| Author | Message | ||
| Thomas Weeks (Buscrazytom)
Registered Member Username: Buscrazytom Post Number: 73 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.188.77.156 Rating: N/A |
I have been debating starting this thread for a while now, as I don't want to put anyone on the spot. I would, however, like to hear from owners of 4107's & 4108's on this issue. I read a while back a post here in the archives pertaining to 35' Buffalo's written by RJ Long, who's opinions I usually give the same weight as those of God when it comes to coaches, that said the 35' Buffalo's didn't handle well in high winds and could get to the point of being scary. I would like to hear opinions from owners of these buses relative to that issue, and should that deter me from purchasing one. Could you, say for instance, drive one over the Delaware Memorial Bridge without the need for adult diapers? Is this problem bad enough that it should deter me from purchasing one. Has this condition ever caused a recorded accident? I have seen many owners who seem quite happy with theirs. If you've got a 35' Buff,let me know what you think, and I would possibly like to hear from Mr. Long as well, maybe to clarify his comments. Thanks Tom Weeks BusCrazyTom the Analog Dinosaur Stupid Bus Newbie | ||
| Douglas Wotring (Tekebird)
Registered Member Username: Tekebird Post Number: 32 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 69.136.90.146 Rating: |
Tom, having driven my Dad's 4108 in high winds, it does get blown a bit more than the 4104......due to profile It is not something to be worried about really and it is much less than any 26 foot box truck or sticks and staples MH | ||
| Thomas Weeks (Buscrazytom)
Registered Member Username: Buscrazytom Post Number: 74 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.188.77.156 Rating: N/A |
Mr. Wotring, Thanks for the opinion and reference to the box truck, because I have driven those in high winds, even over the Delaware, and I have a reference to how that handles, so if you say the 4108 is less than that , that's a good thing. Tom | ||
| Jerry Liebler (Jerry_liebler)
Registered Member Username: Jerry_liebler Post Number: 238 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 75.117.212.176 Rating: |
Tom, I have driven mine in very gusty conditions & it does require lots attention to stearing corrections. About the worst I've encountered was 70 mph peak gusts, according to the weather reports, traveling the Columbia gorge on I80. This is a great spot for windsurfing but the road winds through steep hills along the river so gusts are very nasty. I was able to stay in my lane but I did slow to 45 mph and it was lots of work. If it gets real gusty just slow down. Regards Jerry 4107 1120 | ||
| H3-40 (Ace)
Registered Member Username: Ace Post Number: 402 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 75.201.13.2 Rating: |
Tom, my very first bus was a 35' 4107 that was already converted in a back yard. It was a fine bus as in, well built and because the motor and trans were pretty fresh, it had plenty of power. Only time I had a problem with it swaying was in a cross wind on I-10 heading towards Tallahassee. Come to find out, it had a bad steering box. I really liked that bus for the power and ease of driving! I had that bus in places I wouldn't think to take my current bus now! If you found a good one, for a good price, go for it! You won't regret it! Ace | ||
| Thomas Weeks (Buscrazytom)
Registered Member Username: Buscrazytom Post Number: 75 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.188.77.156 Rating: N/A |
Thanks Jerry and Ace for the information which helps me put it all in perspective. Ace, that must have been some freak wind on I10 to Tallahassee, a route I travel often and have yet to experience any foul weather along that route. When I read that article by RJ Long, it made me think of my prior experiences crossing the Delaware Memorial Bridge, which makes me wish for a wind shear warning system regardless of what I'm driving, and it always manages to scare the S**T out of me. But if a short Buff is not as bad as a 26' box truck, then it'd be ok for me. Thanks gentlemen BusCrazyTom the Analog Dinosaur Stupid Bus Newbie | ||
| Glenn Williams (Glenn)
Registered Member Username: Glenn Post Number: 14 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 207.179.92.18 Rating: |
I realize that we are speaking of 4108's, but my 40 ft 4905 gives me no problems. On my maiden voyage I drove mine over the Mackinac Bridge in blizzard conditions and had no trouble what so ever. The only time it has tried to swap lanes on me was near a microburst type blast from an isolated t-storm. My bus has the power assist steering as opposed to Shepard. | ||
| Thomas Weeks (Buscrazytom)
Registered Member Username: Buscrazytom Post Number: 76 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.188.77.156 Rating: N/A |
Glenn, Thanks for the input. I've been told the 4905's don't have this problem. I love the Buffalo's, but I've been thinking I'd be better off with a 35' coach since most of what I will be doing could be considered "urban boondocking" in industrial complexes, residential districts and city back allys, so a 40'er might be a bit much. Thanks Tom | ||
