| Author | Message | ||
| macgyver (91flyer)
Registered Member Username: 91flyer Post Number: 317 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 166.192.43.217  Rating: N/A |
Ok... Here's what's going on... I'm just west of Selma, AL on US80 west at the intersection of Landline rd at 'Ken's General Store'... I stopped to change clothes and grab a bite to eat. I did NOT shut down. I rolled her to a stop and put on the park brakes and she immediately died. She won't start again. I've gone back to hit the rear run switch and I can hear the selenoid click, but no movement... Not even a little. Placing my hand on the engine and hitting the start... Not even the vibration of the starter engaging. I did find a couple of unrelated electrical connections that were bad and repaired them... I've verified that I have voltage at the alternator when run mode is engaged. I've verified the emergency stop was not triggered. The only way I can gain access to the starter is to remove the right hand exhaust manifold that I can see. I'm stuck with no clue what to check next without removing the starter. I REALLY do NOT want to do that on the side of the damn road. Anyone have any ideas? Please call me. 318 840 9254 Thanks... -Mac | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 126 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190  Rating: N/A |
did you stop charging and run the battery down ? and is the battery giving enough current at the starter when engaged, at least check with a volt meter at the starter while "cranking". perhaps you should cook supper while stopped, perhaps after you get it going, no better way to break down than with your fridge & bed right behind you. | ||
| Dan West (Utahclaimjumper)
Registered Member Username: Utahclaimjumper Post Number: 162 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 208.66.38.60 Rating: N/A |
I'd bet your batteries are boiled dry, and as long as the engine was running at a good clip the alternator was providing power, at idle not enough power to prevent shut-down.>>>Dan | ||
| David Evans (Dmd)
Registered Member Username: Dmd Post Number: 304 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 173.77.212.104  Rating: N/A |
If your off the road, get a good nights sleep. Things always look better in the morning and its alot safer working in the daylight. | ||
| Gary Pasternak (Cessna5354)
Registered Member Username: Cessna5354 Post Number: 65 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 72.75.143.101 Rating: N/A |
I am looking, if correctly, at (2) different distinct problems. One is the inability to restart. Could be battery. Check voltage at starter if you can. I am puzzled as to why the engine died ? If it is a MUI non computer engine, I am thinking fuel flow, or filters blinded over. I know this doesnot solve the problem, but I believe there maybe two problems. I am not a GMC guy, but my two cents. Good Luck to you. Gary Pasternak | ||
| J.L.Vickers (Roadrunnertex)
Registered Member Username: Roadrunnertex Post Number: 50 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 69.34.188.48 Rating: |
You can get the starter to engage and crank the engine buy removing the large metal plug with the cross on the top on the end of the starter. After you remove the metal plug use a broom stick and push to engage the solenoid and starter drive. Also remove the two screws that hold the engine stop actuator to prevent it from shutting the engine down so you can get it home.Until repairs can be made. | ||
| Patrick levenson (Zubzub)
Registered Member Username: Zubzub Post Number: 78 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 64.229.53.47  Rating: N/A |
seems lie you have 2 problems. The shut down and the starter. Re the starter the suggestion with the broom stick sounds about right. It's amazing how easy it is to have electrical problems to a starter and then a good shove makes it go. Before you start the engine, check all you fluids and remember that depending on the bus there is more than one way to "emergency shut down" there is the simple flap triggered from the dash and then there are all the fail safe stuff that shuts down when there is low oil/high temp etc... I agree with the other guys if you can sleep there for the night in the morning it may all become clear. oh yeah, the more info you post the more help (and useless suggestions) you will get. | ||
| Glenn Williams (Glenn)
Registered Member Username: Glenn Post Number: 195 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 216.163.56.194  Rating: N/A |
Were you in gear when it died? Thinking of the clutch problems you were having, could the stop have stalled the engine and now the starter will not turn over the engaged engine and driveline? To the more expierenced than me (almost everyone!) Could this thing take off down the road if it's stuck in gear while starting from the rear? Glenn | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1545 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.68.135.100  Rating: N/A |
Auto or manual transmission? Manual, try pull starting it. Any pick-up truck or SUV will do. Use a rope, gently ease into it, turn on the ignition before, or you'll forget, get it rolling to 10-15 mph and let out the clutch in 3rd. It starts, push the clutch back in, and coast/stop as you have agreed with your puller. If it doesn't start, get pulled back to a good place. Shouldn't be too hard to find someone just dying to pull something with their pick-up. Make it clear, absolutely no jerking or otherwise ripping parts off. No sudden applications of brakes on either part, or again, parts will be flying. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1397 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9  Rating: |
