| Author | Message | ||
| Pete/RTS Daytona (Pete_rtsdaytona)
Registered Member Username: Pete_rtsdaytona Post Number: 321 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 72.40.12.158 Rating: N/A |
A recent reply to Jack's Conrad's "PEX TUBING" post by a new member of this board - has stirred up memories from an incident a few years ago that I feel I must warn other unsuspecting Bus Conversion Nuts. I have been an active and contributing Member of this and other Bus Conversions Boards for a number of years now - I've meet many of you in person at the Arcadia Rallies - I have always tried to be FAIR and HONEST in everything I do. I believe that most people are the same way - But there are a few individuals that make you just want give up trusting people - Here's the Story--You draw your own conclusions > In May 2002 I saw the following on Ebay 1982 RTS Bus New Conversion Item number: 1830784037 I spoke to Ray on the phone, prior to bidding on his RTS. I asked questions about the amount of rust on the frame and bulkhead. I was told that there was some minor rust. I told Ray that I would close the Ebay bid with a "BUY-IT-NOW" bid of $20,500 - and send Ray a cashiers check for the $2000 deposit. Ray and I agreed that he would take the bus to ABC Bus company in N.J. - so that I could have: (a) the frame rust and repair checked (b) the bus checked out and evaluated for my drive back to Florida (c) 4.10 highway gears installed Unfortunately ABC found extensive rust and corrosion on the lower frame and bulkheads - this bus was from Cleveland Ohio. ABC sent me pictures of the damaged. ABC advised against the purchase of the bus. This is the Email they sent me about the inspection--> and I QUOTE-> "...RTS inspection. We have found the following: Severe Frame rot on supporting rails and frame. It is my opinion this bus would not pass NJDOT inspection. I also would not recommend using this vehicle on public roads based on this unsafe condition. ... .Bob Bertsch BBertsch@abc-companies.com " I was absolutely heart-sick - here was the bus I was looking for - with 80% of the work already done. I had to make the very difficult call to Ray to inform him of the findings. We BOTH AGREED that I would pay $200 for the Ebay fees and for his time and expenses for bringing the bus to ABC (about 20 miles away) and that he would return the balance of the deposit ($1800). I believe that he is an honorable man and that I will receive the check shortly. Well THAT DID NOT HAPPEN - Ray keep my deposit - THIS IS AFTER HE AGREED TO SEND ME THE BALANCE OF MY DEPOSIT $1800 THERE WAS ABSOLUTELY NO "Non-refundable deposit on his Ebay ad" I have: <>Pictures of the Rust and Corrosion <>Statements From ABC <>Copies of the Ebay Ad Pete RTS/Daytona (Message edited by Pete rts/daytona on March 29, 2007) (Message edited by Pete RTS/Daytona on March 29, 2007) | ||
| Douglas Wotring (Tekebird)
Registered Member Username: Tekebird Post Number: 142 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 71.59.75.212 Rating: N/A |
that suucks but Buyer Beware. I would never buy a bus on ebay without seeing it firsthand at best......and never would send a cashiers check as a deposit.....if you would have paypaled the deposit you would have recourse through ebay as well as your credit card compaany | ||
| Ray (Gr8njt)
Registered Member Username: Gr8njt Post Number: 2 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 68.39.161.3 Rating: |
I am Ray and placed my RTS on ebay in 2002 and was "purchased" by Pete on "BUY NOW" option. The bus was also being sold "AS-IS" In fact, with Pete's eager resourcefulness, he found out about US Coach doing the routine drivetrain maintenance of the RTS for the past 3 years prior to the eBay auction. He spoke to US Coach inquiring about the bus maintenance prior to the purchase without my knowledge and appeared happy with what he discovered. When Pete used the "BUY NOW" option, he had done his homework knowing the bus is being sold "AS-IS". When he called me, I told him of the rust at the rear bulkhead that I DO NOT have time nor desire to repair prior to the eBay auction. Same reason why I agreed to take the bus to ABC because there was nothing to hide. The "depth" of the rust is the debatable issue as Pete is probably looking for a 20y/o RTS in an almost New condition. I had the RTS insured, registered and inspected for the previous 3 years I used it in NJ with no issues. So Pete, Why don't you post here at BNO the eBay AD that shows the "Buy Now Option" you took advantage of which instantly ended the auction and cost me the potential sale? Also post the item description indicating the sale "As-Is" with no implied warranty. If you can show anywhere in the Ad that says I will return the non-refundable deposit for any reason the buyer changes their mind after ending the auction with a "BUY NOW" option, then you have a leg to stand on. So please, if you ask people to draw conclusions, tell the complete story. | ||
| Ray (Gr8njt)
Registered Member Username: Gr8njt Post Number: 3 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 68.39.161.3 Rating: N/A |
Here's the old website of the RTS and see for yourselves the bus in question: www.rtsconversion.homestead.com/page5.html You can go up/down on the pages if you like. Don't worry, I am not selling anything nor do I have the desire to encounter certain buyers. The website is just a memory lane album. | ||
| Douglas Tappan (Dougthebonifiedbusnut)
Registered Member Username: Dougthebonifiedbusnut Post Number: 35 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 75.69.44.219 Rating: N/A |
Hey Ray, There are Good Guys and there are "Richard Craniums" Pete is one of the best, and most honest people on this forum. Take your AS IS and no implied warranty and insert them, give him his damn money back!( sorry but 2d's really pissed me off) | ||
| Ray (Gr8njt)
Registered Member Username: Gr8njt Post Number: 4 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 68.39.161.3 Rating: |
Hey Doug, Your eloquence with words is amazing and I apologize for "pissing" you off but I have to respond when Pete started such a post. However, your satisfactory personal experience with Pete was NOT a factor in the agreement of the sale he entered into when he wanted to purchase the bus on eBay. I am not trying to paint Pete at any other light other than his failure to abide by the agreement of sale which was never consumated because he reneged out of the "eBay contract of Sale". The rust issue was NOT hidden from his knowledge. He has admitted of his awareness of the bulkhead rust because we've discussed it over the phone when I informed him I have no time nor interest to fix the bulkhead but someone knowledgeable in welding could probably do it themselves. | ||
| steve gaines (Kysteve)
Registered Member Username: Kysteve Post Number: 83 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 74.140.165.225 Rating: N/A |
Ray/Pete I have never spoke with or met either of you, but in reading the thread here I have some questions. Would one or both of you post the original ebay ad? Ray you make no statement of the new arraingement of the 1800.00 in any of your post, why not? When did this take place in the transaction? Pete says in his post and I quote "we both agreed". Is this true? I for one believe there is more to this story than Im reading. Both of you please fill in the blanks. Thanks for helping me to learn who to trust in the future.......Steve | ||
| Pete/RTS Daytona (Pete_rtsdaytona)
Registered Member Username: Pete_rtsdaytona Post Number: 322 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 72.40.12.158 Rating: N/A |
