| Author | Message | ||
| Cullen Newsom (Cullennewsom)
Registered Member Username: Cullennewsom Post Number: 23 Registered: 2-2009 Posted From: 98.201.161.214 Rating: N/A |
When using two roof AC units on an RV park hookup, would it be better to use two smaller units, so as to avoid hitting the 30 Amp limit? Given the Choice of Roof AC units which do you recommend? Two 15k Two 13.5k Two 12k Thanks, -Cullen | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 773 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.11 Rating: N/A |
Cullen, You will likely not be able to run even two 13.5 units on a 30-amp service. These units draw about 13 amps while running steady-state, so that's 26 amps right there. A 30-amp service is rated to carry 24 amps continuously, so just two units running will eventually trip the breaker. Moreover, one unit will draw up to 20 amps to start up. So with the other unit running, you will almost certainly trip the breaker when the second unit starts. There is a way around this, which is to connect the units through a load-sharing inverter such at the Xantrex SW4024. This type of inverter allows you to "dial in" the amount of power you draw from the grid. So you can set it to 24 amps when on a 30-amp service. When the load exceeds the established parameter, the inverter automatically synchronizes to the grid, and begins inverting to "supplement" the load demand. The 4kW unit will easily start both A/C's. If both are running simultaneously (26 amps), you will be depleting the batteries very slowly. When one unit shuts down (they tend to cycle on and off as needed), the charger will take over and put energy back into the batteries. We can run two A/C's indefinitely on a 30-amp service this way. I don't think we could get away with two 15kBTU/h units, though. We had no choice -- height restrictions limited us to the 13.5's anyway. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Laryn Christley (Barn_owl)
Registered Member Username: Barn_owl Post Number: 600 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 72.66.165.33  Rating: N/A |
You will not go wrong with what Sean says. Being FT he has more experience than a whole bus load of the rest of us put together. Because I don’t know any better my experience has been that I haven’t had a problem running my two 13.5k units off of 30 amps. I have not had any tripped breakers or startup problems. I guess you can count me lucky. I am sure after my big trip out west in a few months I will be much wiser. Well will see. BTW Sean, I am about at the half-way point on going through your blog (backwards unfortunately). I just wanted you to know that I have found it to be a fantastic resource. I thank you for all of the effort you and your wife put into it. The videos are some of my favorite parts (put in more if you can). I am going to be traveling up 550 in CO and after seeing the video I can hardly wait. I also changed my route through WY to avoid 14 after reading about the 13 mile 10 percent grade. I can only encourage others to read your blog to find out what are some of the challenges, and joys, that can be had while traveling. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 751 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
Cullen, A 30 Amp 120 Volt park service is capable of 3600 Watts, theoretical perfect. Or put another way, the breaker will trip at about 30 Amps. Air conditioner efficiency is measured in SEER, or EER. EER is Energy Efficiency Ratio, SEER just has Seasonal put in front of it. SEER is an unreasonably high number, as it is measured in the low 70s inside, and the low 80s outside. All air conditioners put out less cooling, AND consume more electricity as the temperature rises. So, you buy two 15K 10 SEER units, expecting your bus to be cool on a hot day, because you are only drawing 3000 Watts from a 3600 Watt circuit? (The click you hear outside is the park breaker tripping.) A couple of 12K high efficiency units will usually run on a 30 amp service, and there are a lot of people here who will provide real world experience on how well the various size units work. HTH, George | ||
| Jim Wallin (Powderseeker01)
Registered Member Username: Powderseeker01 Post Number: 10 Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 70.59.57.29  Rating: N/A |
Hey Laryn, any chance of sharing Sean's blog link? Sounds very interesting. Living here in the Boulder area, it would be interesting to check out the videos you mentioned. Thanks! Jim | ||
| Nick Badame Refrigeration Co. (Dnick85)
Registered Member Username: Dnick85 Post Number: 275 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 70.208.54.174  Rating: N/A |
Hi Cullen, George is correct about temp rise. On a 85 deg. day your A/C should draw what the plate states as long as it has a clean condencer coil. As the temp rises, so does the amp draw. I have seen many new units draw as much as 20 amps each on very hot days such as 95 to 100 degs. There is not much difference between 13.5 and 15.000 btu units. I would opt for the larger every time. Good Luck Nick- | ||
| Cullen Newsom (Cullennewsom)
Registered Member Username: Cullennewsom Post Number: 24 Registered: 2-2009 Posted From: 98.201.161.214 Rating: N/A |
Jim, Sean's blog link is in his signature! -Cullen | ||
| Cullen Newsom (Cullennewsom)
Registered Member Username: Cullennewsom Post Number: 25 Registered: 2-2009 Posted From: 98.201.161.214 Rating: N/A |
Nick, Yeah my normal Modus Operandi is to get the biggest. But by the same token, I am familiar with ideal vs real world circuits. I reckon I will want to kick myself if I find myself sweating in Texas with only one AC running because the second one trips the breaker. I guess almost all RV parks have 50A service? But, on the other hand, I expect to spend some time at the in-law's, who don't; at least not yet. Many Thanks, -Cullen | ||
| John Lacey (Junkman42)
Registered Member Username: Junkman42 Post Number: 75 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 69.19.14.26  Rating: N/A |
Cullen, I have a adapter that I made up that has a dryer plug so that I can tap into the home of people I visit. It would pay to have both of the styles as most older homes have a different type than the newer homes. Regards John | ||
| Peter E (Sdibaja)
Registered Member Username: Sdibaja Post Number: 277 Registered: 5-2002 Posted From: 201.143.60.24 Rating: N/A |
this is a bit confusing to me. I had two rooftops on the 4905, both 13.5 I started them one at a time and could run both with only a few exceptions... one in Quartzsite and one up near Williams, and those were very old funky parts the running load is well below the starting load with most everything. | ||
| Cullen Newsom (Cullennewsom)
Registered Member Username: Cullennewsom Post Number: 26 Registered: 2-2009 Posted From: 129.7.53.155 Rating: N/A |
Peter, Thanks, this is good news to me. John, Now that you mention it, I remember my uncle had one of those, used it at my grandparents when I was a kid. Sounds like a handy device. | ||
| Cullen Newsom (Cullennewsom)
Registered Member Username: Cullennewsom Post Number: 27 Registered: 2-2009 Posted From: 129.7.53.155 Rating: N/A |
George, Thanks, I've not found many rooftop AC units that have an EER over 10. Is that what I should expect? It's probably because I always sort search results by price. I wonder if anyone has actually measured their Air Conditioners' power usage. Sean, I didn't know that (some) inverters were that awesome! That is quite nifty indeed. Larry, Jim, Everyone, Many thanks for all of your replies. Sean's/Louise's blog is one of the things that helped my wife and I decide to give this a try. Cheers! -Cullen | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 774 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.44 Rating: |
I'd like to clarify my earlier remarks in light of multiple people posting anecdotal evidence that two 13,500 BTU/h A/C's can be run on a 30-amp service. First off, I said it was unlikely (not impossible) that two 13.5 units could be run on a 30-amp service. I stand by this statement, regardless of testimony that it has been done before. There is a huge amount of variability involved in many factors here. Starting, of course, with what has been already mentioned: the outside temperature while the unit is running will have a dramatic effect on the current drawn. But also the humidity level, and the temperature differential (difference between outside and inside). As I am sure Nick will attest, there is also a good deal of variability due to manufacturing tolerances even between identical units from the same manufacturer. Anyone who has ever serviced an A/C system knows that small differences in the amount of refrigerant can impact compressor efficiency. And even whether the fins are clean, or perhaps dented, can be a factor. So, yes, it is possible that one might have two 13.5 units that are so well tuned and so clean that, under normal operating circumstances, they draw less than 12 amps each. But designing for this sort of ideal circumstance is probably not the best strategy. It is also the case that there is a high degree of variability in the tripping points of circuit breakers. Code stipulates, and manufacturers design to, an 80% continuous load based on the "handle rating" at "standard temperature." That means that, theoretically, a load of just 25 amps will, eventually, trip a 30-amp breaker (80% of 30 amps is 24 amps). In practice, however, it is often possible to draw 25, 26, even 27 amps continuously from a 30-amp breaker, especially if the breaker is located in a cool place. That said, as the temperature goes up around the breaker enclosure, the current at which the breaker will trip goes down. So under the very circumstances where you would want more cooling, which itself will take more current, the circuit breaker will pass less current. The entire problem is further exacerbated by distance from the power source. Every foot induces voltage drop, and in an induction motor system like an air conditioner, lower voltage means more current, further increasing the chances for a trip. Lastly, if one is tempted to use a 30-amp cord when on a 30-amp service, which is typically 10-gauge, the voltage drop will be even greater. So if you carry a 6-gauge cord for 50-amp service, you should use it under these circumstances even on a 30-amp receptacle. Do not forget, in all this, that the running current of one unit, plus the startup current of the second unit, will almost certainly exceed 30 amps under almost all circumstances. Whether or not this trips the breaker also depends on the design of the breaker's magnetic trip mechanism (a opposed to the thermal trip mechanism, which I've been discussing heretofore). Breakers designed explicitly for air conditioning loads have a built-in delay factor to account for starting current. However, you can not count on any given campground using this type of breaker, especially if it is an older park, for its 30-amp pedestals. So, while I do not dispute that some of you may have successfully run two 13.5 units on a 30-amp shore connection under some conditions, I feel that if you are designing for real-world conditions, wherein you might very well want or need to run two units in, say, 110° outside temperatures with >80% RH, on an older park service with a 30-amp breaker, you may be in for a rude awakening. All of this, BTW, is the reason why commercially manufactured rigs with 30-amp power inputs are wired such that only one air conditioner (if the rig accommodates more than one) can be used on shore power at a time. Usually, there is a switch someplace to select which A/C unit will operate on the shore power. To operate more than one unit, you need to start the generator.