| Glenn Williams (Glenn)
Registered Member Username: Glenn Post Number: 15 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 207.179.92.18 Rating: |
Smart plan for those areas. I understand mechanically the vehicles are the same (with some steel instead of aluminum) so that a comparison of a vehicle with that much more surface area to catch wind might be helpful. I think you'd love the 4107. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 353 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.126.56 Rating: |
Maybe they are standard, don't know for sure, but if it doesn't have the rear stabilizer bar, add it. | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 953 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 64.228.88.169 Rating: |
Hello Thomas. The biggest problem in seeking opinions to the performance of different models in windy conditions is the slim number of busnuts who: 1) paid any attention 2) have enough mileage in the various models 3) knew intimately the condition and optioning of each coach How stable a bus is in a gusting crosswind is a mix of variables: entire suspension system, steering system, weight on each axle, area of the side of the bus, shape of the bus, the wheelbase and the wind conditions, since they are different from storm to storm. The short buffalos (4107/4108) have more side area, due to being taller, than the 4104/4106 that preceded them, so drivers switching between them will notice a difference. However, remember that is a difference between the older buses and the newer buses. Drivers switching between a longer buffalo and a shorter may notice a difference. Again, apples or oranges? Provided that the difference wasn't due to some other difference between the coaches in how they were optioned or their condition. Sway bars, worn radius rods, integral steering vs Sheppard, etc. In more modern terms, a 40 foot MCI is nicer to drive in a gusting crosswind than any of the 45 foot coaches, either Prevost or MCI, partly due to the larger area of the sides, but more importantly, the front axle on the 45 foot coaches is more lightly loaded. The AC and fuel tank has migrated to the rear in the new coaches, lightening the front end. This has been done in order to not overload the front axle with a load onboard. The GVWR of the new coaches is up at 50 000 lbs, so there is a completely different ratio of weight to deal with over the shorter coaches. It is absolutely a "two hander" when there is a strong gusting cross wind. And that's also with a load of passengers on board! As Jerry posted, the solution to windy conditions in any coach is to slow down. It is amazing what a few MPH will do for stability and easing the stress factor. Just as a boat will be more stable if you slow up a bit and let the hull settle deeper in the water, slowing a bus in the wind will lessen the wind's power over the vehicle's directional stability. I loved the Makinac bridge, Glenn, they had the 20 mph advisory on the night we went over it. Wish I had the time to wait for it to be daylight! happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Thomas Weeks (Buscrazytom)
Registered Member Username: Buscrazytom Post Number: 77 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.188.77.156 Rating: N/A |
A very excellent analysis of the situation, Buswarrior, it brings to light several factors that I was not fully aware of. Thank you for explaining it thoroughly. Tom Weeks BusCrazyTom the Analog Dinosaur Stupid (but getting smarter) Bus Newbie | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1129 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.181.163.170 Rating: |
Thomas - I used to pound the pavement to the tune of 80,000 miles/year back in my charter days, which lasted just over 10 years, so take my comments for whatever they're worth. . . There are a few busnuts on here who are ex-truckers with many more miles under their belts than I have, but those were in trucks, which handle a whole lot differently than a bus does. Drove 4104s, 4106s, 4107s, 4108s, 4501s, 4905s, MC-5s, MC-7s, MC-8s, MC-9s, 102A3s, Eagle 05s and 10s, Prevost Champions and LaMirages. Sometimes two different models in the same day, but usually a different coach every day. Two of the three charter outfits I worked for had excellent PM programs, their coaches were always in "like-new" condition. The third, which I spent very little time at, was the major reason I moved to another company. . . Favorite? The 4106, that little sports car can go just about anywhere and is a ball to drive - it's definitely a "driver's coach". Which is why I own one - I enjoy driving it! In no particular order, I also liked the later MC-9s with integral steering, the MCI 102A3s (ours had 8V92TAs!), the sweet ride and huge baggage bins of the 4905s, and the tremendous brakes and rock-solid ride of the Scenicruiser. Was not as fond of the Prevosts or the Eagles. Never did like "sitting in a hole" compared to the MCIs. The Eagle has a great ride, just takes