Ray you wrote--> "I told him of the rust at the rear bulkhead that I DO NOT have time nor desire to repair prior to the eBay auction." Ray That is an NOT TRUE - what you told me was that the RUST ISSUES were repaired and that you were selling the RTS because you purchased an MCI and had no need for 2 buses When you AGREED over the phone (prior to my Ebay Bid) to have the bus inspected at ABC bus before my the Final Payment- the condition of the "as is sale" changed - This is the information I receive from a lawyer about this incident With regards to your refusal to refund a reasonable amount of the $2000 deposit made to you for the purchase of the GMC/RTS Motorhome, I have obtained legal guidance through research of New Jersey state law and Contract law. In accordance with contract law, an enforceable contract is created in an auction type transaction when the “gavel falls.” E-bay transactions are considered to be auction type transactions. Once I gave my bid and the bidding closed, an enforceable contract was created to purchase the GMC/RTS. In addition, I understand the law of contracts does not allow parol evidence to prove written or oral modifications contrary to the existing contract. However, an exception exists when an oral modification to the contract has been partially performed by a contracting party. Once performance has started, the party who partially performed is estopped from denying an oral modification to the contract exists. Here, I requested the GMC/RTS be inspected by ABC Bus Company. You agreed to the inspection and performed the modification by taking the GMC/RTS to ABC Bus Company. If the GMC… passed the inspection, I would complete the purchase. However, the GMC did not pass the inspection, which was the condition of the oral modification. Because you partially performed the oral modification, you are estopped from denying the existence of the modification. In addition, because part performance was completed by you the oral modification would be enforceable. With regards to the actual contract, the GMC… was represented in your E-bay account to be ready for its intended use. Therefore, a condition of the contract was that the GMC be suitable for its intended purpose. The intended purpose of the GMC is for mobile transportation on the roadways of America. Because the inspection proved the GMC… not roadworthy, a condition of the contract was not met and therefore, the contract is void. Based on a condition not met by you the seller, I called to void the contract. Because the contract is void, both parties must be made whole. I agreed to allow the cost of your time and expense of the inspection to be deducted from my $2000 deposit. If you would deduct the reasonable amount required to make you whole and send me the balance, both parties would be made whole and there would be no need to pursue this matter in more formal proceedings. Also Ray - why don't you tell the people that a short time later you listed the RTS for sale again on EBAY - with the bidders identity hidden so that bidders could not be warned about the dangerous (as stated by ABC Bus) condition of the RTS Pete RTS Daytona (Message edited by pete RTS/Daytona on March 29, 2007) | ||
| Bob Ayers (Califbob)
Registered Member Username: Califbob Post Number: 31 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 4.243.221.37 Rating: N/A |
Hey Ray why the hell don't you be a man and give him his money. I hope E Bay gets wind of your underhandness by not revealing the condition of the bus. If it were me that got screwed I would spend the money for a airline tiket and confront you face to face. I bought a Prevost on EBay and it was a very smoothe deal. If I knew of you first I may not have followed through on the deal.It's people like you that makes all of us leary about doing business on line | ||
| Gary LaBombard (Garylee)
Registered Member Username: Garylee Post Number: 126 Registered: 3-2004 Posted From: 64.12.116.203 Rating: N/A |
Pete, I have not been posting lately on any bb'd but your a fine fellow and I wanted to take the time to let you know I appreciate you sharing this (ebay) experience with us all and hope it also sends a message to "Newbie's" or anyhone looking for another bus conversion and wanting to get a good deal on ebay or anyplace on the internet. I am sorry this has happened to you and that the right thing here is not being done but not to get into it personally I want you to know I support you. A lot of good will come out of this information Pete, "Let the buyer beware" could not be any clearer to those wishing to do business on ebay concerning something that needs to pass a professional inspection to be roadworthy & safe before the final deal can be completed. This must be a must for anyone buying on ebay I should hope, preferably a (DOT) type inspection. If a bus cannot pass inspection, all money except the cost of transporting to inspection and the inspection cost I would believe should be refunded from the downpayment. If the newbie like me 5 years ago now buys without inspection then he is on his own. I don't mind sharing my mistakes to help others not to fall in the pitfall of the same thing and with your experience on ebay I hope will make everyone think before leaping on that "Great" deal. Good Luck Pete, thanks again for sharing. Gary | ||
| Laryn Christley (Barn_owl)
Registered Member Username: Barn_owl Post Number: 17 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 70.110.2.160 Rating: N/A |
I think that any purchase on ebay that involves something like a bus should have a clause allowing for refusal upon inspection, refund minus listing fees. As a seller I would want only the best of feelings and a happy buyer. It takes a lot of trust and faith for a buyer to lay out that kind of money for something that has so many unknown variables. One time I sent a deposit for a bus that was advertised in Bus Conversion Magazine, and although the owner didn’t intentionally misrepresent the bus, he sure used rose colored glasses to describe it (He truly thought it was great). But, he was very nice about that fact that after I had it inspected, it was not what I wanted. My deposit was returned minus some paypal fees and we parted with good feelings. Ray, if what is stated above is true, then I don’t think the $1800 was worth having your name smeared. You still sold the bus so your loss could have only been relatively small if any. I tend to believe the Busnut community lives to a higher standard than the norm. Figure out what it is going to take to make it right between the two parties and do it. Then put it behind you. | ||
| Doyle Gaither (Texasborderdude)
Registered Member Username: Texasborderdude Post Number: 30 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 24.92.126.13 Rating: N/A |
Seems to me that Ray is hanging his hat on "If you can show anywhere in the Ad that says I will return the non-refundable deposit for any reason the buyer changes their mind after ending the auction with a "BUY NOW" option, then you have a leg to stand on...." and does not dispute the agreement between the parties was to accept the bus back (ergo why not seek specific enforcement of the contract???) Sooooo why not refund the reduced deposit? Ray... the facts don't seem to be on your side. FWIW IMHO ETC. dg | ||
| Christy Hicks (Christyhicks)
Registered Member Username: Christyhicks Post Number: 25 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 65.77.66.1 Rating: |
Ok, we've purchased quite a few items on Ebay. . .a motorhome, three busses (one converted), my Durango, numerous work vans and trucks, etc., so I feel like it would be acceptable to make a few comments from our experience. When you sell on Ebay, you should disclose any known defects on the vehicle, you should state in your auction that you are selliing "as is", and you should never agree to any "terms" that allow a buyer to back out, excepting that the buyer finds you have misrepresented the item. You are selling on Ebay, which means you are taking bottom dollar for your item. If you represent it honestly, your buyer will likely still purchase the item, but if you give them an "out", it is likely that "buyer's remorse" will set in and the buyer will use this "out" to back out of the sale, and then you've got to resell the item, and you've possibly lost a legitimate buyer, either to another competing item or to the perception that there was something wrong with yours. Buyers: you should NEVER purchase an expensive item on Ebay without inspecting it before either bidding, or paying a large deposit or the total. If you can not inspect it yourself, and can not make arrangements to have someone inspect it BEFORE the completion of the sale, don't bid. It's that simple. Ebay is not a dealership, so you don't get to negotiate, and you are getting your item for bottom dollar, so don't expect it to be like Wal-mart where you can return it if you don't like it. You can't have it both ways. . . a cheap, cheap price and the opportunity to pick and choose after the sale. Having said this, I have to state that this is clearly a dispute that should have been kept between the two parties involved, as no one here was present during the conversations and there is dispute about what was said and agreed upon. It is the responsibility of both parties to discuss this privately and if the agreement was made as described, it is obvious that the seller should return the excess deposit. He learned an expensive lesson on selling on Ebay. So did the buyer. Both were wrong. Non-paying bidders and dishonest sellers, (along with the scammers and fraud guys) are in the process of trying to ruin Ebay for those of us who appreciate the opportunity to choose from a huge supply of items at great prices. Less someone think that I am taking the sellers side because I sell on Ebay, I'd like to point out that I've only sold two items on Ebay, but I've purchased 100's, from $5 to $35,000. We flew to Las Vegas once to look at a bus before the sale, and then flew back when it was clear that it was misrepresented and was NOTHING like the pics and description indicated. That was our responsibility. . .to inspect BEFORE we bid, not after. Sure, it was costly, but it was cheaper than buying a mistake. Christy Hicks | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 271 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.105.59 Rating: N/A |
