| Author | Message | ||
| R.C.Bishop (128.123.88.25)
Rating: N/A |
I am in the middle (SURE!) of a conversion and due to my upbringing, or whatever, am inclined to want to start, if not drive the critter for it's "monthly outing" (quote FF) on occasion. The batteries, a pair of 9HD's, are about shot, requiring a fast charger and my pickup to start it. Would like to purchase new batteries for the conversion process, but would hate like heck to see them go bad just because they are not taken care of properly; so, what do I need in the way of a solar or other charger to keep them up to snuff during the process? I estimate another year, maybe year and a half to complete. (Must have done by summer 2004, we have a date in Maine for the Arcadian Home Coming!!) Thanx in advance. RCB | ||
| Scott Whitney (66.214.66.193) Rating: N/A |
Why not just get a set of new batteries and go for a drive every now an then? I have not put my starting batteries on any special float charge or solar system. I drive it every couple weeks and sometimes a month will slip by btwn drives. Never had any trouble starting it. IMO, a good set of tires and good batteries should always be on the bus throughout the conversion process. A frequent drive does wonders for inspiration and keeps the batteries charged. . . not to mention forcing you to keep up on basic maintence items and not let them get backlogged and neglected. Scott | ||
| Pete (152.163.213.49)
Rating: N/A |
I'm in the middle of my conversion. All systems were up and running first ( so i know i didnt mess it up after it was closed in ) All main units like the water system, electric, vacume and sound was made to work but to upgrade and move if i changed my mind. BUT the new main batteries were the most important cause of having to run it around to get certin work done. like 8 new tires and other mechanical work. Now, I'm not religious except for Fast Freds words ( well some of them ) I start my rig 3 or 4 times a month but it has to sit for a bit, I found high idle for about an hr isnt so bad for a 871 that has 2.5 million miles on it. The shifter cap it worn and needs work so it gets stuck in gear sometimes ( a treat at the entrance of toal road) So until i get the cash to get it done..i let it run at high idle to charge all systems. Just one mans plight  Pete | ||
| Donald Schwanke (67.210.119.12)
Rating: N/A |
I had the same problem, spent a fortune on 8D while converting, they kept going bad. I found several things, a good automatic charger does wonders, it don't hurt to just jump it either. Scotts advice is best IF YOU CAN DO THAT. Harder when you are doing roof raise, caps, auto tranny conversion, etc. I finally changed from the 8D to a pair of Group 31, for whatever reason, they tend to stay up and cost far less. A friend with an Eagle just uses a pair of regular "car" batteries-much cheaper, works very well! | ||
| R.C.Bishop (128.123.88.34)
Rating: N/A |
I think we're all on the same wave link. Thanx for your input. What I am attempting to do is just keep batteries up to as near perfect as I can during the process of conversion, to avoid what Don experienced. Solar chargers, I am told are the cat's meow, but then comes the question of size, expense ( is it worth it ) and so on. Maybe we can all learn something on this. I'll keep you posted. RCB | ||
| FAST FRED (209.26.87.77) Rating: N/A |
Solar IS the way to go , a single big panel will do a sitting batt just fine. BUT be sure to purchase a volt regulator for the setup , big enough to handle 4 solar panels Thats enough for even electric refrigeration , should you decide to go that way. DRIVING the coach , once a month, for at least 100 miles to keep the engine , tranny and air systems happy , is my recomendation. NEVER have I said that a Hi Idle was anything bit BAD BAD BAD for your engine. It is preferable to use the pickeling mathod in Da DD Book , and let it sit , rather than ideling. Your shell may have 2+ million miles but an 8 V 71 is good for 350,000 factory fresh miles , perhaps 300,000 after a real good shop does an out of frame rebuild. Expect 200,000 to hopefully 250,000 fron an inframe overhall. Count every hour of ideling as 200 miles , esp when figguring oil changes. Much better to bring those heavy 8D's home & leave them on a charger than idle the engines life away. IF you live where its real warm , using a set of series 31 , could get you by , till you hit the road. 31's are cheap but lack the CCA to get you started in the cold with no block heater. Go Solar , and then buy a good set of START batts for your coach. FAST FRED | ||
| jmaxwell (66.42.93.21) Rating: N/A |
IMO go ahead and put your start batteries in, whichever type u decide on, and then keep them hooked up to a good floating charger (Schauer makes good ones, also EverStart makes one in 24v). Not all Grp 31's are cheap either. Mine were $87 each. Trojan 1100 CCA, 24 mo. free replacement warranty. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (128.123.88.33)
Rating: N/A |
