| Author | Message | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 723 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.32 Rating: N/A |
Am attempting to work out the details of an engine swop . The tranny I purchased has the computer set to operate a L-10 the engine I'm having installed is a DD series 50 "tweaked" to 320hp and about 1100lbs torque. The tranny dealer sez to reprogram the tranny to a DD 6-92 spec for good shifting . I would think the L-10 is more like the Ser 50 in terms of where and when the torque rise and peak is.The reprogram might be a waste of time as these 4 strokes are most efficient at low RPM grinding out huge torque , rather than screamers as the 2 strokes are .The fuel mileage from screaming the 50 will be much poorer than asking it to grunt. Can anyone yank from their files , or direct me to the HP/torque graphs for these 3 engines? Only a look see will tell. TIA!! FF | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 676 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.32.92.133 Rating: N/A |
FF,http://detroitdiesel.com/public/specs/35a440. pdf for the 50 Series www.powerlinecomponents.com for 6v92 check under literature. for the L10 your own your own good luck (Message edited by luvrbus on March 27, 2009) (Message edited by luvrbus on March 27, 2009) | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 677 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.32.92.133 Rating: N/A |
FF,for some reason I cannot put www. in front of detroitdiesel to make the link work in the above so here goes http://www.detroitdiesel.com/public/specs/35a440.pdf I give up but it is there (Message edited by luvrbus on March 27, 2009) | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 724 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.32 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for the response I havent been able to find a graph , but will keep trying. The reason I want a look is the specs seem so similar. L 10 Bus configuration 750T @1300 250 HP @ 2200 900T @1300 280 HP @ 2200 1100T @ 1300 330 HP @ 2200 DD 50 890T @ 1200 250-277 HP @ 2100 1050 @ 1200 315-320 HP @ 2100 6V92 816T @ 1300 253-277 HP @ 1800-2100 1020T @ 1300 330-350 HP @ 1800-2100 Looks pretty close to me , FF | ||
| Jack Campbell (Blue_goose)
Registered Member Username: Blue_goose Post Number: 125 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 71.100.201.35  Rating: N/A |
Fred you could give Ted Keating a call at TKT Sales.I got lots of info from him and he seams to know more about allison transmissions than most that I have talked with. 1-800-997-4TKT Jack | ||
| Tom Christman (Tchristman)
Registered Member Username: Tchristman Post Number: 73 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.218.33.156 Rating: N/A |
Whether it be an L10, M11, ISM, NTC, N14, ISX, Series 50 or 60, C10, C11, C12, C13, C15, 3406-these all run at 2000rpm to 2200rpm. With only 4-6 speeds in the Allison (depending on the model) you need the transmission to use all of the rpm to prevent lugging of the engine. Allisons will shift at full rpm under full throttle, and then modulate the shifts under partial throttle. As an example- on my 8V-71 (now turboed) with V730- it shifts at just under 2,000rpm at full throttle, and with light throttle, I can get shifts that happen at 1500rpm, with the rpm going down to nearly 1,000rpm-and that's for a 2 stroke! Good Luck, TomC | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1381 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9  Rating: N/A |
Fred, forget about worrying about fuel efficiency concerns in the lower gear ranges. Your main concern should be cruising speed rpms, which the coach will be doing 96% of the time, unless it is going to be a tour bus or a pikes peak competitor. If you want it all, install a manual transmission like you tout having in your 4106. | ||
| Ed Roelle (Ed_roelle)
Registered Member Username: Ed_roelle Post Number: 75 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 68.42.212.63 Rating: N/A |
Fred, Here is a link to the Series 50 curves. http://www.detroitdiesel.com/public/specs/3SA432.pdf (note .pdf file) I would agree with you that the torques curve of the L-10 is likely closer to the 4 cycle Series 50, than a 2 cycle 6V-92. The Series 50/60 like lugging. The graphs will show torque decreases as RPMs increase. The Detroit Diesel Board probably can give you a 6V-92 curve. Ed Roelle | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 678 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.32.92.133 Rating: N/A |
FF, the curve for 6v92 is on the powerline site look under engine brochures thanks for the link Ed I see I was using a 5 instead of S I'll wear my glasses next time | ||
| Pete/RTS Daytona (Pete_rtsdaytona)
Registered Member Username: Pete_rtsdaytona Post Number: 541 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 97.104.19.180 Rating: N/A |
Fred I have ACTUAL files (not url's) for 6v92 w/80-injectors 6v92T w/90-inj 6v92ta w/7g65 inj 6v92ta w/9b90 inj 6v92tta w/9b90 inj (fuel squeezer) plus varies hp Series 50 (250 275 300 315 350) MSHA / EPA / EURO models But here's the kicker YOU NEED TO SEND ME YOUR EMAIL ADDY - so that I can send then That's YOUR addy - not someone elses or the temp one send it to ...hawk_ii_mail @ yahoo.com.. Balls in your court well FRED - what are you going to do ??? oh yea - also have ALL the curves for the Cummins L10 (It's NG - but it's suppose to be -- SIMILAR- to the diesel fuel version) 315/bhp-932/ftlb Pete RTS/Daytona (Message edited by pete rts/daytona on March 27, 2009) | ||
| Luvrbus (Luvrbus)
Registered Member Username: Luvrbus Post Number: 679 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 74.32.92.133 Rating: N/A |
Pete, the L10 NG have a higher torque curve than the diesel version fwiw | ||
| Pete/RTS Daytona (Pete_rtsdaytona)
Registered Member Username: Pete_rtsdaytona Post Number: 542 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 97.104.19.180 Rating: N/A |
