| Author |
Message |
Pete/RTS Daytona (Pete_rtsdaytona)
Registered Member
Username: Pete_rtsdaytona
Post Number: 292
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 72.40.12.161
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 6:21 pm: | |
Hi All
HELP
I have a several hundred Feet of Pacer Marine E157057 (UL) Boat Cable AWG 12/3 - 600V (105C/75C-DRY/WET) - Tinned Copper - 3 wire Multi/Stranded Flat (blk/wht/grn)
Can I just put this type of wire under the screws on the outlets and Circuit Breaker - or - do I need to use crimp connectors on almost everything ??
Can I use standard "wire Nuts" on tinned strained Boat Wire ??
Can I use outlets that have just the "push in" type connections - The type you push the wire in and you can't pull it out without releasing the tab device ??
Thanks in advance
PETE RTS/Daytona
Getting Ready for Arcadia |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Registered Member
Username: Drivingmisslazy
Post Number: 1783
Registered: 1-2001
Posted From: 75.108.82.163
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 6:29 pm: | |
Pete, I have always been advised that stranded wire can not be used under screw terminals or in the slip in the hole type outlets.
As you are aware there are terminal strips where the wire is inserted in a hole and the screw then pushes a clamping device that holds the stranded wire great. Otherwise you need to use crimp on lugs. This is information I got from my UL inspectors.
Richard |
David Hartley (Drdave)
Registered Member
Username: Drdave
Post Number: 725
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 67.78.176.54
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 8:04 pm: | |
Push in connectors are more trouble than they are worth even in a house. They are made for solid wire only and do fail because of the small springy contact on one side of the wire.
You can use Crimp connectors which is best or in a pinch you can tin the ends of the stranded wire and bend around screws. ( not the best way )
Go for the spade lugs. Blue or Yellow.
Wire Nuts will work fine for temporary hookups with stranded. ( probably last forever that way )
I see machinery that has wire nuts from the factory all the time. Most use terminal strips but they might not comply with U.L. rating in an open environement.
See You in Arcadia.... |
Ed Jewett (Kristinsgrandpa)
Registered Member
Username: Kristinsgrandpa
Post Number: 281
Registered: 2-2003
Posted From: 64.24.209.157
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 8:31 pm: | |
Pete,
Richard gave you good advise/info and I would like to add that using wire nuts on stranded wire works very well if the wire isn't too fine stranded. Very fine stranded wire, like on SO cord (extension cord) will work but not as well.
Also use good, tinned lugs and don't over crimp them. I worked on a uranium enrichment plant at Piketon OH. where they make weapons grade plutonium, and we had to take a test before we were allowed to crimp any lugs onto wiring. We were doing fire alarms and security systems in the computer rooms and they were very picky about everything. The only crimping tool we were allowed to use was made by T&B (Thomas&Betts) and it had alignment marks on the tool to show sufficient crimp pressure.
Scotchlok wirenuts were the industry standard for years but I've had more failures with Schotchloks than any other. How many have I used?... probably enough to fill the bed of a short bed pickup truck in 38 yrs.
Ed |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Registered Member
Username: Drivingmisslazy
Post Number: 1786
Registered: 1-2001
Posted From: 75.108.82.163
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 9:24 pm: | |
What about DRDaves idea to tin the wire into a solid lead and then bend it around screws, like on an outlet. Would that be OK?
Ricard |
Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member
Username: Lsilva
Post Number: 80
Registered: 12-2000
Posted From: 75.117.52.119
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 9:40 pm: | |
Just my personal opinion since I prefer solid wire anyway but....Tinning the wire turns it in to a solid conductor, defeating the purpose of using stranded in the first place. The point immediately adjacent to the connection is where any failure might occur.
If you are going to use stranded, then good quality crimp lugs and the proper crimping tool is the way to go. Purchase only quality name brand lugs (I prefer T&B) and the matching tool.
Don't use the cheap all purpose cutter-stripper -crimpers. The best ones have a ratchet system that forces you to complete thr crimp before the tool will release.
If you do choose to tin the wire, be careful to work quickly with a hot iron and only tin the very end of the wire. Don't let the solder wick up into the wire.
Len |
ChuckMC9 (Chucks)
Registered Member
Username: Chucks
Post Number: 1071
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 69.3.75.18
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 10:41 pm: | |
tin, crimp, solder the lug, label, heatshrink. Repeat... and repeat... and repeat for 1 to infinity. ;) You'll be glad you did!
If your marine wire is like mine, it's very highly stranded, so Ed's statement probably applies.
(Message edited by chucks on December 21, 2006) |
Brian Brown (Blue_velvet)
Registered Member
Username: Blue_velvet
Post Number: 414
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 72.19.152.144
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 22, 2006 - 2:35 am: | |
The newer industrial-grade Leviton (and similar) receptacles and switches CAN be back-wired with solid OR stranded wire (per UL) because they use a clamping bar activated by the side screws. The better GFCIs have these, too, and I even prefer them to side-wiring with solid wire in home outlets. The suckers hold on TIGHT.