"you don't get to negotiate, and you are getting your item for bottom dollar" I always found it amusing, to hear people say they "won" the item on Ebay... "Won"? Won what? They just paid more than anyone else thought it was worth! When you buy at auction, you don't negotiate to pay "bottom dollar", you negotiate to pay top dollar. There can be great deals to be found at any auction (We're antique/collectible dealers, and have bought heavily at auctions, but only at "live" auctions, never at a "sight unseen" auction). We've always taken note, that a "general merchandise" auction is often the best way for an individual (or company) to get rid of an item that is too weak for normal sale. Car dealers that don't want to "stick" a customer with a sick car, send it to "the auction". Antique dealers will send damaged or otherwise inferior items to "the auction". But at a live auction, at least you get a chance to inspect the item in advance of the sale; you have an advantage. However....... Pete didn't buy "at auction", Pete bought the item at the "buy it now" price. That's akin to going into a shop and buying it directly from the shop. Pete also made an arrangement to have the item inspected while under deposit, prior to sale. The sheer nature of leaving a "deposit" insinuates both the item and deposit are "returnable" (less lost expenses, or "restocking" fees). Pete's entitled to a refund, and Ray oughta' be a man about it, and return what's rightfully due. | ||
| Christy Hicks (Christyhicks)
Registered Member Username: Christyhicks Post Number: 26 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 65.77.66.1 Rating: N/A |
I think you're wrong about vehicles and items sold on Ebay and at auction. If it were true that we pay "top dollar" for an item, (the generally accepted definition of top dollar being the most someone would EVER pay for an item) then it would carry on that we could buy that item for less in a non-auction situation. Actually,at auction, we are simply paying more than anyone else participating in that specific auction is willing to pay. That can be a big difference. . .I've been to many an auction where we got unbelieveable deals, and I've been to many where I didn't buy a thing. If the vehicles always sold for "top dollar", then I don't know why so many car dealers attend and purchase vehicles at auctions, since they wouldn't be able to make the profit they do at re-selling those vehicles for more money. Also, there are many reasons people auction items: bankruptcy, closing out an estate, the expense and time involved in selling a vehicle (talk to banks and car dealers, most never even look at a re-possessed or trade-in vehicle, they just "dispose of it at auction" because it's not worth their time to mess with it). Many times, estates are closed this way to avoid accusations of favoritism or hard feelings, and to meet legal requirements. My parents would liked to have given me a bunch of their stuff when they went full-timing, but I encouraged them to sell everything at auction and let me buy what I wanted, so that my two brothers could never feel that they favored me over them. It was the fair way to handle it, and I kept many special items in the family this way. Also, people are starting to realize that if you advertise something locally, you are only going to reach a specifc audience in a specific area, but if you list it on Ebay, you can reach a huge audience and although you may also facer stiffer and more competition, you have more buyers available too. Sure, you can dump a vehicle or something at an auction, but I can assure you, of the many, many vehicles we've purchased at live auctions and on Ebay, I've yet to feel like I got "took". As for the "Buy it Now" feature, you misunderstand how that works. It is NOT like going to a store and buying an item, it is simply saying, "I want to end the auction and any chance of someone bidding more than the "Buy it Now" price, which is what I am willing to pay, so I am making a contract with the seller to end his sale early and sell the item to me for that price." This is explained very clearly, by Ebay, when you choose that button. This ends the seller's chance of getting more for the item than the "Buy it Now" price, and makes him responsible for the seller's fees and listing fees for the item. As for any verbal agreement made before the use of the "Buy it Now" feature, well, again, as I stated earlier, we were not party to those conversations and therefore can not judge what was or was not said, or what should or should not be done. This is why I try to do any discussion with a seller through the e-mail, so I can read back what he wrote and have a written exchange to make sure there were no misunderstandings. When a seller "dodges" specific questions, especially if he does it twice, well, then I have my answer. Having said this, I would still suggest that Ray would be smart to return anything above his actual expenses and learn from this experience. Keeping the excess money could very well be "legal", but it doesn't make it "right", and sometimes, even being right, doesn't make it "right". If he does so, IMHO, I think that Pete should then step up to the plate and publicly acknowledge that this was indeed a misunderstanding and that they have agreed as such, and that Pete did refund his money,the whole incident is put behind them and that they fully plan to be cordial to each other in the future. Christy Hicks | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 118 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.80.150 Rating: N/A |
It sure sounds to me like the seller agreed to the bus company's inspection findings? I don't want to jump on the prospective buyer on his thread either, but there is an old saying about "things that sound too good to be true usually are." Now look at a post concerning a "1970 Eagle Entertainer," about a month ago... Somebody was going to buy this over the phone, SIGHT UNSEEN! Fortunately the first two posters told him to get it checked out before buying, and I hope he did! The HVAC trade calls this an "ambient temp. IQ." Sorry, George | ||
| Doyle Gaither (Texasborderdude)
Registered Member Username: Texasborderdude Post Number: 31 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 24.92.126.13 Rating: N/A |
No, no, no... it's just this simple. If (after all the foreplay) Ray agreed to give the deposit back except for the $200 and failed to do so... Ray is wrong. If those aren't the actual facts... all this is conjecture anyway. | ||
| Douglas Wotring (Tekebird)
Registered Member Username: Tekebird Post Number: 143 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 71.59.75.212 Rating: N/A |
Pete, I just re read your original post.......why are you bringing this up almost 5 years after the fact. although the bus may have been misrepresented, it is your responsability to get the thing checked prior to giving any monies. it is also not smart to give any monies where you have no recourse ( cashiers check), you may as well Wired money to some third world seller. If you would have paid via paypal on the deposit you would have your money back. Not being invloved with any communications nobdy here can say anything but what YOU should have done..... Now the seller might be a dirtbag but nobody here knows that..... As when buying anything. BUYER BEWARE! As fro the seller, if he has a concious he would return the money, all of it as he can get all his listing fees returned via Ebay. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 272 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.105.158 Rating: N/A |
Kristy - I'll stand by what I originally said: "I always found it amusing, to hear people say they "won" the item on Ebay... "Won"? Won what? They just paid more than anyone else thought it was worth! When you buy at auction, you don't negotiate to pay "bottom dollar", you negotiate to pay top dollar. " (Top, being more than anyone else felt it is worth) Doyle - Pete summed it up: "This is the Email they sent me about the inspection--> and I QUOTE-> "...RTS inspection. We have found the following: Severe Frame rot on supporting rails and frame. It is my opinion this bus would not pass NJDOT inspection. I also would not recommend using this vehicle on public roads based on this unsafe condition. ... .Bob Bertsch BBertsch@abc-companies.com " I was absolutely heart-sick - here was the bus I was looking for - with 80% of the work already done. I had to make the very difficult call to Ray to inform him of the findings. We BOTH AGREED that I would pay $200 for the Ebay fees and for his time and expenses for bringing the bus to ABC (about 20 miles away) and that he would return the balance of the deposit ($1800). I believe that he is an honorable man and that I will receive the check shortly. Well THAT DID NOT HAPPEN - Ray keep my deposit - THIS IS AFTER HE AGREED TO SEND ME THE BALANCE OF MY DEPOSIT $1800 THERE WAS ABSOLUTELY NO "Non-refundable deposit on his Ebay ad" " Ray said: "I agreed to take the bus to ABC because there was nothing to hide. The "depth" of the rust is the debatable issue as Pete is probably looking for a 20y/o RTS in an almost New condition. " Naww, Ray..... I know Pete. I think all he wanted is a bus he can actually drive home.... not one that was deemed by ABC as: "not recommend using this vehicle on public roads based on this unsafe condition. ... " Fair's fair, Ray... You may (or may not) have a fragment of law on your side due to some undocumented verbiage, but it ain't fair and you damned well know it. | ||
