| Author |
Message |
christopher l cole sr. (Muziklvr)
Registered Member
Username: Muziklvr
Post Number: 67
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 69.137.91.40
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 7:38 pm: | |
anyone got any ideas on what would cause a bus to not restart after running great for two hours???? fired up as soon as i hit the start button this morning(first time it had been started in about 5-6 wks).she ran great.shut her off.when i went to restartabout 2 hours later....NOTHING!!!it will not even turn over.LOW air warning light is on.i have placed batteries on a charge to see if that may help.any ideas would be great!! local codes guy came by and said i needed to move it further up my driveway.as any busnut knows a codes enforcement *$$h@#% is bad news!!! |
David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member
Username: Dmd
Post Number: 193
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 96.232.83.239
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 8:03 pm: | |
did you try the rear start button or switch? any clicking noises? block your tires before you work in the rear! check your cables espec. the grounds. do you have a seperate ign. switch and then a start switch ? check them for power and you can try jumping the solonoid at the starter also,if you can reach it. good luck |
Jerry Liebler (Jerry_liebler)
Registered Member
Username: Jerry_liebler
Post Number: 280
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 67.141.38.149
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 8:21 pm: | |
Christopher,
I had exactly the same symptoms. It turned out I had a totally destroyed starter due to a stuck start button. The starter was attempting to start the bus for the last 50 miles I'd driven after stopping close to home for fuel. The only good news was I got the starter rebuilt at a local shop fo only $165.
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120 |
Pete/RTS Daytona (Pete_rtsdaytona)
Registered Member
Username: Pete_rtsdaytona
Post Number: 402
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 208.118.14.97
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 8:43 pm: | |
Jerry
Been there / done that / mine only ran for 10 mins/ I feel your pain
Mine was a stuck starter solenoid contact - don't keep on trying to start a bus when the batteries are low - It welds the contacts closed |
Debbie and Joe Cannarozzi (Joe_camper)
Registered Member
Username: Joe_camper
Post Number: 55
Registered: 10-2006
Posted From: 71.239.202.82
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 9:21 pm: | |
Make sure that the smaller wire that leads to the starter is still attatched. My end terminal there broke once doing the same thing. |
Glenn Williams (Glenn)
Registered Member
Username: Glenn
Post Number: 78
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 216.163.56.213
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 9:48 pm: | |
My 4905 did the same thing. Just like Joe says, check the small wire that attaches to the starter solonid for a good connection. My 4905 and my MCI 7 use a wire with a screw loop to attach it to the starter and it was a real pain to reach with my short arms from inside the bus. |
Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member
Username: Gusc
Post Number: 497
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 63.97.117.48
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 9:55 pm: | |
I fear also that your starter solenoid stuck. Happened to me but by sheer luck I just happened to turn it off right after starting and realized what was happening. I quickly ran around and disconnected the batteries. I also installed separate battery cutoff switches right after that too! I'm a slow learner but I do catch on eventually.
In my case I had used the rear engine comp start switch and accidentally left it on. It is supposed to be a momentary on switch but is not. It is getting changed tomorrow!! A push button switch probably would work just as well but since my switch panel is pretty loose I'll use a MO toggle. |
Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member
Username: Gusc
Post Number: 498
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 63.97.117.48
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 9:57 pm: | |
One more thought. Your starter relay may have failed. If so that is far better news than the starter.
It is located in the rear right hand electrical compartment. Your manual has a good photo showing the locations of all components. It is a scary looking place but not too bad once you get it labeled-all depends on what has been done before you. |
Mark R. Obtinario (Cowlitzcoach)
Registered Member
Username: Cowlitzcoach
Post Number: 162
Registered: 4-2001
Posted From: 204.245.228.226
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 11:10 pm: | |
This may be a dumb question but is your transmission in neutral? |
Jim & Linda Callaghan (Jimc)
Registered Member
Username: Jimc
Post Number: 38
Registered: 2-2004
Posted From: 68.118.157.210
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 21, 2007 - 11:11 pm: | |
Hi
I can't offer any advice about wether your problem is the solenoid or not, but the PO / builder of my 4106 knew of those issues and installed a light on the dash that is only lit when the starter solenoid is activated. If it were to stay lit after starting hopefully I would have enough time to turn it off. That is one more reason to have the bus aired up prior to starting.