But.......during the conversion process, would a small solar do the job to keep us able to travel monthly as recommended? And thanx for the regulator tip. This information is exactly what I am after. My bus has a round top and if I could use one of the flexible models, at least till I get to the point of getting serious with elecric stuff, it would be better not only on budget, but on being able to mount it in a temporary way. Mounting large panels is one of those things I have not even attempted to address. I intend to go with as large a solar system as I can stand financially in the future. Thanx Again. And welcome home, RJ, how was the Beach? RCB | ||
| RJ Long (24.127.8.58)
Rating: N/A |
Nice Expensive Mama was happy {:-) Lost our digital camera. . . Mama's not happy. . . 8^( RJ | ||
| Joe Laird (Joelaird) (205.188.200.41)
Rating: N/A |
RJ, Have followed your posts for a couple of years. We're coming up through there in a couple of weeks on our way home. Coffee? Lunch? Bus talk? Joe Laird akroyaleagle@aol.com | ||
| Donald Schwanke (67.210.125.6)
Rating: N/A |
Not too sure where FF came up with his opinion that group 31 batteries lack the CCA to start the bus in cold weather. The bus comes from GMC factory with a pair of 900 CCA batteries. The maint book also says that is what belongs there, mine start my bus better than any of the 8d I ever had. By my math, the 1100 CCA batteries don't lack anything over 8d. Also, the 8d's I had gave you almost no replacement guarantee, just mumbo jumbo. The group 31 has an 18 month free replacement guarantee. So, at even $180 a pair for the much better batteries than the $300 a pair for 8d, I would not change. Next time you see a great big 500 hp Cat powered Kenworth, take a look, yep, 2 little old Group 31 batteries do the trick - and in cold that I would never venture with a bus, in fact that is where I got the idea in the first place. | ||
| Stephen Fessenden (Sffess) (63.25.54.224)
Rating: N/A |
Whatever you do don't try to start the bus with bad batteries. Too hard on the starter, solenoids, cables and connections. I agree on group 31s for starting. Much lighter to carry home to charge. While the bus is laid up it is OK to get "seconds" from a Battery Distributor such as Interstate. Not a dealer, a distributor. They have enough returns to have good "seconds" to sell. About $25 for group 31, and $50 for 8Ds. You will problably toast your batteries some time in the conversion process anyway from forgetting to charge them right, so why buy new now. I was planning to replace my "seconds". They were supposed to be temporary, but they refuse to die so I am using them on the road. But my rule is, don't nurse bad batteries. Replace them right away. Be sure to switch the batteries off when not in use. | ||
| Pete (205.188.193.154)
Rating: N/A |
Fred, Didnt mean to say you said idle was bad..i meant about putting it on the road to keep things circulating..sometimes it just cant be done..but I'll remember that every hr is a 200 mile load..i didnt know that.And to just let it sit if not working on it..I like to test all systems to make sure it all woark before closing it in. I spiked a power harness last year and closed in the area and ended up ripping up the bunk and the floor to get to it on the road and it really sucked ( and Gf was a bit unhappy as well) I just landed a few large jobs so once i get the shifter cap fixed and limmit the possibility of it locking in gear on a warm up run I'll start taking it out. I'm waiting for a good rainy day to go over "da book " but we are in a drought . Pete | ||
| Scott Whitney (66.214.66.193) Rating: N/A |
We didn't have a drop all Feb. here on Central CA coast. Got dumped on yesterday. Took the bus out for a drive in the rain. I like testing her in good and bad conditions. . . besides, can't do much work in the rain. I did test out the new water tank location (under bed) by filling it up though. . . Any excuse for a drive! Scott | ||
| FAST FRED (209.26.87.56) Rating: N/A |
Don, I'm old enough to suffer from CRS , but not yet about busses. IN my DD book sect7.2 page 1 Oct 1989, Da DD BOOK SEZ 8V71 12V starting ABOVE 32F 1900 CCA 8v71 12V starting BELOW 32F 2500 CCA Thats Da Books Minimums! 900 CCA seems a bit light , even with a pair. Remember this is for a start with NO block heater , that if cold will take a couple of 15 second cranks , and then a cap of ether for the 3rd , and hopefully last try. Tiny batts also have very little reserve for age , over/under charging, normal coach life. NEW Batts will loose about 1% of their charge every day , old batts 3% per day. FAST FRED | ||
| Gene R. (12.13.175.46)
Rating: N/A |