| H3-40 (Ace)
Registered Member Username: Ace Post Number: 493 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 70.221.26.213 Rating: N/A |
OK from what I can see from the listed web site and it isn't all that much, the RTS looks to be a pretty sweet coach and has a LOT of work completed. True it only shows the interior and none of the mechanical or structural items, for 20K it still looked as though it would have been worth the money! At least it would have made me do a personal look at any cost. Not being in on the original deal, I cannot and will not pick a side as to who is right and who is wrong. BUT, IMHO, it appears both parties are at some fault due to the way it was listed on Ebay and potentially purchased. Again, I don't know the facts and cannot judge whether one is right over the other! That's MY 2 cents and I'm sticking to it! | ||
| Chris In Billings, MT (Delzy_rstii_03)
Registered Member Username: Delzy_rstii_03 Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 69.144.155.158 Rating: N/A |
I just sold my first and only RTS on ebay here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=120085005665&ssPageName=STRK:MESO: IT&ih=002 My transaction went smoothly and the buyers were great. I do not know if the bulkhead was rusty or not. I do know that the unit was in service and I spoke to the maintenance mechanic that worked on the bus and he never suggested any damage of that sort. Anyway, I accepted a $500 deposit on paypal and the buyers rented a car and drove over 1000 miles to pick up their bus from me. Had they disliked it when they showed up, I would have likely refunded $250 of their deposit. You can see by my feedback that I take care of my customers but that does not mean I let them walk all over me either. I am not suggesting Pete did this. I am just saying that "reasonable" as alluded to above is a fair standard. I think the seller should have refunded all but maybe $300 of the deposit. After all, the seller seemingly learned that he had an unroadable lemon and spent the time dropping off and picking up and negotiating and whatever else. I'm sure the seller was quite disappointed, but I don't see anywhere what the cost of a reasonable repair or if it was repairable either. Perhaps that could have been part of the settlement and the transaction still consumated. I also believe that on a $20k purchase, one can afford the expense to contract a local inspection before bidding or buying. This would have saved a lot of expense and problems. Pete has helped me alot in the past and I think he's helped plenty of others more than me. He seems reasonable. I don't know the seller either, but as I said earlier I think there were lots of different ways to come to a positive outcome for both parties involved. Being a stickler for the "non-refundable" deposit of $2k would only be appropriate if Pete was a jerk (which I'm sure he wasn't). BTW, my buyers headed home into that big midwestern snowstorm about a month ago and I've never heard tale of them since. I occasionally wonder if they made it back to Wisconsin, but not enough to call them as I will respect their privacy (and don't want to feel guilty if the bus went sour on them). Don't forget the motto of eBay Caveat Emptor. (Message edited by delzy_rstii_03 on March 30, 2007) | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 304 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 65.23.106.193 Rating: N/A |
Ebay is like everything else. It is up to the individuals to choose how they will respond. (Like the posting here, there are some that flame others & then whine about getting the flash back. Then there are those that add class & dignity to a thread with a simple post.) I've had great luck on ebay. When I hit "buy it now" for my bus, the seller asked me to come SEE IT FOR MYSELF before I paid him ANYTHING! He felt his reputation was worth more than hard feelings from a misunderstanding & this was for over $7000. I have dealt with sellers that if the add was questioned as misleading, they immediately gave a full refund. Those are the kind of people I prefer to deal with - the ones that want to work together to avoid misunderstandings. However there are loosers, jerks, & bottomfeeders trolling ebay. I got my only neg feedback (a $4 item) because I questioned ommissions in the description & the idealized photo that did not represent the item fairly. I gotta side with Christy on this in that you are exposed to the full spectrum on ebay & you need to act accordingly. The ebay price is not top dollar, rather it is one bid above the highest bidding looser. I've gotten lots of things simply because no one else was bidding that week. Other times, everyone is bidding against me & I'm left out. | ||
| sylverstone (Sylverstone_pd4501864)
Registered Member Username: Sylverstone_pd4501864 Post Number: 265 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 71.112.49.23 Rating: N/A |
"If you would have paid via paypal on the deposit you would have your money back." talk about rose colored glasses. someone used my paypal account, from germany, to buy xbox live cards from a place in the states, through their website for england. this required converting my money into english pounds first mind you. as there was only 50 bucks in the account, it pulled the other 425 out of my bank account. paypal claimed that i made the purchase and would not refund my money or do anything about it. as i was on a road trip through arizona at the time, and i don't even own an xbox, i'm not sure how they came to that conclusion. additionally, i would have to sue them to get any information they had, before i could pursue it legally. the only saving grace here was that i got to the shipper before they shipped the items, and managed to get a refund. ... but anyone who assumes paypal gives a rip about them as a customer is in for a rude surprise. oh, and Ray (Gr8njt), i really truly hope you never break down in the middle of nowhere, cause i'm pretty sure that most of the busnut community is going to charge you 1800 bucks to borrow a cell phone, because they legally can. -dd | ||
| Christy Hicks (Christyhicks)
Registered Member Username: Christyhicks Post Number: 27 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 65.77.66.1 Rating: |
Oh, Crap, I didn't realize we were discussing something that happened 4 or 5 years ago! Guess I should have read that closer! This should have been done and over years ago. . . either the lawyer should have advised Pete to sue in small claims court, or he should have said Pete didn't have a leg on which to stand. Ray should realize by now that even if he felt justified in keeping the entire deposit, it probably wasn't worth it in the long run, as people obviously take sides, based on the information they receive (and their perceptions of "what must have happened", and his reputation has definately suffered because of this story. <talk> You're exactly correct about not trusting PayPal. . . they can ONLY refund your money if the seller has money in their account, which, if they're going to rip you off. . .they won't. I NEVER give my business account # to PayPal, Ebay, etc., and our personal account never has enough money in it to really "hurt" us if someone got into it. Mostly, we use one credit card when buying anything personal online and another when buying any business item. I also monitor both my business and my personal accounts online, daily, "just to be safe". Every time we write a check, we hand out our name, address, and checking acount number, and every time we allow anyone, ANYONE, to withdraw money out of our account (such as a "check by phone" type authorization), we have effectively given them access to our account any time they chose. You can NOT pull back authorization once you've given it, so NEVER, EVER allow a credit card company (or anyone else) withdraw money out of your account that way, unless you want to take a chance on someone hacking their data and doing it again. It's pretty scary when you visit with your bank and find out how really easy it is for someone to commit fraud in this manner. Trust me, it literally scared the crap out of me to realize this. Well, this dead horse is beginning to smell pretty ripe, and I've bored everyone completely with my opinion, such as it is, so my parting words are as such: If you buy on Ebay, use due diligence, look before you leap, don't buy it unless you're sure you want it, get everything you can in writing, check your seller's feedback, and remember the old adage, if it sounds to good to be true, it probably is. If you can't take a chance on buying something "as is", don't bid at any type of auction. If you don't think it's a "heck of a deal", don't bid. If you aren't able to inspect a large item yourself, an auction, (Ebay or otherwise), is really not the best market for you. You need to buy from someone where you can take time to inspect the item, or have it inspected, and then negotiate based on those findings. An auction is just not the right venue for many people, and when it's not a good fit, well, that just mucks it up for all the buyers and sellers. Christy Hicks | ||