Jim |
john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member
Username: Chessie4905
Post Number: 737
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 71.58.117.21
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 2:20 pm: | |
You could have a bad connection where the main wire goes through the bulkhead in front of the engine via a double ended stud, or the battery ground connection in the battery box to body may need cleaned. Could be a bad or dirty starter button. You can take a battery jumper cable ( only use one half of the pair) hook one end to the small wire connection on the starter solenoid and touch the other end to the big stud on the starter where the big wire connects. You'll get some spark when doing this but it should turn over if batteries and main solenoid are ok. MAKE SURE IT IS IN NEUTRAL WITH BRAKES APPLIED AND IGNITION KEY OFF. That way it will turn over without starting. If it won't turn over, then you have low batteries, bad batteries, or connection problems, or if the voltage and current are ok, possibly a bad starter if it stuck on as above If if turns over ok, then you need to check that small start relay in voltage regulator box- common for them to malfunction; either no start or will make starter keep cranking even after you let off the button. Remember, there is battery voltage at the big stud on the starter AT ALL TIMES. The starter button engages the relay in the regulator box, which engages the solenoid on the starter itself. I'm assuming that it still has the origional drive train. |
Craig (Ceieio)
Registered Member
Username: Ceieio
Post Number: 307
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 206.212.230.165
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 2:27 pm: | |
I had a failure-to-crank problem that would only appear after the bus had been run for a while. If the bus sat for awhile (overnight?) it would crank fine.
The problem turned out to be a sticky fuel pressure switch that prevents the starter from running when the engine has started (fuel pressure over 8 lbs means the engine is running). Check your schematic to see if your bus has one of these. If so, jumper it across the two terminals and see if the bus will crank.
Mine was threaded into the mounting block for the fuel filters.
Craig - MC7 Oregon |
Bob Wies (Ncbob)
Registered Member
Username: Ncbob
Post Number: 230
Registered: 2-2006
Posted From: 75.200.151.1
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 5:40 pm: | |
Chris, I'd look for the items that would stop it from cranking. What position is the rear switch in? It won't start from the front if that switch is in the rear start position. Might just be stuck starter brushes. Give the starter a smart rap with a 2# hammer and try again. These 40 & 50 MT starters have a history of hung brushes. If I can help..I'm only over in Franklin. Give me a call (828) 371-8535.
NCbob |
Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member
Username: Jackconrad
Post Number: 649
Registered: 12-2000
Posted From: 76.1.180.218
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 6:39 pm: | |
You need to use a systematic approach to check the start system.. You say "it does nothing". Do you hear any clicking at all from the rear of the bus? If not, after putting the bus in neutral, try jumping the solenoid terminal (small wire) to the large positive terminal on the starter. If the starter does not spin, check the voltage at the big terminal on the starter when trying to start. If you have adequate voltage, check the starter ground cable connections. If the starter works, the problem in not the starter. If this is the case you need a schematic and start checking each connection and component in the start circuit i.e. start switches, starter relay, neutral start switch(if automatic), etc. Jack |
christopher l cole sr. (Muziklvr)
Registered Member
Username: Muziklvr
Post Number: 68
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 69.137.91.40
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 8:31 pm: | |
thanks to all the advice!!! the bus is in N,when i turn start switch to on and push the start button i do hear i "ping".i then try it from the rear,same thing.kind of like the starter is trying to engage but can't?!?!?!? so then i tapped on it with a hammer, hit the button ,it turned over once.then back to the ping noise!i'll try to check some of these other test out tomorrow.thanks guys!!!if you have any other ideas let me know!! |
Jack Campbell (Blue_goose)
Registered Member
Username: Blue_goose
Post Number: 47
Registered: 5-2007
Posted From: 71.101.55.168
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 9:17 pm: | |
Get a bigger hammer |
Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member
Username: Gusc
Post Number: 499
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 63.97.117.45
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 9:29 pm: | |
A 4104 will NOT start in gear no matter what, it will not even turn the engine over one time! So,make sure it is actually in neutral. Even when the shift lever appears to be in neutral it sometimes is not.
I'm beginning to suspect it is actually in gear and that keeps the engine from turning over. If you have spring parking brakes air up the bus with shop air, release the brake and see if the bus will move any. If you still have the original mechanical parking brake it is much easier, just release the brake and see if it will move.
Sounds as if your starter pinion shaft could be gummed up with old oil and dirt that keeps it from sliding into engagement with the flywheel.
Does the starter motor spin without engaging the flywheel?
I'm not sure what the "ping" noise is unless it is the starter gear hitting the teeth on the flywheel.
A 4104 doesn't have a fuel pressure switch that cuts off the starting circuit.
As stated previously, the starter is connected directly to the battery and if the solenoid or relay contacts are fused the starter won't stop turning.
