| Author | Message | ||
| Don Evans (Doninwa)
Registered Member Username: Doninwa Post Number: 46 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 65.61.96.82 Rating: N/A |
Thought maybe George Todd or Sean would suggest what type 1" hydronic valves I should be looking for. Did you use solenoid or motorized valves? Solenoids would be simpler to wire but consume some power when activated. Does a Webasto have a built in pump and is it enough for a 3 zone system with block heat ect and the long runs? If not, what are you using for pumps. My 4107 is all 12 volt. Thanks Don 4107 | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 576 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.28 Rating: N/A |
"Did you use solenoid or motorized valves?" Neither -- all the valves in my hydronic system are completely manual. Also, after initial adjustment of the system (fiddling with the various bypass valves in different weather conditions until things worked the way we wanted), I haven't had to open, close, or change a valve setting in three years, other than the main "Summer/Winter" valve. This is also a manual valve, located in a bay. I move it to "Summer" when we travel in warm climates, and "Winter" only when we know we will need heat in the coach. I'm not sure, in a 40-45' coach, why you'd need remotely operated valves. Having multiple zone loops that can be independently closed is really overkill in this application. We have one big loop that runs expansion tank -> pump -> boiler -> engine heat exchanger -> water heater -> hot tub heat exchanger -> XXX -> fan heater 1 -> fan heater 2 -> fan heater 3 -> radiant heater -> fan heater 4 -> fan heater 5 -> back to expansion tank. The "XXX" is the location of the "Summer/Winter" valve, which is a diverter valve (one input, choice of two outputs). Selecting "Summer" diverts the flow from that point right back to the expansion tank, bypassing all the heaters. Selecting "Winter" makes the coolant flow through the entire loop. "Zoned heat" is achieved completely electrically, by only turning the fans on for selected heaters. We chose to have only two zones, one for the living room/kitchen areas and one for the bedroom/bath areas. There is a forward thermostat and a rear thermostat, and the fans run (or not) depending on those thermostats. This two-zone system has been perfectly adequate for us, and our hydronic system has never given us any trouble or let us down in three years. I would not do it any other way. "Does a Webasto have a built in pump and is it enough for a 3 zone system with block heat ect and the long runs?" The built-in pump on the Webasto is not enough to run anything at all, really. You'll need an external circulating pump. Ours was supplied by Sure Marine, who supplied a lot of the miscellaneous bits of our hydronic system, and I am sorry but I don't have the model or spec on it. Basically, any good Webasto dealer ought to be able to size a pump for you based on the length and diameter of hose and pipe in your system, as well as the number of 90's and the size and number of devices such as heaters and exchangers. Sure Marine also supplied the control box for our system -- really just a few relays operated by thermostats in the coolant loop and on the water heater. One feature of our system is bi-directional use of the engine heat exchanger. By turning on only the hydronic circulating pump while driving, we get all the free hot water and heat we need. When parked, a separate small electric circulating pump in the main engine coolant loop can be activated to provide engine pre-heat when the main hydronic system is running on the Webasto. HTH. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Donn Reeves (Donnreeves)
Registered Member Username: Donnreeves Post Number: 7 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 69.115.76.219 Rating: N/A |
I used standard Honeywell residential zone valves in my system. They are 24vac and require a 120vac to 24vac transformer to operate them. The advantage to them is tht they have a built in relay that turns on the furnace,which in this case is a Pro-Heat, that does have a circulator pump big enough to do the job.I use one valve each for heat, hot water and engine pre-heat. The system is totally automatic, just set the temps and walk away. The only problem so far is that it doesn't pull enough current to wake up the inverter.I had to set it to 5 watts. Donn | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 220 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 76.168.69.233 Rating: N/A |