| Cameron Jones (Crazy71)
Registered Member Username: Crazy71 Post Number: 48 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 75.179.153.89 Rating: N/A |
I hate ebay for vehicles....I defeats the purpose of an auction. In a real (live) auction, you usually get great deals. Nobody there is there to pay going rate. They all want a deal so whoever has high bid still usually get a good deal. You are limited to those present. Ebay screwed this all up... Now you are fighting with potentially unlimited people that might want the vehice... People get in the "another hundred bucks won't hurt" mentality and these vehicles sell for too much. The way a used vehicle is SUPPOSED to be sold is.... the seller lists it for a higher price than he will actually take. This allows room for negotiation...and someone might just pay the asking price and the seller is all the happier. Ebay has allowed sellers to get MORE than they would if they would have sold it the normal way I described. Great if you are the seller...crumby if you are the buyer.. I stay away from ebay for vehicles all I can.... I sicken me to find something I want that is on ebay.. Not that I have not purchased vehicles on ebay...I just think it is bass ackwards. I have gotten much better bargains on vehicles from sellers that came down on price to get some cash in hand than ebay will ever do. | ||
| Ray (Gr8njt)
Registered Member Username: Gr8njt Post Number: 5 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 68.39.161.3 Rating: |
This will be my last post on this thread as it seems fruitless for me to argue. When Pete first called me about the bus, he asked me to take the listing off eBay because "he wants it" (Huh?). I told him I can not do that for anybody. I told him the auction has to go its normal course. During this conversation, he asked why I was selling the RTS and I told him that I just bought an MCI9 because I detest the fact that the RTS has no luggage compartments and no highway gears. I told him that nothing has been done to the motor, tranny or chassis and cannot guaranty their condition because I am not a mechanic by trade. In fact told him the bus is from Cleveland and that being from the northern state, there's rust on the rear bulkhead that I do not intend to fix nor repair. That's how he knew there was rust without seeing the bus prior to the ABC trip. (please look again at his first post) I told him the only work I did was 80% completed interior of the bus and he wanted to see more pictures so I directed him to the "website" of the RTS. Pete is no dummy. He is smart and he knows what he was doing, because at this point, he tells me that he could stop the auction himself by going for the "Buy Now" option. I told him that's fine and told him that I will sell the bus to the highest bidder regardless of the bid price if the "buy now" option is not used as I do not want to keep 2 buses for long. Pete did his homework, beacuse called me the following day saying he had spoken to someone at US Coach (without my knowledge nor solicitation) about my bus and he just stopped the auction by clicking on the "Buy Now" option. At this time do you see any new agreement? NO!! I told him that's fine with me if that is what he really wants to do. The 3rd phone call from Pete was later in the day to let me know that the non-refundable deposit is on it's way to me and Pete requested if I could take the bus to ABC to have the highway gears installed (read his first post again please)for his trip to Florida. I agreed to do this for him and at no time did we have any "contingency" agreement in reference to this ABC trip. He calls me the next morning asking for his deposit back and offers $200 for my lost time and effort. Huh? I told him the bus was his and that if he fails to come up with the balance of the sale, he will lose his non refundable deposit because he stopped an ongoing auction for his benefit. It's pretty straightforward. If Pete thinks he is right, he should have done something 5 years ago. For everyone that knows Pete, he is a smart fella. He's heen around the block a few times however things didn't turn out the way he wanted to manipulate the system BTW, I will make sure to keep my cellphone fully charged because if I pay another busnut $1800 to make a call, I know people would laugh when I cry "not fair" after the fact. In this "cellphone" scenario, guess who everyone will call a dummy? | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 273 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.105.65 Rating: |
Ray - Two grand is a lot of money. If it were a couple hundred, I'd agree that the loss of deposit may be warranted. Keeping the entire $2k deposit is not only unfair, it's unheard of in any business transaction I know of. I sincerely doubt any court would've found in your favor.... If you're not ashamed of yourself, you oughts' be. | ||
| Chris In Billings, MT (Delzy_rstii_03)
Registered Member Username: Delzy_rstii_03 Post Number: 7 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 69.144.155.158 Rating: N/A |
It's one thing when a seller thinks a buyer is scamming them. It's quite another when a seller takes advantage because he's holding the cards ($2k in this case). It sound to me that Ray didn't have the money to give back and is too proud or stubborn to admit it. Where is the bus now? | ||
| Pete/RTS Daytona (Pete_rtsdaytona)
Registered Member Username: Pete_rtsdaytona Post Number: 323 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 72.40.12.158 Rating: |
Hopefully this will be my last post about this incident . Let me set the record straight: When we talked on the phone about the condition of the RTS - The only thing you said was the RTS had some "RUST ISSUES" but you had them REPAIRED. The was NO MENTION of this, as you said in your prior post, "... rust at the rear bulkhead that I DO NOT have time nor desire to repair ...". Like you said yourself "Pete is no dummy" - If you had said there was repair work needed - I certainly would have had concerns. After the bus was inspected by ABC - we spoke on the phone about the problem - I had the feeling that you genuinely were unaware of "dangerous Condition" of the frame. You told me that you had not even cashed the Cashiers check yet - I believe that you would be true to your word about sending the remainder of the deposit back to me - I should have just put a stop on the check. There was NEVER any conversation about as you said in a prior post, "....I told him the bus was his and that if he fails to come up with the balance of the sale, he will lose his non refundable deposit because he stopped an ongoing auction for his benefit". I fact NO PLACE on your Ebay ad does it say "NON-REFUNDABLE DEPOSIT". I actually waited a week for the check to arrive - you didn't even have the decency to call me a tell me that you had decided to KEEP the entire deposit. The fact that you never left me an EBAY negative comment speaks for itself. My Ebay rating is still 100% and 170+ Your next attempt to sell the RTS on Ebay did have those NON-REFUNDABLE words in it. - Tell us why you chose not to mention any information about the dangerous condition noted by ABC Bus inspection. Tell us why , with your second Ebay ad, you chose to keep the bidders identity private - thus eliminating the possibility for anyone to warn potential bidders about the condition of the RTS. Additionally your RTS was CLEARLY "not as described" in your ad or on the phone. In ABC BUS's words - "...I also would not recommend using this vehicle on public roads based on this unsafe condition..." - This, in itself, would have been ground to VOID THE EBAY SALE. Pete RTS./Daytona (Message edited by pete rts/daytona on March 30, 2007) | ||
| gary throneberry (Garhawk)
Registered Member Username: Garhawk Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 72.156.222.253 Rating: N/A |