If you try to use batts with too little or minimum cca's it will cause you problems!! It might not for several times but this is what happens. Amperage that is too low causes HEAT and a lot of it. The 1900 cca's that Fred talked about is the draw just when the starter begins to turn over the engine. We call it "spike amps". After the starter picks up speed, then the back generated electromagnetical forces (EMF'S) come into play, and then the starter will draw from about 500 to 700 amps depending on the condition of the starter itself. In this brief period when it first begins, the heat is so great that the wrappings on the field coils will begin to burn and provide a path to ground for the current. After a few times starting like this, you have a fire inside the starter for a few seconds and then, nothing, you are stranded. The starter might last for a while, but I promise it WILL fail because of low current even it seems to be starting just fine. In the fourty years of building the 40MT starters that are on the coaches,(trucks also-100 or so a mounth) we learned what to look for. Many, many times we would ask the customer with burned coils (with no other internal problems in the unit) what kind of batts he had. Guess what!!! MOST of the time they had car batts, just TWO group 31's, or one or two of the three in the group bad. I have never saw a truck with a decent size engine come from the factory with just two 31's. Some even had four.Some with small engines had less. All I ever seem had at least three 31's to have some reserve for colder starts. Not saying they didn't but I never saw one. We ALWAYS told the customer to bring the truck or coach by and let us check it after we built the starter. This was to see if he had corrected his batt problem so we could warranty the starter!!!!! At this time we would check the alt output for low output and ripple current to make sure the batts were getting the proper amount and the right kind of current. We always tested the batts too!!Too little current=no warranty. FWIW. Gene R. | ||
| Donald Schwanke (67.210.119.57)
Rating: N/A |
Challenge Fred: I bet I got more CRS than you do! As most of us are prone to do, I of course was talking only about 24 volt systems like mine, my error in not pointing that out. Although size and weight are of course important indicators, fact remains that ALL 8d and all 31s are not the same CCA. I just double checked, my 4905 book clearly states 900 CCA batteries, and them Gp 31, 1100 CCA will spin it longer than any of the three sets of Interstate 8d I had. Of course in the Kenworth, the system was 12v, two Gp 31 system. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (128.123.88.20)
Rating: N/A |
Gene R, how does what you said interplay with what Donald Schwanke wrote. I don't think he is disputing you but I think it would be interesting to see how this all plays out. A turn or two here I hadn't expected. Glad I asked the question. Thanx, RCB | ||
| Don KS/TX (67.210.119.3)
Rating: N/A |
I will jump in there too. I see no real conflict between our posts. Gene is 100 percent right when he says poor or inadequate batteries burn up starters. Often people will "get by" with batteries that barely turn the engine over. In a diesel, it is imperative that cranking speed be up to snuff. The only opinion I must disagree with is when he said "I have never saw a truck with a decent size engine come from the factory with just two 31's." I have seen plenty! The company that makes the Kenworths and Petes with far larger engines than most of our buses sure does, or at least did a few years ago. I agree that for extreme cold weather useage, some provide a SPACE for a third Gp 31 if you wish to add it. I forgot we have Canadians and Alaskans on this board too, perhaps Gene is even from that part of the country. Of course if possible, a block heater is a far better idea than an "extra" battery. | ||
| Scott Whitney (66.214.66.193) Rating: N/A |
BTW, I think everyone who has posted on this thread knows this, but for lurking readers who might not know. . . 'Don KS/TX' is the same Don as 'Donald Schwanke'. I only point this out because I was a bit confused when I first was getting to 'know' Don by his posts and thru e-mail. (But maybe I'll get to meet him in person in KS this spring!) Scott | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces) (12.146.33.128)
Rating: N/A |
Hi, I got to this post a bit late because we were on a trip most of March. I think that diesels have to be cranked fast enough to start properly, alright. If a person tries cranking them with insufficient voltage, the current that the starter draws is damaging to the starter system and the batteries. If the cranking speed falls too low, injection and conpression become so low that the engine can't be started. Ether works because it not only lowers ignition temperature, it is a fuel itself, so slow turning engines can start anyway. Sometimes, when an engine cranks slow, the solenoid contacts fuse and the starter won't turn off. That's good for creating a panic. Good batteries avoid this. Heating the engine is very effective for getting it started, but you have to heat up a ton of iron. This takes a few BTUs. If you can preheat the air, it takes far less energy to get up to the point of ignition. If the oil is not so stiff as to slow the engine to the point it will not inject, it is much easier to get the engine started. Caution should be excercised when it comes to preheating the air and trying to use ether. The combination should be avoided. I am one of those Alaskans on this board and some of us are very familiar with heating intake air. It usually works fine on the tiredest 2 strokes, and it doesn't do any further damage to them like ether can. They don't even get addicted to heat! Why do you think engines that need heat to start use glow plugs? It takes a lot less energy putting the heat right where it is needed. FWIW Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 |