getting used to, especially coming out of an air suspended coach. As stated earlier, my least favorite were the 4107s and 4108s. Would often try to either bid off a run that had one assigned, or beg the dispatcher for a different coach. Anywhere we went on a charter out of Fresno required climbing 6% grades thru the mountains, often subjected to surprise crosswind gusts. When you have 35 people on board, with NO luggage, the center of gravity shifts upward. (Think 2.5 tons sitting 7 feet off the ground.) Now throw in the high sail area, shorter wheelbase, and a 35 mph crosswind gust, and you'd better be paying attention or you're in the next lane RIGHT NOW!! Don't misunderstand, however, they are not unsafe! Like any other vehicle, they take getting used to. Once you know their idiosyncrasies and adapt to them, they can be driven as safely as any other coach. They're just not on my favorites list. . . If you have a choice, the 4108 is the better model of the two, IMHO. Better dash, 24VDC system, etc. FWIW & HTH. . .  | ||
| Thomas Weeks (Buscrazytom)
Registered Member Username: Buscrazytom Post Number: 78 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.188.77.156 Rating: N/A |
Mr. Long, Thanks for the clarification of your previous post in the archives. After I read it, it raised questions with me regarding the total safety and drivability of those models (4107/4108), and I backed out of a deal on a '66 4107 ex-Greydog because I was unsure at that point. I don't like mountain conditions or high bridges very much personally and did not want a coach that would ruin my nerves in those situations. Think I understand it far better now. It just seems that a 4106 is getting harder to find still in seated configuration, as I would prefer a coach that no one has attempted to convert before, so I do not have to spend a lot of time "un-doing" someone elses mistakes, and I have been able to find a number of the seated "short Buff's" still around. Thanks again, Tom Weeks BusCrazyTom the Analog Dinosaur Stupid (but getting smarter) Bus Newbie | ||
| Brian Brown (Blue_velvet)
Registered Member Username: Blue_velvet Post Number: 406 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 72.19.152.144 Rating: |
I've had my 4108 about nine months now, and nearly 10k miles in various conditions. It does move around a little in crosswinds, but I doubt as much as RJ experienced in charter service since we carry a lot of stuff in the bays and is loaded differently as an RV. Back in my "sticks-n-staples" days, we had an old Class-A Winny that I thought would kill us in a crosswind... literally "blown all over the road". The 4108 is nothing like this, just requires a bit more attention. We had a 4106 last year that drove beautifully, and we toured 13 states and nearly 10k miles in her. We had to part with it because we needed an automatic to negotiate where we like to camp... state beaches, state parks, ski resorts, my mom-in-law's farm, etc. The high-geared reverse would also be impossible to back up our present driveway. I did enjoy driving the Spicer, though, and I miss it somedays when I'm just "hanging on and steering". I couldn't go back to those short 4106 bays, either... but we carry our bicycles everywhere we go, and I LOVE having them protected in a bay rather than hanging off the back getting covered in oil and bugs. Buff bays seem about twice as tall as the 4106's, though I'm sure they're not. I wouldn't be afraid to take my 4108 anywhere... and we're doing our darnest to take her everywhere. Brian B. 4108-216 w/ V730 | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1130 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.181.163.170 Rating: |
Thomas - Brian makes a very good point: The 4107/8 in RV configuration is loaded differently than in revenue service. Note in my comments that I said they became a handful when loaded with 35 passengers and NO luggage. Unfortunately, I left something out of that paragraph: In situations where the bus was loaded with passengers AND their luggage, or on one of our scheduled runs where there was also freight downstairs, the coach was far more stable and not as sensitive to crosswinds. They still required more attention than other models, but weren't nearly as bad as when they were loaded but running with empty baggage bins. The point here, Thomas, is that if you find a nice 4108, when you build it out, put the heavy stuff downstairs, build the house systems out of strong but lightweight materials, and keep the weight balanced left/right/fore/aft. By keeping the center of gravity as low as possible, you'll minimize the wander. Obviously, the suspension system being in top-notch condition goes w/o saying. . . Oh, and don't necessarily pass up a 4905. That extra five feet makes a HUGE difference in the ride, interior space, and basement storage. They actually turn tighter than an MC-9, too - even with the longer wheelbase! I never had any problems manoeuvering them around city streets - they're no worse than the 40-foot transit buses you see. So don't rule this model out, either. FWIW & HTH. . . | ||
| Thomas Weeks (Buscrazytom)