Cullen -- the ~13-amp number I cited above for running load on a 13.5 was a real-world measurement for our units in "average" conditions (whatever that means). BTW, we have Dometic Penguin low-profile units, because that's the only unit that would fit our application when we bought. Today, Carrier has an attractive low-profile option as well. Thanks for the props on the blog. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Cullen Newsom (Cullennewsom)
Registered Member Username: Cullennewsom Post Number: 28 Registered: 2-2009 Posted From: 129.7.53.155 Rating: N/A |
I am glad to hear that many people's experience is that the 30A service tends to be robust and reliable, and able to handle two 13.5k units. I am the King of extension cords. I will have no mickey mouse® nonsense. I probably have some that would make do as tow-straps.
Don't worry, I'm not going to sue anybody. So, next question, how well do two A/C units cool a 45' coach in Texas, in August? Or am I the only one fool enough to stay in Texas in August? -Cullen | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 752 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
John, An "old style" dryer plug is properly described as 30 Amp 120/240 Volt. As you notice, it has 3 prongs, the two hot legs, and the NEUTRAL. Older dryers were either grounded thru the neutral, or with a seperate wire to a pipe ground, etc. The problem with doing as you decribe is that the three prongs in a 30 Amp 120 Volt RV plug are one hot leg, one NEUTRAL, and one GROUND. When you plug an adapter into an old style dryer receptacle, YOU CAN'T PROPERLY GROUND YOUR BUS! Depending upon how you made your adapter, you either left the ground disconnected, or you connected it to the neutral, both of which are dangerous! The requirement for a single point of ground+neutral bonding has been discussed here for years. Splicing the green and white wires together in an adapter connects the whole frame of your bus to the neutral wire. When something goes wrong with the neutral anywhere in the house or the bus, the frame of your bus will be energized. An excellent link to a site called HIPOINT was posted recently, which describes the consequences of improper wiring on boats. Also that a couple of nearby deaths were called drownings. My question is whether a couple of heart attacks near improperly wired RVs were actually electrocutions? Enough, you get my point. George | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 753 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
Sean, You've got my vote, and as usual, a well researched "article." Your comment on "...lower voltage equals more current..." explains it all. Circuit breakers trip on current only, so under good conditions, with nearly 120 Volts, and perfect power factor, two 13.5s will run on a 30 Amp breaker. The "new" style of breaker you describe is HACR, which are the initials for Heating and Air Conditioning Rated. They are designed not to trip from air conditioner starting surges, while still protecting against continuous overloading. Anyhow, thanks for excellent article. Regards, George | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 775 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.44 Rating: N/A |
Sorry to say, you are not. Generally, we try to stay out of deep south Texas (where you have to go north to get to Mexico) at that time of the year, but last year Hurricane Dolly had other plans for us. If you go back to July and August of last year in the blog you can get a feel for it. Suffice it to say, even in our very well insulated coach, we had to run all three roof airs (13.5 each) full-time during the day to keep cool in the 100+ heat. Now, you could conceivably get by with less, if you were willing to compartmentalize the coach, and leave some areas un-cooled during certain times. For example, close off the bedroom during the day, and maybe the front of the salon / driver area at night. We could often drop down to one or two units over night. Of course, YMMV. We have a lot of glass, which does not help (but really good thermal blinds). Also, if you can park mostly in the shade, that helps too -- we are limited by needing to keep a clear view to our internet satellite from the part of the roof with the dish. Awnings on both sides help -- a lot. Are you trying to keep to just two units for the coach, or trying to keep to a 30-amp power budget? If the former, you'd be better off with two 15kBTU/h units. If the latter, I think you'd be better off with three 13.5's, and then being able to choose which two of the three you run at any given moment. That also, of course, gives you the option to run all three when a 50-amp park service is available. If you do seriously want to be able to run two 13.5's simultaneously on a 30-amp service of unknown vintage, I strongly recommend the investment in a load-sharing inverter. SW4024's can be had as factory-refurbs for as little as $1,500, and I don't think you'd regret that purchase, from a variety of standpoints (not just running ACs). -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (Message edited by Sean on March 11, 2009) | ||
| Nick Badame Refrigeration Co. (Dnick85)
Registered Member Username: Dnick85 Post Number: 276 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 70.208.54.174 Rating: |
Hi Sean, Yes, I can attest that two identical units side by side will not always draw the same amprage. Perhaps, the folks that can run 2 13.5's on a 30a curcuit may also have 1 or more systems low on refrigerant. One of the very first test we do on a service call is amp it out! This tells a story of weather it's low on refrigerant or not, amongst other things too. These systems do not come from the factory with service ports/valves to check refrigerant levels so, we measure the amp draw. Anything lower the plate specs is usually low on charge. At that point we tap a valve to add the proper amount to the system. Then we rechech the amp draw again. You would be suprized how many units run with less then perfect charge. And they actually run a colder evap temp because they are now on the verge of freezing up. And may do so at night or with a clogged intake filter thus slowing the air speed across the evap. resulting in iceing conditions. All refrigeration systems leak! with a hundred or so weld joints, some leak faster then others but, none are perfect. So, yes.. you would be suprized of the amount that run low on charge.. Good Luck Nick- | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 834 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.95.84  Rating: N/A |
Cullen - ----------- Description: Run both your air conditioners on only 20/30 amps of park power or a 4 KW generator. Cycle both your RV air conditioners alternately, keeping both living and bedroom areas cool. Also cycles your heat strips on and off. Pulse-Air® eliminates your worries about power drops, burned-out compressors or accidental circuit breaker tripping. Saves gas. Control box is 6 1/2" L x 4 1/2" W x 3 1/2" D. Draws 5 watts max. USA. NOTE: Not for use with Duo-Therm Penguin touch pad control air conditioners. Tech Specs Weight: 1.7 lbs. Install Fee: $61.00 Warranty: Mfr. one year warranty. http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/item/pulse-air-/9320 ----------- "There are dozens of ways to skin the neighbor's cat." (Alf - 1996) | ||
| Cullen Newsom (Cullennewsom)
Registered Member Username: Cullennewsom Post Number: 31 Registered: 2-2009 Posted From: 98.201.161.214 Rating: N/A |
That looks slick. Thanks John! -Cullen | ||
| Cullen Newsom (Cullennewsom)
Registered Member Username: Cullennewsom Post Number: 32 Registered: 2-2009 Posted From: 98.201.161.214 Rating: N/A |
\quote {Are you trying to keep to just two units for the coach, or trying to keep to a 30-amp power budget? } Planning for what I think is a typical worst-case. -Cullen | ||
| Larry Baird (Airhog)
Registered Member Username: Airhog Post Number: 149 Registered: 1-2001 Posted From: 159.115.184.169 Rating: N/A |
Oh goodie I can have fun with this topic. I have 5 (five ) 15's on my MC-7 two on one 5kw generator 1 on another 5kw generator, one on the house plug 30 amp. and one on another cord the I can plug into the 50 amp socket if I want and they have one. The lic. on my bus is "AIRHOG"! Larry  | ||
| Cullen Newsom (Cullennewsom)
Registered Member Username: Cullennewsom Post Number: 33 Registered: 2-2009 Posted From: 98.201.161.214 Rating: N/A |
Is that some Shoopin' tha Whoop? | ||
| Cullen Newsom (Cullennewsom)
Registered Member Username: Cullennewsom Post Number: 34 Registered: 2-2009 Posted From: 98.201.161.214 Rating: N/A |
 | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 776 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.20 Rating: N/A |