Don, After reading the above two posts, I can't add much more. They are slightly different systems, and obviously both work well. Advice: I have just looked at a 6000 sf house where a non-qualified owner put in a chilled water cooling, and hot water heating system. Two five ton chillers, a 130,000 BTU Polaris 95% stainless water heater, and 6 air handlers between 2 and 4 tons. No warm floors. The condensing section is a large pond with a waterfall. You've probably already figured out that the reason he's had me look at it is because it doesn't work. The chillers have 1" pipe connections, so he teed the two of them together with 1" pipe, all with standard short-radius water fittings. The distribution piping is a brand of aluminum sandwich PEX, (I'm not mentioning their name, because its not their fault.) This pipe uses brass fittings, and their 90s will fit a square, the radius is SO short. When he tried to run the system last summer, one chiller freezes and locks out on a fault code, the other ran two air handlers, and he got a $1000.00 (no typo) increase in his PG&E bill. So, if you use zoning valves, WATCH THE PORT SIZE in addition to the pipe size, they make 3/4 valves with 3/8 ports, which you DON'T want, and buy long-radius copper pipe 90s from a refrigeration supply house. A 3/4 pipe fitting to a plumber is a 7/8 fitting to a refrigeration mechanic, as one uses ID, and one uses OD. Glad to answer further, either on or off, look at the posts on generator cooling also! George | ||
| Don Evans (Doninwa)
Registered Member Username: Doninwa Post Number: 47 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 65.61.96.82 Rating: N/A |
George, Tees are one of my concerns too. I don't see a way to build a manifold without them. My plan is to use the existing run and return to the front heater/defroster as the main supply and return loop. I would then tee off with a valve near each zone and tee into the return also. It would take a bit of balancing the valves or electric controls to only allow one zone on at a time. My plan is to have the output of the boiler/engine heat exchanger running through the hot water tank then to the other zones so hot water would always be available. Should also 'smooth out' the operation of the boiler. Sean, We like fooling around in the mountains and sea shores. We also like a cool bedroom but plan on using it for other things too. In our first bus we found the need for a bit of heat in the mornings and evenings common and the need for cooling during the day. Wife is temp sensitive. Hope some day to go way north. Maybe a simpler system like yours with a single electrically controlled heat/cool bypass valve would work for someone as lazy as me. Food for thought. I am going to take a stab at getting enough convection flow from the engine side of the heat exchanger to eliminate the extra pump for preheating the block. Hence the need to control flow through the exchanger to not heat the block all the time. On a travel day I would want to turn on the block heat early without going outside to do it. Donn, It seems to me that someone was using some type of 24vac valve at 12vdc and made it work but I have not been able to find the thread or which board it was on. Going 24vac would make it easy to use off the shelf stuff. I am going to do some testing with a 24vac solenoid to see what happens with 12vdc. Thanks all, Don 4107 (Message edited by doninwa on July 05, 2007) (Message edited by doninwa on July 05, 2007) | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 164 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 4.240.214.217 Rating: N/A |
Got my pump....from a Semi Tractor...and my Webasto from Ron...the Busnut. Has worked great for a number of years. No problems and lotsa fluid moved to preheat engine, w/h and heat exchangers while warming the engine. FWIW  RCB | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 577 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.33 Rating: N/A |
"We also like a cool bedroom but plan on using it for other things too." I'm not gonna touch that one "Maybe a simpler system like yours with a single electrically controlled heat/cool bypass valve would work for someone as lazy as me." The diverter valve is a substantial piece. To do it inexpensively electrically, I would use one NO and one NC solenoid valve on a manifold, rather than try to source an electrically operated diverter. But It would be just as easy to use a manual one, and put the handle in a closet or cabinet. Ours happens to be in the bay, but it did not need to be. By the way, we find that on those days when we feel we will need a bit of heat at night, having the coolant flowing through the whole system full time does not really add too much heat into the coach. So, again, I would not worry too much about having ready access to the Summer/Winter valve. "I am going to take a stab at getting enough convection flow from the engine side of the heat exchanger to eliminate the extra pump for preheating the block." Not to discourage the research, but I don't think this will work very well. An electric pump to do the job is on the order of $40 (it does not take much flow volume). As I said earlier, we have no valves in our system, which means we always flow coolant through the heat exchanger. Yet almost no heat makes it to the engine -- there is just no convective flow at all (granted, our heat exchanger is very close to the top of the system, but still). "It seems to me that someone was using some type of 24vac valve at 12vdc and made it work but I have not been able to find the thread or which board it was on." We use irrigation valves, which are nominally 24VAC, on 24VDC with no problem. Most magnetic solenoids made for AC will also work on DC. The only way to find out if 12 volts is enough to pull the plunger, though, is to hook one up and try it out. Each valve will be different, due to different plunger springs, magnets, windings, etc. so there is no universal answer. HTH. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Michael Sheldon (Msheldon)