Registered Member Username: Buscrazytom Post Number: 79 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.188.77.156 Rating: N/A |
Thanks Brian, and again Mr Long, for the good insight. My experience in driving rigs of similar size is limited to large box trucks, which I am certain do not drive like buses, so I'm just trying to get a reference. I agree, Mr. Long, on the 4905, as this is the one I started looking at first, and may still buy if I decide on the extra 5 ft. I know it can make a big difference in enjoyability (not sure that's a word, but I just made it one ), but I've been chided by some of my clients that they think that would be too much to successfully negotiate around thier property. I know I'd be wanting that extra 5 when it gets to the point that I'm using the coach more for personal enjoyment than for business. Another stupid question, do the highway transits handle as easily in city conditions as say, an RTS? I watch the drivers around here take their RTS's in and out of traffic in tight spaces as effortlessly it seems as I do my Cadillac, which is almost as long as a short city bus anyhow . Thanks all for the great input. Tom Weeks BusCrazyTom the Analog Dinosaur | ||
| Brian Brown (Blue_velvet)
Registered Member Username: Blue_velvet Post Number: 407 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 72.19.152.144 Rating: N/A |
Tom, "highways" and "transits" are separate styles of busses . The RTS is a transit bus, and its drivers make it look effortless because they have more "seat time" than ANY of us will ever get out of our busses in RV service. I get a similar sense of awe watching those truckers back a 53' trailer into less than 10' of width between other tractor-trailers. Impressive! Mr. Long will no doubt be similarly effortless behind the wheel of a parlor coach (or anything else with 6 to 10 wheels and 35-45 feet long) because of his "seat time"... and make most of the rest of us seem inept and foolish by comparison. There's simply no short cut to this. And the best the rest of us can do is not to "hit stuff" as we increase our seat time. Presently, my family is at the point of upgrading to a 40' coach or seriously remodelling the middle part of our 4108 to make bunks for the kids. While the 35'er is nice in parking lots and tight spaces, an extra 5' would be a blessed addition on trips when 5 of us are clamoring for space. So you might well be better off with a 40'er. Brian | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1131 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 67.181.163.170 Rating: |
Thomas - You asked: "Another stupid question, do the highway transits handle as easily in city conditions as say, an RTS?" I already answered that question for you in the last paragraph I wrote about the 4905. But Brian's point about "seat time" is a good one. Transit drivers, regardless of the model bus they're piloting, spend 8 - 10 hrs a day, five days a week working in city traffic conditions. Doesn't take long, working like that, to become proficient. (Actually, if they don't become proficient, they're out of a job!) Brian is a good example of this, too, btw. He feels a LOT more comfortable behind the wheel of his coach now, after over 10K miles, than he did when he first climbed behind the wheel of a bus. (He was even talking about flying me to CO to help him learn awhile back - remember, Brian?) Do you have a video camera? If so, PM me. . . As for your client's property, it might be a good idea on your next visit to physically get out and walk around the grounds ("coffee break & stretch") with an eye towards answering the question: Could a bus manoeuvre around here? Brian - FYI, the industry term for "seat time" is actually "platform time". Comes from seat platform, which evolved from the streetcar days. Just some useless trivia for you. . . Hmmmmm. . . upgrading to a 4905 maybe, eh? There's one for sale here in Fresno. . . Road trip time? | ||
| Thomas Weeks (Buscrazytom)
Registered Member Username: Buscrazytom Post Number: 80 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.188.77.156 Rating: N/A |
Yes, I realized that you had answered the question after I had made the post, so please do not think I was being insolent, just stupid carelessness on my part. I understand what you mean about becoming comfortable and proficient in any vehicle, and there is no greater teacher than experience. I don't know about Brian, but it has always been in my plans to hire you to fly out and teach me to drive whatever bus I purchase, so I'll let you know when that glorious moment occurs. Thanks Tom Weeks BusCrazyTom the Analog Dinosaur | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 67 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 4.235.204.57 Rating: |
"but it has always been in my plans to hire you to fly out and teach me to drive whatever bus I purchase, so I'll let you know when that glorious moment occurs." Sounds like as good an investment as a ticket to Jacks. With a bit of instruction an auto tranny is not required and at $2.50 a gal , the difference in fuel mileage will pay dividends for decades. FF |
