| Author | Message | ||
| Simon Ayriss (Design_dog)
Registered Member Username: Design_dog Post Number: 15 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 69.227.69.214 Rating: N/A |
O.k. So I was going through the dismantling blues. When I realized I haven't asked my one stupid question of the week / month, whatever. So here's one for the struggling newbies. Is there a sure fire easy way to remove the rivets from the inside of the bus (MCI8) ? (I know I am going to get a few different answers here. heh. Stirring up the trouble. But you know for someone who wants to pop out over a 1000 rivets its a good question.) So far I have read from somewhere you can use a grinder to grind off the head, then pop them out. So I tried that. On 2 panels so far. It worked but it takes a while and the metal smoke and dust is killing me. Then I tried a small cold steel chisel and pounded them out. It works but I think I need a bigger chisel. Better than the smoke though. I have seen people drill them out. Which I have to assume you need titanium bits. But seems long process. I have also heard of people using a blow torch, heating up the rivet and then popping the head off. I know there must be great technique to maybe easily take them off. Any suggestions?? By the way. Right now I am mainly working on the MCI8 lower steel side panels that have like 150plus rivets to each panel plus glue. They sure made em good. [and while I am on the subject it sounds stupid but I was just curious to find out if anyone has seen someone do a build on a bus where the steel panels were left intact and the build was done over the existing panels? Guess also just want to hear someone tell me again what the main reason is besides raising the roof, having better insulation, checking for rust damage and having new interior for walls and electrical.] And lastly. I am assuming that EVERYTHING inside the bus needs to be stripped down. Including the back which still has some stuff sticking out. and I also have some lavatory parts and such coming up in the bus from the back. Maybe someone could advise. Guess just dismantle and trace the line? By the way. Anyone who can throw in some good advice for me at this early stage and maybe even a good line on what to do next is good help. Meaning steps. Dismantle and strip out and then insulate and do electrical lines then plumbing?? Anyway between some of the past posts I've seen. (such as How much does it cost to do a conversion and the wonderful still not done comments, along with trying to pop rivets and eat metal dust) Right now I'm on top of the world. heh. (I'm just kidding I love reading the busnut board. Just waiting for someone to say it's all worth it. heheheh.) Thanks again for the all the info. http://www.designdog.net/busmovie/index2.htm | ||
| steve gaines (Kysteve)
Registered Member Username: Kysteve Post Number: 90 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 74.140.165.225 Rating: N/A |
Simon, I found for cutting rivets the best way for me was to use an old paint scraper and slide it between the frame and the panel I was taking off and drive it to cut the rivet with a hamer. Now I have a nice arsenal of tools ie air tools, drills, cut off tools ect. But this seemed to be the least time consuming way for me. If you try it, make sure you get the thick style of paint scraper with a long sturdy handle, mine was fiberglass. The blade on mine was about 3 inches wide and 1/8 inch thick, handle was about a foot long, and that let me drive it right down where the rivets met the frame and cut them with one blow of the hamer. Hope this helps, and yes its all worth it. Steve | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 292 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.107.49 Rating: N/A |
Ok.... Ready for the dumb question of the year? Why would you (do you) find the need to undo over 1,000 rivets? Damned near everything, including window frames, are an integral part of the overall structure of the bus. You'll have to undo, and redo it all...... per specs... and waffoe? Is it that important to go that route? (just curious) | ||
| RJmule (Rjmule)
Registered Member Username: Rjmule Post Number: 46 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 75.51.69.155 Rating: N/A |
When I removed the rivets on my MCI9 I found using a good drill or 2,7 LOL but it worked great for me, When drilling i would slightly angle bit after drilling for a second or two and this would cut into rivets really easy, but yes you do use a few bits, BE CARE FULL what rivets you remove,Think structural .RJmule | ||
| Simon Ayriss (Design_dog)
Registered Member Username: Design_dog Post Number: 16 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 69.227.69.214 Rating: N/A |
Almost reluctant to say anything too early because I would like to hear other comments. It all helps. Anyway. Steve. Fantastic idea!! Just what the Doctor ordered. Thanks for that. I never heard of using a paint scraper before. Thats just the hot tip I was looking for. Guess when your down and out on rivets you improvise some way to save your back. Anyone got any other remedies? just curious. Thanks for the comment about it being all worth it. I'll be happy when it's all cleaned out and I'm up next to the beach somewhere drinking a good cup of coffee. (heard the salt air is not good for the engine but thats another post.) Love to hear from other busnuts about some great experiences they had in their coach. Maybe some good stories. Or good photos. Like the trip they took to Mexico or to Yosemite or the Florida Keys, I don't know. Gets us struggling busnuts a little glimmer for the day we lift anchor. John. Well good question. Thats the question I was already asking. Or at least on the side panels. [["and while I am on the subject it sounds stupid but I was just curious to find out if anyone has seen someone do a build on a bus where the steel panels were left intact and the build was done over the existing panels? Guess also just want to hear someone tell me again what the main reason is besides raising the roof, having better insulation, checking for rust damage and having new interior for walls and electrical."]] John, usually what most people do is strip out the interior down to the outer skin and structure frame (someone can correct me on that), fix any rust damage, raise the roof at this point if you are going to or not, put new caps on or not, take out the windows or not, cover up the upper sides with rv fiberglass, aluminum, or paintable steel, put in some main electrical run wires, reinforce if needed with additional steel tubing, insulate, build back up with plywood and framing, frame out your walls and partitions, then start putting in your electrical outlets, then piping plumbing, etc. I might be far off but? When I meant rivets I meant the inside lower panels. I understand what your saying about structure integrity. I somewhat agree. Also if your are not raising your roof thats a factor too. Anyway, that is what I was curious or wanted to know or see is someone who did a conversion just over the existing interior. (did you do yours that way?) Your kind of building over old insulation and it seems when I think of it a bear when your doing electrical. I have seen often where the upper roof is just left alone or just covered with no insulation. Especially on a school bus. I dont want to take out rivets for the sake of taking them out. Besides if it weren't for the wifey I probably woulda ending up buying a school bus got a Harbor Frieght and a Sears card and just built right over it. Built an incredible roof rack and drove it up the sticks somewhere. But I am happy with the MCI. I plan on, hopefully, getting down to the core, cleaning it out, and insulating using double layers of the new foam insulation. Then rebuilding up from there. One main reason too is I check all the structure points and put in new insulation all the way around. Sides, roof, and floor (one layer plus another of plywood) If I give up early someone should get a nice coach. heh. Anyway but I'm open for suggestions. | ||