(Message edited by gusc on September 22, 2007) |
niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member
Username: Niles500
Post Number: 784
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 72.91.168.92
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 9:49 pm: | |
Bendix or solenoid? |
Paul Lawry (Dreamscape)
Registered Member
Username: Dreamscape
Post Number: 132
Registered: 5-2007
Posted From: 64.40.222.139
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 10:38 pm: | |
You say "the starter tries to engage but can't." If the starter tries to engage you would hear it running. If it does engage but does not turn over the engine make sure it is in neutral. I know you said it was, I'm only saying this from my experience with my Eagle. I thought it was in neutral, but in reality it was not. Had to move the shifter around a few times, 2-3, 3-4, back to 1st and so on. How many times have you tried it? Was the solenoid or starter warm? Cables warm?
I'm just thinking outloud. Hope this helps in some small way.
Let us know when you fix it.
Paul |
Jim Wilke (Pd41044039)
Registered Member
Username: Pd41044039
Post Number: 187
Registered: 2-2001
Posted From: 216.83.242.107
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 11:51 am: | |
If you hear the PING noise up front, it COULD be the sound of a (self resetting) circuit breaker tripping. If so, it could take 30 sec to a minute to reset as it cools down.
As Gus mentions, a 4104 is a real simple beast. Make sure it is really in N (if it's a stick shift you can turn the engine by hand with the fan blade.) If it turns even a half revolution, it's in N. Then jump the "S" terminal on the starter solenoid to the big batt terminal. If it cranks the starter & solenoid are O.K. and then you can back it up the drive out of B & Z's way. If it doesn't crank, remove the starter/solenoid & have it rebuilt. Might as well do it in your driveway instesd of on the roadside or in a parking lot in a bad neighborhood at night!
If it did start & you try it about 10 times & it starts nicely by jumping, then your issue is between the start button & the solenoid. There are several connections & junction boxes in that circuit and it probably is a connection or switch and not the wire itself.
Jim-Bob ('59 4104) |
Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member
Username: Gusc
Post Number: 500
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 63.97.117.20
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 1:59 pm: | |
What Jim says plus there is a starter relay in the rear elect compartment. The start button activates this relay which activates the starter solenoid. Check this for operation.
Check all battery cable connections all the way from the batteries to the starter including the bulkhead carry through connections. I did this with my 4104 and it made a world of difference. Most of these probably have not been cleaned since new!
Make double sure all these connections are clean including the battery posts and clamps. Battery posts will build up a dark/black corrosion layer over time no matter what you do. They may appear to be clean but aren't, they need to be shiny when first connected even though they won't stay this way very long.
Corrosion/resistance gets hot when exposed to high current either from the batteries or alternator and this makes them even more resistant.
Whatever it is be sure to let us other 4104 drivers know for future reference. |
christopher l cole sr. (Muziklvr)
Registered Member
Username: Muziklvr
Post Number: 69
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 69.137.91.40
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 8:32 pm: | |
well,i spent all afternoon cleaning all conections from batteries to starterand from batts to terminal/junction block in the compartment behind left front wheel.water level in both batts was a little low,fill to proper level. my battery charger says both batts have a full charge. once finished, i tried to start bus from engine bay....she turned over about half a turn,then just that darned old clicking/pinging noise again like it doesn't have enough amps to turn the srarter over!?!?!?!???? had the bus for about a year now,and never had a start problem like this before,or a start problem at all for that matter. if the starter were sticking it wouldn't let it try to turn over sometimes, and then not would it???? the starter is the newer style of that were used on the 671.there were two previous styles to this one according to my manuals.i guess i will try to check the relay in the electrical compartment tomorrow.oh! btw it is for sure in neautral!!! |
Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member
Username: Jackconrad
Post Number: 650
Registered: 12-2000
Posted From: 76.1.180.218
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 8:41 pm: | |
What is your battery voltage while trying to energize the starter? |
H3-40 (Ace)
Registered Member
Username: Ace
Post Number: 684
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 75.200.126.238
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 9:45 pm: | |
I had the same problem on my eagle. It turned out to be a bad ground. Fixed the ground from the batts and started every time! Grounds DO go bad from becoming loose or corroded!