Registered Member Username: Msheldon Post Number: 42 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 68.230.115.166 Rating: N/A |
I don't know where you get your irrigation valves, but all the ones I've ever used are DC | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 578 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.33 Rating: N/A |
"all the ones I've ever used are DC" Virtually every residential irrigation valve is specified at 24VAC. That includes popular brands such as RainBird and Toro, found at home improvement centers such as Home Depot and Lowes. Here is one spec: http://www.rainbird.com/landscape/products/valves/dv_series.htm Scroll down to "Specifications" and note the sixth bullet point: "24 VAC 50/60 Hz (cycles per second) solenoid power requirement:" I'm using RainBird valves. I got them at Home Depot (though they no longer seem to carry them, and I have had to go to Lowes to get parts -- see here: http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com/2006/03/lowes-vs-home-depot.html). And they are definitely 24VAC. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Donn Reeves (Donnreeves)
Registered Member Username: Donnreeves Post Number: 8 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 69.115.76.219 Rating: N/A |
When I first put my system togeather, it had 3/4" copper tubing with long sweep 90's and y's instead of t's, to minimize flow restrictions.I also used the max flow Honeywell zone valves that have a true 3/4" passage, as opposed to the normal ones that neck down to 3/8". I used baseboard radiators, but soon found that I couldn't get enough linial feet to work when the outside temps hit the low 20's. I addes three kick heaters using monoflow t's that greatly reduce the flow with no ill effects. I then added a heat excanger to the return line to preheat the fresh water going to the water heater,adding more resistance,again with no problem. The point is that you don't have to go nuts about flow restiction, just don't totally ignore it. I have some spare Honeywell zone valves. I will try running them on 12Vdc to see what happens. Donn | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 221 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 76.168.69.233 Rating: N/A |
Don, This has sure gotten productive responses! A year ago there was a request for help from someone who had a 40K Web and two 25K fan coils, and couldn't heat his bus at 40 deg. ambient. Also, the Web cycled on and off, with both fans running. (They were plumbed in parallel, I asked.) As information, fan coils and baseboards are rated at NET output, at about 70 deg entering air, and 140 entering water, at a published flow rate. Raising the water temperature, or lowering the intake air temperature, INCREASES the output. So, hydronic systems put out more heat when it is cold, (up to the output of the burner.) Almost all heating appliances are rated at INPUT BTU, and I would size your burner at 80% or less efficiency. Back to the poorly working hydronic system, as you can see, it had a heat output capability of 50K, with an input of about 32K, which should have heated an 8' X 40' bus quickly. As it didn't, and the Web cycled, this indicates very low water flow, as the upper limit of the Web is 167 degrees I believe. (At 167 water, and a little less than 70 air, ONE 25K fan coil would put out 32K!) The owner was going to enlarge his pipe and change to long radius fittings, and as I don't remember hearing any more, it must have worked? Donn's works well, as described, with a couple of standard tees, and other restrictions, BECAUSE he used LR 90s and full flow valves! Also, (by deduction) his pump is big enough! My first thought about an AC valve on DC is that the coil would over heat, but since it has been done successfully, why not? Good luck, George | ||
| Donn Reeves (Donnreeves)
Registered Member Username: Donnreeves Post Number: 9 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 69.115.76.219 Rating: N/A |
I tried the 24vac zone valves on 12vdc and they do not work. These are motoized valves not solinoid operated. Donn | ||
| James Smith (Tomcat)
Registered Member Username: Tomcat Post Number: 41 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.13 Rating: N/A |