| Simon Ayriss (Design_dog)
Registered Member Username: Design_dog Post Number: 17 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 69.227.69.214 Rating: N/A |
Thanks RJ. Might find some good bits somewhere. O.K. Though now I am dying over the whole structure thing. What exactly should be removed or shouldn't be removed on a conversion? Like for example what clearly should not be removed. a, b and c. or what clearly should be taken out. a, b or c? I have seen bus interiors completely stripped. Obviously it is safe to say that no framework should be altered unless your reinforcing it. Could someone clearly tell me what is standard or not. Or at least what should definitely not be taken out or what should definitely be taken out? take a look at this back end of a MCI9 I just recently saw on ebay. http://www.designdog.net/busmovie/strippedback.jpg isn't it common to strip out the interior of a bus and work from the ground up? What about the side panels?? And also, thats what and why I was asking before is removing all that in the back. | ||
| Simon Ayriss (Design_dog)
Registered Member Username: Design_dog Post Number: 18 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 69.227.69.214 Rating: N/A |
http://www.gypsyjournal.net/Stripping_Inside_3.jpg http://www.gypsyjournal.net/ceiling_insulation_3.jpg http://www.gypsyjournal.net/flooring_5.jpg http://www.gypsyjournal.net/final_floor_4.jpg something like this anyway. | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 551 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.1.180.218 Rating: N/A |
Everyone has "their way". Most will work. "Our Way" was to remove all the interior panels below the windows. We found several frame members that were rusted to the point they needed repair. After the repairs were made we had the coach sprayfoamed. 1/2" plywood was then installed on the inside walls (floor to ceiling) using polyurethane construction adhesive and screws (installed at same spacing as OEM rivets, but not in the same holes). Window openings were then cut into the walls. As I said, there are many ways that will work, Listen to all methods and then decide what is best for you and your situation. Good luck, Jack | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 293 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.106.147 Rating: N/A |
Simon - Re: "John, usually what most people do is : -strip out the interior down to the outer skin -fix any rust damage -raise the roof -put new caps on -take out the windows -cover up the upper sides with RV fiberglass, aluminum, or paintable steel," I'm not too sure about the "most people" part.... although I noted that you did add the "or not" to each (?) I've met quite a few bus crazed fools during the years prior to finally buying my own bus. Some stripped the insides to the bare skin, some didn't. I didn't; my local bus friend didn't. An MCI rep (at the Kissimmee garage) said the inside skin (along with the window frames, glass, seat rails etc), is all part of the overall structural design, and tampering with it can do more harm than good.... sooooo.... I kept that in mind when I started the project (I never made it beyond the initial stages, tho). There may be rust inside the walls, very likely not... But the metal walls inside is nearly as thick as the metal outside, and both are securely riveted to the same framework (I'd be more concerned about rust around the center and sides of the windshield of an MCI) The window frames can be replaced with 2" square tubing, but why bother? It's as easy to plate right over the frames... I did, and it looked fine!  And to replace the stainless steel (or aluminum) outer skin with thin RV style fiberglass sheets? All that heavy duty protection replaced by something you can poke a ballpoint pen through... UGH. I had a twig go totally through the walls of our Winnebago. Why would I want to make a bus as fragile? I'd much prefer a double wall of metal any day. All electrical wiring can (could) be run through surface mount conduit design, making future changes easy. It's run that way in many professional buildings, and looks neat as a pin.... We all have a level of perfection we try to meet; some of us are more ambitious than others.... and some of us rather travel, than be constantly working on a never-ending back-yard project. There's no serious "right or wrong" about any of it. It all depends on what you want out of life.... and how fast you'd like to see it happen. As Fast Fred says "Do it your way". Do it! And don't look back. Oops.. and Oh... Center punch the rivets prior to drilling. It only takes a second each, and makes for a nice clean job! Welcome to the "hobby"! | ||
| Ed Jewett (Kristinsgrandpa)
Registered Member Username: Kristinsgrandpa Post Number: 308 Registered: 2-2003 Posted From: 64.24.208.42 Rating: N/A |
Aircraft supply houses have a neat little gadget to center your drill bit on a rivet when drilling them out. A good sharp air chisel might be faster. Ed | ||
| Muddog16 (Muddog16)
Registered Member Username: Muddog16 Post Number: 348 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 4.224.243.22 Rating: N/A |
I think I've tried them all, the answer is really up to you! If you are not going back with the original skin then I would use a 16 ounce short handle hammer and a rather sharp chisel about 1" wide, and keep it sharp, also the angle really made a big difference, I would place the chisel at the edge of the head of the rivet and just a slight angle just behind it, and wear gloves (it deadens the near hits)! If your trying to save the skin then drill the center of the rivet with the same diameter or a tad bit larger drill bit! I've seen the tool that Ed mentioned but it was to late to try it when I found it! I tried the air chisel and that was a pain in the you know what! What I noticed was the tighter the rivet joint was the easier it sheared with the hammer and chisel, it took two to three hits and it flew off......wear safety glasses! Good luck and its time consuming and boring and you can't make it interesting enough for any one else to ask is they can try it!........  | ||
| Simon Ayriss (Design_dog)
Registered Member Username: Design_dog Post Number: 19 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 69.227.69.214 Rating: N/A |
