| Author | Message | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 760 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 72.171.0.143 Rating: N/A |
Folks, I am on the horns of a dilemma. My lovely Bridgestone M711 M&S drivers, in 12R22.5, have come to the end of their life. Actually, one might argue they are past end-of-life. I need new shoes, right now. As I've said here many times before, we run block-tread "drive" tires on our drive axle for good reasons, and I don't really want to get into that debate here -- we're going to stick with them. But I'm having trouble finding them in our preferred size, which is 315/80R22.5. The last time we changed drive tires, we gave up trying to find 315's, and settled for the 12R22.5 size. But with 24,000 lbs on the drive axle, I have to run those tires at very close to their maximum pressure of 120 psi. It's hard to find truck stop air hoses that run enough pressure to keep them properly inflated, and, on top of that, I really feel that 95-100 psi would give us better performance in sand, mud, and snow. (The load tables for the 315's say I can run as low as 90 psi for my load). There are only three (AFAIK) drive-pattern tires in this size that are not speed-limited to 55mph. Those are the Goodyear Regional RHD, the Continental HDR, and the Michelin XDN2-Grip (although if anyone is aware of any others, I am all ears). Before anyone asks, yes, I have already checked Bridgestone/Firestone, Kumho, Yokohama, Toyo, and Goodrich. Of these, I have already pretty much ruled out the Michelins, although they are an excellent tire, for two reasons. First is that this is a directional tire, so I could never rotate them, unless I wanted to dismount/remount them to do so. Secondly, they are $620 apiece (not including taxes, mounting, or balancing), and with my coach going through drivers in less than 100,000 miles, I can't see spending three grand on a set of them. Calling around to Goodyear dealers suggests that the RHD exists only in the catalog and maybe some fantasy world someplace -- no one has them in that size, and can't seem to get them (for that matter, even the Michelins are hard to find in that size -- nearest is in South Carolina, and I'm in Whittier, California at the moment). I will be calling around to Continental dealers tomorrow. All this leads up to the $64,000 question. I can get Bandag retreads made on a nice set of Michelin 315/80R22.5 casings (from a coach) in any tread pattern I'd like -- they have at least three M&S patterns that would work. They'd cost me about $265 per tire before taxes and mounting. So given the weight on our axle (24,000 lbs) and the way we use our bus (mostly keeping to 60mph or below, except when on Red Cross assignment, where we "wick it up" to 65-68 for maybe eight hours a day, five to ten days per year), what says the group here about running Bandags on the drive axle? And yes, I know I am opening a can of worms, and that we've had similar discussions here in the past. More importantly, is (or has) anyone here run retreads on their bus, and, if so, what was/is your experience with them? Any and all opinions considered, but we need to make our decision in the next few days. We're pretty much stuck here until we put six new tires on the coach (the steers, however, do not present the same problem). Thanks. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Roger Baughman (Roger)
Registered Member Username: Roger Post Number: 72 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 71.138.248.217  Rating: N/A |
Sean, did you go to L.A. to get the rear axle alligned? Roger | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 762 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 72.171.0.143 Rating: N/A |
Yes, we're at LA Freightliner now. Turns out we need a new tie rod end before we can get the alignment done. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 833 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.92.203  Rating: N/A |
Won't a call to a local MCI or ABC bus shop tell you where they get their 315s? | ||
| David Dulmage (Daved)
Registered Member Username: Daved Post Number: 234 Registered: 12-2003 Posted From: 142.46.199.30  Rating: N/A |
I run retreads on the drive and tag axles. I have no issue with regards to reliability. I have had one tire failure on a fairly old tire that was on the coach when I bought it. It was essentially a non-event. In fact it occured about 1/2 mile from the exit to a truck tire centre and I was back on the road with a new pair of retreads in no time. I run new Hankook tires on the steering axle. I think careful attention to proper inflation is a more important issue than new vs. retread. FWIW DaveD | ||
| John and Barb Tesser (Bigrigger)
Registered Member Username: Bigrigger Post Number: 135 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 24.179.147.233  Rating: N/A |
Sean, I cant speak to Bandag retreads on a bus, but I tried them several times on drive tires on my trucks and never found the trade off to be worth the savings. Hot weather seemed to be the killer for me. I would run hard across the high desert (70+ mph) stop for an hour and when I took off again that is when one of the caps would let go. I know people that run them all the time with no trouble, but thats been my experience and owning several trucks, I finally made my mind up to quit trying and just pay the $$$ up front. fwiw | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 764 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.27 Rating: N/A |
