| Author | Message | ||
| don goldsmith (Bottomacher)
Registered Member Username: Bottomacher Post Number: 221 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 72.15.86.59 Rating: N/A |
Well, here I go again. I plan to install a proheat unit in a loop to include the water heater, rear heater core in the bus, and the engine as a preheater. What throws me is- with the engine thermostats closed, how does the water flow through the engine to preheat it? | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 599 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.35.55 Rating: N/A |
Don on my 8V92 it is plumbed into the block below the heads on both sides good luck | ||
| don goldsmith (Bottomacher)
Registered Member Username: Bottomacher Post Number: 222 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 72.15.86.59 Rating: N/A |
Now it's getting funky. In the winter, I want the system loop to include the water heater, engine, the rear cabin heater (and front, if it's strong enough)and Proheat. The proheat will circulate the coolant when it's running, but I want the engine to circulate it when the engine is running. Further, In the summer, I want the coolant to circulate through the engine and water heater only. In my head, this thing is starting to look like six circuits and fifty valves. Is there a "normal" way to do this? | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 600 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.35.55 Rating: N/A |
Don, I do have have 2 pumps on mine no extra valves if I can find the drawing I will email it to you mine is plumbed the way you are thinking with the only difference I have bay heat .Have you checked the Aqua Hot,Hurricane Heating and the Suremarine site for instructions good luck (Message edited by luvrbus on December 08, 2008) (Message edited by luvrbus on December 08, 2008) | ||
| Mel La Plante (Mel_4104)
Registered Member Username: Mel_4104 Post Number: 98 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 154.5.119.1 Rating: N/A |
Don why do you not just sell it to me, cheap of coures,and that way you will let me figure it out????? all kidding aside they are a great unit and you will be happy with it when you get it installed proper.there are a lot of freight trucks out there with them in now and i wish i had one and am trying to get one from a freind that wrecks heavy equipment and he tells me i am at the top of his list. good luck and enjoy the heat. | ||
| William Garamella (Nh_wanderer)
Registered Member Username: Nh_wanderer Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 24.62.162.30  Rating: N/A |
Don, I recently installed a Webasto diesel heater into our 83 Wanderlodge. The Webasto is similar to the Pro Heat. The installation functions as you describe. Webasto circulates the heated coolant through the water heater exchanger then (if it is set to winter function) through three heat exchangers within the coach then to the engine block and back to the Webasto. If it is set to summer function it will go directly from the hot water tank exchanger to the engine block. Sporlan valves control the winter summer function. There is an auxiliary pump in addition to the boiler pump and this is set up to run when the Webasto power is on. The bus came plumbed with the "coach heat" and the dash had controls for aux pump, and Winter/Summer loop. Plumbing in the Webasto requires a simple series connection just before the aux pump. I installed diodes for the aux pump and two Sporlan valves so they can function either with the Webasto or engine generated heat. The coach exchangers each have blowers and run off a thermostat. I need to install a temperature sensing switch that will turn them off when the Webasto is off and the coolant temp falls below heating temp. So far so good. I love this little heater and its real efficient too. Yesterday morning it brought the whole coach up to room temp from the mid 20s F inside of an hour. Although this is a Blue Bird installation, it is pretty generic and I think it could be modified for a viriety of busses. I have the basic flow diagram of the heating loops showing the winter /summer function aux pump and Sporlan valves. I also have the electrical and parts drawings too. If you are interested, let me know. I can e mail them to you. NH Bill | ||
| don goldsmith (Bottomacher)
Registered Member Username: Bottomacher Post Number: 226 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 72.15.86.59 Rating: N/A |
LUV, I only checked the Proheat site (whatever it is called), but my unit is an older one and is not mentioned. I never thought to look for other sites like webasto. If you have a drawing, I'd love to see it. WILLIAM, I appreciate your offer, too. I'll take any information I can get. I'm gettin too old to do all this twice. I still get the willies when I think of using a bunch of electric valves and sensors and-yuk- diodes, but I might be able to install it with brainless little centrally located manual valves. | ||
| William Garamella (Nh_wanderer)
Registered Member Username: Nh_wanderer Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 24.62.162.30 Rating: N/A |
Don, I sent off the drawings of the heating loops and some photos of my installation. I hope they are useful. I think you are right about being able to install this with manual valves and switches. NH Bill | ||
| quantum merlin (Quantum500)
Registered Member Username: Quantum500 Post Number: 49 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 71.33.238.177 Rating: N/A |
I would also like to see some ideas on installations. I don't think I'm quite as perplexed but different ideas are always great to work with | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 395 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.210.66.68 Rating: N/A |
Contact Vehicle Systems...Colorado. They will send you a whole bunch of stuff on Webasto...at least they did when I installed mine. In Seattle a firm also; I believe the name is Sailor Sams. Both on the web. FWIW  RCB | ||
| John Riddle (Jriddle)