AAAARRRG. John. I understand what you are saying about structural integrity and actually to me, it makes sense. The inside metal makes the bus solid. Probably, had I posted, read your reply, then I would have seriously considered your way leaving side panels window frames intact. Your right that would explain the [?] I was already asking myself that before thats why I was curious if someone had done a build over the existing interior. And let this be a lesson to busnuts I guess, that if you dont post or ask you may not know. Best to find out before you hammer if you can. Unfortunately, problem is when I bought the bus, the interior was already gutted. The previous owner had already started to grind in on the side panel rivets. I mainly bought the bus because the seats where out, etc., it has no rust, and it has a new engine. At the purchase point it might have been a hard call to do it either way but I may have been able to retain it all and build over the inside of it. I think in the future other busnuts would like to hear your method, right or wrong, to understand options. I for one would love to have seen a photo or two of the inner framework and outer skin. But now I already started on at least 2 panels and I have to makes sense of it. So, as you say, do it and dont look back. I agree with you I want to enjoy the bus not work on it for 10 years. For everyone its different. What I am looking for is practicality. Meaning. I want to make it comfortable and install or do work that makes sense in return to just make it livable and comfortable on a budget. Meaning I dont expect to just throw a loose couch back there, no insulation, and a portapotty; I dont need to boondock for 3 months and need 2 tons of batteries; and I dont need mobile tracking satellite, a sunken jacuzzi, slideouts, an open bar. I just need clean and comfortable. Hot water and good bed. Some decent electrical, good insulation, kitchen area, just good simple functionality. Sadly, a budget bus but not a crappy one. If I keel over tomorrow someone will be getting a nice (but structurally weak [just joking] clean running, clean from the core out, well insulated, no rust bus. By the way your bus looks fantastic. nice job. Jack, Ed and Muddog. Thanks for the input. I'm off to Harbor Freight and Home Depot today to see what I can find for now. At this point, any more rivet ideas, structural integrity keypoints, what to remove, what not to remove, what other people have done, comments on what I have left in the back of the bus, best way to remove it, best foam insulation and where to get it that has good price value, good value on a couple RV windows, etc. Since I dont have air tools as of yet. I'm going to try the paint scraper and a sharp chisel and see if I can get a deal on some titanium bits. Can someone tell me a bit more on spray foam? Is that a hassle? I heard that spray foam is easier now but still ply foam is easier cheap and efficient. I assume that once I get it stripped out I can start dealing insulation, then with electrical, floorplan, and plumbing. | ||
| Ednj (Ednj)
Registered Member Username: Ednj Post Number: 152 Registered: 3-2003 Posted From: 67.85.229.237 Rating: N/A |
Simon, When I removed mine I just used the angle grinder with a cut off wheel; I too had to know how much rust was in there. While I was at it I used the angle grinder to cut the heads off the floor bolts as well (nothing like the smell of that floor wood burning). Once the wood was off all you do is smack the chair rails with a good hammer and they pop right off. Real good time to clean all the stuff (and I mean “STUFF”) out of the HVAC ducts. All the insulation in the walls as well as under the floor was soaking wet. Yes some of the insulation was in closed sealed plastic bags and they were half full of water. After replacing all the rusted metal and adding more where the windows where and where I needed nailers (for lack of a better word), I primed every thing with a ceramic additive paint. I bought the spray foam insulation kits from Mcmaster – Carr and foamed the whole thing myself under floors and all. I reinstalled the original wood floor with new ½” over it. I used ¾” sanded on the walls (good to screw to). I reused the Aluminum ceiling panels instead of wood (you can attach anything to the Aluminum just like wood) just leave off the tracks and rivet the panels to the frame. Notice no buried wires. No “ BOD” conversion (Built On Dirt). Its hard to stay motivated when you see a nice working bus stripped to scrap that no one would want or no one can see your vision. Once you get the plywood tent built and start building your “coach” It’s all worth it again. You can see some of my picture’s on yahoo = http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/busshellconverters/?yguid=155252727 . Simon take lots of picture’s you never have enough. Ed. | ||
| Simon Ayriss (Design_dog)
Registered Member Username: Design_dog Post Number: 21 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 69.227.69.214 Rating: N/A |
Oh this is a good post. Ednj - Thanks for that info!! This is all good info. Helps a lot. You bring up a good point. The HVAC ducts. or at least the central air in the bus. On my MCI8 they are all built into the floor. Which brings up a another question I wanted to ask. How or at least what have other people done on a MCI8 with the floor? How do you deal with that? It seems most people just go over the original floor and the air ducts floor ducts with another section of plywood. Do most people leave in the ramp in front or go over it? So far I plan on putting down a layer of foam insulation then another of plywood and maybe keeping the ramp but then there is always that "air pocket" the ducts always under there. [?] Your right once I have it insulated and my plywood tent in there I will be a happy camper. It tough to see the light at the end of the tunnel with all the dirt. At least I am not dealing with rust. I think your right also to make sure I take a few pictures. Will remind me later how I did it, the integrity and rust factor, and all the dirty hassle it was to get it in shape. Good tip on the insulation foam I'll take a look. Thanks. | ||
| Simon Ayriss (Design_dog)
Registered Member Username: Design_dog Post Number: 22 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 69.227.69.214 Rating: N/A |
Ed. Great photos. Good to see a bus from foam to done. That ceramic primer is fantastic - What is it? "Ceramic primer, new framing interior& windows removed,reframed and primed with Dielectric additive" I might ask you a few questions here and there I hope you dont mind. Also where did you get your refrigerator? is that propane? and your shower stall and potty? looks good. | ||
| Ednj (Ednj)
Registered Member Username: Ednj Post Number: 153 Registered: 3-2003 Posted From: 67.85.229.237 Rating: N/A |
Simon, No propane all electric. I got alot of interior stuff in Indiana, rv surplus. I switched my supply and return under floor ducts before reinstalling the floor. Do you know about the converters bucket? | ||
| Simon Ayriss (Design_dog)
Registered Member Username: Design_dog Post Number: 23 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 69.227.69.214 Rating: N/A |
Does that mean you have to be posted all the time for the fridge? I'll have to take a trip out to Indiana one day. On the ducts. Oh you mean you just bypassed the floor and rehooked up someplace else? I dont think my ac works properly or ducts anyway so guess what people do is block up the ducts with [?] then put down insulation (or foam) and put over plywood. Nope. Dont know about converters bucket. [?] | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 21 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 65.41.152.52 Rating: N/A |
