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Kenneth Hintermeister (Barbwire)
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Post Number: 17
Registered: 6-2005
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Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 5:41 pm:   

Need good advice, no BS. I now have 10 Rv/marine deep cycle series 27 that are 4 yrs old and are dying, Thinking of going to AGM's. Where can I get em at a reasonable price. I'm running a 4 cu ft freezer off my inverter w/ 12 amp draw 24-7. Have 2 120 watt solar panels and 400 watt windcharger, still don't keep up. 6-7 hrs gen time daily.
Tim Brandt (Timb)
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Post Number: 295
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Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 6:32 pm:   

Ken,

I used AGM's on a livaboard sailboat I had but they did require a different charging strategy than Gel or flooded as I recall. I ended up getting a part time job at west marine one enight a week unloading the truck so I could get the employee discount. Cost + 10% or roughly 40% off retail
Sean Welsh (Sean)
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Username: Sean

Post Number: 819
Registered: 1-2003
Posted From: 67.142.130.14


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Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 6:39 pm:   

"AGM's" is not enough information.

In order to shop for batteries, whether they are AGM or any other technology, you need to decide on a few things:
  • Physical dimensions. These can often be expressed as commonly-used BCI "group" sizes, such as "group 31," or also frequently-used but somewhat less standardized "industry" sizes such as 8D or L16.
  • Capacity in amp-hours, at whatever voltage you need.
  • Terminal configuration. Important if you don't want to change cabling.
  • Expected usage. Do you expect to deep-cycle these constantly, or mostly float them?

"RV/Marine" batteries, BTW, are about the worst choice for house batteries, second only to starting batteries. Their intended use as starting batteries means that their deep-cycle characteristics are a compromise. If you don't use these for starting, you should consider "house" type batteries (e.g. Lifeline), traction batteries, or AE batteries.

FWIW, here is a write-up I did on this topic on "the other board" (in this thread):

quote:

Folks,

Let's not confuse battery type with battery size (which is also different from capacity).

Asking "What's better, marine or 8D?" is like asking "What's better, 92 Octane or 15 gallons?"

I don't want to irritate anyone by repeating here information that is readily available either in the archives of this board or other bus boards (e.g. BNO), or at various other excellent resources such as:
http://www.phrannie.org/battery.html
http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm
and many others.

However, and with due deference to my good friend Jerry, I'd like to note that any type of battery, to include starting, deep-cycle, marine (which is a type of battery that, by definition, attempts to compromise between starting and deep-cycle performance), traction, float-service (emergency back-up batteries), AE (Alternative Energy), etc. can be made in any size, such as Group 31, 8D, L-16, etc.

It is a fact that most batteries in, for example, BCI Group Size 24 will be starting batteries, while most batteries made in size L-16 will be traction batteries. However, there are a number of sizes, notably 8D and Group 31 (among others) that are very popular form factors for a number of different uses.

One can find 8D batteries that are pure starting batteries, strict deep-cycle batteries, marine batteries, and even traction batteries (especially in EV usage) as well as AE batteries. And one can find "marine" batteries in a wide range of BCI group sizes and including 8D.

FWIW, as stated elsewhere in many places, I believe "marine" batteries are never the right ones to use in a motor coach. Use starting batteries for starting, and use AE, Traction, or "deep-cycle" batteries for your house systems. What size (form factor) you choose depends on many factors, including how much capacity (in amp-hours) you need or want, what the shape of the battery compartment will look like, how much weight you want to carry, etc.. Lastly, within "type", you will often be faced with a choice of technology, to include "traditional" flooded lead-acid (which, BTW, includes many "maintenance-free" batteries that are really flooded cells, just without user-accessible caps), gelled-electrolyte, Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM), and even Lithium-Ion (yes, there are AGM starting batteries, just as there are flooded deep-cycle batteries). Choice of technology will be driven by ease of service access, availability of proper venting, laziness of the owner, and other factors.