The problem with trying to roll start will require releasing the DD3's. Probably you have little or no air now. Sounds like a dead battery problem most likely. Somewhat less likely is a problem with the starter, since it had no problems before this, even more less likely than 1 and 2 would be a fuel problem. I'm not necessarily ruling any of them our BUT, get the batteries checked for charge/ condition. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 793 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
Just got off the phone with Mac, and here goes. Still dead, trans in neutral when died, so not trans. Would start with a stuck trans if the clutch were down anyhow... Headlights, brake lights, turn signals work properly, 23.8 V w/lights on, so not dead batts. Start RELAY clicks on rear or front start, (I heard it on the phone,) no SOLENOID. JLV, won't go with the broomstick either, and it sounds like he did it right, (felt contact, and shoved it in to a stop against spring pressure.) I already told him to disable the shutdown cyl, but he has no air compressor, so no pull start. He can't get to the rear electrical box due to a PO modification, so is going to wait til daylight to look further. Sounds like an open to me, he's going to do more looking with his meter. George | ||
| Kasse Weikel (More_s_than_as)
Registered Member Username: More_s_than_as Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 71.84.122.200 Rating: N/A |
i know this doesnt help cause it would probably take time to get the part, but if the relay is clicking than that could be the problem if so its a simple matter but not in the situation you face. i only say this because i learned alot about relays from working on an old volkswagen car. first noticed when the blinker lights went out but had power and bulbs were fine, but the relay for them started clicking loud enough to hear it under the hood i dont know much about electrical circuits, but relays shouldnt click that loud (from what i have noticed with cars, not busses). i wish i wasnt across the country macgyver, i want you to get home asap cause im staring down the rear main on my bus and id love some of that literature to accompany me. whatever happens, just keep an eye on the future and never give into despair heres the edit : a bad relay should normaly have nothing to do with the engine shutting down. if it were a car i would try manually turning the harmonic balancer/fly wheel to make sure the engine isnt ceased, but you would know if you overheated it or not. im trying to picture all the smaller engines ive worked on, and i cant see how the two problems could be related, but maybe they are. i dont know if you can spin the main crank manually on a big engine though... (Message edited by More_s_than_as on April 14, 2009) | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 1010 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.3.157.139  Rating: N/A |
I talked to Mac last night and he said he was able to rotate the engine using a socket and bar on the camshaft nut. I do not know what caused the engine to stop, but suspect a wiring problem. His batteries are up (per volt meter). Because of PO interior design (covered all access panels), starter is almost impossible to get at for further testing. Hopefully a nights rest and daylight to work in will help resolve the problem. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 612 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.210.21.18 Rating: N/A |
Fuel????......... or Jake Brake switch???? RCB | ||
| Jim Gibson (River_rat)
Registered Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 10 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 75.95.96.192 Rating: N/A |
I just had a no start where the starter relay was clicking, but not starter. Seemed like a dead battery, but it turned out the BIG battery cable to the power side of the starter was bad/loose. Wouldn't cause yours to it to stop, I don't think, but would allow everything else to work, but not turn the starter motor. Just a thougt. Jim | ||
| Kasse Weikel (More_s_than_as)
Registered Member Username: More_s_than_as Post Number: 13 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 71.84.122.200 Rating: N/A |
it cant be low fuel cause then the starter would still turn over the engine, just wouldnt start. the fact that the starter isnt turning is intresting especially since he manually pushed the (we always called it a spindle head with cars, im so bus noob) bit that pops out and turns the fly wheel, into place. do these big beasts have fly wheels, they have to right? <--noob alert The PO stuff really is inconvenient cause i would want to go with jim and suggest chasing down all the wires, but i understand time is an issue as well. if anything, i certainly have learned from all this that i need to carry a good multi-meter in the bus' tool kit! I didnt read that Ken was chasing you out of his general store parking lot, so if you have time maybe jim has the right idea, could be bad wire, i know thats not what you want to hear though...good luck matey...in the end it always works out! heres the edit: im still stumped on the shutdown, especially if engine still turns (i see so you use a socket on the cam nut eh?!?). i have a feeling that its something really simple because i didnt read anything about jerking when coming to a stop or any other loud noises besides the relay. is it possible for loose wiring to cause your alternator not push enough charge under a certain RPM??? (Message edited by More_s_than_as on April 14, 2009) | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1400 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9 Rating: N/A |