been a businessman for fifty years. entered into more contracts than will come to mind. some commercial, some corporate, and some private. each have similar but distinctly different rules. pete and ray entered into a private contract. here is the result as it stands today. the last agreement made tops all others. from what has been reported, there is no other accord since ray agreed to refund the $2,000 to pete (less the inspection, e-bay fees, etc.) no later agreement or amendment has been put forth. do the arithmetic ray, then send pete his money. gary t'berry | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 159 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 71.125.61.116 Rating: N/A |
what did US Coach tell Pete that made him want to give the generous deposit and stop the auction? | ||
| Simon Ayriss (Design_dog)
Registered Member Username: Design_dog Post Number: 11 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 69.238.99.69 Rating: N/A |
I'm wondering, just out of curiosity, where is this alledged RTS that was up on ebay now?? I would assume that it got "rerun" on ebay a second time, or no? When it did sell, either on ebay or otherwise, what was the closing cost? Do you still own the bus, parked in the same driveway now? What I am not getting is, I am wondering; Do you think that you are the only one who has put up a bus for sale on ebay and the deal hasn't gone through? I see it all the time. It's common. Many buses go up for sale on ebay and the bidder does not come through on the sale. Especially since it's a high priced item. A common problem is paperwork issues. Rust is a major issue. For any bus buyer it is one of the first questions or issues. It is not unknown that rust is a factor on quality grade and pricing on a bus. I understand about losing money, timing, and losing a sale. I also understand that if I am spending over $10k on a bus I want to make sure I want to own it. But honestly. $1800 is a steep penalty after you said you would refund the deposit. No matter what the circumstances even with Buy Now, after the sale did not go through by choice, keeping $1800 is not justifiable. Listing fees and a couple hundred bucks for loss is. I am wondering also if there were clear photos of this alledged rust damage on the ebay ad? Normally whatever "faults" there are on a sale item, people have a clear tendacy to point them out, simply to avoid this exact problem. Not a good idea to disclose those details via phone after the sale. What ever happened to the bus? | ||
| Tim Hoskinson (Tdh37514151)
Registered Member Username: Tdh37514151 Post Number: 218 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 4.252.72.239 Rating: N/A |
I usually don't post on subjects like this but in this case I do have some experince.I too fell for a buy it now on e bay with my inexperinced first bus purchase. First of all buy it now simply means I will sell the item if you give me more than I feel its really worth. Second and very important is if the seller tells you something over the phone that in anyway varies the rules of the auction ask them to e mail that statement to you through e bay messages. This gives you a printed word to hold the seller to his word. A promise over the phone that no one else hears and that you don't have a written record of is completely useless. If the seller will not print the promise the promise will NOT materialize. Its really hard enough to hold some one to what they put in print let alone what they say over the phone. I too was told I would get my deposit back less the e bay fees but never did. It was not as much as what was lost here and I think of it as a lesson in dealing with people I am not familiar with. Most folks I know would feel bad about the deal not working out and would feel guilty about keeping the full deposit. I don't know either of these people but I will say I find it interesting that the seller thought his bus would pass the inspection. However when it did not he felt it was ok to keep the deposit. It would apear on one hand that he was honest enough to have the bus inspected but then when he realized that he may loose some value in the bus by the outcome of the inspection that he hopes to regain that value by keeping the deposit.I am not a lawyer nor would I want to be so I don't know how the law looks at this situation. It is some what questionable when looking at it from the stand point of integrity. At this point it would be my opinion that the seller is suprised that the bus has problems but now is looking for a way to keep him self from loosing money on a bad deal of his own. Its really up to the individual is the financial loss on the bus of greater value to you or the gain of getting along with others. To some money is the most importand of all things In life. To others not so much. If I were the seller I my self would give back the deposit. If I were the buyer I would keep in mind that when purchasing a car ,truck ,bus or any larg value item the worst way to do it is in a time limited situation such as e bay auctions. Buying on e bay is ok if you look at the purchase as a can loose situation. Then if it turns out good GREAT!. If it turns out bad its a lesson in learning you don't have to bid. Find the item some where else if the risk is to big for you to comfortably handel. Not rules to live by just how I see it and I don't see that well. Best of luck to both parties. Tim | ||
| Donn Reeves (Donnreeves)
Registered Member Username: Donnreeves Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 69.115.76.219 Rating: |
I've known Pete for several years. He is a good person and I count him as a friend.I also have met Ray and discused this matter with him just after it happened.The first time I talked to Pete. he was about to purchase Ray's RTS, and called for advise. I advised him to have it checked for rust, as I'd had some problems with mine. That is one of the reasons that Pete insisted on an inspection. After the deal fell through the story Pete told me then is the same as he is telling now. Ray impressed me as the type of converter who was very into the conversion, but not too worried about the mechanical.He told me he had it serviced at Luke's, and that they had found some rust, but had repaired it.So in his mind the rust was no longer a issue.He felt that Pete had a case of "Buyer's remorse" and was looking for a way out.That was not the case.Pete wanted that bus very badly.Enough to pay more than it was probably worth. So,we have a reputable company telling Ray {by his account}that the rust is repaired, and another reputable company telling Pete that it is unsafe to drive {documented}.Because of mine and other RTS owner's experiances, Pete backed off as he should have.Why, if the sale was final, did Ray allow an inspection? It seems to me that the reason for the inpection was to see if it was as represented,and it wasn't. Ray's argument to me for keeping the deposit was that he had to sell it for less tha Pete agreed to pay.That argument does't fly for several reasons.Ray I know you think you were wronged, but as you can see from reading these posts, most of us don't agree. Personally, I would never try to force someone to buy something they didn't want, and have always returned deposits. Thankfully most of us feel that way. | ||
| Jim Huston (Jimh)
Registered Member Username: Jimh Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.22 Rating: N/A |
The only correct way to have handle this is very simple. An e mail exchange BEFORE the deal was done as to terms of inspection and what happens to the deposit after. A very simple exchange of e mails would take the "he said, he said" thing out of it AND would have caused a WRITTEN contract or proof of a verbal one to take place. %5 years later??? This is stupid! JimH Just my way -- your mileage may vary | ||
| mark (Coolbus)
Registered Member Username: Coolbus Post Number: 36 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 71.54.203.254 Rating: N/A |
ebay is a great place to SELL anything. Millions of potential buyers, some of which will be very willing to pay much more than a fair price if found elsewhere. I have bid on hundreds of items, but not wanting to pay more than a fair price, let the item go on to the unfortunate individual who agreed to pay more than anybody else would. I've seen people literally spend more on ebay for an item that could be purchased brand new for less money from a reputable company with a no hassle return policy. I have made a couple good "purchases" on ebay, but usually its just more of a convenience factor for me to make the purchase. (never WON anything)! | ||
| Dale Houston (Songman)
Registered Member Username: Songman Post Number: 8 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 70.92.99.202 Rating: |
