| Author | Message | ||
| Dick Bell (Richardkan)
Registered Member Username: Richardkan Post Number: 43 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 64.12.116.203 Rating: N/A |
Ok, heres the deal. I have not done a very good job of thinking ahead with my Eagle and am looking for advice from more experienced folks. This has to do with tying the two on-board battery banks together. I have four automotive type lead acid start batteries that replaced the two huge batteries that were in the coach orginally. I have found that I usually only need two of them to start the 8/71. I also have two deep cycle lead-acid batteries feeding the 2500 watt trace inverter. What I don't have is a way to tie the two banks together. I had avoided this in the past because I was using gel-cell batteries for the house and know that they had a different charging rate than the lead-acid. Therefore I always charged them with the inverter. Now that I have changed to the same lead-acid as the starter batteries, I am wondering if it's OK to tie the two banks together and let the 260 amp coach alternator do the charging while on the road. I am anticipating running one roof air with this setup. Outside of the possible drain on the start batteries while stopped and not tied to shore power, what other problems should I expect? Am I opening a can of worms by tying the two together? | ||
| Chris Peters (Chris_85_rts)
Registered Member Username: Chris_85_rts Post Number: 15 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 66.194.150.45 Rating: N/A |
Tie the two banks together using a large contactor or start solenoid (Ford firewall style) that is only engaged when the engine is running. | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Registered Member Username: Drivingmisslazy Post Number: 1879 Registered: 1-2001 Posted From: 75.108.87.92 Rating: N/A |
Make sure the solenoid is designed for continous duty. Most starter relays/solenoids are only designed for intermittant duty. A good source for a heavy duty contactor is from the over the road A/C system if it has been removed. An oil pressure switch that has normally open contacts and that close when there is oil pressure is a good signal source to close the solenoid after the engine is running. Richard | ||
| Simon Ayriss (Design_dog)
Registered Member Username: Design_dog Post Number: 12 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 69.238.99.69 Rating: N/A |
I have the same set-up basicly and need to do the same thing. Except I have two new 8Ds and so far, two new marine gels. I was wondering if someone could break it down a bit more in newbie disabled vernacular. Meaning, could someone give an example of the solenoid your talking about? Is that an a/c solenoid from like an old Ford truck? Such as year '73 and below, or? Or does anyone know of a parts place that we can order a switch or such a solenoid or maybe even a photo. Also any tips on what you were pointing out Richard about what to look out for on battery overload or operation from someone who knows is very helpful. My apologies up-front as I lack understanding in many ways and just wanted to apply my arc welding skills to the maybe a bike rack on the back of my bus (just a bad joke.) Thanks for the help. | ||
| Pete/RTS Daytona (Pete_rtsdaytona)
Registered Member Username: Pete_rtsdaytona Post Number: 326 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 72.40.14.234 Rating: N/A |
400 amp http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/solenoidrelay.html 200 amp--> http://commerce1.cera.net/tacbusparts/sections/catalog/catalog.asp?cat_id=70 you can use the "R" terminal (12v) on the 50DN 24volt generator to energize the solenoid - Think about using a 12 volt "WALL WART" to energize the solenoid when shore power is available - so that you can charge the start batteries when your hooked up to the pole Using the oil pressure switch is not considered a "wise idea" - using the "R" terminal assures that the engine generator is TRUELY producing output before the combining solenoid is energized bet you could isolate the two inputs to the solenoid with diodes - or just have each energize a separte cheap "cube relay" and have the cube relays energize the big solenoid Pete RTS/Daytona | ||
| Arnie Molloy (Ayjay)
Registered Member Username: Ayjay Post Number: 68 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 151.203.210.131 Rating: N/A |
Hi: I do what you intend using a "Intellitec" Big Boy contactor,charge both sets when on shore power or when traveling down the road, but separate them when camped, draws current ONLY when changing states. Don't have the spec's available but seem to remember it being capable of carrying 1200 Amps. Bought 2 of them on E-bay, using one--other spare AyJay | ||