I'm sure it would, but those guys don't run drive tires -- they use an all-position "rib" pattern all the way around. Besides, most bus companies lease their tires. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1508 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.66.18.184  Rating: N/A |
my response at the other bbs: If re-manufactured tires create trouble, you can be sure that the big fleets, both truck and bus, would not be using them. Just in time freight delivery and passenger travel are two places that a fleet simply cannot afford downtime in any way, shape or form. There is simply no verifiable measurements against re-manufactured tires. period. At best, this is a superstitious or spiritual based decision for those with anti-re-man beliefs. The gators at roadside are no more representative of re-mans than of virgin casings. And they're all overwhelmingly caused by low tire pressure, or by being run with obvious and existing tire damage. The government funded the research back some years ago, sent the university kids out to collect gators in an appropriate fashion, and studied the debris. They had an eye on whether some regulation might be required to rein in these supposed troublesome tires. The way a tire died is as plain to these folks as what a dead body is to the coroner. Wish I knew where that body of work is...that set of links died two computers ago.... Bandag is a worthy name in re-man circles. Goodyear and Michelin have their house brand re-mans too. The good ones have extensive quality control, and warranty the re-mans generously. My Freightshaker runs on re-mans, and depending on my tire trade cycle amongst the heavy vehicles within my sphere of influence, the coach will too, without a second thought. Make them balance the tires, to alleviate any suspicions. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1509 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.66.18.184 Rating: N/A |
I found it! Isn't the internet and search engines terrific? http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/DOT/NHTSA/NRD/Multimedia/PDFs/Crash%20Avoidance/2008/ 811060.pdf this is the study, warning to the slower connected, it's a 236 page research paper. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| John and Barb Tesser (Bigrigger)
Registered Member Username: Bigrigger Post Number: 136 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 24.179.147.233 Rating: N/A |
I'm glad they worked out for you BW, I just stated the facts in my own experience. It would seem to me if they were all that good the DOT would let you run them on any axle and not just the drives? | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1510 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.66.18.184 Rating: N/A |
re-caps of the past were the reason for those restrictive government regs. Today's retread tires are re-manufactured, not re-capped. You'll NEVER get the government to repeal a reg like that, no matter what improvements have been made, as the government simply does not work like that. No bureaucrat is going to go near repealing some old "safety reg" where is the gain for the risk? It'll stay on the books until we don't even have tires anymore. For no other good reason than it exists. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Mark Renner (Boomer)
Registered Member Username: Boomer Post Number: 144 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 206.58.200.38  Rating: N/A |
Sean, my humble opinion is that they will work for you and you will be happy with them. I base that on over 30 years experience owning truck and bus fleets. Today's retread technology is far from what it was in the old days. When a casing is electronically scanned, any imperfection shows up resulting in a rejection. If you have, or obtain, a matched set of casings (manufacturer, size, date) there is no reason that the Bandag (or Michelin) retread won't work, as you drive slowly, keep them inflated, and don't curb them, unlike a lot of drivers. The above post about driving 70 mph in the hot desert, perhaps with underinflated and curbed tires, at gross weights illustrates why there are "gators" on the highway. Have you noticed how few there are now compared to 20 years ago? I bought a set of Bandags with a special rock tread for my off highway water truck last season at GCR Tire (west coast Bridgestone/Firestone/Bandag dealer) and studied up on the Michelin and Bandag new process retreads. Never ran retreads on our coaches, but did on the truck fleet, with no ill effects and a lot lower tire cpm. I say do it. By the way, if you could make it to Kaiser in Eugene for the alignment, GCR is right there in Coburg for the tires-no sales tax. | ||
| Larry & Lynne Dixon (Larry_d)
Registered Member Username: Larry_d Post Number: 192 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 71.111.188.44  Rating: N/A |