simon-I had to take all the rivets out to reskin the outside so like you that gets tiring. what I done was take a piece of round metal stock to a machine shop and they centered it up and drilled a 3/16 hole in one and 1/4 in another,then they machined an offset to go over the head, and I put it over the rivet and used a bullet drill bit and it no time the rivet was out and the head was off yea for me hahaha I also welded a small flat piece of metal just to hold on to and it workes like the 250.00 piece in stores.. | ||
| Ednj (Ednj)
Registered Member Username: Ednj Post Number: 154 Registered: 3-2003 Posted From: 67.85.229.237 Rating: N/A |
I have a Xantrex, RS300 sine wave inverter/charger with automatic generator start, hooked to a Onan diesel gen set and only 2 agm batteries 210 This works real good for now. On the MCI 9’s that center isle is the return air duct. I switched the supply from blowing up under the windows to blow into this center duct that runs the length of the interior. The bucket is a secret, I’ll see if I get the story right. When you go out to work on the bus you take a empty bucket with you, then when you are just sitting there staring at nothing day dreaming you kick the bucket around a few times, everyone that can hear it thinks you are busting your a__ and leave you alone. It helps you to see what’s next. After I tiled my bathroom floor I sat there with the bucket kicking it a little and I didn’t like how the tile looked so I ripped it out and redid the floor. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 131 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.240.144.42 Rating: N/A |
Marvin...I'm not familiar with a "bullet drill bit"...what have I been missing? The rivets on our coach come out....but not easily, no matter the method. Drill bits don't last long,even though I purchased the best I could buy locally. The rivets are a yellowish color as one drills into the center. Having said that, it was a piece of cake next to drilling the stainless screws that are 43 years old. I have found absolutely nothing that will go thru them. Still have two bay doors to do and not looking forward to it.... I have considered renting a Plasma unit, but haven't used one in several years so don't know it that will be a good way to go or not...and yes, I am keeping the aluminum skin and am working from the outside. Thanx, RCB | ||
| JR Lynch (Njt5047)
Registered Member Username: Njt5047 Post Number: 148 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 69.132.226.200 Rating: N/A |
As John (I believe?) said, the rust is likely inside the walls above the floor and below the windows. AND, above and below the windshield. As you pull panels, especially the inside aluminum panels, be sure and mark each one if you plan to reuse them. Mark them with something that won't clean off easily. The interior panels are all differently shaped. I used an air chisel to remove rivets on planels that I didn't plan to reuse. Drilling out the rivets is quick and painless also. The air chisel bit should be sharpened like a paint scraper. That makes getting under a tight rivet easy. It'll pop their little heads off as fast as you zap'em. Downside is that the air chisel process is noisy. If you remove the inner panels, get ready for some repair work. I'll garuntee you'll find rusted frame steel between the floor and windows. Whether or not to do this intense refurbish work is how much time you have and what you wish spend. And how much time do you wish to spend with the project. It'll be a lifestyle unless you have good help. And when you finish, you'll find that the value changes only minimally. May I suggest, that if you are removing the stainless, that you go back with paintable sides? It'll add to the curb appeal. Wouldn't add to a Prevost, but smooth sides look good on an MC8. Decisions and more decisions! My dos centavos, JR | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 22 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 65.41.152.52 Rating: N/A |
r.c. the bullet drill bits are made by black and decker and they are titanium. They have a small point when you start to drill and then step up to the size you are finishing with. they cannot be resharpened by a grinder but by not forcing it they will do a great job. If you made the tool I described you probably wont need them. the length of the stock is only 2 in long and you can do it so easy I could not beleive it. On the outside I also used a ZIP GUN ll which is a 1/2 in shank with a rivet cutter head. If you don;t worry about damaging the metal that is the way to go and the old bucks stay in place fairly good and then realign the new rivets between cool hu | ||
| Robert & Debra White (Rob_n_deb)
Registered Member Username: Rob_n_deb Post Number: 12 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 72.24.19.78 Rating: N/A |
When I was employed as an aircraft sheet metal mechanic we just drilled the rivets out of the skins with a light weight air drill motor using cobalt bits with wax… to find good drill bits for rivet removal try google with the search words “aircraft tooling supplies” Here is one suppler that has cobalt bits http://www.panamericantool.com/family.cfm?fam=DRILLS I hope this helps you out,,,,its not to bad of a chore once you have the right tools | ||
| Simon Ayriss (Design_dog)
Registered Member Username: Design_dog Post Number: 24 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 69.227.69.214 Rating: N/A |
Thanks to everyone for all the input! I will look into the Black and Decker bits and the cobalts. Thanks for that. Since at this point so far I dont have air tools. (which I know sure would be nice) anyway. after taking a look at Steve Gaines photos (his dealing with rust ripping the whole core out) figured he might know something about the rivet ordeal. I looked into his advise and went to Home Depot for a good paint scraper. I couldnt find a good paint scraper thick enough so I found a great Husky 6in1 Painters Tool. Also, a Hyde Chisel Puty Knife. Both from Home Depot. I got these to prove his paint scraper technique. Sure enough it worked. Well. Not perfectly but it works. What happens is this. He's right. You take the paint scraper or painters tool and wedge it in the wall and rivet. Hit it a couple of times and wedge out the rivet head, it separates from the wall, then I give it a good whack with a cold chisel I got from Harbor Frieght. Pops off. Now. What I am saying its a good alternative from the grinder. So the grinder does work. Done that before if you can stand the smoke. The paint scraper works. So I figure for now rotate a bit. Mostly scraper some few with the grinder. I will pick up some Black and Decker bits or cobalt soon. These will come in handy especially hard to reach places and on curves and such. I will also give the bits a try on the side panels. Oh I forgot. I also got a cold steel punch. It works out great for those stubborn ones or just to get that last bit of rivet out if needed. The best comment is the one I like from Ed. "The conversion bucket" Boy. that cracked me up. Truth is I'm going to use it. Take my bucket back there and kick it around a bit. The wifey will think I am scraping my knuckles back there. heh. Just for reference. Here are the tools I used and I got that I mentioned. http://www.designdog.net/busmovie/index3.htm I'll have to get some bits. Anyone have any more input about what, or what not to remove. Their way of conversion process, insulation, etc., I love to hear. Thanks. (Message edited by Design Dog on April 24, 2007) | ||