Note that this is a very apt description of what this device does -- it cycles between two units alternately. What it does not do is allow you to run two units simultaneously. If you can cool a whole 45' coach with 15,000 BTU/hr, this device will allow you to split that amount of cooling between two different areas (such as bedroom and living room, as the ad copy says). Note that you could achieve the same result by ducting a single unit to both places. If what you need to cool your 45' coach is 30,000 BTU/hr, this device will not help you achieve that. FWIW. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Wec4104 (Wec4104)
Registered Member Username: Wec4104 Post Number: 21 Registered: 7-2008 Posted From: 68.80.242.72 Rating: N/A |
The latest comments have got me thinking about how the A/C operates and have a question I am sure you guys can answer. In the hottest situations, when the A/C cannot cool the room to the thermostat temp, does the compressor run virtually 100% of the time? Or is it designed so that there is still some cycling that takes place? | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 417 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.53.158.74  Rating: N/A |
Wec: when an a/c unit is running the fan usually runs all the time and the compressor will cycle depending on the t-stat setting. Now the compressor in hot weather will generally not shut down[cycle] unless you have a pressure switch that will shut it off untill the pressure stabilizies. Most small units have NO pressure controls on them like the large units, and will run continuous until temp is satisified. On hot days with mine, cruise air basments,heat pumps, they just keep a trucking until the t-stat says I am down/up to temp. Hope this helps. Oh PLEASE keep the filters clean and serviced on a regular basis for optium preformance!!! Gomer | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 669 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.32.92.133 Rating: N/A |
Gomer, I don't have the basement model Cursair but 3 of the split system do you know if they have a pressure switch they act like they do good luck | ||
| Nick Badame Refrigeration Co. (Dnick85)
Registered Member Username: Dnick85 Post Number: 277 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 76.124.92.192 Rating: N/A |
Hi Cliff, The cruisair splits Do have low psi switches in them. They will cycle the condencing unit off when it drops below a preset psi. A good way to check this is to notice if your evaporator fan in running in the bus and the t-stat is calling for cooling. Then if the condencing unit is cycled off, it is most likly cycled off on low psi switch. At this point you should have your freon level checked. Now, they also have a high psi switch which will give you the same symptoms. If cycled off on high psi, you could have either a clogged condencer, poor air circulation to the condencer, or a non working condencer fan motor. Good Luck Nick- | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 368 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 72.12.39.78  Rating: N/A |
Hey, Nick. Is that what they call a "trinary" switch or is that still a binary???? Or am I thinking of something different? Thanks, BH NC (Message edited by oonrahnjay on March 12, 2009) | ||
| Larry Baird (Airhog)
Registered Member Username: Airhog Post Number: 150 Registered: 1-2001 Posted From: 71.102.9.224 Rating: N/A |
Cullen, I don't need to photoshop to have a bus, I have had this bus for 10 years. I just put a 8V71T and a RTO in so I can drag my Jeep at 75 MPH running 1700 RPM and it works well. Took this picture at Boulder Creek in Lone Pine, CA where I keep it most the time and yes it does have 5 air units. Larry  | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 836 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.200.168 Rating: N/A |
You should at least install a 15K in the front as close to the driver as possible. Believe me on this! I would also install the second one closer to the front than rear. Don't install the other one too close to the bed, you will be sorry if you do. Too much noise and too cold at night. Sunshine is enemy number one.This goes double if either your roof or bus is a dark color. At night, in cloudy weather or in the shade is no challenge High humidity (South TX)is also a big problem, this puts a huge extra load on any AC. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 553 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 70.212.231.218 Rating: N/A |
Glass is the BIG culprit.....  ... FWIW RCB | ||
| Nick Badame Refrigeration Co. (Dnick85)
Registered Member Username: Dnick85 Post Number: 278 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 70.211.6.220 Rating: N/A |
Hi Bruce, That would be trinary for fan switching. Not much call for binary anymore..Lol Nick- | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 369 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 72.12.39.78 Rating: N/A |
Thanks, Nick. I'm starting on ground zero for "house" A/C. | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 74 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190  Rating: N/A |
What has me wondering (off topic) is ??? what do the mig, the ufo and dolphin know (they seem to be fleeing that pretty girl in the "weiny bikiny") that the canadian pirate ship don't (they are still head her for her at full mast) ? ;;; and please nothing from the naysayers telling me that picture is fake; I am taking a real stab at this make believe stuff today ! | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 835 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 98.70.64.128 Rating: N/A |
Clint - What is that dog doing in that picture? Is he drinking an anti-freeze spill, or is that urine? | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 837 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.200.168 Rating: N/A |
You should at least install a 15K in the front as close to the driver as possible. Believe me on this! I would also install the second one closer to the front than rear. Don't install the other one too close to the bed, you will be sorry if you do. Too much noise and too cold at night. Sunshine is enemy number one.This goes double if either your roof or bus is a dark color. At night, in cloudy weather or in the shade is no challenge High humidity (South TX)is also a big problem, this puts a huge extra load on any AC. | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 75 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190 Rating: N/A |
she... well I am not sure, which is why I chose that bus picture for my logo as I was hoping someone could tell me. I took the picture a few months back with my very cheap new digital (shindogu brand) camera, the tiny screen doesn't allow one to actual see what there taking a picture of. Moe is perhaps one of the most willful dogs I have ever meet; so I believe I had ask her to pose, so she most likely is faking a "puc", just to give me a hard time. She tries real hard to hate me , but actually loves everyone else. Not much to go on, but perhaps the board will be up to there best guesses as that is what we do here. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 838 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.200.40 Rating: N/A |
Sorry about the duplicate post. I tried to delete it and got this message; "Sorry, but the message you were attempting to delete was posted more than 0 minutes ago. You are not permitted to delete messages more than 0 minutes old. If the message needs to be deleted, contact a moderator, who can delete the message for you through the administration program. Please contact Ian Giffin if this problem persists. "??? This is not real clear to me?? | ||
| Debbie and Joe Cannarozzi (Joe_camper)
Registered Member Username: Joe_camper Post Number: 138 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 71.239.202.82 Rating: N/A |
Everyone has completely mist the target on the replies. WHAT are you doing building it to 30amp specs???????? Your bus should be powered by a 50 amp cord end of story. If you have a decent battery charger that will pull more than the a/c when the bats are low and that is just one other possible draw of MANY. 30 amp requires much to much compromise that is not necessary when the availability of 50 amp service is so widespread. | ||
| Jim Wallin (Powderseeker01)
Registered Member Username: Powderseeker01 Post Number: 11 Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 70.59.57.29 Rating: N/A |
Alot of places offer both 30 and 50 amp service. But sometimes, like where we are, each pole serves two sites and contains only one 50 and one 30 amp hookup. So who ever gets there first gets the 50. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 778 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 72.171.0.146 Rating: N/A |