Is there a way to rap the solenoid or starter with a hammer in case it has a dirty/ corroded connection? | ||
| Kasse Weikel (More_s_than_as)
Registered Member Username: More_s_than_as Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 71.84.122.200 Rating: N/A |
I can see how hitting it with a hammer might nock corrosion loose, but that wont tighten the connection. im a noob with the terminology, but the solenoid is the bit that pops out from the starter and engages the flywheel right? most people take hammers to the starter when the solenoid is stuck. however Macgyver manually engaged it with a broom stick, so its not stuck. i recommend hitting it with a hammer though just to releave some anger and anxiety ;-p you honestly never know though, might work after that if you did, only takes a few seconds to try!!! heres the edit: oh duh! the solenoid is the little electrical unit sitting on the starter!! exactly what does the solenoid and relay do? What do guys call the bit that pops out and engages the flywheel? (ITS CALLED A BENDIX!! DALLAS YOUR THE MAN!!!!!) (Message edited by More_s_than_as on April 14, 2009) (Message edited by More_s_than_as on April 14, 2009) | ||
| Len Silva (Lsilva)
Registered Member Username: Lsilva Post Number: 220 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 24.164.20.23  Rating: N/A |
Even if you can't get to the starter to tighten the connections, try just moving the cable a bit however you can. Might be enough to get it started. Can't explain the shut down but if the starter doesn't engage with the broom stick trick, it's either bad or not getting power. My diesel truck has done that very thing. Just moving the battery cable at the starter got me going until I could fix it. | ||
| don goldsmith (Bottomacher)
Registered Member Username: Bottomacher Post Number: 248 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 72.15.86.59 Rating: N/A |
It is possible to tighten the starter terminal nuts with a stubby wrench (3/4" I think) WITH the access panel removed. If it is covered over, you have to do it the hard way, in the axle tunnel. Scary place. BE SURE TO DISCONNECT THE BATTERY GROUND FIRST if you're going to put a wrench on the starter terminal. But I don't believe loose terminals would kill the engine. It sounds like a shutdown (oil, water)alarm problem to me. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 614 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.210.21.18 Rating: N/A |
me, too,Don........Jake Brake did that to me a number of times....B4 I realized what I had (not)done...(turn it off)  ....lots in the archives on this subject. FWIW RCB | ||
| Dallas (Dal300)
Registered Member Username: Dal300 Post Number: 196 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 209.183.51.45 Rating: N/A |
MAc, Remove the positive cable from the battery. Find a way into accessing the starter. remove the two big cables and an little cables on the solenoid. take the screws out of the solenoid cover where the cables were, also remove the cover plate. With a 7/16" socket, remove the bolt holding the disc that is inside the solenoid. Turn it over. Reinstall the disc, reinstall the cover plate, reinstall the cables, reinstall the battery cable. It hopefully will start. If not, get a set of jumper cables and put both of them on the battery ground and then ground directly to the starter. The reasoning is that if the ground connection to the starter is bad, the terminals inside the solenoid will do a lot of arcing. if there is enough arc burns on the disc, the two cables will no longer make contact. the nice thing about these Bendix solenoids is that they are rebuildable, and you can always sand the contacts to get one more start. this is also why the starter didn't turn when the bendix was pushed with a broomstick.... there isn't enough contact between the two cables, and, if the engine/chassis ground is bad, the engine will go into shutdown mode because the skinner valve to the stop cylinder is no longer making a complete circuit. At least I hope that's all it is. Dallas | ||
| macgyver (91flyer)
Registered Member Username: 91flyer Post Number: 318 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 74.193.225.134 Rating: N/A |
Whew. Lots of posts that I couldn't get to while on the road... First... I'm home. Second, I want to thank Jack Conrad, George Todd and J.L. Vickers (in no particular order!) for their calls and insights and for taking the time to try to help me before I beat my head to a bloody pulp on the side of my bus.... If I missed someone that called me, please kick me and remind me that you called! Third... I want to say that yes, the coach DOES, in fact, seem to drive MUCH better if you slam your finger in the door as I did... I know the advice was meant as a figure of speech, but my ol' gal seems to have taken it literally and did, in fact, slam the door on my finger... It turned a VERY attractive shade of purple and black for a couple of days. ;) Now that the comic relief is out of the way... I'll answer the questions posed, and what happened to finally get her running and tooling down the