| Simon Ayriss (Design_dog)
Registered Member Username: Design_dog Post Number: 13 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 69.238.99.69 Rating: N/A |
Pete. That was quick. Thanks. This is great info. | ||
| Pete/RTS Daytona (Pete_rtsdaytona)
Registered Member Username: Pete_rtsdaytona Post Number: 327 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 72.40.14.172 Rating: N/A |
Simon You give me too much credit - I did not see your post - I was composing mine while yours was Posted Pete RTS/Daytona | ||
| clark lane (Bus05eagle)
Registered Member Username: Bus05eagle Post Number: 2 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 74.33.45.29 Rating: N/A |
Pete which one do you use on the 12v alt on and Eagle the same r terminal | ||
| evan (Legaleagle82)
Registered Member Username: Legaleagle82 Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.245.4.209 Rating: N/A |
 Here is a picture of a possible set up. Mine is set up as a jump start relay, so I assume it is not a continous duty solenoid. (subject to be changed out, just to make sure) As you can see that those are my house batteries and inverter wires on the bottom, and start batteries on top. Another option is the Pathmaker, just do a quick search on it, but same basic idea. Evan | ||
| Simon Ayriss (Design_dog)
Registered Member Username: Design_dog Post Number: 14 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 69.238.99.69 Rating: N/A |
Heh. Pete. I know. Doesn't matter though because it's good info for someone who's never put one together. So thanks again. Evan. This is great, truly. Picture is worth a 1000 words. With that diagram and part link from Pete and this photo, its making sense. thanks. sure helps if you really dont have a clue about all this stuff. just if anyone knows... how does the shut off work again. Its just manual? dry camp. running bus. and pole hookup? | ||
| Pete/RTS Daytona (Pete_rtsdaytona)
Registered Member Username: Pete_rtsdaytona Post Number: 328 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 72.40.14.172 Rating: N/A |
Clark IIRC Your Eagle's 12 volt Alternator has an "AC-3" terminal instead of the "R" terminal. It's the same type output (12volts DC - inverter sine wave) - It's used by the Eagle to pick up the (MOTOR RELAY) and the (STARTER PROTECT RELAY) Pete RTS/Daytona | ||
| Fred MacIsaac (Bassfid)
Registered Member Username: Bassfid Post Number: 9 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 24.92.146.134 Rating: N/A |
Cole-Hersee makes battery isolators in 70-200 amp capacity. An isolator only connects the two battery banks when it is energized (alt r term or such) http://www.colehersee.com/catalog_top/index.htm click on battery related products, and then on isolators Fred | ||
| bill chisholm (Billybandman)
Registered Member Username: Billybandman Post Number: 115 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 71.59.240.177 Rating: N/A |
What will be the pluses/minuses of charging two unmatched banks at the dame time? In Mine I have the 2 8d Start batteries and 4 6volt golf cart batteries for the house, tied to a 24v inverter, and wonder what i would do to batt life If I charged them together. Right now they are NEVER tied together except for emergency start. This is a 24v system and 24v inverter | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 119 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.240.213.22 Rating: N/A |
Bill....great question! Good post  RCB | ||
| Dan Corey (Dan_c)
Registered Member Username: Dan_c Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 66.109.108.7 Rating: N/A |
I have used the Cole Hearsee 24200 with success. 12 volts on the coil and 24 volt house and start batteries. A monentary 12 volts on the coil will close the contacts and a momentary 12 volts on the coil again will open the contacts. I use a push button switch to energize the coil. No power is required to keep the contacts closed. Go to: http://www.colehersee.com/catalog_top/index.htm Click on Product Search then enter 24200 then click on Spec. About $35.00 at Electronics Wharehouse in Riverside, Ca. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 128 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.80.150 Rating: N/A |
