| Author | Message | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 113 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 70.52.102.42  Rating: N/A |
I know, I know... the subjects don't correlate, but I'm sort of updating previous posts ('Winter Woes' & 'Hanging Low'). But first, thanks to Luke and Ralph Peters for my plates and hardware. And thanks to EVERYONE for the advice on those earlier posts. Well, happy as I was to get the new parts, my bus didn't care - she still wouldn't start. So instead of getting down the road and onto the lift, I spent the day (another one) starting the bus. Lesson learned: Warm coolant doesn't equal thin oil, at least not at these temps. Even after being plugged in all night, that 40 wt. was thick as molasses. NO WAY she was going to start. But maybe that's a good thing? Imagine that syrup pushing through the poor old oil pump! After the loan of a 'Reddy Heater' from my mechanic friend (Robert), I covered the engine and started blasting. Within a couple hours the gunk on the dipstick started resembling oil again. And with about half a crank, my pretty fired right up. Lesson learned: Whenever I think something's wrong with my bus, it's usually the weather. So far, so good. She's running, but will she build enough pressure to release the brakes? And how will I know? I'm sitting in 2 feet of frozen snow, so she's going to feel stuck, brakes or no brakes. Plus my safety chocks are frozen into the ground. But even with the air leak, she zoomed right up to 120 psi, the brakes released and everything seemed okay. Now I just had to finish digging her out. Enter the guy with the dump truck. A dump truck and a chain... what more could a girl ask? And - except for a slightly sprung rear bumper - everything worked out. I took your collective advice and nursed her to the garage... 2nd gear all the way. She lists badly to port, but (I think) nothing else was damaged. I'll know in a couple hours... when we finally get her on the lift. Ultimate lesson learned: Get the hell outta Dodge. Happy New Year! Nellie Wilson | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1454 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.68.121.244  Rating: N/A |
ACKKK!!!! What do you mean "get the hell outta Dodge"????? You already know preparation is the key to all good things in winter conditions. Chains break things, and you are completely at the mercy of the DOLT driving the pull vehicle to rip parts off your coach. You need to get a recovery strap of sufficient rating for pulling a coach. 18 000 lbs seems to work well for the tractor trailer and the coach. It does some stretch, so you don't jerk whatever the chain is attached to clean off the bus. Bumpers are pretty decorations on both ends of the coach, not any good for pulling on, as you have discovered. You have to attach underneath to structure, and at the back, you have to be very careful to not disrupt the engine mounts. Moving forward, a block heater is all that should be needed. Battery, cable and starter condition is key: If you can't spin the engine fast enough. it won't start. And from September onward, when parking the coach, you have to be thinking about the frozen escape, or forget about it until the thaw: solid ground under the tires, absolutely no sink-in at all, or the tires will be ice bound in the little hollow. And parking wherever melt water collects will do the same. High and dry is your parking goal. All a matter of course, in the frozen north. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1284 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9 Rating: N/A |
Somethings the matter if it was plugged in all night ant it wouldn't start. You sure the heater was working? If it is, like 20 below zero, leave it set till it is warmer outside. Find something else to do. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 631 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 66.82.9.100 Rating: N/A |
Thick oil is hardly the reason a diesel wont start in cold weather. The inability of the diesel to compression ignite , from the cold cylinder temps , and the poorer compression from batteries that loose big in the cold, so slow turning. First cure is a block heater , with "space Blanket" over engine if below zero , and 12 hours of heat. For folks with no 120V there are propane block heaters that do fine. Simplest for most folks is an alternate fuel, for start ETHER. Yes a warm engine can be ruined by attempting to bleed the fuel system with ether. BUT, at below freezing , a 3 second squirt into a 0-F engine is simply an alternate fuel, and does no harm. The usual technique is a 15 second crank , 45 seconds of wait , a second 15 second & 45 second wait THEN a squirt , and usually a huge cloud of smoke as she starts. After it airs up , the best warmup is a moderate driving speed NOT IDELING . FF | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 114 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 76.64.240.170 Rating: N/A |