Registered Member Username: Jriddle Post Number: 16 Registered: 3-2008 Posted From: 216.163.110.230  Rating: N/A |
Bill I have Webasto also and e-mailed a request for you infomation on your install. I have alot of ideas but why re-invent the wheel if you know what I mean. Thanks John | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 601 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.33.35.55 Rating: N/A |
Don, all of the hydronic systems the basics are the same,Hurricane system use the Proheat unit and you can download the manual or Sure Marine has the Webasto units.I have the Primus system in my bus and trying to Email you the papers on it but I am having a problem scaning and emailing give me a little time and maybe I can figure it out.Using the design from the 3 different units you should be able to come up with a simple design. good luck | ||
| William Garamella (Nh_wanderer)
Registered Member Username: Nh_wanderer Post Number: 8 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 24.62.162.30 Rating: N/A |
John, you got it... just sent them off to you. Also, the following is a link to the Webasto technical information. http://www.techwebasto.com/ NH Bill (Message edited by Nh_wanderer on December 09, 2008) | ||
| don goldsmith (Bottomacher)
Registered Member Username: Bottomacher Post Number: 227 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 72.15.86.59 Rating: N/A |
Thanks to you all, this is getting much simpler. Has anyone out there cut into the 1" heater supply lines in the baggage bay tunnel? I had hoped to use them, since they are already in place and well insulated. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 396 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.212.201.73 Rating: N/A |
Might want to think about it A LOT before placing your unit. Strategic planning will solve potential problems down the line and will give many benefits "where they are needed". Dont't know about your coach, but you might just find no "need to cut" into a line....use existing connections possibly; food for much thought. Mine paid big dividends......after I moved it.............  FWIW RCB | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1423 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.68.134.176  Rating: N/A |
The previous owner plumbed my big Webasto inline to the copper heater pipes in the tunnel in the centre bay. MC8 8V71 and a DBW300 Webasto. It has pretty big inlet and outlet, compared to some smaller models. Into the forward flowing pipe, the pipe coming off the top of the motor, not the return with the handier valve inside the rear side engine access, and with the heat control valve in it. The coach was originally set-up for the stock HVAC and temperature control to be run via bypass switches and an external 24 volt source to power the big fans to keep the interior warm, with the Webasto substituting for the engine in supplying the heat. Webasto's internal controls took care of it, the coach HVAC took care of the interior. There are issues, if the driver's defroster valve is left closed on milder days, as there is a halt to water flow.... be sure your pipe spacers have ribs to keep hold of the rubber pipes under the clamps.... you'll have an excuse to put fresh coolant.... The engine water pump has no difficulty that I can tell pushing through the Webasto when regular running is resumed, and the regular Webasto pump has no trouble pushing the water front to back. Acts as a block heater too. Plumbed into the heater pipes, the thermostats do not come into play, there's flow in those pipes all the time. The upgrade I have to make is to be able to bypass the engine for more fuel efficient operation. No need to be casting all that heat into the block and away if you aren't planning to start it, and a loop to allow the water to flow if the various temperature control features continue to block flow as a control strategy. Don't forget that you need a method of dealing with expansion...In my present set-up, the radiator overflow tank takes care of that. And, as noted, think REALLY HARD about where it is going to live, the noise it will make, the exhaust and where that will end up, and that it needs to have a good fresh air source. Oh, and that you have to tear it apart for preventive maintenance periodically. Lots of folks have gone back and made "adjustments" as they become more familiar with the beast. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| don goldsmith (Bottomacher)
Registered Member Username: Bottomacher Post Number: 228 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 72.15.86.59 Rating: N/A |
My intention is to install the proheat and the water heater in the rear bay, along with the water and holding tanks. I will remove the coach a/c unit and use roof units and school bus heaters, one front and one rear. I want to use the existing 1" heater supply pipes to carry the coolant to the front heater and the driver's heat-a/c unit. That keeps the heat sources (engine, proheat, water heater) close together, and there is plenty of room in the rear bay. I should then have to run only light control wiring and branch heat supplies. It will also provide a bit of heat to the holding tanks. If anyone can find some flaw in the layout, I would be delighted to hear it. I'm getting too old to do all this stuff twice (or more). | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 397 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.212.201.73 Rating: N/A |
Don....there might never be a "flaw" for those of us watching and listening. The thing is, is it right for you? BW gave you lots of good information. Now it is pretty much up to you. What may be for us is not necessarily good for someone else. Depends on individual circumstances; to name a few... access, convenience, practicality, interference with other systems, complications, etc etc. In my case, I have an 80 foot run of pipe...front to back and some in between. As of this moment, it also goes thru the block 100% of the time. Also, even though the Webasto may not be running (summer)the coolant still goes the full length....and yes, thru the Webasto. Not necessary; and adds heat in coach when not needed (or wanted). But, until I have the time to "plumb in"all the valves, bells and whistles ( switches) to change it; so it is. As I stated previously, the Webasto (diesel fired heater of any type, I suppose) is a wonderful appliance.....what one does with it is, perhaps, its biggest limitation or possibility. BTW.....I have always "lived with" a system for a while before I "nail "it.....just my way. As Fast Fred says....do it your way. And best wishes RCB (Message edited by chuckllb on December 10, 2008) | ||