| RJmule (Rjmule)
Registered Member Username: Rjmule Post Number: 51 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 75.51.69.155 Rating: N/A |
Simon, Good luck with your conversion, I watched your video and our buses look very similar. I noticed all the insulation hanging from the ceiling left over from removal. Mine is the same and not looking forward to the cleaning process. I started to remove the interior panels below windows before i was told not to because of structural issues. would like to know condition of frame but was not looking happy about those dam rivets, WISH I HAD A BUCKET HANDY. anyways GOOD LUCK in your endeavors. RJmule. | ||
| Simon Ayriss (Design_dog)
Registered Member Username: Design_dog Post Number: 25 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 69.227.69.214 Rating: N/A |
Arrgh. I guess one thing for sure is - everybody does things differently. Had I known before I might have left the side panels in. Unfortunately someone else started the dismantle before I bought it and started to mess with the side panel rivets. He started the conversion and had definate intentions to raise the roof. Fortunately he opted out and I bought the bus. I have seen and would like to hear more about people who have removed the side panels and especially have used ply-foam insulation. I started thinking about it more and realized that since 2 panels are off now and not reusable, I'm going all the way, but after I'm done, I'll place emphasis on functionality and rebuilding and maintaining structure. I'll probably weld in and more support and framework. I hope to make the sides paintable steel or thick aluminum. We'll see. I'll have to work on it a bit at a time but I will get there. RJ. Your not far from me either. Love to see a photo or two of your bus. Definately have to keep in touch because I'm sure we can help each other along the way. Hopefully this board and the other busnuts won't mind when I ask a lot of questions along the way. Even if they are the obvious or not too advanced. But I figure I help pave the way (and try to ask questions that will) for the next guy that comes along and faces the same issues. In this post alone, just if the next guy or someone else points to it, picks up a bus and reads this then they will discover that A.) some people leave side panels intact. B.) some people dont. And there are reasons and pro and cons to each. Like to hear more on that especially the structural issue. AND also obviously, and I knew there would be before I posted, more than one way to skin a rivet. :-) heh. If someone picks up a couple of tips when they are removing rivets and it works for them, whether its the side panels or on the outside skin or just below the caps, it could save them HOURS. and to me thats priceless. To me I would hope thats what the busnut board is for. Being I am at my early stage and I have so much work to do, I have a lot of questions and issues that I will be asking myself. From time to time, I'll be in the back kicking my bucket. But right now, I guess at this point I'll take one rivet at a time. Thanks for all the input from everyone. Finding out views and what other people have done sure helps, so thanks for all the time and input. (Message edited by Design Dog on April 24, 2007) | ||
| Les McDaniel (Rainbow)
Registered Member Username: Rainbow Post Number: 3 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 64.114.48.140 Rating: N/A |
When removing rivets with mandrels, take a punch and knock the mandrels in. Then the rivet can be drilled if you don't want to mark the sheathing. The fastest way after the mandrel is in, is to use a air hammer with the proper chisel for cutting off rivet heads. They will come off as fast as you can move from one rivet to the next. As to drill bits, I have always used quality HSS bits. They don't break like those fancy ones and work just as well if your pressure and speed is correct. You should be removing the inside wall skin to see how much rust there is. The outside and inside skin can't do it's job if there is nothing to hold onto. It's also a good time to weld up any cracks. Done lots of MCI's | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 295 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.105.131 Rating: N/A |
Ok.... One last personal opinion (from me): Any rust under the windows, and at the floor level, generally was caused by several things; the -cause- is usually remedied by the conversion process (intentionally, or consequentially).. -The rubber window gaskets being worn, and/or the drainage slots in the window frame being clogged, allowed water to enter the wall.. -The interior of the bus (usually) having been washed out with a water hose at the end of every trip or line-run, each and every day of it's commercial life (that slanted floor serves a purpose, ehh?), allowed water to enter the lower wall areas -Likewise, the windshield area is subjected to loose marker light mountings, and the gutter rail screws allowing seepage (as does the gutter rail the length of the bus), allowing water to enter into the wall areas. There's a high probability that there are rusted areas in -every- old bus that's still on the road, in service, or converted... And more than likely, the commercial buses were in service carrying passengers safely, with all that rust inside the walls, etc., yet remaining to conform to the intense safety rules of the DOT for many, many years... I've personally never heard of any bus company tearing apart bus walls to check for rust, or to repair some rust inside the walls. The rust under windows in an MCI is usually not so bad that it impairs the vehicle's structural integrity; the area is held together, outside skin to inside skin, the entire length of the bus. In my opinion, there's absolutely nothing wrong with spending one's life, or life's savings, restoring anything, if that's what was intended and planned. It can be very personally rewarding to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear (I guess that's the "hobby" part of it, right?)... But if all a guy wants, is a decent RV designed "his way", to use for the next 10 or so years, there really isn't any need to go to the extreme extent that other hobbyists may feel absolutely "necessary". Sometimes, the desire to restore items, goes well beyond the actual need to do so. It's at that point that it can become so expensive and time consuming, that both the interest and desire to finish the job can be greatly dimished, or lost altogether.... No right, or wrong.. just a matter of opinion. | ||
| steve gaines (Kysteve)
Registered Member Username: Kysteve Post Number: 92 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 74.140.165.225 Rating: N/A |