Joe, I don't think he said he was installing only a 30-amp system in his coach. He simply asked whether two units would run on a 30-amp service. This is a legitimate question, even if you build a 50-amp coach (and I will point out that, if you have two air conditioners, code actually requires the coach to be wired for 50 amps). The simple reason is that 30-amp service is far more common. Many, many state and federal campgrounds have a maximum of 30-amp service. Many older commercial parks also have only 30-amp service. And I will tell you from experience that many state parks have even less -- 20 amp max. If you travel much in Mexico, you will find mostly 20- or 15-amp service, and, in many cases, inadequate voltage even at that. So it is wise indeed to design your systems to run well on 30-amp. We can run our coach indefinitely in temperate weather on 8 amps. 15 amps will allow us to run one air conditioner full time indefinitely. With 30 amps we can run two air conditioners (and everything else we need) indefinitely. We don't get uncomfortable until the outside temperatures crest above 95 or so, at which point we will seek out either 30-amp/240-volt, or a traditional 50-amp service. If a 50-amp pedestal is included in our camp site rent, we will use it. But seldom will we pay extra for it if 30-amp is cheaper. If one designs a coach, as you suggest, so that it requires or assumes a 50-amp service in order to be fully operational, then they are, IMO, limiting where they will be able to stay, especially in hot weather. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com (Message edited by Sean on March 13, 2009) (Message edited by Sean on March 13, 2009) (Message edited by Sean on March 14, 2009) | ||
| Debbie and Joe Cannarozzi (Joe_camper)
Registered Member Username: Joe_camper Post Number: 139 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 71.239.202.82 Rating: N/A |
I think he is putting a bus together and he is choosing components. I can not remember the last time I was at a park that did not have it. Even with no itinerary a quick surf on the mobile net lands us in one and if planning a trip ahead it is a guarantee we will get it. Our bus does not limit us quite the contrary. A person can always go from 50 down to 30 when necessary but unfortunately you can not do the opposite. I did not design our bus but the converter certainly did not design it to require 50 amp either. We do not need any power. I do however carry enough creature comforts to make sure we are more than comfortable where possible and I just assumed that there were many others like us. and yes that does require 50 amps sometimes. Sean I do not mind if you think that is foolish but I am surprised that comment is coming from a guy that incorporated a portable inflatable hot tub into the conversion? You did say you have 50 amp built in and do use it where available. If you don't need it could that added expense to install it be viewed as foolish? I am confused. I am also quite sure many think we are foolish for owing a 42000lb motorhome that gets 5mpg We think they may be foolish. Go figure. (Message edited by Joe Camper on March 14, 2009) | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 836 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.92.239 Rating: N/A |
AARRAAGGHHH... Re: "if you build a 50-amp coach (and I will point out that, if you have two air conditioners, code actually requires the coach to be wired for 50 amps). " Does "the code enforcer" summons every older motorhome owner to court, that has two AC units on it's roof, and only a 30 amp system? That's the way they were all built, and they functioned very well. They managed very nicely, not to burn down the trailer parks, or fry the dogs of it's visitors (Clint, take note). There is absolutely no reason, legal or otherwise, to build a 50 amp system into any RV that has two AC units on it's roof. I would very strongly suggest that anyone building a motorhome, (or that is revamping one) (as I had), convert and rewire to a 50 amp system for every practical reason. But if one desired to only utilize a 30 amp service, and build their RV to that specification, then that's exactly what they can do..... and not go to prison for it. Good grief man.. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 837 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.92.239 Rating: N/A |
Cullen - You would be best advised to build your coach to the specifications of the "latest and greatest". But if you desire, and can only afford the least expensive, you work the technicalities out later, and use what you can afford right now. You can install whatever BTU rated AC unit you want on your roof, and manage to get them to run. There isn't any reason to use less than you want (i.e.: use a 8.5 rather than a 13.5kbtu). But you will have to provide power to them to get them to run. There are adapters that can be used at the older RV parks that you can buy or build. They will allow you to use one RV Park outlet for one AC unit, and power the second AC unit from another park outlet. We had to run the genset to power the rear AC unit while using the park power for the front, in our old Winnebago more than once! Avid older RV'rs have used these devices for years, without killing anyone. Even with an RV built with 50 amp service, the only way to power both AC units at a park with 30 amp service, would be with a device like that. For any of the older motorhome technology, try searching the RV websites available. You'll find simple solutions to problems without hearing about "code violations", and having to endure the hassle of "I know best" from those that mean well, but have become lost in the red tape of life. Cheers, my friend. | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 77 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190 Rating: N/A |
...you have red ink; now I feel like a somewhat inferior devils advocate when compared to you MCJohnnine !!! | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 779 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 72.171.0.142 Rating: |
Well, John, first off, pointing out that "that's the way we used to do things 30 years ago, so it must be safe" is a ridiculous argument. You may remember we used to make floor tiles out of asbestos then, too, and that turned out to be a truly bad idea. This is the reason why codes evolve over time -- because we learn that some things are not safe. Secondly, virtually every rig built by the manufacturer with two air conditioners on a 30-amp system, had a switch that was used to select which of the two units would run on shore power. They were wired such that both units could not be run together on shore power -- only on the generator. The code provides for this arrangement. And, for the record, yes, you can start a fire by overloading a circuit, and, indeed, trailer parks have burned to the ground this way. This is precisely the reason why the code makes this stipulation. As I have said here many, many times, these sorts of safety codes have generally been paid for in blood.
Once again, John, you are just plain wrong. The National Electric Code, which has been adopted into law in all 50 states, in section 551.42(c), which discusses 30-amp systems, says, in part, that "Not more than two 120-volt thermostatically controlled appliances (e.g., air conditioner and water heater) shall be installed in such systems unless appliance isolation switching, energy management systems, or similar methods are used." I say this, really, for the benefit of everyone else, because, John, I already know from four years of arguments with you just like this one, that you, personally, are exempt from all laws and codes, are smarter than the engineers involved in writing them, and don't give a damn about what anyone else thinks, so long as it is your personal opinion that something is safe. I perceive by your language, tone, and use of color that you are quite tired of me pointing out all these pesky little safety rules -- rules that have but one purpose: to save lives. Well, let me assure you the feeling is mutual. I am equally tired of you contradicting me every time, stomping around and telling the entire community that rules are for morons, we, after all, are bus nuts, and so we know better. Burn your own coach to the ground if you'd like, I really don't care any more. But other people come here to learn, and they deserve to get FACTUAL information about how to do things safely. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 780 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 72.171.0.142 Rating: |
Joe, that was a poor choice of words on my part. I did not mean to imply that you personally were being foolish in how your coach is built, and I apologize if that's the way it came across. What I meant was that it would be foolish for anyone to build a system that presumed that 50-amp power would be available. The wording of your post, "Your bus should be powered by a 50 amp cord end of story. ... 30 amp requires much to much compromise ... the availability of 50 amp service is so widespread" seemed to me to suggest that the OP question about running two airs on 30-amps would be irrelevant if he simply built a 50-amp coach, and that is decidedly not the case. My apologies if I misunderstood what you were saying. (BTW, the hot tub does not use shore power. It is heated with diesel and the pump runs on the batteries.)