All good points. But to clarify (John) it was indeed - 22 C. Problem: Can't find anything else to do, at least nothing that will help to get my bus on the road. On the road to where? Well, I don't exactly know, BusWarrior. But wherever that turns out to be, it starts with gettin' the hell outta Dodge. I mean, what's the "ACKKK!!!!" all about? I didn't buy the thing to toodle around Canada during our month of the summer, dontcha know.  Some further clarification: The batteries are new, as is the block heater. But the engine still wouldn't crank (fast enough) until I put heat directly onto the crankcase and warmed up the oil. Or perhaps (a bow to FF) maybe that also warmed the cylinder heads enough to fire? All l know is it worked, and it worked great. And I just thought to share that bit of information. By the way, the plates are in, the airlines are re-plumbed and she's standing on all fours again, fat and sassy. Nellie Wilson | ||
| Ralph Peters (Ralph_peters)
Registered Member Username: Ralph_peters Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2008 Posted From: 206.251.8.2 Rating: N/A |
Nellie right on, when I worked for the county in northern Wi. we heated both coolant and a torch on the oil pan, than sometimes one of the batteries would loose a post, but we made new ones. Also watch how much fuel you have and see if you need winter fuel up there. If your coach was fueled in the summer and none added. BW and big trucks konw (frozen) fuel! | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 117 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 76.64.243.35 Rating: N/A |
Hey Ralph! Good to hear your 'voice'... not to mention your support on this 'thick oil' thing. When Uncle Fred said "Thick oil is hardly the reason a diesel won't start in cold weather," I ALMOST said, "Yeah, that's why nobody invented multi-grade oil." But I resisted in the spirit of 'men know best'.. even when totally illogical. And when DD advises to '...change back from multi-grade to straight 40 wt as soon weather permits,' they're just out to sell more oil, right? Has nothing to do with the temperature. Sheesh! Oh well, I'll keep my observations to myself and just ask questions. Maybe if my names were reversed...? BTW, the plates work superb ... only wish I'd had the foresight (and cash) to replace the bags at the same time. I trust you received your envelope from the postal people? Yak soon, Nellie | ||
| Ralph Peters (Ralph_peters)
Registered Member Username: Ralph_peters Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2008 Posted From: 206.251.8.2 Rating: N/A |
Nellie, Yes I got it,thanks. Glad to hear your air bags are ok, cause I saved the three that were still good,when I did my MCI-7. I learned replace the bad one on my MC-8, not all 4. | ||
| Bill Gerrie (Bill_gerrie)
Registered Member Username: Bill_gerrie Post Number: 218 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 216.198.139.38 Rating: N/A |
Nellie Don't put in multi grade oil if you want your engine to last. Do a search on here and you will find all kinds of info on why not. Nothing will ruin a 2 stroke faster. Bill | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 118 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 70.49.114.241 Rating: N/A |
Gosh, this is getting more like a chat room than a forum (mostly my fault, I guess). But, Bill, c'mon! What didn't you get? I don't use multi-grade (though several 'experts' have tried to convince me otherwise). That's the whole point of my post. I mentioned multi-grade only to make a point. I quoted DD's advisory only to reinforce that point. It was like, a joke? Just a belated rejoinder to Fast Fred's comment. Sheesh (again). To Ralph: Are you saving those air bags for later use or have you replaced them with the 'rolling lobe' type? I'm sure you can guess why I'm asking (hey, used air bags or used tires, same diff to me). Nellie Wilson | ||
| Grant Thiessen (Busshawg)
Registered Member Username: Busshawg Post Number: 80 Registered: 10-2007 Posted From: 206.45.93.160  Rating: N/A |
Can't help myself , I have comment or agree with you on the getting the hell out of dodge. -34 here this morning, -38 with the wind and tomorrow it's supposed to be colder. Like you said about buying your coach for the month of summer?? I'll be happy to get a month here. BW has a point about being prepared for the winter but I really don't want to be here. Hope to be full timing in another year or 2. I manage a trucking terminal and getting those diesels started every morning has been quite a challenge. Which brings me to my next point, heating the oil. The trucks usually start with the block heater but when they don't a torch and some stove pipie go a long way. Usually about 20 minites of this and away they go. They start smoother than the ones that are plugged in. Have fun | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 119 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 70.52.106.191 Rating: N/A |
Hi Grant- I thought I had it rough but you guys (I checked out your profile) really get it BAD don't you like yourself, I hope to be full-timing soon. A sort of shakedown, get-to-know-the-ropes cruise this winter, some more re-fit this summer and, then, Adios Amigos. No more block heaters, winter wiper blades or dump trucks with chains. Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it. But, hey, how does that torch and stove pipe technique work? You know, just for future reference... I'm still stuck awhile before leaving. Hope you're able to hit the road soon... I'm so anxious I can barely think of anything else. Nellie Wilson | ||
| Grant Thiessen (Busshawg)
Registered Member Username: Busshawg Post Number: 81 Registered: 10-2007 Posted From: 206.45.93.160 Rating: |