Choosing the right batteries is one of the often-overlooked "critical" decisions in how well your coach will perform, especially if you spend considerable time away from shore power.

Good luck on your research.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com




Hope this helps.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Sean Welsh (Sean)
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Username: Sean

Post Number: 820
Registered: 1-2003
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Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 6:43 pm:   


quote:

... used AGM's ... but they did require a different charging strategy than Gel or flooded as I recall.




Actually, AGM's will work just fine on flooded charging profiles, one of their key advantages over gel batteries, which very definitely require a different charge profile. If the only setting your charger has is for flooded batteries, you will do just fine with AGM's.

That said, chargers with more finely adjustable settings are always better than fixed-setting units, because recommended charge settings vary slightly even between brands of battery, and certainly type (e.g. traction vs. backup), even for flooded batteries.

FWIW.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Chuck Newman (Chuck_newman)
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Username: Chuck_newman

Post Number: 317
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 99.0.41.3

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Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 12:12 am:   

Sean,

What is your opinion/observations of the Trojan T-105. Any feedback from other users? I've used them in the past with good results but only had the coach a couple years.

This coach has excellent and easy service access, great non-powered ventilation, not overly lazy, and can still lift them without needing a pet gorilla. And I can get them locally for a hundred bucks each.
Chuck Newman (Chuck_newman)
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Username: Chuck_newman

Post Number: 318
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Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 12:23 am:   

I forgot to mention these will be used as slow draw "house batteries" only.
Sean Welsh (Sean)
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Username: Sean

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Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 1:29 am:   

Chuck,

I favor AGM or even gelled batteries over flooded for a variety of reasons:
  • Few, if any, people actually do as much maintenance as flooded batteries require -- they require it weekly at minimum and daily preferably.
  • Corrosive emissions from flooded batteries wreak havoc with whatever part of the coach they are installed in.
  • Hydrogen gas given off during the charging process is explosive.
  • They must be located in a vented compartment and can not be in occupancy areas.
  • They can not be discharged as deeply as AGM nor as many times as gelled.
  • They must be recharged more slowly than AGMs.
  • They must be kept vertical at all times.

That being said, the T105 is a traction battery -- an excellent choice for RV house batteries, and this particular make and model is the workhorse of the golf car industry -- it has a long and established track record. If you really want flooded batteries, you can't really go wrong with the T105. Of course, six volt batteries require more complex cable arrangements than 12 volt models.

Hope that helps.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 6:50 am:   

THe big advantage of AGM is their ability to absorb the charge at a higher rate , allowing shorter charge times IF you have the ability to actually provide a huge charge rate.

220A DC alt , go for it,, genset with batt charger , forgetabout it.Unless the noisemaker is above about 10KW the charge rate will suck, even with a "rated" 100A good charger.

The other advantage is the internal discharge is lower , so you can leave the coach unplugged longer with out battset damage.

"Few, if any, people actually do as much maintenance as flooded batteries require -- they require it weekly at minimum and daily preferably."

Perhaps in a forklift or on a golf cart where they are discharged to the limits daily (SOC 20%). Most campers will use a SOC limit of 50% to have the set last far longer .

Depending on the RATE of charge batt service can be monthly , we get by with semi annually with slow solar.

FF
Frank Radosti (Frank4104)
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Username: Frank4104

Post Number: 24
Registered: 8-2006
Posted From: 64.80.137.250


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Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 9:34 am:   

what about gulf cart batteries the heavy ones not the ones from walmart
FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
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Post Number: 753
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Posted From: 69.19.14.25

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Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 12:18 pm:   

Golf carts ARE deep cycle batts , RV marine are a joke , neither Starts or Deep cycle.

To have the longest battery life the ONLY way to not discharge them too deeply is to monitor the SOC State Of Charge.

Big buck inverters may, the Link setup is fine , also the "E-meter" and product from Bogartengineering is good and about $150.