Well, actually, the way we designed our coach, we could very easily have gotten by with a 30-amp connection. It would mean (as it does when we only have a 30-amp service available) that we could only run two out of three roof airs (the third one is automatically locked out), and the battery charger would be very, very slow when the airs are running. That said, first off, the code requires it (see above). Unlike my good friend John, I don't have any exemptions from either codes or the laws of physics. Moreover, the additional expense of a 50-amp system over a 30-amp system can be measured at perhaps a few hundred dollars at most, and, for most coaches, I would guess less than $200. A paltry sum compared to the total cost of a conversion. As you yourself suggested, why cut that corner when, by having it, I have the option of enjoying the luxury of four air conditioners running simultaneously, along with full-power battery charging, on those occasions when a 50-amp service is available? -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 908 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 173.78.29.189 Rating: N/A |
It might be beneficial if the "code" had pictures of the consequences of noncompliance - You can survive many years being ignorant of the "codes" - but it only takes moments for you to take the lives of you and/or your loved ones with the same blade of ignorance - As Sean has said most of the "codes" were paid for in blood - If you don't agree with the "codes" at least provide some salient argument as to the invalidity of the "code" - If your argument is that "I don't follow it and I'm still alive" - count yourself as lucky, hope the others that follow your simplistic logic are as lucky, and please provide adequate liability insurance for those that may follow within said ignorance - I have often privately questioned Sean's and others sanity in offering solutions to complex electrical questions queried on this and other boards - mainly in their reliance on the ability of novices in explaining the nuances of their circutry - nonetheless he and others have offered quite qualified and detailed explanations and instructions helpful to all who have partaken - those who have listened have benefitted - those who have not may never have been heard from for good reason - and for those of you whom mistakenly identify "ignorance" with stupidity I offer the following definition: ig⋅no⋅rant   /ˈɪgnərənt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ig-ner-uhnt] Show IPA –adjective 1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man. 2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics. 3. uninformed; unaware. 4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement. Don't let your ignorance kill you or some one you love! | ||
| Josh McElhiney (Zcommanager)
Registered Member Username: Zcommanager Post Number: 39 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 32.178.2.173 Rating: N/A |
WOW! Quite a heated debate at this fine early morning hour! Sean & Niles~ I tend to agree with you in that most often codes are put in place as they have been paid with the blood of a fellow human. Sean~ As one who is still fairly new to the motor coach world, I appreciate the knowledge with which you share regarding considerations of coach building. Great Blog too!! It is fun reading of others travels and experiences of life in a motor coach. Kind of a vicarious thrill for those of whom which are not yet there, I suppose. Good Things, Josh | ||
| don goldsmith (Bottomacher)
Registered Member Username: Bottomacher Post Number: 240 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 72.15.86.59 Rating: N/A |
Does anyone know of an accurate, valid and complete guide to wiring a bus conversion? I'm not talking about the code- that is concerned mostly with minimums and requirements, and not actual how-tos. I don't want to do this job but once, and it's getting pretty thick with wiring for 30 amps AND 50 amps and inverter supplement and what gets grounded to what and must-haves and must-nots, etc. I am anything but uninitiated in building things, but this stuff is getting out of hand. Thanks for any good advice. Don | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 279 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 74.244.14.221  Rating: N/A |
FWIW I have only 50 amp and as Sean mentions this does exclude me from staying some places...state parks come to mind...but on the flip side where I have traveled there have always been places that had 50 amp available even if it wasn't my first choice | ||
| Patrick levenson (Zubzub)
Registered Member Username: Zubzub Post Number: 72 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 70.51.19.45  Rating: N/A |
Every time I read one of these AC threads I am amused at how hot under the collar everyone gets. Is it possible that with all of this bluster you have all forgotten to turn on your air conditioners? | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 554 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.209.155.132 Rating: N/A |
I think you may have misinterpreted what Sean was conveying...If you have 50 Amp setup, all you need is an Adapter Plug to use 30 Amp service... I have never had a problem with that combination. Just does not provide the amount of service to run heavy loads... FWIW  RCB | ||
| Don Evans (Doninwa)
Registered Member Username: Doninwa Post Number: 190 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 208.81.157.90  Rating: N/A |
Don Goldsmith, I have found good info on the actual wiring in the online manuals by Xantrex. They have examples of various installations. Don 4107 | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 781 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.23 Rating: N/A |
I favor Designing Electrical Layouts for Coach Conversions by George Myers. Available (along with many other great how-to books) here: www.busnut.com/epicconversionsupport.html I also think you should go read, at minimum, article 551 of the code, which you can usually find at the library. But George is well-versed in the code, and his book conveys the relevant points as well. No relation or financial interest... -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 782 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.23 Rating: N/A |
Here you go: http://www.rvappraisals.com/fire-investigations.htm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdq4Yoy_GNc http://westcoast911.com/wp/2008/01/30/man-dies-in-motor-home-fire-las-vegas/ http://www.columbiamissourian.com/stories/2009/01/26/cause-trailor-fire-determined-electri cal-malfunction/ http://www.morningjournal.com/articles/2009/01/15/news/mj473421.txt http://www.havredailynews.com/articles/2007/08/07/local_headlines/local.prt and many more... -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 783 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.23 Rating: N/A |
Tim, As Chuck said, I think you missed part of what I wrote. If you have a 50-amp system in your coach, you can still use a 30-amp service -- we do it all the time. There are adapters for just this purpose, typically called "dogbone" adapters because of their appearance. The problem comes in if you have not arranged your loads in such a way that you can still operate everything you need when connected to such a service. You need to carefully manage the loads so that you do not draw much more than 24 amps, otherwise the campground pedestal breaker will trip, as I discussed early in this thread. At least it will trip, which is more than can be said for making a connection the other way around. There are also dogbone adapters to connect a 30-amp rig to a 50-amp receptacle, which I consider dangerous. In this case, it is possible to draw much more than the 30 amps for which the rig's wiring is designed, without benefit of a breaker to trip at the appropriate point. Fortunately, this is seldom necessary; most pedestals that have a 50-amp receptacle also have a 30-amp receptacle with an appropriate breaker. However, if you have a 30-amp rig and ever intend to use a 50-to-30 dogbone, I usually advise the installation of a 30-amp main breaker in the coach (if not already so equipped) to preclude drawing more than that from the shore cord. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Peter E (Sdibaja)
Registered Member Username: Sdibaja Post Number: 278 Registered: 5-2002 Posted From: 201.143.60.24 Rating: N/A |
Sean: I don't know what your code books say but it is common practice to always have a main breaker: house, boat, RV, whatever. and if the shore power cord and fixtures are only good for X amps then the main breaker would be X amps or less. or am I confused on this? All: there used to be a 99 cent paperback "wiring Simplified" that all hardware stores had, mine is a 1974 issue. it has all the basics, the principals are the same, and the code has not changed in a notable way. If that book is too much of a challenge then an electrician should be consulted. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 784 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.23 Rating: N/A |