Heat and I mean extreme desert heat and low prssure is the problem. Our logging trucks years ago even ran recaps on steering until the trips got longer and more pavement. More pavement heavier loads, faster trucks and heat slowed the use of recaps. Bandage is more than likely the best and lasted the best. But traction tired recaps run a bit hotter and need more care. My two cents Larry. | ||
| John and Barb Tesser (Bigrigger)
Registered Member Username: Bigrigger Post Number: 137 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 24.179.147.233 Rating: N/A |
I do have to say that my bad experiences with Bandag caps was in the early '70s so I am sure they have made advances since then, I just think when I have my family in the coach and want to eliminate any potential source of troubles, I will still run new virgin rubber as a matter of coarse. "To each his own" | ||
| Wayne McLeod (Milo)
Registered Member Username: Milo Post Number: 9 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 208.81.44.17 Rating: N/A |
I have owned and operated trucks since 1972 and have used recaps all along. The only tire I ever peeled was a new trailer tire back in the 70's. We haul big weight (62500 Kgs.), but at lower speed. (60-62 mph) and no desert. In your application, I say go for the Bandags! | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 772 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.11 Rating: N/A |
Thought I would post an update here with the final outcome of all the tire ruminations. We came very close to buying the Bandags. What ultimately nixed that idea was the Bandag guy himself, who basically told us that he would not stand behind the tire if we were going to run it at 90-95 PSI -- he wanted to see at least 110 PSI in the tire. Well, that defeated the whole purpose of switching to the 315/80R22.5 size. At 110 PSI, the 12R22.5 tires we've been running are more than adequate to support our load. The idea, for us, behind switching to the larger size was to run a lower pressure to help with loose surfaces such as sand and mud. (And, yes, we do park on the beach, and we have been through plenty of mud, getting stuck once.) Furthermore, one of the tools in our chest for dealing with soft surfaces, which we have thankfully never had to use, is to lower the pressure in the drive tires if needed, as any off-road enthusiast will tell you. Manufacturer load and inflation tables allow a substantial drop in pressure (or increase in load) at extremely low speeds, and we could conceivably drop our tire pressures to 70 PSI or even lower to get out of soft stuff, then use our on-board 150 PSI compressor to re-inflate to normal pressure before resuming driving speeds. With the advice against running the tire below 110 PSI, we felt that we'd be more nervous doing this with a re-treaded 315 than with a virgin tire, even the 12R. After we ruled out re-treaded 315's, I went back to the phones to try to find open-shoulder drive tires in either size. 315's were extremely difficult to locate, and I was not happy with the couple of patterns we could come up with. The tires I really wanted in that size, Goodyear Regional RHD or Continental HDR, were unavailable. Even the Michelins were scarce, assuming I wanted to pay $660 a tire (gulp). To top it all off, on virgin rubber, the difference in Federal Excise Tax between the two sizes came to $25 per tire. Once we regrouped and converged back on the 12R22.5 size, which itself was scarce in our tread pattern, we decided to again evaluate the Bandags, looking at capping our existing casings. That would have had us on blocks at the tire shop for three days, plus my casings are DOT 1304, making them five years old this month -- we'd only consider running them for another year or so, at most. In the end, I was able to locate a set of four Bridgestone M711's, the very same tire we were already running, with 4708 dates. Way more money than the Bandags, but I am confident I will get another four years and 80,000 miles or so out of them, which is what the last set gave me. We also switched out our cupped Goodyear 315/80R22.5 steer tires for a pair of virgin Firestone FS560s in the 12R22.5 size. I won't run recaps or used tires on the steer axle, but I was darned if I was going to put another set of $550 tires on an axle that has demonstrated a propensity to cup tires in a mere 20,000 miles or so. At least not until we can cure whatever is causing the premature wear. Total bill, with six tires, FET, CA state tax, mounting, and two spin-balance (steers only) came to $3,400. Of that, the drivers were $486 apiece, plus $36.76 FET. I think capping my existing casings would have run less than $200 apiece, and no FET at all. Posted to inform (or appall, as the case may be). I'd like to thank everyone who took the time to post their advice here. I think, had circumstances been just a bit different, we may well have gone with the re-treads. In fact, we may look at re-treading this set in about three year's time, before they are worn to the belts and when they still have a few years of casing life left. And I am certainly going to look into re-treading the tag tires when they wear out, or at least trading them for re-treads on clean casings. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com |