The only down side to one of those is WHEN you forget to turn the connector OFF after driving and charging. Then guess what, after sitting, both the house and start batts are dead! I know I need an idiot proof system, which doesn't take an action to start or stop. So, any of the diode seperators work very well, nothing but a big heat sink and two large diodes. Put it in the alternator output (large) cable, and run a large cable to the house batteries. There are at least ten ways of doing the whole setup, including a solenoid connected between the house and start batteries, controlled by the alt output, a push button in parallel with that circuit to provide emergency start from the house batteries, etc. I personally took the generator start batt out of my mh, because it only got charged when the gen ran, and connected it to the main start batt. This charges the house batts of the inverter, and the start batt off the gen... FWIW George | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Registered Member Username: Pvcces Post Number: 1063 Registered: 5-2001 Posted From: 65.74.65.197 Rating: N/A |
The big heat sink is a signal of something important. That is the voltage drop (and power loss) across the diodes. If the charging system is to work very well, the regulator needs to be connected to the alternator terminal, which means that the regulator needs to be adjusted upwards by about 0.4 volts. For what it's worth. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 129 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.80.150 Rating: N/A |
Tom, I think you are confused. First, a silicon diode causes .6Volt drop across it. 2nd, the regulator reference signal must be (and is) switched on and off thru the master switch, otherwise the regulator will go to full field current when the alternator output stops due to the engine being shut off, and run the start batts down quickly. So, the voltage that the regulator sees has already gone thru the seperator, and as the regulator has no idea of the resistance in the circuit between the alt and the batts, it still asks for the same voltage on the batteries with or without a diode seperator. All 24V alternators are capable of producing over 30V just a little above idle, so the addition of 0.6V of resistance in the output circuit is of no consequence. One could rewire the voltage regulator to the alt output terminal, and the seperator would prevent the reg from running the batteries down with a dead engine by accident, as the cable between the alt output and the seperator becomes dead with no alt output. But that would prevent the regulator from getting a true reading of what's really going on up front, and lower the actual voltage at the batts by .6V. A continuous duty solenoid with the coil wired to the "no gen" relay, or whatever the particular manufacturer calls it works well also. This can have an emergency start button wired in easily to use the house batts to help start also. George | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy)
Registered Member Username: Drivingmisslazy Post Number: 1881 Registered: 1-2001 Posted From: 75.108.78.129 Rating: N/A |
As George states, it is relatively easy to connect the alternator field so that it sees the output of the Diode separator. Then adjust the output of the regulator so that you get the proper voltage at the terminals of the battery. Worked for me for 15 years with no battery problems other than the normal aging of the batteries. Three group 31 regular start batteries for the engine on one diode output and four 8-D deep cycle on the other output. Richard | ||
| Dick Bell (Richardkan)
Registered Member Username: Richardkan Post Number: 44 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 152.163.100.13 Rating: N/A |
So, where does one get these diodes? Have you a manufacturers model #? I am interested in anything that will work more or less automatically as opposed to another item on a check list. | ||
| David (Davidinwilmnc)
Registered Member Username: Davidinwilmnc Post Number: 164 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 152.20.216.103 Rating: N/A |
I posted basically the same question about my MC-8 (on the MAK board) a while back. I bought a White-Rogers 24 volt continuous duty 200 amp solenoid to combine my house and start batteries. I have a DPDT switch near the parking brake. Up is normal - charges (combines) when the 'not gen' light goes out. Center is off - batteries are separated. Down is manually combined - for a jump start off the house batteries. The down position is powered from the house batteries in case the start batteries are completely dead or defective. I have an Intellitec 'Big Boy' latching solenoid that is installed after my original disconnect. The switch for this is also mounted on the same panel as the combiner switch. All that's left to do is to add a couple of LED's or some sort of indicator lights to indicate that the batteries are combined manually. David | ||
| David (Davidinwilmnc)
Registered Member Username: Davidinwilmnc Post Number: 165 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 152.20.216.103 Rating: N/A |
Duplicate post deleted. (Message edited by DavidInWilmNC on April 16, 2007) |