Ace |
Paul Lawry (Dreamscape)
Registered Member
Username: Dreamscape
Post Number: 135
Registered: 5-2007
Posted From: 166.128.6.50
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 10:25 pm: | |
After reading and re-reading your last post I tend to think your batteries or battery has a bad cell. Have you done a load test on your batts? Do you have a hydrometer to check condition of your cells? Like Ace said, you must have a good ground. Check the voltage at the starter like Jack said while starting it. Hard to determine what is wrong sometimes when trying to troubleshoot through cyber-space. |
christopher l cole sr. (Muziklvr)
Registered Member
Username: Muziklvr
Post Number: 70
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 69.137.91.40
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 10:40 pm: | |
if my starter is frozen up,would the starter gear still engage and hit the flywheel??????? that is what it sounds like. i jumped the S wire on the solenoid to the big terminal on the starter....same as when i try to start from front or rear...."PING" like the gear is hitting the teeth on the flywheel but i DO NOT hear the starter spinning. getting good voltage.i guess i need to take the starter to have it rebuilt huh? |
christopher l cole sr. (Muziklvr)
Registered Member
Username: Muziklvr
Post Number: 71
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 69.137.91.40
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 10:45 pm: | |
gus, i just relized that you and i aren't far apart(our buses anyway)mine is pd4104-1214 |
john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member
Username: Chessie4905
Post Number: 738
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 71.58.117.21
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 5:16 pm: | |
You could have enough battery to engage the bendix, but not turn over the engine. Also it could be a bad solenoid; the contact disc in side may be burn't from use enough to not allow full current from battery cable to get into the starter.Your solenoid should have two large studs and one small wire connection. Battery cable connects to one large stud. The other large stud connects to the inside of the starter. When you energize the small wire, the solenoid plunger pulls a plate to connect the two large studs together. If the plate is bad or burnt bad, which it normally gets to be over time with that large amperage transfer, you could still have a solenoid problem. While you energize the small wire to make the solenoid click, at the same time, use an old screwdriver and touch across the two big bolts ( it can leave a spark burn, so use an old screwdriver) and see if it turns over or nothing. If it turns over, the solenoid is bad. If it doesn't turn or no spark, the problem, most likely is in the starter itself.After you check this,as the 04 starter is easy to remove, you could remove it and at least check it before you take it to be repaired. Does it smell burn't? Once it is off, you could remove the end cap and inspect the brush area if you have an idea what to look for. Otherwise having it checked wouldn't hurt, as you could check life left in brushes and condition of commutator.Don't forget to DISCONNECT THE BATTERIES if you take that big cable off. Of course, I'm assuming that you checked the battery connections and voltage. BTW, if someone in the driver's seat hits the starter button, can you hear it click while standing at rear of engine? |
niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member
Username: Niles500
Post Number: 785
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 72.91.168.92
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 12:28 am: | |
Christopher - I still cannot tell from your posts what is occuring - but PLEEEEEEEEEEEZE - If your ground is OK - first have your INDIVIDUAL batts "LOAD TESTED" - then if your starter spins/skips, check your bendix - If your starter doesn't spin, check your solenoid - then and only then R/R it - HTH |
Austin Scott Davis (Zimtok)
Registered Member
Username: Zimtok
Post Number: 176
Registered: 9-2006
Posted From: 216.37.73.226
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 8:55 am: | |
It sounds like the problem is a bad connection.
You need to remove EVERY cable connection and clean them. That includes every connection between batteries if you have multiple batteries, every ground, even the battery disconnect switch.
It could even be the brushes in the starter.
I've had several GM cars that a tap on the starter with a hammer seated the brushes and allowed the starter to turn over.
Good Luck |
Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member
Username: Gusc
Post Number: 501
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 63.97.117.41
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 8:06 pm: | |
At this point I agree with the other posts that it is a bad battery or bad ground.
I still don't know what a "ping" is. If it is the starter gear hitting the flywheel gear then it sounds as if the starter isn't turning (You say you can't hear the starter turning). If it is working the spinning will be easy to hear.
(Message edited by gusc on September 25, 2007) |
Austin Scott Davis (Zimtok)
Registered Member
Username: Zimtok
Post Number: 178
Registered: 9-2006
Posted From: 216.37.73.226
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 4:35 pm: | |
I suspect the "PING" is the selenoid pulling the starter gear into the flywheel. Without the starter spinning it just hits the flywheel. |
Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member
Username: Gusc
Post Number: 502
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 63.97.117.39
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 5:16 pm: | |
Austin,
I think you're right. If that is so the starter must be gone because it doesn't take a lot of power to activate the solenoid or turn the starter but it takes a lot to turn over the engine.
(Message edited by gusc on September 26, 2007) |
David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member
Username: Dmd
Post Number: 195
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 96.232.83.31
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 9:07 pm: | |
what has happened here? just wondering this stuff drives me crazy. |