Hey Nellie Think it's been a while since anyone has checked me out , haha Anyway regarding the torch and stove pipe thing. We use a tiger (not sure if that's how to spell it) torch. They give of a tremendous amount of heat. Therefore we can't get it too close to the motor in case of a fire. Especially with some of the trucks which have the odd oil leak. So we get a couple of lengths of stove pipe with an elbow on the end. We place the elbow pointing upward under the oil pan and put the torch in the end which sticks out from under the unit. We have never had a fire and this seems to heat the engine up quite nicely. Even if the unit hasn't been plugged in we can always get it going with this technique. These torches are propane operated and work off of a regular BBQ tank. As the bus motors are lower to the ground than a big truck it might be recommeded to be be sure the flame isn't going all the way throught the pipe. You can check this on the ground beside the bus. If the flame is going all the way through simply add a piece of pipe to put more distance between the flame and the oil pan. It's a good idea to keep an eye on things when using anm open flame but we usually walk away a come back in 20 or 25 minutes and away it goes. I should mention the pipe will melt through the snow so if you have grass under the bus and little snow , well you may have a fire hazard too. ha ha it's starting to sound risky but I do want to make you aware of the hazards, however we do it whenever we have one that just won't go. We usually find ourselves doing this when it's -30 or colder. Have fun!! Maybe we'll see you south of the border someday. Have fun. | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1457 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.68.122.210 Rating: N/A |
Just a little repartee, one Canadian nudging another for wanting to escape...! Indeed, warming the oil is a noble endeavor. The Cummins ISM in my Freightliner has a factory heater built into the oil pan, as well as the traditional block heater. One covered plug on the side of the truck splits to power both with one extension cord, so combined, they'll be under one 15 amp circuit. Care must be taken that whatever methods are employed, that one does not accidentally cook the oil. Surface temp of the oil pan has to stay well below 300 degrees, or it'll look like the bottom of your frying pan on the inside. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Glenn Williams (Glenn)
Registered Member Username: Glenn Post Number: 179 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 216.163.56.194 Rating: N/A |
Would one of those dip stick electric heaters be a good idea? Think "cattle prod" to encourage bus movement? ;) It would heat the oil directly and not require any pan modifications and would not eventually fall of like a magnetic oil pan heater. FWIW. I'm from balmy Michigan, so I think I've got it easy for cold weather. Glenn | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1458 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.68.122.210 Rating: N/A |
If the dipstick heater is able to warm things up, then it's as good as anything else. I think the trouble with them is a relatively small contact area, so unable to transmit enough heat to be effective. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Glenn Williams (Glenn)
Registered Member Username: Glenn Post Number: 180 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 216.163.56.194 Rating: N/A |
Sorry BW, I should have said to use one for additional help for a standard block heater to make sure both fluids have some warmth. You are right, they have little surface area. Glenn | ||
| Nellie Wilson (Vivianellie)
Registered Member Username: Vivianellie Post Number: 123 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 70.49.113.122 Rating: N/A |
Well, I'll be golly-gee go to heck.Thankee, thankee, Monsieur Peters and Monsieur BussHawg, you saved my Canadian Bacon. The focus of the conversation (thanks to you guys) has switched from 'my idiocy' to 'how is her idiocy best employed?' Anyway, Grant, I reckon plenty of gals are checkin' you out... you being so stove pipey and all (that 'pointing upward' part sorta grabs a girl's attention). And, BW, shame on you. That last post is a far cry from your "Ackkk!! ... A block heater is all that should be needed" opening blast. That ain't fair, pard... but I love ya' anyhoo! Hey, where's our usually irrepressible Uncle Fred? | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 347 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 69.250.38.183  Rating: N/A |