road again. I'm going to be a bit brief because, quite fankly, I'm exhausted. --- "Stop charging and ran the batteries down" - Nope. I keep a close eye on the instruments (the ones that work, that is) -- the Ampmeter works just fine and indicated a charge of around 27 to 28 volts or so with the engine running. Also verified with my trusty voltmeter before I began the trip. "Batteries boiled dry" - No, batteries are perfectly fine... In fact, they had just been replaced by the fellow I bought the coach from. They're quite strong and hold the charge very well. "Check voltage at the starter" - Since this coach has the engine in sideways set at a 45 degree angle... I can't even get to the starter without removing the right hand exhaust manifold... This made troubleshooting a little difficult. (Will explain further below) "Was I in gear when it died?" - Nope. Neutral, dead stop -- It was at the very moment I engaged the parking brakes that she died. Engine did not stall... I know, it's weird. "Auto or manual tranny?" - Manual, spicer 4sp. "Rolling start - push/pull - Air pressure" - Yeah, I had no air pressure left. She has a leak in the air system I need to fix (probably several)... The compressor keeps up with it just fine, but she bleeds dry within 10 minutes. Unfortunately, she quit practically in the middle of nowhere, but fortunately she did quit at a gas station! (At least something "lucky" out of it? ) "Fuel problem" - No... She wouldn't crank _at all_. Nothing. Starter was not popping off at all. "Overheated" - Nope. She runs a solid 170 deg F on a flat run.. She'll get to 180 deg F on an uphill grade, but didn't go beyond that and she cools back to 170 quickly once I'm up the grade. Also, when this happened, there was *NO* smoke before I stopped. No white, no grey, no blue, no black... Nothing. Just nice pure clean exhaust. This ol' gal only smokes (unburned fuel) when she's first started and clears up within a couple of minutes of air pressure building up enough to kick fast idle in. She's yet to spit even a PUFF of black. (yay!) "Jake brake switch" - Nope, she doesn't have Jakes, unfortunately... "Smack the starter" - Yup. Did that. I made sure to bring my trusty short handled 2lb sledge with me... (Previous experiences with starters, don't ask. ;) ) -- Made no difference. Starter simply isn't engaging. ----------------- Whew. Ok. With those out of the way, I'll bring ya'll up to speed on what the current status is... I tore apart the rear end of the bus and removed the woodwork the PO had covered the access hatch with... I could see the starter, I could reach it and the wires... But, because the exhaust manifold was in the way, I couldn't SEE the wires... I could only feel them. They did not wiggle, they are not loose. I tried J.L.'s suggestion of removing the plug off the end of the starter and hittin' it with a broom handle... Nothing. Not even a spark. Was a bit of a bummer 'cuz I thought for sure that'd do the trick. Unfortunately, it didn't. Ok... So... Now what? I located the engine compartment electronics box (it was a little difficult to actually figure out what it was, since it was and still is covered in about 1/4" of muck, gunk, grease and oil... But, I finally got the cover off it. Once I got that off... I hit the rear run switch (didn't even know it HAD one until I started poking my head up inside the ass end of the engine bay!)... when I did, the big relay made a nice THUNK sound... For those of you who don't have experience with these relays... They aren't your typical Radio Shack or Automotive relay... These suckers are BIG in comparison. Take a beer can, cut it in half.. That's about the size of one of these suckers. Ok... So... Hit the switch, THUNK... Nothing from the starter... Hmm... Voltmeter... I was fairly sure of which relay it was that was engaging... so I started testing leads... All dead. No power to ANY of them... Humph. Fine... Hit the switch, check leads again... Cool. 24v to one of the leads... So, of the other three, one was ground, and the other two were supposed to be for engaging the starter selenoid.... But there should be ONE that's always hot as long as the key/run switch are on... Right? Ok. So... since I knew which one was ground, which one was the switched hot... I *should* only have to apply power to one of the other two remaining leads when I hit the switch and she SHOULD fire up... Right? Right! That's exactly what happened. She popped off like nothing was wrong... She aired up... Fast idle engaged... Skinner valve not shutting her down... Why she died when I came to a stop and popped the parking brakes? No idea... But... Whatever circuit died also took out my reverse selenoid. I'm going to start tracing wires down tomorrow and see what I can find... But, that's where it sits right now.... I'm able to get her started. I can move her. I can't use the reverse switch right now, so forward only without a helper, which is a real drag... BUT... I know it's electrical... Electrical I can handle. Had it been a frozen engine... I'd have been screwed completely, 'cuz I'd have had to leave her on the side of the road and just come home... Happily... That didn't happen! I'm now home... But before I sign off... I'm going to tell you what happened when I pulled up to the house. I rounded the corner to our street and there's this little spot of grass that I tend to park my buses on when I bring them home... It's a temporary place, just to get them out of the street.... Well... It's been raining a LOT more