Ray keeps saying that Pete sent him the 'non-refundable deposit'. Was it stated in the auction that the deposit was non-refundable? Of course we will never know since this all happened many years ago and the auction is gone. If it said non-refundable then it is non-refundable UNLESS the item has been grossly misrepresented in the ad. At this point it seems that whether or not the ad said the deposit was non-refundable is moot. The bus was obviously grossly misrepresented as evidenced by the ABC report. This is clearly covered in eBay selling standards and Pete is entitled to his deposit back. The fact that there was a negotiation where Pete agreed to pay $200 for the inspection and time and Ray agreed to refund $1800 is yet another reason Pete should get his refund. Further, Ray first says "I told him of the rust at the rear bulkhead that I DO NOT have time nor desire to repair prior to the eBay auction". Later he comes back with "I told him that nothing has been done to the motor, tranny or chassis and cannot guaranty their condition because I am not a mechanic by trade." First he didn't have the time to fix a problem, later he didn't have the knowledge. A guy with a consistent story is the one that I will believe and I don't see that in Ray's case. Besides, whether or not Ray had knowledge of a problem is irrelevent. That is why Pete asked for an inspection. When Ray agreed, terms of the sale became dependent on what the inspection found. Ray, why would Pete want an inspection if the findings wouldn't bear on his decision? Give the man his money back. Bus nuts are a small group overall. You're cutting off your nose here for a relatively small amount. I promise you that it will cost you more than $1800 in the long run. Not to mention that you will sleep better if you do the right thing. Conversely, Pete should have done this through eBay 5 years ago. A buddy of mine had the exact same situation on a Corvette he was to buy. He drove to pickup the car and found it to be in far worse shape than stated in the ad. It took a few months but eBay did force the seller to give him his deposit back. Probably too late to get eBay involved at this late date so it comes down to what your reputation is worth to you, Ray. (Message edited by Songman on April 02, 2007) | ||
| captain ron (Captain_ron)
Registered Member Username: Captain_ron Post Number: 676 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 75.200.22.59 Rating: |
It would be nice to see a post on here that Ray has sent back the $1800.00. Recoup your Fees and other expenses and return the money. It's easy to earn $1800 and it's easy to earn a bad reputation, but a good reputation is not as easily earned, giving the money back won't buy you a good reputation but will go a long way towards earning one. If you in fact don't have the money to pay him back make arrangements to do so in payments. I hope you do the right thing. | ||
| Henry 96A3 (Hank)
Registered Member Username: Hank Post Number: 77 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 69.129.126.133 Rating: N/A |
Ron, Well said. You got some quotable stuff in there. Hank | ||
| captain ron (Captain_ron)
Registered Member Username: Captain_ron Post Number: 677 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 75.201.14.140 Rating: |
I might add that I am very proud of this thread as there is no real flaming going on. I have read threads where nobody was done wrong, just different opinions about something and the thread was deleted. I really hope this gets rectified as this is a small close knit community and can make for some uneasy situations later. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 275 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 68.205.121.225 Rating: N/A |
A fairly interesting website: The Wayback Machine | ||
| Dale Houston (Songman)
Registered Member Username: Songman Post Number: 9 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 71.110.138.35 Rating: N/A |
Pete, thanks for sharing the copy of the original ad with me. As I had assumed, there was no mention of any deposit being non-refundable. Yet another of the many reasons that you do deserve your deposit back. (Many of the others were mentioned in my post above as well as others that have been posted here.) I am truly sorry that you had this experience in the bus hobby and hope that Ray will do the right thing and refund the $1800 that both of you agreed on. If for financial reasons he is unable to do this all at once, I hope he will at least contact you and make some sort of arrangement. As I mentioned earlier, the bus conversion hobby is not all that large so word does spread quickly. I honestly believe it will cost Ray much more than $1800 in the long run if he doesn't do the right thing. Pretty smart of you to hang on to all the original files and printouts, Pete! I'll have to start doing that for future dealings. | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Registered Member Username: Pvcces Post Number: 1064 Registered: 5-2001 Posted From: 65.74.65.197 Rating: N/A |
Christy, we don't look at eBay quite the way you do, from what I see above. First off, we feel that the parties can frame any contract any way they want, so long as it is legal. Most everything put into an offer to sell is an attempt by the seller to induce the bidder to make a bid (offer), so we feel that everything in the auction is important. As a policy, we avoid contracts that will make people sore, because that is the stuff of retribution of all kinds. That means that we will kill any deal if it is clear that there was any mistake in it. This means that we make sure the drawbacks to any bidder get covered as well as the strong points. So far, we have offered everything we have sold under the following terms: This item is sold "as is, where is", with a return policy. An item may be returned within 30 days for any reason for a full refund of the purchase price. If the item is misdescribed, then we will refund the shipping cost, as well. While not many eBayers have that generous of a policy, it keeps us out of disputes, and it seems to get us enough in bids to pay for itself. The main thing that I saw wrong with the deal between Pete and Ray was there was not much in the way of evidence for Pete's position, so when Ray turned his back on their change in terms, Ray figured Pete was not in good shape to enforce it. It's hard to know what went on in their minds, so their behavior is the best indicator of what they believed. I do think that the seller had accepted a modification of the terms in his agreement to have the bus inspected and that Pete shoud get his money back. If eBay's own system won't get the matter settled, there are several other ways to complain. In the past, Google has provided leads, among them, IC3.gov/crimeschemes.aspx, FBI, and so forth. That's my opinion. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska | ||
| Christy Hicks (Christyhicks)
Registered Member Username: Christyhicks Post Number: 29 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 65.77.66.1 Rating: N/A |
It would probably be easier for me to respond if I knew which statements I made with which you disagree. Operating such as you do, you can be assured that your feedback will reflect the way you treat your customers and as far as I'm concerned, it's the smart way to operate. As I indicated above, this is why I suggested that Ray would have been smart to refund at least some of the deposit, whether he was "right" or "wrong". . . it just makes good business sense. Some could believe that the seller modified the agreement to have the bus inspected, others will believe that he simply agreed to deliver the bus to the garage for the gear work that the buyer was going to have done. It is entirely possible that the garage took it upon itself to notify the buyer that there were rust issues, and that the seller had never agreed to make the sale contingent upon inspection of a garage. . . who knows? I don't. We just flat out won't buy from someone who doesn't take either credit cards or Paypal, or has no feedback. We also recognise that you can't please all of the people all of the time, so we understand that occasionally, there will be a negative, but it's pretty easy to tell whether a seller is good or not. If a seller has a policy like yours, well, that gives us the confidence the bid freely. I would like to make it clear that we buy regularly on Ebay and 95% of the time are very pleased. Most sellers are trustworthy, but we still follow certain steps when buying a large ticket item, such as inspecting it before the end of the auction. If you can't afford to fly out and inspect a $20,000 bus before the end of an auction, you probably shouldn't bid on it. That's my opinion. My intent was to counter the indications that some people seem to think that buying at auction is like going to Wal-mart. They seem to think that you shoudl get a really good deal, and then be guaranteed that the item is perfect and you should get your money back if you change your mind. Sure, that's great when it happens that way, but if you buy at auction, any auction, you should be prepared to accept the fact that you don't get a guarantee with the item. Now, if the item was grossly misrepresented, that is a different story. Unfortunately, the incident that is described in this thread, happened 4-5 years ago. Any action that could or should have been taken, should have been done at that time, not five years later. The buyer had several options open to him at the time of purchase, and indicated that he spoke to a lawyer conderning the situation. If he had a clear and easy win, I would have thought that he should have pursued it at that time. To bring this up at this time, well, I think his motives are clear. It was not necessarily to warn people of what could happen, because he could have done that without naming names. I personally feel that he is still smarting from what he thinks was unfair treatment of him, by a specific individual, and wants to vent on a public forum, one where he knows he will get sympathy and pats on the back. A bunch of guys did just that. . jumped in and took sides, whether they really had enough information to make a decision or not. No one has won today, not the buyer, surely not the seller, and none of the rest of us. This is simply my opinion, not necessarily a fact, and is worth exactly what you all paid for it, nothing. Christy I can make no judgement of what was or was not said at the time of sale, and neither can anyone else who has voiced their opinion, because they were not present. The only two people who know what exactly was said and agreed upon between the buyer and seller are those two individuals. Christy Hicks (Bus poor) | ||