Peter, The "main breaker" for a shore connection is presumed by the code to be the one at the pedestal supplying the service receptacle. "Alternate supply" sources such as generators and inverters are required to individually also have main breakers. So yes, it is possible to construct (and many have) code-compliant RV's without a separate "main" breaker between the shore cord and the distribution panel. As long as the rig is connected to the type of power supply for which it was intended (and, BTW, the code requires a label at the shore inlet specifying the required type of service), it is perfectly safe, and the main disconnect and overcurrent protection requirements are satisfied. It is only when a jury-rig is used to adapt a 30-amp (or smaller) rig to a larger service that a problem could arise, and this is why I personally recommend main breakers at the shore inlet for rigs with less than 50-amp systems. The code has, indeed, changed considerably since 1974. Among many changes introduced since then are requirements pertaining to GFCI circuits, number and placement of required outlets, specific requirements for RV generators and inverters, and sizing requirements for RV systems. The full list is, of course, much longer. Books such as electrician's pocket references and the one you suggested, while useful references in their own right, do not tell the whole story where RV's are concerned. There are many specialized requirements for RVs, some which have serious safety implications. This is why I recommend a guide that deals with these issues specifically. Hope you enjoyed our blog, it appears you surfed around there for a while. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 839 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.200.78 Rating: N/A |
Patrick, We always have a few posters who think that when they recommend something the questioner is obligated to do as they say!! They are also highly insulted when someone points out some of their errors. This seems to be so on many other forums as well. It is unfortunate that some posters don't seem to realize that the forum is a source for suggestions and ideas not a place to be told what to do. It is also unfortunate that often when one asks for actual experiences the result is a lot of opinions from posters who have no experiences with the item in question. These frustrations are just part of a public forum I guess. The only thing I know to do with ranters and ravers is ignore them. Nothing else seems to work. | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 280 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 74.244.14.221 Rating: N/A |
Sean, I have considered a dogbone for my coach and as you say it will handle the 110 loads the problem is two of my rooftop AC's, stove, furnace etc are 220 so a dogbone won't help those loads. I didn't design it but I don't feel it has handicapped me enough to change it | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 785 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.23 Rating: N/A |
Tim, Sorry, I did not catch that you had 240-volt equipment on board. In this case, you are absolutely right that you do need a genuine, 50-amp (120/240-volt) shore connection to run that equipment. Part of my recommendation to those designing coaches from scratch is to avoid, if possible, 240-volt equipment for this reason. What sort of roof airs do you have that require 240? -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 555 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.209.161.90 Rating: N/A |
Gus...while many understand what you are saying in the above post, methinks that "beauty"...is in the eye of the beholder. Many of us are pretty well versed...in our opinions...and most probably offer it for what it may be worth to the reader. Many have expertise. hands on experience and certainly, educated "opinion", perhaps from "hard knocks". I have always thought and respected that type education, and, as stated elsewhere on this board, I personally have a PhD in those "hardknocks"... Having said that. seems to me that in a forum such as this, one (all) should take the information that is freely, and in most cases, honestly and heartfelt-ly presented for consideration. Personal attacks aside and unwelocmed by most. True...some have pretty strong feelings on their thinking, but the LORD provided each of us with freedom of choice....(Thank God!!)... and we , in the end, can ... Do it our way... Take it lightly, folks, but WE ALL...each one of US... have "opinions"...be they right or????? Thanx for the opportunity, Ian...and readers RCB | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 281 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 74.244.14.221 Rating: N/A |
The roof airs that are 240 are old Dometic units my 120 roof air is a coleman | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 786 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.23 Rating: |
All, As my wife says, I should not post late at night, particularly if I have had a glass of wine. I am going to take this opportunity to apologize to John and to everyone for my rant here last night. While I did not say anything that was not factual, I let my emotions get the better of me, and I know that detracts from my message. In the calm light of another day (and just now taking my first sip for the evening), I can see that my words were unnecessarily harsh. Nothing gets me worked up more than the topic of safety. I know this community is, generally, very safety-conscious, and it troubles me when anyone here suggests that safety rules are not well-founded or can be ignored without consequence. Mostly and especially, I would be saddened to learn of anyone on this board losing their life or their loved ones in a conversion-related accident, and especially if that was the result of doing something that they read about here. I have been involved in life safety for over three decades now, and, by way of explaining my strong feelings in this regard, I will share with you a story from nearly 20 years ago. At the time, I was the designated emergency response coordinator and building manager where I worked, in a building on the Stanford University campus near Palo Alto, California. There was a rather attractive and well-liked young woman in my department, who had a number of potted plants in her cubicle. She used real clay pots for her plants, some rather large, perhaps 8-10" diameter and about that tall, with clay "saucers" underneath. She sat in a "cubicle" made from office partitions, and she had the plants on top of what is known as a "binder bin," a sort of bookshelf attachment secured to the cubicle partitions. The partitions were nearly 5' tall, and, with the binder bins at the very top, her potted plants were close to the 6' level. As the designated safety czar, I was constantly asking her to move the plants down to her desk, or, at the very least, to replant them in plastic pots. This went on for months, to the point where it became a constant argument -- she protested about the plants not getting light, and this was not really dangerous, and what right did I have to keep harassing her about it. I would explain over and over again that it was a safety violation, how the clay pots could become deadly missiles, that it also violated university policy, and that, ultimately, I was responsible for her safety. I would sometimes move the plants myself, and she would put them right back. I was young, inexperienced, and not forceful enough. Also, I was unwilling to truly p_ss off someone I happened to like, and the fact that she was attractive no doubt clouded my judgment as well. Then, one day, it happened. On the pleasant afternoon of October 17th, 1989, a magnitude 7.0 earthquake struck, its epicenter just a dozen or so miles away. Her cube, like my office, was on the fourth floor, where the building moved a good 3-4' in either direction during the 15 seconds of abject terror. I happened to be in the little kitchen on our floor, where I was able to cram myself under the sink, narrowly avoiding being struck by the falling 50+ pound water cooler, and coffee mugs and dishware flying out of the overhead cabinets. When the shaking stopped, I raced out, quickly gathered my team, and we began search, rescue, and evacuation procedures. During the quake, I had heard the woman scream from across the room, and I feared the worst. It was the first place I checked, and I found her under her desk, crying. The pots from the potted plants were in shards all around her, and, while her injuries were minor, she had narrowly missed being hit in the head by whole potted plants weighing over 20 lbs each, which could have been fatal from that height. Instead, she was pelted with shards as the plants hit the desk and other furniture. The image (as you can see) has stuck with me. After it was all over, I asked myself over and over again why I had not been more forceful about the safety violations. Why did I not, literally, throw away those clay pots before they could become deadly missiles in an earthquake? I could only thank my lucky stars that they had not killed or seriously injured the person I was charged with protecting. In the ensuing years, I have been scorned, ridiculed, and even threatened over my unwavering insistence on adherence to life safety standards and rules. But never have I lost an employee or charge to a safety-related oversight. I vowed that I would never come that close again. As has been pointed out here many times, advice on these forums is freely given, and sometimes it is only worth what you have paid for it. You are certainly free to ignore it, but, mostly, I hope you will take what you learn here and then do your own research, to arrive at a decision that you can live with. Again, I am sorry for losing my temper here on the board. I sincerely hope that, having done so, does not diminish in your mind the validity of my advice. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 556 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.209.161.90 Rating: N/A |
Sean...you are forgiven, I am sure! One thing I learned a long time ago...as well as any here, is ... ....extremism is not particularly a virtue...or, sometimes, well accepted by most in this society. And again...thank the LORD, we are a free people. Enjoy life....and thanks for your 'input'. RCB | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 787 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.23 Rating: N/A |