than usual... And, naturally, I didn't notice that the ground was still wet... It cost me $125 to get back out of the grass. She sank on the right side up to the baggage doors... Sad sight, but... She's out and now parked quite nicely in the driveway, instead of in the mud! If anyone has any ideas on exactly where to start looking on the 4905 as to where the reverse circuit and start circuit possibly come together... I'm all ears... I'd really like to be able to go in reverse again, not to mention START her with a switch instead of a jumper wire!!!! :D Ok. I'm out. I'm exhausted after the ordeals of last night and today. Cheers! -Mac --- P.S. -- Kasse... Yes, I learned years ago... A *GOOD* voltmeter is _essential_ equipment... Not just for buses though. ;) I tend to carry a *CHEAP* analog ($15 special at Autozone/Pep Girls/Radio Shack, etc)... As well as a GOOD digital one. I'll use the cheap one when I just need a continuity test or a quick voltage check... The digital gets the more delicate precision work. If I break the cheapie... it's a throwaway. I take MUCH better care of my digital. | ||
| Glenn Williams (Glenn)
Registered Member Username: Glenn Post Number: 196 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 216.163.56.194 Rating: N/A |
Glad you made it home and even happier that it will be an electrical fix! They are maddening, but usually affordable! (unless you have a DDEC!) ;-) Glenn | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 863 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 98.70.64.189  Rating: N/A |
Hmm... Reverse, start, and..... you set the brake and it died... so that'd be something common to all circuits, but independent to the power side..(?) Like a ground connection? If you have a fast idle, that too would be part of that circuit, since applying the parking brakes would energize that. If that panel was as gummed up as you say it was, how's the ground bus bars inside that thing? Rusted? When I had the MC9, I used a tone generator and pickup to trace out wires. Home Depot and Lowes, etc, sell the things. It's worth the few bucks to own one. The one I have, is used to trace telephone lines, but it appears that the new ones can also handle 110 vac and all low DC circuits. Lotsa' luck! I hope you return to tell us the grand finale'. | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 1012 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.3.157.139 Rating: N/A |
Mac, Glad to hear you made it home. Just think, in the future, you will sitting around with other busnuts laughing about the time ya'll got stranded on the way home with your "new" bus. Jack | ||
| Patrick levenson (Zubzub)
Registered Member Username: Zubzub Post Number: 81 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 70.29.209.208 Rating: N/A |
Good work, sounds like you had some of the same problems I had on my first run. "cept I have an '04, and I can pull the starter or just use my hand to throw the solenoide. BTW by the time I got back I had an extension cord running from the cockpit to the rear electric bay: 1 wire starter 1 wire reverse 1 wire skinner | ||
| macgyver (91flyer)
Registered Member Username: 91flyer Post Number: 320 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 74.193.225.134 Rating: N/A |
John... After having time to rest and "sleep on it"... I don't think it's a common ground... Might be a ground on an upstream relay, but not to the circuits themselves... My reason for thinking this is... If it were a ground on the downstream side... It wouldn't crank nor would the reverse selenoid kick when power is applied directly to them... I'm starting to think my problem is either in the driver's kick panel... Or... They master key switch. I'll be tearing into that in the next couple of days. Jack! "Will be laughing"??? I already am! XD I'm just glad it wasn't the engine... Electrical problems are maddening, but a dead engine would have been a showstopper for me... Patrick... Interesting idea... I just might be forced to do the exact same thing temporarily to get things working... Thanks! -Mac | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 130 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.82 Rating: N/A |
...Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh; now I am beginning too understand why so many check first thing to see if the engine exploded or not... it's the "whew factor", once you know you don't need a engine redue, ever other possible problem seems small in comparison. IS THIS CORRECT??? I shall have to try this quick fix on myself next time the machines are calling for my love & money ! Twisted mine wants to know ,mine mind, my mind,oh never mind me. | ||
| macgyver (91flyer)
Registered Member Username: 91flyer Post Number: 321 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 74.193.225.134 Rating: N/A |
^.^ Yes, Clint... It's always the "whew" factor when the engine just stops for no apparent reason. Electrical can be fixed on the side of the road relatively easily... Mechanical failures aren't... Mechanical failures give you that "Oh SHIT" feeling that we all would prefer to avoid... I didn't panic when she stopped and didn't restart... It didn't SEEM like a mechanical failure, but I couldn't explain it either... With the help of some GREAT folks here, it was isolated to the circuits... Once I could get to the places I needed to get to... It was easy to diagnose that I had a dead positive circuit... But not so easy to figure out WHERE it's dead yet... Still working on that. I just printed out the schematics and will be going over them with my highlighters for points of interest to check. It's just a hunch, but I'm suspecting that SOMEHOW... one of the circuit breakers got tripped on the hot bar either in the driver's kick panel, or the engine bay panel... Just have to figure out where those are, what the circuit numbers are, what should be hot where, etc... It's just gunna take some time. I'll post my findings and what was necessary to fix it once I get it fixed and running again. Cheers! -Mac | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 864 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.79.224 Rating: N/A |