I agree George, this has been a great thread. I have suffered from the bitter Colorado cold, fulltiming in my coach the past two years, and this year have a plan to beat it. I recently found a deal on a new Proheat X45, as well as two Myson hydronic toekicks ranging from 2700-5000btu, which when tied to the coach heater core and engine, will give me a good edge over the -25* temps I usually see. Add the two Cadet 1000 watt electric toekicks I already have, along with heated Italian tile floors, and I should be pretty warm this year. I'm using 1 inch coach heater hose plumbed into summer/winter valves at the engine, a extra circulating pump at the rear, and the Proheat mounted just behind my front bumper. Having a battery tie switch will allow me to run the Proheat, coach heater fans and water pump when parked, slaving off the house batteries. I bought monoflow tee's for the inlet side, and open tee's on the returns. I also plan to use split foam insulation on all the 1 inch hose runs from front to rear. Now if I can find a 20-30 gallon diesel tank to feed the Proheat I'll be ready to start putting it all together. Jay 87 SaftLiner | ||
| Don Evans (Doninwa)
Registered Member Username: Doninwa Post Number: 51 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 65.61.96.82 Rating: N/A |
Glad to see the post made it back to the main board. I suppose the title made it sound like I was trying to buy or sell something. Sean the 'other bedroom activity' is a computer work station/desk/place for the wife to get away from me if/when she feels so inclined!!!! I have found some 24vac diverter valves but they are pricey. I would like to use one type valve in the whole system to make spares/repairs simpler so two valves would be the way to go for me. Maybe with some thought a 24vac control system would be the way to go. A relay to turn on the 24vac transformer only when needed to cycle a motorized valve would mean much more commonly available parts and pieces with no current draw except when opening or closing a valve. I have a marine type heat exchanger coming that is tubular. 18" long. Back in the bad old days when something had to run to feed the stock I learned that the then popular universal fit tank type block heater worked much better the lower it was mounted. If it does not work well I can always add the pump. By the way, I assume your engine side pump must run when underway and something is calling for heat. What type pump is it? $40 sounds real reasonable. As soon as you mentioned the sprinkler valves it all came back about you using 24vac valves on DC. CRS again. I took your advise on the Open Office for my system diagrams. As you said a bit of a learning curve but it works pretty well for me now. Thanks for the heads up. Hard yo put a price on the exchange of info from you guys and gals. Much more food for thought. Many dead ends I won't have to go down. Thanks to all for the info. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 580 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.21 Rating: N/A |
"...I assume your engine side pump must run when underway and something is calling for heat..." Actually, no, because the engine side of the heat exchanger gets plenty of flow from the engine water pump. The little auxiliary pump only needs to run to pre-heat the engine, because then, of course, the engine is not yet running and so there is no flow from its own water pump. Our entire system runs with two switches (and two household thermostats). One, which is SPDT, center-off, turns on the main hydronic pump in either "on" switch position. One way, it just runs the pump, and the other way, it also runs the Webasto itself. The second switch, SPST, turns on the little aux pump to circulate the main engine coolant. Both switches came in a little panel from Sure Marine. The main switch is labeled "System Heat," "Off," and "Engine Heat," while the other one is labeled "Engine Pre-Heat." Glad to hear Open Office is working for you -- wish it had been available when I did my drawings. On moving the thread, Ian did confess, when he responded to my request, that the thread title led him to believe it was a "parts wanted" post. Regarding the sprinkler valves, and George's comment about coil overheating: This is a valid concern, and I should have mentioned that my irrigation valves get very intermittent use (on for 10-15 seconds, then off for hours), so heating of the solenoid coils is not a problem in my application. For a hydronic control valve, which will likely be in the "on" position for many minutes or even hours on end, this could be a problem, and I would meter the current draw of any such valve on DC to make sure it is below the coil's listed rating before using the valve in that application. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Nick Badame Refrigeration Co. (Dnick85)
Registered Member Username: Dnick85 Post Number: 143 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 75.196.2.143 Rating: N/A |
Hi Guy's, Just to spill my brain on the table with all the great master minds here.. Don, maybe it would be easier to just add another boiler/Proheat to be dedicated for your coach heating. I just did this this past winter and eliminated a whole bundle of wires and valves. Used Proheats are cheap from bus companys. My thoughts were to not consume energy while there was no call for heat. [zone valves, circ pumps,] I use one Proheat x45 for the H20 and engine and the other one is deticated for my hydronic heat coil in my duct system. Good Luck Nick- | ||