| Christy Hicks (Christyhicks)
Registered Member Username: Christyhicks Post Number: 30 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 65.77.66.1 Rating: N/A |
It would probably be easier for me to respond if I knew which statements I made with which you disagree. Operating such as you do, you can be assured that your feedback will reflect the way you treat your customers and as far as I'm concerned, it's the smart way to operate. As I indicated above, this is why I suggested that Ray would have been smart to refund at least some of the deposit, whether he was "right" or "wrong". . . it just makes good business sense. Some could believe that the seller modified the agreement to have the bus inspected, others will believe that he simply agreed to deliver the bus to the garage for the gear work that the buyer was going to have done. It is entirely possible that the garage took it upon itself to notify the buyer that there were rust issues, and that the seller had never agreed to make the sale contingent upon inspection of a garage. . . who knows? I don't. We just flat out won't buy from someone who doesn't take either credit cards or Paypal, or has no feedback. We also recognise that you can't please all of the people all of the time, so we understand that occasionally, there will be a negative, but it's pretty easy to tell whether a seller is good or not. If a seller has a policy like yours, well, that gives us the confidence the bid freely. I would like to make it clear that we buy regularly on Ebay and 95% of the time are very pleased. Most sellers are trustworthy, but we still follow certain steps when buying a large ticket item, such as inspecting it before the end of the auction. If you can't afford to fly out and inspect a $20,000 bus before the end of an auction, you probably shouldn't bid on it. That's my opinion. My intent was to counter the indications that some people seem to think that buying at auction is like going to Wal-mart. They seem to think that you shoudl get a really good deal, and then be guaranteed that the item is perfect and you should get your money back if you change your mind. Sure, that's great when it happens that way, but if you buy at auction, any auction, you should be prepared to accept the fact that you don't get a guarantee with the item. Now, if the item was grossly misrepresented, that is a different story. Unfortunately, the incident that is described in this thread, happened 4-5 years ago. Any action that could or should have been taken, should have been done at that time, not five years later. The buyer had several options open to him at the time of purchase, and indicated that he spoke to a lawyer conderning the situation. If he had a clear and easy win, I would have thought that he should have pursued it at that time. To bring this up at this time, well, I think his motives are clear. It was not necessarily to warn people of what could happen, because he could have done that without naming names. I personally feel that he is still smarting from what he thinks was unfair treatment of him, by a specific individual, and wants to vent on a public forum, one where he knows he will get sympathy and pats on the back. A bunch of guys did just that. . jumped in and took sides, whether they really had enough information to make a decision or not. No one has won today, not the buyer, surely not the seller, and none of the rest of us. This is simply my opinion, not necessarily a fact, and is worth exactly what you all paid for it, nothing. Christy I can make no judgement of what was or was not said at the time of sale, and neither can anyone else who has voiced their opinion, because they were not present. The only two people who know what exactly was said and agreed upon between the buyer and seller are those two individuals. Christy Hicks (Bus poor) | ||
| Christy Hicks (Christyhicks)
Registered Member Username: Christyhicks Post Number: 31 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 65.77.66.1 Rating: N/A |
It would probably be easier for me to respond if I knew which statements I made with which you disagree. Operating such as you do, you can be assured that your feedback will reflect the way you treat your customers and as far as I'm concerned, it's the smart way to operate. As I indicated above, this is why I suggested that Ray would have been smart to refund at least some of the deposit, whether he was "right" or "wrong". . . it just makes good business sense. Some could believe that the seller modified the agreement to have the bus inspected, others will believe that he simply agreed to deliver the bus to the garage for the gear work that the buyer was going to have done. It is entirely possible that the garage took it upon itself to notify the buyer that there were rust issues, and that the seller had never agreed to make the sale contingent upon inspection of a garage. . . who knows? I don't. We just flat out won't buy from someone who doesn't take either credit cards or Paypal, or has no feedback. We also recognise that you can't please all of the people all of the time, so we understand that occasionally, there will be a negative, but it's pretty easy to tell whether a seller is good or not. If a seller has a policy like yours, well, that gives us the confidence the bid freely. I would like to make it clear that we buy regularly on Ebay and 95% of the time are very pleased. Most sellers are trustworthy, but we still follow certain steps when buying a large ticket item, such as inspecting it before the end of the auction. If you can't afford to fly out and inspect a $20,000 bus before the end of an auction, you probably shouldn't bid on it. That's my opinion. My intent was to counter the indications that some people seem to think that buying at auction is like going to Wal-mart. They seem to think that you shoudl get a really good deal, and then be guaranteed that the item is perfect and you should get your money back if you change your mind. Sure, that's great when it happens that way, but if you buy at auction, any auction, you should be prepared to accept the fact that you don't get a guarantee with the item. Now, if the item was grossly misrepresented, that is a different story. Unfortunately, the incident that is described in this thread, happened 4-5 years ago. Any action that could or should have been taken, should have been done at that time, not five years later. The buyer had several options open to him at the time of purchase, and indicated that he spoke to a lawyer conderning the situation. If he had a clear and easy win, I would have thought that he should have pursued it at that time. To bring this up at this time, well, I think his motives are clear. It was not necessarily to warn people of what could happen, because he could have done that without naming names. I personally feel that he is still smarting from what he thinks was unfair treatment of him, by a specific individual, and wants to vent on a public forum, one where he knows he will get sympathy and pats on the back. A bunch of guys did just that. . jumped in and took sides, whether they really had enough information to make a decision or not. No one has won today, not the buyer, surely not the seller, and none of the rest of us. This is simply my opinion, not necessarily a fact, and is worth exactly what you all paid for it, nothing. Christy I can make no judgement of what was or was not said at the time of sale, and neither can anyone else who has voiced their opinion, because they were not present. The only two people who know what exactly was said and agreed upon between the buyer and seller are those two individuals. Christy Hicks (Bus poor) |