Re: "I'll post my findings and what was necessary to fix it once I get it fixed and running again. " To this thread, Please? It would be nice for the archives! Moocho Grassass. (Message edited by john_mc9 on April 15, 2009) | ||
| macgyver (91flyer)
Registered Member Username: 91flyer Post Number: 322 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 74.193.225.134 Rating: N/A |
John... Done. Ok guys... I found the cause and have "solved" it, albeit somewhat unconventionally. The problem ultimately turned out to be that the positive feed to the rear engine compartment failed somewhere between the front, and the rear... I verified that power was available to the relays up front in the driver's kick panel... But was not present on the same wire in the rear of the coach... This single wire fed the bus bar that powers the starter selenoid, reverse selenoid and some other stuff I didn't trace down... So... My somewhat unconventional fix, since I can't currently tear floorboards apart, nor get under the coach at the moment... I simply created a jumper wire that feeds from the battery terminal on top of the alternator directly to the bus bar BEFORE the circuit breakers... Doing this resulted in regaining my ability to start the coach, as well as REVERSE! It's not the most elegant solution... But right now, it's the only one I can go with until I can trace the actual wire out... And replace it. So... If your reverse goes out at the same time as your ability to start the coach... you've simply lost power to the bus bar in the engine compartment control box. Feed it power and she's happy again! ^.^ -Mac | ||
| macgyver (91flyer)
Registered Member Username: 91flyer Post Number: 323 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 74.193.225.134 Rating: N/A |
Oh yeah... As a side note... Since I have bypassed the normal relays and control systems... I will now need to hit the battery kill switch when I'm done driving to avoid draining the batteries I suppose. I'm not sure what, if any, draw there is on that bus bar ordinarily... I used a pretty stout wire to connect to the bus bar.... ^.^ -Mac | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 1013 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.3.157.139 Rating: |
Mac, Put a test light in series in the wire you added. If the bulb glows at all, there is a load that will drain batteries. If you look at the wiring scematics, you may find a spare wire already ran between the front and rear panel or a wire that was originally used for a now "not needed' circuit such as a lavatory or AC circuit. | ||
| Steven M. Toomey (Pabusnut)
Registered Member Username: Pabusnut Post Number: 9 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 71.207.107.232 Rating: N/A |
Mac I have a 4905 and had a similar problem, but fortunately mine hadn't yet left the driveway when it happened. I too thought it was the starter. I traced it back to a multi prong connector that plugs into the junction box-control box in the engine compartment. The wires on both sides of the connector were corroded through, so I just eliminated the connector. My guess is that to change out the engine, they would only have to unplug this one connector(electrically speaking!) Steve Toomey | ||
| macgyver (91flyer)
Registered Member Username: 91flyer Post Number: 324 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 74.193.225.134 Rating: N/A |
Jack... Thanks, I just hadn't thought much about it once I got her runnin' and backin' up again. XD Steve... I saw those connectors... I actually did yank 'em off and looked at the connections inside... They looked OK, but I'll look again when I get the chance. ^.^ -Mac (Message edited by 91flyer on April 15, 2009) | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 755 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.17 Rating: N/A |
Many times the ground is crap. The cure is to clean the cable and coach surface and throw out ALL steel or SS bolts, nuts or washers. COPPER nuts, bolts and washers will solve the problem long term. At your local electrical contractors store , not at Ace or HD. Sometimes a bit of "creative begging" from a neighbor that works for a power co.will get a fist full. FF | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 391 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 70.60.107.86  Rating: N/A |
FFred, thanks for the tip on copper bolts for the grounds -- do you have a suggestion for protecting them from corrosion? My experience has been that exposed copper is a fine conductor but suffers badly from corrosion. I'm reworking my electrical system now and this is a tip I'll be following. Thanks, BH NC USA | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1547 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.66.16.212 Rating: N/A |