Nellie wrote: "That last post is a far cry from your "Ackkk!! ... A block heater is all that should be needed" opening blast." But that brings a thought to my mind. And maybe I'm not the one who should be making the calculations (I rarely see much colder than single-digits below freezing Farenheit), but doesn't that bring up the point of calculating the effect of a block heater? I'm noticed that a lot of the heavy-duty block heaters put out 1K watts (there seem to be some 1500 watt units out there but that sure sounds to me like it would crowd a 15amp supply). 1000 watts is a *lot* of heat. But lets take a "standard" case of 0 degrees F (about -18,19 C). Now that's not really cold by Montreal/ Kapuscasing/ Winnipeg/ Regina/ Whitehorse standards, but if we're getting a good result at that temp, it stands to reason that we can call that block heater doing its job. So, we have a lump at 0 F, and we have a device that puts 1000W into the coolant (or, in this case, the warmant ... sorry, some are just too hard to resist), there's reasonable protection from wind or other factors drawing heat out. Is there any way that you're not going to have a Del/T of less than 50-60 degrees -- i.e. the engine temp at starting on a typical Florida morning in October? And shouldn't that engine start just fine? So -- not to be criticising anybody for not having the right heater or using it right -- if you've had 1000W plugged in for 2-3 hours, and it's not doing its job, should you be looking at whether the heater is working properly, is placed so that thermosyphon flow is moving the heat, and you're correctly wind-shielded/ insulated? Of course, there are issues of cold-battery and dragging starter (although I'd think that there would be a little heat that's radiating to the starter) and thick fuel (ditto on heat into injectors and lines close to the engine), but for most reasonable temps, wouldn't a block heater be about all you'd really need? (I'd like to see the data from a thermocoupled engine with a good block heater over a few hours at 0 F. I'm guessing that you'd reach a "soaked" steady state in about 2-3 hours -- does anybody's experience show that you gain anything by plugging in for more than 2-3 hours?) | ||
| Grant Thiessen (Busshawg)
Registered Member Username: Busshawg Post Number: 82 Registered: 10-2007 Posted From: 206.45.93.160 Rating: N/A |
My rule is 4 hours of being plugged in. Seems to me that in the past the fourth hour seems to make a difference. No data to prove it just seems to make the difference. Buswarrior, Maybe it's not that it's getting colder or that I want to get out of Canada. Think it's more that age is setting in and I can't take the extreme cold anymore. Actually I've been looking at coming back out your way. I did spent 14 years in London and still haven't quite figured out why I left. Anyway if you have a oil pan heater built in I don't believe you can get it any better. I would think you are adding miles to your engine evertime you start it. However I am amazed of how much abuse these motors take. Ever winter we start our city trucks every morning and they seem to hang in there year after year. Nellie, I don't even know what to say! Have Fun! | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 349 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 69.250.38.183 Rating: N/A |
Grant wrote: "Anyway if you have a oil pan heater built in I don't believe you can get it any better. I would think you are adding miles to your engine evertime you start it." Yes, warm oil is important but a thoroughly warmed cylinder block is important too. I've seen some SAE papers on diesel camshaft and valve/rocker lubrication and they show the time it takes to get effective oil pressure in the top of the engine; the papers compare multigrade oils and a 15W-40 oil can take over a minute for oil pressure to register at the head. During that time, you're running with *no* effective pressure lubrication in the top part of the engine. I used to work on light duty engines and the standard at that time was, if you have to have only one, have the block heater. It will warm the block, head, engine internals, and (to some extent) the oil. But the BEST is a block heater combined with a sump/oil heater. That way, you have the benefits of a warm engine and oil that's thoroughly warmed. I don't have data, but I'd imagine that all this would be *much* more imporant to an engine that's running on a straight-weight oil. | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 324 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
Bruce There is no question that warm(ed) oil is the most desireable. When it gets to 20 or 30 below (F) the autowreckers are allways licking their chops doing a brisk business selling used engines to replace those that failed because of lack of lubrication. I tried a rather unscientific experiment once using straight 30 and a 5/30 multigrade having sat outside in -30 overnite and then check the pourability in the morning. the single weight was definitely like molasses. Nellie, find yourselve some 6 inch diameter residential furnace duct pipe and an elbow to match, along with a tiger torch as Grant suggested. It works well, but becarefull with the open flame, because Detroits usually have oily pans, and it is easy for flames to start licking. Dont ask how I know that!!!! Joe. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 684 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.75.253 Rating: N/A |
A little thought here. Electric resistance heat always produces 3.41 BTUs per Watt, which really isn't much. A 1500 Watt heater, getting exactly 120 Volts out the end of an extension cord, will produce 5118 BTU, while drawing 13 Amps. That isn't much heat considering the exposed area of a Diesel block. Now, a Webasto, Proheat, etc, putting out 30,000 or more BTU? The math comes out to 1/6th the heating time of a 1500 Watt electric, or 1/10th the time of a 1000. Not to mention the ability to perform when its REALLY cold. The engine has an oil cooler in it, which as Bruce says becomes an oil WARMER when you circulate warment (warmant?)... I like his comment on Delta/t also! Happy shivering from sunny California! G | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 350 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 69.250.38.183 Rating: N/A |