Simon, I have to jump in here, one peice of 1 1/2 by 1 1/2 by 1/8 inch by 24 feet of new steel cost less than 80 dollars, and that could be the difference in your bus sitting level on level ground or tilting 6 inches or more to one side on level ground. Now this is in extream cases but I for one can not see spending 40 to 100 thousand dollars on a conversion and let 80 or even 500 dollars ruin your day on the first trip you take in your newly completed conversion. Your going to be throwing weight in all new directions in your bus as the conversion takes place. Like say where your frig is going to set verses where the weight of two seats and two passengers once sat. In my opinion, what does it cost to remove and inspect? How much is the time it takes to inspect worth verses the time it takes to rip out your new interior and fix later after youve completed your conversion. Now Im not saying youve got hiden rust damage, but how can you possible know for sure if you dont look. I think peace of mind is worth a fortune later. Say your driving down the road latter and hear a thump in the back lower half of the bus and want to start diagnosing the problem. How then would you eliminate frame damage? Right now your just a thin peice of alluminum away from seeing that frame. Latter you will be a thin piece of alluminum, a layer of insulation, a layer of plywood, some wiring, some plumbing, some wall paper, some cabinetry, and some appliances away from that frame. Or faced with the task of peeling away a piece of skin on the outer part of your bus to fix a problem. Now that being said, I fully agree with john, the intended use of the finished conversion is what your looking at. I agree there is no use in ripping apart the bus if your going to be weekend warriors just during the summer months the kids are out of school ect. Its all about doing it your way and to satisfy what you have in your head as your conversion expectations. I know I am one of the "sows ear" owners and my expectation of my conversion is that "silk purse". But again, to each ones own. I do plan on fulltiming in our bus and I see my extra attention to detail no different than my neighbors extra attention to detail in his flower garden. That garden is just "his way" and his pride and enjoyment last him all through the winter months to when it starts all over again. I want to enjoy that same pride when im tooling down the road in our home. Cause when we are fulltiming in our bus that will be home. And I see nothing wrong in taking pride in what we do. Again its just "my way" and I encourage you to do it "your way" no mater what way that is. You have to make yourself happy or its all in vain. Just in case John, us "sows ear" owners, at least this one, took no offense there. Im just giving another veiw here. Just my opinion, not that it counts...lol...Steve | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 297 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.108.117 Rating: N/A |
Steve - That's what makes a forum worthwhile! Different views are always good.... it lets folks know they're not alone with what they're considering, regardless what they're considering. Good or bad, everyone's got something to share. (btw, I've gotten quite good at turning "silk purses" into "sow's ears"!) HAR! | ||
| Simon Ayriss (Design_dog)
Registered Member Username: Design_dog Post Number: 26 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 69.227.69.214 Rating: N/A |
Alright, now this is killing me I have to jump in here. A couple of things. Just off the bat, like I said before, John I totally agree with you. I for one am for the least path of resistance, I agree about the structural integrity, it would be a whole lot easier and does make sense to do a build over the side panels, etc. If I think about it, you could do a really good job. And I agree. The structural strength on your bus is probably fantastic as with any stock MCI. I am not sure about a bus company "overhauling" a bus and not ripping out the inside to get rid of rust. I think when necessary, mainly at the custom shops, they'll rip the whole thing apart, MCI may not, but they dont do conversions either nor did they build the bus for that. Also. You brought up some very fine points that, funny thing, I was going to mention in my next post, which is important. About the rust and the MCI windows. [Any rust under the windows, and at the floor level, generally was caused by several things; the -cause- is usually remedied by the conversion process (intentionally, or consequentially).. -The rubber window gaskets being worn, and/or the drainage slots in the window frame being clogged, allowed water to enter the wall.. -The interior of the bus (usually) having been washed out with a water hose at the end of every trip or line-run, each and every day of it's commercial life (that slanted floor serves a purpose, ehh?), allowed water to enter the lower wall areas -Likewise, the windshield area is subjected to loose marker light mountings, and the gutter rail screws allowing seepage (as does the gutter rail the length of the bus), allowing water to enter into the wall areas. [good point also - Make sure your roof gutter rails are clear all the time otherwise it will drain down the "center" of the bus and possible leak in the window] There's a high probability that there are rusted areas in -every- old bus that's still on the road, in service, or converted... And more than likely, the commercial buses were in service carrying passengers safely, with all that rust inside the walls, etc., yet remaining to conform to the intense safety rules of the DOT for many, many years... I've personally never heard of any bus company tearing apart bus walls to check for rust, or to repair some rust inside the walls.] I pretty much agree with all of that. As a matter of fact, I wanted to state the importance of window leaks to all. But first I want to point out again. When I purchased this bus it was already partly dismantled. It ALREADY had rivets missing from the side panels. I suppose I could have drilled it out and re riveted it again but at the time it hadn't crossed my mind. Namely also, before I read your post, (which is what I am saying and why I was asking the [?],) if anyone had done a build over the side panels before. Up until this point I had not known that this had been done before with great results. So having not read your post and have missing rivets already I started to remove one of the panels already, and as I have seen before many people have removed their side panels. Chances are, as I said, I might have tried to do a build over the panels or at least considered it. Especially since my bus is a solely West Coast with no rust on the underbelly or elsewhere. However- Another factor is, the other day it rained for a day. When it did I noticed a window seal leak. Also a leak in the front right window shield. So now that gets me to where I am at right now. Which John has just mentioned and well put about window leaks. And this is what I was going to post. I cannot stress the importance of window leaks. IF YOU EVER have a window leak on your bus - Fix it! Preferably right away! Window leaks over time will seep down and eventually rust the upper insides of your bus. WHEN YOU BUY a bus. You want to check for window leaks. If your bus has been sitting, as mine has for 1.5 years in the dessert area, it