The paste of your choice, dielectric on the positive cables, anti-seize of your choice on the grounds. Clean it up well with wire brush, sand paper, etc, and reassemble with liberal amounts of goop. And strongly consider a day of remove, clean and re-assemble all your big connections, perhaps annually until you get a sence of the deterioration in your driving and storage conditions, otherwise every two years. The machine stays reliable if you worry over it, otherwise you get to have the rush of the roadside repairs and the responses from the board to your queries to further fuel your adrenaline.... happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 621 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.211.2.73 Rating: N/A |
RCB | ||
| macgyver (91flyer)
Registered Member Username: 91flyer Post Number: 325 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 74.193.225.134 Rating: N/A |
Ok guys... I solved my 3rd gear problem today. ^.^ I videoed the linkages as I shifted through them (engine off...) After that, I removed the pin holding the 3rd/4th gear linkage to the transmission shift arm and again videoed the travel of the linkage without it connected. After that, I compared the two and found that the linkage travel did not match the arm travel... It was off by a good 1/4 of an inch or so... So, I loosened the linkage adjustment nut and screwed the coupler in by three turns and tested... She now shifts flawlessly between all gears. Still have to work on clutch adjustments... But it's not that imperitive at the moment... I've learned to drive her successfully without the clutch once I'm moving by feeling the purr of the gears as I shift... After 1000 miles or so... I seem to have gotten upshifting down pretty good. Downshifting was tricky because of 3rd gear not engaging properly, but that's fixed now... so now I can take her out and practice. Just thought I'd give ya'll an update on that particular issue. ^.^ Cheers! -Mac | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 1014 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.3.157.139 Rating: N/A |
Mac, Glad to hear that evetyting is "coming together". Jack | ||
| Kasse Weikel (More_s_than_as)
Registered Member Username: More_s_than_as Post Number: 29 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 24.176.245.108 Rating: N/A |
i know a little bit about bypassing electrical panels from installing "crap" aftermarket onto cars (winches, stereo systems, extra lights). you said that the wire thats dead came from the front panel...which would imply it was on a circuit breaker and you say yourself you bypassed it BEFORE the circuit breakers. This could be dangerous to your starter, reverse solenoid (no idea what that is) and all you other stuf you say fed off this wire but you didnt track down. Find out what amperage breaker was used in the box for this line, and simply install an INLINE circuit breaker (can find em at walmart even) on that bypass line or you risk hurting everything on the other side of it as mentioned above. Im positive that if there was a breaker on that line before, your going to want one on your bypass! especially since you havnt gotten into the box yet and that breaker could actually be your problem. in that case ignore all what im saying here and just replace that breaker up front. if its not the breaker, find out the amperage, and install one on your bypass AND LEAVE IT!!! SIMPLE LIKE THAT EH, and you now know where and what that lines all about. if you must be perfectly aesthetic - a good trick for re-running wires (learned this form installing audio) is to tie the end of the new wire to end of the old one. make sure the knot is small streamline, but most import make sure it will hold!! now simply pull the old wire out from the other end and the new one will follow behind it. sometimes this takes some "fishing" cause of the knot, and going back and forth a few times, but mostly it will work UNLESS ZIP TIES WERE USED TIGHTLY FOR WIRE REAMS. but this will be unlikely with an older bus. if the old wire breaks, oh well it didnt work before anyways, atleast you tried! | ||
| macgyver (91flyer)
Registered Member Username: 91flyer Post Number: 326 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 74.193.225.134 Rating: N/A |
Kasse, There are two sets of circuit breakers... One set in the driver's kick panel, the other in the engine bay control panel. I energized the BUS bar... _Before_ the circuit breakers... Essentially, leaving them functional... I didn't bypass them, only energized them. The wire in the driver's kick panel energizes... It just doesn't make it to the rear for some reason. I'm suspecting that vibration and age caused it to break from point A to point B... Everything up front is working the way it should, it just doesn't make it to the rear. I have the wiring schematics and traced it down up front, and in back... It just doesn't make it from front to back for some reason... But, as I said... I energized the bar that feeds the breakers in the rear... so all protections for them are still in place. As for pulling a new wire through... this might work in a car, but not in my bus... As the wire bundle going from front to rear is wrapped for weatherproofing... for me to do what you suggest, I'd have to unwrap the bundle first... more work, and time, than I'm willing to spend on this glitch... I'll eventually run a new wire to replace the bad one, but not right now... I have more important things to concentrate my efforts and time on for now. ;) As far as aesthetics... I simply plumbed the new wire in through one of the rubber grommets on the box. Looks like it's been there all along... Cheers! -Mac | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 428 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.197.237  Rating: N/A |