Thanks, Chuck. It was actually your comment, "... Personal attacks aside and unwelocmed by most," that caused me to re-read my earlier post in a calmer moment, and realize that I had, ahem, violated the standards of decorum here on the forum. Thanks for the reminder. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Laryn Christley (Barn_owl)
Registered Member Username: Barn_owl Post Number: 601 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 72.66.165.33 Rating: N/A |
Sean, All I can say is that one day I hope I can meet you and your wife just to say thank you. These topics are very important to me. I have made corrections to the wiring that the PO did because of what I learn here on the board. Like not having the bus chassis grounded when hooked up to shore power. I am still learning, and working on making safety improvements to my bus all of the time. It seems like time and money are my biggest obstacles. I am doing a little rewiring trying to get ready for my trip and part of that is adding GFIs. Its one thing if I do something stupid and hurt myself, it’s another to hurt someone that is innocent because of my actions or inactions. Thanks again, Laryn | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 838 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.235.211.171 Rating: N/A |
Wow. Oh, but the embers die hard.... Hey, listen Sean.... Regarding this comment: "Once again, John, you are just plain wrong. The National Electric Code, which has been adopted into law in all 50 states, in section 551.42(c), which discusses 30-amp systems, says, in part, that "Not more than two 120-volt thermostatically controlled appliances (e.g., air conditioner and water heater) shall be installed in such systems unless appliance isolation switching, energy management systems, or similar methods are used." " It's really just semantics, Sean. My point was (and remains), that an individual can build a decent 30 amp system if he chooses to, and do so as safely as he could build a 50 amp system. (I don't know why anyone would want less than a 50 amp system, but that wasn't the original question) And with that same 30 amp system, he could have as many AC units on his roof as he wants, and not be in conflict with "Dah Code". I really couldn't understand why you would argue with that, since that red text above, points out the manner it can be done according to that very "code". Weird, isn't it? And for gawds sake, Sean.... Don't drink yourself to death because of me. (not that I'm not worth it) You've always worked the conversation well enough, to eventually explain exactly what the code means. To me Sean, that is more important to do, than what some other do, when they simply state the code and insist we follow it. A clear understanding is not always easy to draw out of an engineer. Cheers, my friend. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 788 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.23 Rating: N/A |
I drink to forget, John. That's why I have to blog to remember... -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Nick Badame Refrigeration Co. (Dnick85)
Registered Member Username: Dnick85 Post Number: 279 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 75.197.251.51 Rating: N/A |
It takes a big man to apologize! I learned the hard way as a Mod at MAK that no matter weather you are right or wrong, when you jump into an argument, You Always Loose..... Have a great night Nick- | ||
| H3-40 (Ace)
Registered Member Username: Ace Post Number: 957 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 75.250.157.22  Rating: N/A |
Uhh.... Nick, not always! Ace | ||
| don goldsmith (Bottomacher)
Registered Member Username: Bottomacher Post Number: 241 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 72.15.86.59 Rating: N/A |
Don, Sean and Peter: I appreciate the responses. I know of George Myers' books, but I was afraid they were outdated by now. I called him yesterday to order some. I am a retired general contractor, and I have wired more than 30 houses by myself in the past. Houses don't have generators and inverters, though, and they don't ground to a power pole that may have been installed by a chimpanzee, so basic wiring books don't answer my questions. I am currently looking for a Xantrex inverter and I'll check out the online manuals. Thanks again to all of you. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 557 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.210.25.177 Rating: N/A |
Don...my experience is akin to yours. I too, used George's book and it was very helpful in many ways.... ... plus the expertise of so many on this particular board. Having said that, for me the best information by far is the manufacturers installation instructions on each and every component..inverter, transfer switch, solar panel wiring, etc etc. Of course, one does not (probably) have all those things when initial wiring is considered. That is where GM's book is very valuable. Follow his lead and you will most probably have "done it right"...up to adding any given component, albeit, taking those possible additions into consideration prior to beginning your "big" conversion project. FWIW...and best wishes. RCB | ||
| Ian Giffin (Admin)
Board Administrator Username: Admin Post Number: 1198 Registered: 7-1997 Posted From: 24.239.13.27  Rating: N/A |
Folks, All of the Myers books and notes are described online at this site and can be acquired through the WoBN's Classifieds on BNO section. Ian www.busnut.com | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 840 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.200.140 Rating: N/A |
RC, I'm not sure what you said but I think we are in agreement! Sean, Interestingly enough I wasn't even thinking of you when I wrote my last post!! | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 558 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.210.37.170 Rating: N/A |
Gus/// ....tell me what is missing and I'll 'splain it best I can. RCB | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 841 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.200.35 Rating: N/A |
" methinks that "beauty"...is in the eye of the beholder". I guess I'm a bit slow but I flat don't understand this as it relates to my post!! ".....educated "opinion", perhaps from "hard knocks". I assume that "hard knocks" as used here means experience. Opinion based on experience, to me, is experience. Opinion based on no experience is opinion only. My main point here was that sometimes when I ask on the board if anyone has done such and such I get a barrage of opinions from posters who have no experience in the question matter at all. I usually expressly ask that posters not do this but that usually has no effect. Opinion is fine when asked for but otherwise it is very frustrating when trying to solve a problem. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 559 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.210.37.170 Rating: N/A |
Gus...........Granted....all of the above!. My point was that one gets (takes) out of any piece of information what one wants to take. Some seem to want to "make something" of what was said....others take it as presented, others take a positive approach and add or subtract as they see fit. That is certainly not peculiar to this forum. Hard knocks, to me is experience...in my case over a long lifetime ( Christ died at age 33...I have doubled that and then some). ...let's call it wisdom gained from life's experiences...better? ; some things learned routinely in the course of a day or years...some learned the "hard way". The experience factor is a matter of one's perspective, I suppose. I personally know a whole bunch of folks who are self proclaimed "experts" in this that or the other. Turns out, some are....some definitely are not. Must be the same with you. Guess the bottom line is that many (some)express their "opinion" is based on their experience, which is,.... etc, etc, etc> I assure you, Gus...I know where you are coming from and no offense was (is) intended. I apologize if you took it that way. RCB | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 843 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.200.73 Rating: N/A |
RC, None taken or intended. If your are not a philosopher you missed your calling!! | ||
| Brian Elfert (Belfert)
Registered Member Username: Belfert Post Number: 78 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.72.107.232 Rating: N/A |
This thread is a mile long, but I have managed to run two 15K BTU air conditioners off the 30 amp service at my home. The temps were fairly moderate when I did this. I did have to turn off the battery charger on my inverter or the breaker tripped. I also was not running my fridge or anything else except maybe 24 volt lights. I do have the bus wired for 50 amp. I installed the 30 amp service at home back when I had a travel trailer. It would be a lot of work to upgrade to 50 amp service at home so I haven't bothered. | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 419 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.179.179 Rating: N/A |
OK Guys. another thought when using gens too small for what you need. I had 2 13,5's on an old school bus and tried to cycle them with a 4500, 55oo watt generator. Now they would run providing that they weren't cycling too close together. Someone mentioned what kind of oil did I use. 10w30. He drained all my oil out of my Generac and put in a different oil. He wouldn't let me see what it was at the time. After changing we fired it off,Oh it ran at 3600 rpm, and turned the ac's on. The front fired up and I walked to the back and fired it up, both were running at the same time on that generator. I was shocked. Then he told me what it was. Wanna KNOW? OK it was 10w30 AMZOIL. Since then I run synthetic in all gensets,cars and trucks. Also trannies,rears. Lawn Mowers,weed eaters. The only thing I question is my DETROIT's. All I know is that it works great. Runs cooler and quieter in all equipment. Cost per year is about the same as regular oil but I get much better mileage with syn. than regular oil. gomer | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 560 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.208.135.39 Rating: N/A |