needs to be attended to in regards to window leaks. Just a important comment on bus maintenance, buying and ownership. Although window leaks are minor in creating damage internally compared to motor and undercarriage rust, over long periods of time they will make a difference. Now. My bus has no rust. Not on the underneath motor compartment, or anywhere that I have inspected. And as John pointed out, its common for a MCI after all those years to have or experience minor rust under those panels and not impose the structural integrity. BUT. after I removed 3 panels I did discover some small or slight rust on a cross section due to a minor window leak. The rust is really minor. Not that bad. But to me I showed the wifey and thought to myself. If I was going to fix this bus up and sell it in under 3 years then thats one thing or if I was going to throw a futon back there and take it camping. But if I own this thing longer than 5 years, Which believe me I will. Then I am happy to my personal satisfaction that it really is at a perfect stage where the fact that I opened up the panels, the minor rust is totally repairable, as with rust, the perfect time to stop it is at an early early stage, and after I am done I will have the knowledge that I stopped it before I have ANY issues regarding rust internally. Which, made me think. I also have to agree with Steve "[How much is the time it takes to inspect worth verses the time it takes to rip out your new interior and fix later after youve completed your conversion. Now Im not saying youve got hiden rust damage, but how can you possible know for sure if you dont look. I think peace of mind is worth a fortune later. Say your driving down the road latter and hear a thump in the back lower half of the bus and want to start diagnosing the problem. How then would you eliminate frame damage? Right now your just a thin piece of aluminum away from seeing that frame. Latter you will be a thin piece of aluminum, a layer of insulation, a layer of plywood, some wiring, some plumbing, some wall paper, some cabinetry, and some appliances away from that frame. Or faced with the task of peeling away a piece of skin on the outer part of your bus to fix a problem.]" Not that I think in 5 years time I would be seeing structural damage, but thing is for sure and I thought this. The Last thing I want it to, like Steve said, be dealing with rust or ANY issue after I put in insulation, electrical, plumbing and walls or be messing with the outer skin. Also I dont want any leak issues at all. I also agree with Steve that insane as it may be, I feel a sense of satisfaction, relief and pride knowing that the bus is rust free and 100% from the core out. Not to mention I have MCI8 with an out-of-frame rebuild with only 500 miles on it. So its not like its a total waste. In the end I will have new motor, clean conversion, 100% rust free. If I plan on selling it and if I ever do I can SUREly say its a no rust bus with a new motor. That's not easy to find 500 miles on it and varifyably rust-proof. It wont bring up the price maybe but its good to know. Plus have the satisfaction I wont take someones money like other people have in the past knowing there is rust throughout the bus ANyway. Like I said. IF I had bought the bus with no dismantling done and it had the seats in it and I talked to John beforehand, then I would have built over the existing window frames and panels knowing the bus. But due to circumstances at this point, I am almost glad it happened this way. I will have a bus clean from the inside out. It's not a sows ear or a silk purse just a verifiable clean bus. FYI - a few tips for those embarking on this path. As most may know already (live and learn,) when working on the inside of your bus with an MCI. Hot tip - block off your floor ducts holes before you work on it with some plastic or wood or something. I have already lost 2 chisels down one of my floor ducts. @&*-! (any suggestions? magnet and a coat hangar or pull up the floor?) I still haven't gotten any air tools. I am sure the air chisel works great. Would like to try. Still wandering for the B&D bits and some of the others. I'm sure I will acquire more tools in time. For now I am doing the paint scraper, chisel , t-bar technique and for hard to get buggers a titanium bit. I posted a few pictures just so you know the technique that I am using now is: You would think to use a sledgehammer, but no Steve was right, use just a nice carpenter hammer. Still works and you tire out less. Next give it a few hits with the painters tool or paint scraper and try to wedge the rivet out from the wall a bit. Then, place a chisel on the neck and give it a good whack and it should drop off. If you want you can go over a whole panel with the painter tool first then chisel later. For stubborn rivets use the titanium bit. If you get tired of pounding use a grinder and gas mask. This all may not be advanced but it works. Until I get air tools or new bits. ALSO. Here I put in a picture of a few tools that will come in handy aside from the ones already mentioned in this post. Hot tip - Go down and get yourself a mechanics seat from Sears or Harbor Freight. I paid $10 for mine. It has rollers and you can roll around the bus. Will save your back and it's worth millions. Also, a good thing to get is whats called a T-bar. I got one from Harbor Freight. It's like a steel crowbar with a T. I figured out its great for peeling off the side panels. What you do is pry the top. Then make an insert and pry from the bottom up. For pulling the panels off it is a blessing. Get one. http://www.designdog.net/busmovie/index1.htm Anyway. Sounds like John has a great bus, looks fantastic, I would certainly be happy with that. I can understand why Steve would want to spend all the time to make his "just right." I would be proud of that bus if I did it for sure. Mine I would hope I can get to a state where I can take on a few 3 month road trips and possibly full-time in it for 1-2 years max. Thats my goal budget permitting. Even after that I hope to have it parked in the driveway for at least the next 5 plus years. Even though it is what it is right now with all this time and work, after its done I'll feel good about it all. Hopefully my bus should last a few more years. It's funny, for a long time I've always had this joke with the wife saying that what I really want to do is get another bus, a school bus, and just do it on the cheap, put a gas stove in it and a shower, and that would be my messing around bus where I could go out and clang it around camping and such. It's true. I still want to do it. The truth of it is that I realize once I am done with this bus chances are I will have learned enough to do a school bus in half the time and half the money. It'll be my second bus and I would have learned from my first mistakes. In some cases it might turn out better. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 299 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.105.52 Rating: N/A |