| Donn Reeves (Donnreeves)
Registered Member Username: Donnreeves Post Number: 10 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 69.115.76.219 Rating: N/A |
Power draw hasen't been a problem running the 120vac to 24vac transformer and motorized zone valves. They collectively draw less than 10 watts, and only when calling for heat or hot water. I'm running a relitivly small house battrey bank of 300AH and have run the refrig and the heat for 30 hours with power to spare.I built the system exactly like a residential hydronic heat system. I just substituted a Pro-Heat XL-45 for a Weil- McLain boiler. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 581 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.19 Rating: N/A |
As a bit of further information, I received an off-line email from someone with experience installing Webasto systems. He writes that to get get a full flow solenoid valve you really need to use a diaphragm type valve where the solenoid acts as a pilot and the valve is opened by the fluid pressure. On the subject of using AC coils on DC, he also looked in the Skinner catalog and found a couple of examples for a specific valve: V5624F24 - 24 volts AC or 6 volts DC V5634F24 - 240 volts AC or 74 volts DC Just passing it along. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 222 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.81.59 Rating: N/A |
Sean, Thanks for the usual specific research! I wouldn't have had an idea of how to compensate for the lack of inductance, not to mention not being sure if I even knew what I was talking about...? KUTGW, George | ||
| Don Evans (Doninwa)
Registered Member Username: Doninwa Post Number: 53 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 209.216.188.152 Rating: N/A |
'He writes that to get get a full flow solenoid valve you really need to use a diaphragm type valve where the solenoid acts as a pilot and the valve is opened by the fluid pressure.' Sean, I had noticed those valves but it looked to me that they require more pressure differential to operate than a hydronic system has. The Sprinkler valves you use in your hot water return system are probably diaphragm valves. Dropping 12vdc to 6vdc to operate a solenoid would be easy. Have to give that a try too. Thanks | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 124 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 151.213.165.17 Rating: N/A |
I have used 24 vac sprinkler valves and 24vac realays on 12 vdc with no apparent problems. I use a sprinkler valve with a washing machine level switch to fill my water tank. Len | ||
| Dale Houston (Songman)
Registered Member Username: Songman Post Number: 14 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 70.92.99.202 Rating: N/A |
Great thread! I've been researching the best way to plumb in my Hurricane. I learned a lot here. Thanks guys! | ||
| Nick Badame Refrigeration Co. (Dnick85)
Registered Member Username: Dnick85 Post Number: 148 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 75.198.196.7 Rating: N/A |
Guy's, Are sprinkler valves able to handle 180 degrees without having issues? or worse? I have never used theese and I'm thinking that they are designed for ambiant temps. Correct me if I'm wrong. Nick- | ||
| Don Evans (Doninwa)
Registered Member Username: Doninwa Post Number: 54 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 64.146.93.242 Rating: N/A |
Nick, I think you are right. As I understand it, Sean is using it to feed the cold water standing in the line back to the fresh water holding tank until the hot water gets there, to save the water. I doubt a little shot of warm turning hot water is going to hurt them but would not try to use them for continuous flow. Next time I'm in the Home Depot I will have to check and see if there is a temp rating. Don't think there is enough pressure in a hydronic system to operate them anyway. Don 4107 | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 584 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 208.178.75.194 Rating: N/A |
Just to confirm: yes, I use the irrigation valves for my domestic water "pre-heat" system, which allows me to get hot water at the sink or shower without wasting the fresh water sitting in the line, or the space in the gray tank that it would use up. So the valves see only intermittent service, and mostly tepid water, with an upper limit of 150 or so (outlet temperature of the water heater). Also, there is zero static pressure on the outlet side of the valve, as this just drains back to the fresh tank -- irrigation valves will not work if there is any pressure on the outlet side. I posted that tidbit not because I thought these valves could be used in a hydronic system (I don't), but because Don was trying to remember where he read about someone using AC solenoids on DC, and I thought it might have been these. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com |