Gomer...how old was your Gen when you did that?...have you had good experience using the Synthetic in older equipment, or are you referring to new stuff? I have contemplated using it in all my equipnent, but so fat just in the trucks, since each was new. I have several very old and high mileage things I would really like to try it in, but, alas...a bit "gunshy". Interesting info...thanx for sharing. RCB | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 370 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 72.12.39.78 Rating: N/A |
Chuck, I have been very interested in running synthetic oil in my (4-stroke) engine and I've been to the techical people at Shell (Rotella Syn) and Mobil ("Delvac" and "Diesel Truck") and they both swear that modern synthetics have additives to keep seals and gaskets pliable and no oil leaks will result from using it in an older engine. Everyone I've every spoken to who has tried it says that you might as well shoot your block with a .44. So, I'm "gunshy" too. | ||
| joe padberg (Joemc7ab)
Registered Member Username: Joemc7ab Post Number: 335 Registered: 6-2004 Posted From: 66.38.159.33 Rating: N/A |
Marvin I would not use anything but 40wt in a Detroit 2stroke. An aquantance used 0/50 synthetic in a 4106, and he went exactly one and a half blocks when things cratered. Joe. | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1517 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.69.143.119  Rating: N/A |
The issue with 2 strokes, as best as I can glean from years of reading and debate, is the lube in the crank. The oil takes a pounding in the bottom of the crank on every stroke, and the oil MUST be able to 1) stay in there, and 2) get back in there, to protect the metal. Multi-grade tests suggest it can't stay in there, allowing metal contact. Leaking and oil consumption, or the lack of, are just side issues, when choosing between multi grade and straight weight. Do what you want, it is, after all, your engine and your money, but remember, there's no giant engineering staff researching this anymore, there sure as shooting was one that recommended low ash 40 wt. FWIW, I'll be sticking with 40wt in the engine, and putting synthetic in the tranny and diff when the next time rolls around. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 561 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.209.227.92 Rating: N/A |
I pretty well decided years ago what BW and Joe have said...really didn't meant to leave the impression that I would use it in the coach (Cummins Pancake, 220 turbo). The rebuild only has about 77,000 on it but I just don't need "problems". Mostly curious about other stuff (51 Jeep, chain saws, 300,000 mile VW, tractor (New)lawn mower, etc, etc.. To read the marketing data published, one would think it is the only way to go... Sure... RCB | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 420 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.179.179 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for the response guys. The genset had several hundred hours on it and after the change had no problem with it, in fact the consumption of oil,small at that, went down due to less friction,etc. I went on the AMZOIL.com web and they have the specs,data for any and all types of equipment and the recommended lub for that. On a high milage DD I am staying with the straight 40, like cost effective measures. I had a 81-chevy 4-wheel drive that got 8-9 mpg. Would not pull a hill without changing to 3rd gear. At 50,000 I pulled the [305]engine and rebuilt it. the only thing changed was the cam and it was an rv cam for torque. After the engine was broke in [500 miles] I changed to Amzoil 10W30. My mileage increased immediatly to 18-20. I then changed tranny,rear,front and wheel grease totally to synthetic. after that I documented with AMZOIL,26 mpg. I then left the truck for my son and that is the end of the story. TRASHED with-in 6 months. I told him that walking was not crowded and left> LOL not a happy camper. I am not a rep nor associated with Amzoil at all. Maybe they will pay for this ad and I will split it with you all If I can see IAN jump again and light flash too.. God Is Good. Gomer | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1366 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9  Rating: N/A |
1981 Chevrolet 4wd that got 26 MPG? unless your calculator is broken or odometer is innacurate, no matter what kind of oils you used. Maybe on looong level road at 50 mph with big tailwind or a strict fuel economy run. 520 miles to 20 gal tank of fuel? | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 421 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.179.179 Rating: N/A |
Chessie: To give you an zample!! I had a 18 ft trailer,empty,drove in the hill of wv[beckley]went to Bristol Tn, picked up 90 sheets of ceiling tile[4x14 ft]and a few other things needed,most heavy 5-gal buckets left and drove right at 375 miles round trip and used about16.5 gal of fuel. I think that figures 22.727272, mpg. without the trailer on, I drove from Beckley wv to Ocala Fl and filled up at a town called Bryceville Fl and it was empty!! It holds about 20-22 gal. I thought that wern't tooo awful bad. what do u think bout that? LOL gomer Ps wish my coaches would be a little easer on fuel too. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1368 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9 Rating: N/A |
Get your speedometer corrected; somethings wrong. | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 422 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.179.179 Rating: N/A |
Now Chessie!! R U jealous?? Naw LOL BUT it was true gomer | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 79 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190 Rating: N/A |
being a chevy I would suspect the fuel gauge first... or aAAah I meant I had found special application with specific synthetics oil formulas in very harsh conditions like cold starting in "-40 Winterpeg " (big time shrinkage) weather on the prairies of Canada where 5w50 was necessary . Castrol 5W50 (lots of $)kept remarkable arctic flow properties very well. Not making any other claim here and it certainly was NOT in a Jimmy 2 stroke engine. One thing I noticed with a different brand in a engine that had a crack in the head, the synthetic did not mix into the usual "milkshake" when it contaminated the crankcase oil, which does not mean less bearing damage or more as that is not what I am suggesting! Not all synthetic lubricants are the same so don't expect brand x to have the same special properties as brand y, if you have a special applications that may warrant the extra price. Some have a much longer "shelf life" while sitting in the crankcase as they resit oxidation processes; this does not mean extend hours of operation, as that is not "sitting in the crankcase" ! | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 373 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 4.88.106.221 Rating: N/A |
This isn't thread drift; this is a thread that has all sail hung out and is heading for the horizon at about 16 knots!!!! (Message edited by oonrahnjay on March 21, 2009) | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 842 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.93.212 Rating: N/A |
No.... He's just pointing out that air conditioning isn't needed right now in that part of Canada! (It doesn't matter if you put two or more air conditioners on the roof, because it's really, really code up there, and it doesn't make an amp of difference) We've just gone full-circle, Bruce! (wheeee) | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 80 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190 Rating: N/A |
the last vehicle in the convoy of speeders is always the one that gets pulled over for the ticket for being the last one to follow the leader...............................................guilty as charged,,,,,,,,, but how else is the thread going to hit the 100 comments per thread count, even if a few stitches are out of weave? | ||
| K.J. Franklin (Slow_rider)
Registered Member Username: Slow_rider Post Number: 31 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 76.114.242.225 Rating: N/A |
Slow Rider sets, pops the ball up just above the net. Who is going to spike it | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 991 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.54.29.215  Rating: N/A |
I don't really have anything to add to this thread, but this does make 100 post AND I have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express. Jack | ||
| PA Doug (Padoug)
Registered Member Username: Padoug Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 76.120.147.169 Rating: N/A |
Jack, You have a bus. You are not supposed to stay at the Holiday In Express. Or are you "In" an a former "Express" Service Coach on "Holiday"? Now it's 101! :-) Okay now. Can someone start a threat about Insulation, R-Values, room, and AC/BTU. Expiring minds want to know..or do we keep it on topic to say..125?? | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 81 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190 Rating: N/A |
I have also stay in those holiday inn parking lots, some even have plug-ins so you don't have to run your generator while camping in them & lots of trees to camp under ! Not sure about room service to the bus though; ...perhaps some else has also parked at a holiday inn ? | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1378 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9 Rating: N/A |
You can get room service there for your coach; BIG TIPS!! They don't carry Amsoil though. |