Thanks George. I'd been thinking of the balance between 1000K and 1500K and current draw. The 1000K is fairly comfortably below 10 Amps but the 1500 does give significantly more heat. Would you be comfortable putting 13 Amps through a 100 foot, 14 g. cord? In the spirit of 'anything worth doing is worth overdoing', I'll have a ProHeat (bought from Nick) and a plug-in heater on my bus. | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces)
Registered Member Username: Pvcces Post Number: 1251 Registered: 5-2001 Posted From: 65.74.69.188 Rating: N/A |
Bruce, use a 12 gauge, if anything. That will have a 15 amp rating. For what it's worth. Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher Ketchikan, Alaska | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 686 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 207.231.75.253 Rating: N/A |
Bruce, You got my inference right now! Number 14 AWG is rated 15 amps, insulated-not more than three conductors in a covering. But, will you get 120 Volts out of the end of a 100 foot #14 extension cord while trying to draw 13+ Amps? I don't even need to answer... (Those lazy electricons!) Obviously the heater output will be well under 5 grand in that case, and when the loss out of the block nearly matches the heater input, plus the adverse effect of cold on the batteries, the darn thing just won't start! A #12 cord would work better, as it has less impedance. G | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 351 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 69.250.38.183 Rating: N/A |
Since the length of the cord makes a difference, will it be signifcantly better to park closer to the socket and use, say, a 25-foot cord (12 AWG, of course)? And, do generators need to be warmed for starting in cold weather? | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 252 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.165.176.62  Rating: N/A |
I suppose gen sets depend on how cold it gets. My gen has glow plugs which will help the fuel light but thick oil would still be an issue in real cold temps | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 352 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 69.250.38.183 Rating: N/A |
Thanks, Tim. Would the small size of a generator engine allow you to get away with a hair dryer (1000W) for 10-15 minutes to warm the oil? But I guess a water-cooled gen would get heat from the engine warmant if you were using a ProHeat, wouldn't it? | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 325 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
Bruce There is another thing you might consider for the generator and that is to use synthetic if the manufacturer allows or recommends it. Example the VW's that you have. Joe. | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 353 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 69.250.38.183 Rating: N/A |
Yes, thanks, Joe. The 5W-40 in my VW comes out as only 50-60% used up after 10K miles on Oil Analysis and "metal" rates (i.e. wear indicators) are very low. Plus the 5W makes it easy to start at low temps (many in the far north report fairly easy starting at 28-30-32 degrees below -- although I'd never start one that I owned at those temps without warming it up; see your post above re: 'engine damage'). | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1288 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9 Rating: N/A |
One thing that can cause a failure in starting with stiff oil is for the camshaft lifter roller to not immediately rotate, but to drag on the camshaft, causing a flat spot on the valve lifter roller, making it drag on the camshaft and causing early accelerated failure. The bottom line to all this discussion is not to try to start and run your coach at these temps unless you are experienced in operating these engines in these conditions. Wait till it warms up or tow it to a warmer area first. Using a synthetic lighter oil for the winter would be nice, but 40 or more quarts? Let it set and find something else to do. BTW, we haven't even talked about fuel gelling. | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 387 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.230.210  Rating: N/A |
Chessie Don't go there on fuel gelling. It is bad enough to drive and the air lines going to the air bags freeze up and you are on a concrete road and you go bumping along LOL Fuel will gel at the temp that the water freezes too and that makes for a bad hair day LOLLL | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 38 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190 Rating: N/A |
put the portable propane barbeque under the jimmy's oil pan and let it heat for a hour. safe, portable and multi functional... | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1495 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.68.135.30 Rating: N/A |
Let's think about what happens to the cold oil as it is pumped into a warm block.... Take it easy, it'll flow. happy coaching! buswarrior |