macgyver; I have a 74 gm 4905 and mine is a 40 ft and in the first compartment passenger side where the a/c coil,heater and controls[ junk room I call it] there are some breakers that you might look at a check. I also had some in with the batteries. I tool the batteries out and moved them to the back compartment since I done away with the OTR ac and heaters,They were bad so why keep them. I also found the main cable to the rear was bad because of low batteries over the years crystalized the insulation and was breaking off. when I moved the batties I put new cable in and had to pull the belly panels off to unsecure the old cable,and I am glad I did. IT doesn't take a lot to fire it up compared with the old set up and it is neater. Gomer | ||
| macgyver (91flyer)
Registered Member Username: 91flyer Post Number: 328 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 74.193.225.134 Rating: N/A |
Hmm... I've only cracked the A/C bays once since I got her... it's all in place, but the drive system in the engine bay is gone... compressors and everything are still there though... I'm going to remove it all and bypass the cabin heating system (main core is damaged and leaking) so that I at least have defrost back... I had to shut off the water valves to the front from the engine bay... lost 3 gallons of water overnight on the way back. heh... I'll look when I start ripping out the old A/C equipment. Thanks. -Mac | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1550 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.71.103.235 Rating: |
macgyver, you don't want to be letting the transission gears "purr". If you could see what gear surfaces and splined shafts inside your transmission are being grated together, and worn down at disproportionate speeds to make the pleasant buzz up front... You wouldn't want to be making them purr. You either get good right now and get no purr on the shift, or use the clutch. The power of the engine is on one side, and the weight of the bus via the wheels is on the other. The splines and the gears are no match for these combined forces if you put them up against each other. The clutch disengages half of that, so that when you attempt to mesh the gears while they are still spinning at different speeds, the grinding is against a gear set that is freely spinning, a force far less than above. Never mind the macho BS popular in the road transport business, you'll read about buses that won't stay in a gear without being held there, the ones with a twisted shaft, the guys looking for good used transmissions.... Who brags they wrecked a transmission trying to shift without the clutch? Get good with your timing using the clutch first, then, if you feel inspired, when every shift goes in like a knife through hot butter, try everything the same, except take out the clutch pedal double pump. And, you've only three shifts to make it to the big hole. It takes a whole lot more miles to get in a lot of shift practice in a 4 or 5 speed, versus someone who has learned on a 8/9/10/13/15/18 speed, as well as the 600 rpm drop between gears in a bus versus the 350-400 rpm drop in a truck, the timing is way different. FWIW, having seen the internals of blown transmissions, I CHOOSE to use the clutch for downshifts, and do some combination of clutch or not going up through the box, depending on what my auto-pilot does, or who is watching. In tractor trailer transmissions, if a range change is involved, I'll try to use the clutch for that shift, again, to relieve the shafts of the combined forces, and the timing is usually a little longer to come back across to start the pattern again. The manufacturer will not advocate clutchless shifting. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 627 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.211.2.73 Rating: N/A |
I started "learning" about clutch-less shifting by following advice of many informants....shift OUT of gear without clutch (minding the rpms, etc) into neutral, then use the clutch to get it INTO gear. After a while, most probably you'll "get" where it wants to go into gear (rpms) HOWMSOEVER>>> as BW states...downshift using clutch...period(for me). FWIW 2 U RCB | ||
| macgyver (91flyer)
Registered Member Username: 91flyer Post Number: 329 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 74.193.225.134 Rating: N/A |
Clutch linkage adjustments are on the menu... The clutch simply doesn't seem to work correctly right now, and since 3rd/4th linkages were all out of whack, I'm pretty sure that's what's wrong with the clutch, since it just doesn't seem to work the way it's been described that it should... I've gotten much better with shifting with minimal 'purring' by adjusting my timing between shifts... It's taking time, but I am getting better with it. Today went very well after my linkage adjustments... She dropped into third without any purr at all... I was very impressed... And, honestly, at first.... I thought I screwed something up because she shifted into third so effortlessly... But knew it was a perfect shift once I let out the clutch and she started pulling. ^.^ I am being careful... I just know that there's a lot left to do before she's back to what she should be. One step, and one adjustment, at a time.... -Mac |