ok ok luvbus - similar - are you happy now ?? (Message edited by pete rts/daytona on March 27, 2009) | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 85 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190  Rating: N/A |
Not trying to be insightful here, more looking for closure on transplant story with a D5O run through a B500 Allison, transplanted into a 102C (originally with a Jimmy) that was parked next to me on Victoria Island. The O/Operator told me he had snapped axles several times (likely due to the higher torque per cylinder's power stroke of the 4 cylinder/4 stroke engine. The remedy was to install a torus damper at the drive shaft and the fault appeared rectified (over 100k since this patch-up, when we last spoke). Are there any other "soup can transplants" that had this experience? He bought it with the transplant done, and had someone else do the fix, so it was difficult to get detailed facts from him. Ever time I am get wind of your recent creation F.F. I feel it prudent to pass his experience on for your consideration; complications have a way of damping our creative efforts and the "proto-re-typing" can eat up a lot of bucks better spent on exploring. I would feel like a "negligent bus nut" if you ended up with his experience and I finally remembered to share it with you many axles and tows to late. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 725 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.32 Rating: N/A |
Thanks for all the input , I will be contacting Pete today. The tranny being installed is unfortunatly not an Allison , I had one that was pure mechanical old HT70 and would have worked great , BUT it was so long the coach would need a foot of bump in the rear. Handling belting to the radiator fan would have been interesting , hydraulic maybe. The tranny I'm using is a ZF 600 series with 5 speeds , top being an OD of .85 or so. Its nice and short , really Heavy Duty for a little ser50 and 35 ft antique VL 100 as it was from a 40ft 40,000+lb tank with a huge Mann, and rebuilt. I picked up a donor ZF 590 that provided the electric 5 speed control box , the torque converter with the proper ring to operate the starter and a heat exchanger to cool the tranny , built on. This is nice and short so the drive shaft wont have to be 6 inches long . All I need (probably new) is the flex plate to hook the DD to the ZF. I get the OTR truckers mags , and these new 4 strokes are driven WAY differently from the 71 scream it technique. They don't "drive it as if you hate it" as was needed to run a load with a 2 stroke. Instead they use their 18 speeds to operate as close to the torque peak as can be ,shifting at 1400, or 1500 to get back to 1200 where the grunt AND economy is. The question of how to match the tranny brain box to the engine to attempt this with only 5 speeds is the question. I have seen lots of broken axles , after transplants , usually someone bugging out of a covered toll plaza after a light rain. The wheels spin on the oil slick , TILL they contact the concrete outside that has traction. Would be a real pain to pop an axle , but the coach was factory geared for a 6-71 so the 3.73 (or so) rear is not ideal anyway. A 3.33 (perhaps in a 2 speed for those Canadian trips we love) would be next "investment". With the complete coach weighing only 28,000 lbs I hope not to find out weather the stock axle is too wimpy. FF | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 87 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190 Rating: N/A |
spinning axles could have been a issue with his soup can transplant as his drivers were Victoria,BC based and the don't often deal with wet snow conditions out there , just buckets of rain. I do remember his main route for this coach was up to the north end of the Island to haul ski charters and through snow. Snow being taken for granted in my driving experience I did not even pop that factor into the interrogation process with Brett. Look forward to your sharing of your results F.F., objectively as always. | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 88 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190 Rating: N/A |
or I should have said coffee can engines (as in pistons the size of a coffee can)... haven't had my tea yet (just a unexpected chase after the 2 bad & escaping girl dogs) and last night was late ! | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 726 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.15 Rating: N/A |
Pete, hawk_ii_mail @ yahoo.com.. Took out the dashes and spaces and the server sez you don't have a yahoo account. Try me, food-wagon @ juno. com Just exchange the dash for an underline (top of same key)and remove the spaces. Thanks, FF | ||
| Pete/RTS Daytona (Pete_rtsdaytona)
Registered Member Username: Pete_rtsdaytona Post Number: 543 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 97.104.19.180 Rating: N/A |
so who told you to take out the dashes - actually they are "underscores" just click on my busnut id and go to my profile | ||
| Pete/RTS Daytona (Pete_rtsdaytona)
Registered Member Username: Pete_rtsdaytona Post Number: 544 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 97.104.19.180 Rating: N/A |
so who told you to take out the dashes actually they are "underscores" just click on my busnut id and go to my profile | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 727 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.37 Rating: N/A |
I was able to get DA Book , the maint and rebuild book for the ZF , but its pure tech no Concept info. If anyone has a source for a drivers manual or operators manual ,,,,where did it come from?? FF | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 731 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.42 Rating: N/A |
Contemplating broken axles , I wonder if the combination of Jakes and retarder (combined more HP than the engine) could cause axle failure? I'm guessing not as the loads are taken more slowly than a spinning wheel suddenly getting traction. Anyone ever break an axle on slowdown? FF |