They are about 8-10x more expensive than the 79 cent "cheapie" ones, but for the number that you're putting in a coach, it wouldn't add up to much. In addition to the time savings, they're a lot beefier than the cheapie ones.
HTH,
Brian Brown
4108-216 w/ V730
Longmont, CO USA |
FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member
Username: Fast_fred
Post Number: 78
Registered: 10-2006
Posted From: 4.235.203.173
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 22, 2006 - 5:38 am: | |
I personally prefer to use marine terminal ends . For about $ 70 a MARINE rared crimping tool will crush the terminal end properly , which is hard enough to cold flow the tinning on these terminals.
Since I started in boats before this was on the shelf , I still prefer the older method.
A marine terminal is crimped on with the best crimper you can find, but first some shrink (aircraft supply) tubing is slipped in the wire.
The crimps are made , then I heat a BIG 3 -5 lb copper roofing iron.
The Art is to just touch the terminal long enough to melt the solder , bur NOT long enough to melt any of the solder up the wire , as flexing is the reason this is a superior wire. The tinning cuts corrosion to almost zero.
The end is coated at the end of the insulation with goop from the phone folks. This is great stuff , remember phone lines are very thin so corrosion is noise.
Then the 3x heat shrink is closed.
Final step is to use burgalar alarm stick on numbers to code the wire. One set near the end , another about a foot in , on each end of the wire. Cover the numbers with Scotch Majic tape (greasy hands wont pull the numbers loose.
It is NOT a big deal , esp if a whole bunch of ends are being fitted , the roofing iron will do dozens on one heating.
I run all the cable together , and use aircraft clips to hold the cable. It is great to slip in a 3/8 dowel with the cable run and use a few wire ties loose to allow the next wire to be strung.
When all finished , cable ties solid up everything , so the constant vibration has little chance of crystalizing the wire.
Although that is the purpose of the fine stranding, aircraft tie the wires about every 2 inches , and I have flown them older than me with the orig wires!
Good enough for me.
The Euro wimp cheapo method is a cup of molten solder, the wire end is simply dipped 1/4 inch into.
Then it goes into fittings or round/under screws easily.
FF |
Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member
Username: Kyle4501
Post Number: 264
Registered: 9-2004
Posted From: 65.23.106.193
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 22, 2006 - 9:12 am: | |
I found the outlets with the clamp like Brian is talking about at Lowes or Home Depot locally for about the same cost as a quality outlet. You still need to apply proper torque to the clamp screw. Add FF's suggestion for the phone line goop & you should be done with that connection for-ever.
Even with the crimp, you still have the screw clamp connection, so this outlet style allows you to eliminate an extra connection (the crimped end).
Pete, I used the push-in outlets on my first house. 12 years later, ALL outlets & switches were replaced due to so many failed connections at the outlets. Just to cheap a method for me to use again. When you add the cost of problems & replacement, it ain't the deal you thought.
As for joining wires, I'd prefer FF's method of crimping & solder.
kyle4501
(Message edited by kyle4501 on December 22, 2006) |
Jerry Liebler (Jerry_liebler)
Registered Member
Username: Jerry_liebler
Post Number: 240
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 75.89.155.47
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 22, 2006 - 1:05 pm: | |
The fixtures that are UL approved for stranded wire are approved for stranded THNN not boat wire. The finer stranding of boat wire will still cause grief.
If you are going to use boat wire (not code compliant in an RV) the safest termination will still be crimp terminals.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120 |
Stephen Fessenden (Sffess)
Registered Member
Username: Sffess
Post Number: 673
Registered: 1-2002
Posted From: 67.142.130.35
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 23, 2006 - 12:52 am: | |
I believe he will get a good permanent connection with the outlets that Brian suggested. Check ebay for some deals too. I have gotten Leviton professional GFI outlets for $4.50 each including shipping in lots of 5 and 20. It is getting cheap enough that you all might want to GFI every circuit. The GFI does not measure current loss to ground, by the way, but a difference between current in the two wires. It measures a difference and trips if there is 5 milliamps less current in one wire than the other. So if 5 milliamps is flowing through you instead of returning, it shuts off.
Since most of us are not young any more, I should also point out that as you age you could die from the same electric shock that you said a few choice words over when you were young. A young heart can fibrillate and then spontaneously restart. An old one is more likely to stay in ventricular fibrillation after a shock, meaning you die without the paddles. |
Robert & Debra White (Rob_n_deb)
Registered Member
Username: Rob_n_deb
Post Number: 7
Registered: 11-2006
Posted From: 24.116.249.45
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 3:21 pm: | |
PETE,
They all have given you very good advice, I felt compelled to add my two cents,
As with all Electrical Connections be sure that they are tight, As in trying to pull the wire back out of the receptacles, switches,, just give it a slight tug on wire,,,,The problem with any electrical device is loose connections, as long as they are tight, and suited for the correct amperes, You should have no trouble, Loose connections usually result in burnt electrical wires.....hope this helps, Rob n Deb |