Re: "Anyway. Sounds like John has a great bus, looks fantastic, " Fantastic... on a real rainy night, at about 300 yards, maybe.... I had to abandon my bus conversion, Simon. Health problems have taken it's toll. It's probably the one single thing that most bus crazed fools fail to acknowledge as a factor to consider when starting a major project like this. When you find your life span is (or may be) suddenly shortened, you find yourself wondering if it's worth taking your last few breaths while pounding out stupid rivets.... Listen, you'll find that we all sometimes make comments not directed to any single person, but to the forum itself... Don't take anything personally. Anyone that's thinking of converting a bus (that reads at these forums), should be able to read about all sides of the issues. I worked the outside first, to get it to look like a decent motorhome just in case we needed it to evacuate and had to stay at some campground that usually refuse home-built looking RVs. The seats, rails, luggage racks, and toilet are out. The ramp is now the same height as the floor (that was the easiest job)..  The AC is out, totally, front and rear. The bus is now ready to be rebuilt into a motorhome (except it won't be by me).... As far as the stripping process? Hey....consider this.... How many of us have torn out a house's walls before we paint, wallpaper and decorate, just to see if there's any rot inside? (show of hands, please?) Pound on the bus sides... does it rattle? Check inside the bays.. is there any sign of rust, or rust flakes in, or around the duct ports? Yank off the air conditioning covers inside the front bay, and in the front (mci) battery compartment... any rust? Press on the dashboard, especially around the door opener, and at each window side.. any softness? Check the molding at the top of the windshields, any softness? Press on the inside walls... does it give, or is it solid? I wouldn't want to stick anyone with a rust bucket, but no bus refurbisher (including ABC Bus and MCI), strips the panels out to check for rust. It don't happen; they don't do it. There's ways to check for rust without going through a total disassembly process. But, if a guy is hell-bent on making a perfect conversion, then I suppose stripping the entire bus down to the last rivet is the way to go ...(?) The only problem in doing that, is that the time it takes to do all that, is usually 1,000,000 times more than a guy expects it should take. And, you'll find things you wish you never saw.. I remember a simple home job of replacing a perfectly good toilet with a new $150 water saving model... Three days and about $3,500+ later......... Ya'know how that goes? A bus is no different, just more expensive. Welcome to the madness! Do it your way, you won't be happy otherwise! Cheers! | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 134 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.240.213.191 Rating: N/A |
Good post JTNG. Similar to yesterday, also a good post. Thanx. Right on the money as far as I am concerned. RCB | ||
| Muddog16 (Muddog16)
Registered Member Username: Muddog16 Post Number: 349 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 4.224.174.145 Rating: N/A |
My turn! You're all right! (How's that for being politically correct?) I have to laugh about Johns comment pound on the wall and see if it rattles, when I drove it home every bump in the road sounded like it was coming apart, John at least I didn't injure my hand! My bus is 25 years old tired and been put up wet way to many times! I just flat out enjoy working on the bus or bus systems the work as far as I'm concerned is an equal part of it! Now even tho I have a bus it doesn't mean I'm completely crazy........but close! I keep having this vision of the long bus trip to Alaska. I want the bus to make the trip with as few a problems as possible! John, I agree with those health problems I sure didn't expect to be mortal so soon! But hell it happens! I've worked my entire life trying to become a craftsman, in some ways I succeeded others I didn't fair as well! One thing for sure I've managed to learn a great deal! Coming here to the bus crazed internet sites has been a whole new learning process. Building a bus......which is what I've been doing is like building a home, the foundation is the single most important part, without a good foundation everthing else is just camoflauge! There isn't one person on these boards that I haven't learned something from, whether it was the right way or the wrong way to do it! Simon, Steve, and John(who should have been a comedian) guys their you're busses, have at it and enjoy it! When that expensive paint job goes on I want it to look awesome, wellll.. mmmm.. good......how about just not embarrass me! And John, I'm stilllllll pounding out stupid rivets! Pat http://prevostlemirage.blogspot.com/ | ||
| Simon Ayriss (Design_dog)
Registered Member Username: Design_dog Post Number: 27 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 69.227.69.214 Rating: N/A |
For what it's worth update: I'll be the last one to tell anyone this stuff is barrell of fun but somehow I seemed to pound out two panels. I'm slowly getting better at it but not a 30 min. job for sure. If I do a panel or two every other day I'll be happy. Just as I did not predict - I was figuring I would find a little light rust after 30 years which I believe would be normal. After removing two panels today I discovered a rust area due to what must have been and OLD window leak, because it doesnt leak there now. All of that will be fixed. Again. All in agreeance, there is no right or wrong, just to each his own. I would have been happy building up the sides. But, as it turns out, to be a bit of a pain, I am glad now of removing the sides. After it's all over, I'll sleep better at night on my bus. I'll have more questions as I go and anyone with a few tips as to what to think of next then let me know. It's all good information for a first time converter, and I am open to learn. I'll post some photos when I get more along. Thanks again. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 302 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 66.217.106.107 Rating: N/A |
Simon - Save all the rust particles. You can sell it to Eagle owners for body filler! ($$$) | ||
| Simon Ayriss (Design_dog)
Registered Member Username: Design_dog Post Number: 28 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 69.227.69.214 Rating: N/A |
John. Are you sure your on the right board?? Maybe your thinking we're on the MAK board. (I guess we all have a twisted sense of humour. :-) Thanks for the all the posts. :-) Anyone wanna buy a bag of rust particles?? They come with a good 'converters bucket' and some bondo. basic busnut converters kit. Only $29.95 | ||
| steve gaines (Kysteve)
Registered Member Username: Kysteve Post Number: 93 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 74.140.165.225 Rating: N/A |
Simon, My bus has its fill of rust, but you should send it to John as he likes a little rust in his bus....lol.....he could put it out where he could see it then...lol.... People say claim they can here eagle buses rusting when they walk by them. But they are going to think they are going deaf when they walk by ours though!!!!....lol..... (Message edited by kysteve on April 26, 2007) | ||
| Ednj (Ednj)
Registered Member Username: Ednj Post Number: 157 Registered: 3-2003 Posted From: 67.85.229.237 Rating: N/A |
Simon, Here's the bucket story = http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/12261/12272.html?1136921660 . |