| John Riddle (Jriddle)
Registered Member Username: Jriddle Post Number: 17 Registered: 3-2008 Posted From: 216.163.110.230 Rating: N/A |
I was thinking of keeping Webasto system seperate from the engine and using a heat exchanger and pump to heat engine. I plan to get a used radiator from a junk yard to use as an expansion chamber and installing in water bay to help keep water from freezing. Just throwing this out there to find out if this is a bad idea. John | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 657 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.75.253 Rating: N/A |
John' The expansion tanks all have a diaphragm in them, and an air precharge. Using one as an expansion tank in an antifreeze system, I would put about 10 psi of air pressure in the tank, BEFORE connecting it to water. The whole purpose of these tanks is to keep the air and the water/antifreeze seperate, and keep an air volume for the water to expand into when it is heated, and expands. The radiator would be a good idea to keep the bay warm, but it won't do anything to help with expansion. HTH, George | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 589 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.82.162.19 Rating: N/A |
Back in the "old days" when I had a yacht outfitting co we did have problems with Espar and Webasto heaters. The units were created for Operating trucks and busses , which means 14.2 to 14.4 V to use. When used on a vessel dockside the voltage , even with the charger on , would drop to 12.2-.4 and many were not happy starting, again & again on a thermostat. Hopefully this has been cured in 30 years but.... Were I installing a real oil heat system I would still chose a Hurricane or similar marine unit that can operate on real 12V (not 14,4) with no hassles. Liveaboard VS Touring , could b effect decision. Caviat Emptor. FF | ||
| John Riddle (Jriddle)
Registered Member Username: Jriddle Post Number: 18 Registered: 3-2008 Posted From: 216.163.110.230 Rating: N/A |
George Thanks for input. I have looked it these tanks. I have to say I'm not too smart on hydronic systems. When these things are installed as a engine heater for example our DM-45 drill at work I don't see one of these tanks in that instulation? Are they necessary? John | ||
| Paso One (Paso_1)
Registered Member Username: Paso_1 Post Number: 121 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 142.165.246.239  Rating: N/A |
"The engine water pump has no difficulty that I can tell pushing through the Webasto when regular running is resumed, and the regular Webasto pump has no trouble pushing the water front to back." When I was rigging my system I called Webasto and they told me the unit was design to free flow, I added a extra circulator in the loop ( old transit circulator ) Works good having the second circulator in case the Webasto little circulator quits. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 658 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.75.253 Rating: N/A |
John, What you probably do see, is a plastic coolant recovery tank by the radiator, and a sealed radiator cap? This does the same thing, by allowing the expansion out into the plastic tank, and when the engine is shut off and cools, it sucks the coolant back into the radiator, to be pushed out again tomorrow. Some kind of expansion device is always necessary, old cars and buses did it by keeping the radiator level a couple of inches below the cap when cold. When we got into saving antifreeze, the overflow tank, sealed radiator cap, and a hose inbetween came to be. A Proheat/Webasto etc. will run in the engine+heater loop just fine, as the engine and radiator have an ex tank for themselves. You must put a bladder type expansion tank on your domestic hot water system, because it is impossible to compress a liquid! See Fred's comment on "a place for the water to go when making hot water out of cold." GOSPEL! By acccident, it also gets rid of pulsing and short cycles, and your pump and pressure switch will last much longer. HTH, George | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1424 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.68.134.176 Rating: |
Hello Don. Figuring out how to take advantage of the waste heat being given off the machinery of the Webasto to keep the bay warm is a great idea. As long as you can figure out how to do it while still feeding it fresh air and carrying away the exhaust, and being suspicious that it will leak a certain amount of exhaust past the connecting points, both pipes and around the burner housing. I would be afraid of CO finding its way up through the floor of the coach somehow, either through the cracks or via the plumbing runs... So, if you boxed it all, inside the bay, and what was left of the bay had some ventilation....might do the trick? Sorry, I've seen the effects of CO poisoning on the ones who lived, and I'm a little more paranoid about getting gassed than I used to be. It might be best to just write off the loss of that potential heat, and call it safety? happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| don goldsmith (Bottomacher)
Registered Member Username: Bottomacher Post Number: 230 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 72.15.86.59 Rating: N/A |
Thanks, BW. So far I know the front of the proheat and the back, and not much else. I was unaware that CO leaks are a concern. I can still put heat exchange pipes through my tanks for freeze protection and ventilate the bay. |
