [a 400 hp replacement for an 8V71] "that will just about bolt in" is an 8V92T. It WILL bolt to your trans, give you lots more power, better fuel mileage, AND FIT IN YOUR ENGINE ROOM! NONE of the 6 cylinder in-line four strokes by Cat, Cummins, or a Series 60 Detroit, will fit in a bus which which was built for two rows of four, (V-8) without adding a LOT of cash!!! Any horsepower upgrade will burn more fuel, which will require more radiator to get rid of more heat. V71s, and V92s have two auxiliary drive connections on the back end of the cams, which turn at engine speed, one on the blower drive which turns at twice engine speed, and one on the side that can be made to turn at about 1.2 times engine speed. The bus builders usually used three of these to good advantage, and as there are none on the inlines, MAJOR modifications are necessary to the auxiliaries to to install a four stroke six. FWIW, & PsTP. | ||
| Bob greenwood (Bob_greenwood)
Registered Member Username: Bob_greenwood Post Number: 421 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 64.136.49.228 Rating: N/A |
don't want this to get into an arguement,but there is no need for a blower drive on a 6 cyl. cat & I don't know about the other buses,but my Eagle has 2.5 foot between the front of the engine & the rear door. | ||
| Mark Renner (Boomer)
Registered Member Username: Boomer Post Number: 15 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 12.180.53.193 Rating: N/A |
The fact that we are talking a Model 01 here makes a conversion slightly easier, in that the engine does not have to be set over to port in order for drive line alignment (05's and newer used the drop box) The Cummins M11/ISM engine family has the turbo and intake manifold both on the RH side of the engine (port side of the bus) which makes things slightly crowded on that side, what with air intake and charge air intakes both on that side. With a Model 01, the engine can be placed in the center of the engine bay. Nothing wrong with putting a Cat, Cummins, or Series 60 in as long as you are not on a financial budget. The Series 60 is taller vertically than the others, so the engine tunnel will have to be enlarged, AND the pan will be closer to the pavement. A coach oil pan will be a necessity, can't use a truck pan. When you start exploring the possibilities, carefully calculate the various measurements from your prospective engines, not just the overall dimensions, but the crankshaft center line, and driveshaft angle on your existing power pack. The driveshaft can only be shortened so much. Keep in mind that as Bob G. says, yes there is ample room to move the engine to the rear, but it affects the weight and balance of the coach. Moving that much weight back just a minor amount makes a large difference in how much weight comes off the front end. Before I did anything, I would carefully examine the bus frame for rust (this is a M-01 after all) to see if it will hold up to sinking that much money into it, or on it in this case. The cost of a new engine is just the starting point. Think of the cost of rebuilding and modifying your radiator to get the CAC pipes into the engine compartment, fabricating engine mounts, air intakes, exhaust, oil, fuel, electrical lines, fan drive, driveshaft modification, etc, etc. It ain't for the faint of heart, and this is why rebuilding/turboing your existing engine starts to become attractive. But, when you accomplish all this re-engineering, and spend all this money,you WILL have something to be very proud of. That's why we call ourselves busnuts. | ||
| Darren Upfield (Mwerx)
Registered Member Username: Mwerx Post Number: 30 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 66.82.9.55 Rating: N/A |
Hi all earlier this year I got talking to two detroit mechanics & the only good thing they could say about the 50 series was it would keep them in work till retirement, not one good word for it,yet I have not seen any bad words on the board ?? I know the uints they are working on are commercial use.any thaughts Darren. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 47 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.81.154 Rating: N/A |
Something got lost here! The blower drive on a V Detroit drives MOST everybody's alternator. The cam drives run the air comprssor and the steering pump on MOST busses. I know there is no blower drive on a turbo, what I was suggesting in the form of a question was, what do you do with ALL of the auxiliaries when you DON'T have drives? Putting anybodys inline 6 in a bus in place of a V-8 is going to require an additional foot of length... In an 01, how are you going to drive the mitre box? So, use an 8V92T, and the only large change will be the exhaust. A bigger radiator goes without saying. |