It takes information to operate any DC battery system properly.

Onboard monitoring SOC is the only way , Volt meter or Hydrometer are too poor for realtime use.

Install the SOC meter , then buy the best batterys you can afford.

Golf carts with a good warentee , Trojans or Surettes , as a final set after you learn not to kill them.

FF
Frank Radosti (Frank4104)
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Post Number: 25
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Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 12:39 pm:   

Fred, I have A marine charging system that maintains the batteries wile on ac I want to install trojans I do not use a inverter except for light use tv when traviling ect.gen is always on in the summer live in fl.your thoughts!
Chuck Newman (Chuck_newman)
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Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 12:51 pm:   

Thank you Sean and Fred for the information. Now the sixty four dollar question: Will the additional cost of AGM's over wet cell batts be recovered in proportionally increased life with the AGM's?
Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
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Username: Truthhunter

Post Number: 129
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Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 3:51 pm:   

I think that question is valued at a lot more than $64, and would require a lot of exact application parameters, complete system specs. including items such as State of Charge monitors etc. etc., planned usage habits and willingness to maintain or not maintain for a accurate answer. If all that is too much to divulge (not yet know) then perhaps use the "how much money do I want to spend, this phase" approach to your informed decision making.
Very well spoken F.Freddie; when you suggest the cheapies are much less expensive to wreck on the first round of experience and system improvements (knowledge being part of those improvements)
Sean Welsh (Sean)
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Username: Sean

Post Number: 823
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Posted From: 67.142.130.29


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Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 6:05 pm:   

Chuck,

I personally believe that AGM batteries have a lower lifetime cost than wet cells. But that view is not shared by all (most?).

In part that is because AGM's will tolerate a higher DOD and require less time to recharge (at a higher rate), so you need fewer of them (less total AH capacity) to do the same job as wet cells.

FWIW.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
Tim Brandt (Timb)
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Post Number: 296
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Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 9:00 pm:   

Sean,

Interestingly enough that was my experience on our boat as well though I still felt the possitives of AGM outweighed the minuses. Particularly the lack of gassing and ability to operate well at any angle of heel
FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
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Posted on Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 6:29 am:   

AGM is for the folks that will pay for the ability to very rapidly recharge them , period,

They can be destroyed as easily as wet cells .

" I do not use a inverter except for light use tv when traviling ".

Great , but install a SOC monitor so you can know if you begin to destroy them , and can monitor in Real Time , how well your noisemaker returns them to fully charged.

For any buscamper that will spend even only a few nights boondocking , the SOC measurement is an insurance policy that is worth the install hassle , and cost.

FF
Frank Radosti (Frank4104)
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Posted on Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 8:18 am:   

Thanks for the info fred, I'll do the soc install when I install the new batteries...Frank
Sean Welsh (Sean)
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Posted on Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 1:10 pm:   


quote:

AGM is for the folks that will pay for the ability to very rapidly recharge them , period,

They can be destroyed as easily as wet cells



I'm sorry, Fred, but I disagree with you. AGM batteries will safely take much more abuse than wet cells, which are much more sensitive to overcharging and also to excessive depth of discharge.

When AGMs became widely available in the mid 90s, the telecommunications industry (where everything runs on batteries) switched over to AGM batteries exclusively -- we had previously been on flooded cells (gelled are a poor choice for this application).

The simple reason: Lifetime cost of ownership is lower.

Now, admittedly, unlike your personal time on your personal batteries, we had to actually pay people to do battery maintenance. And so a significant factor in that cost of ownership equation was the money we saved by not having to check and top electrolyte levels, clean terminals, or maintain battery room ventilators. But I assure you that many other factors came into play as well -- up to and including having to put less reinforcement into skyscrapers to hold batteries, because we could get the same amount of energy out of a smaller bank.

FWIW.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
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Posted on Friday, April 17, 2009 - 6:57 am:   

"AGM batteries will safely take much more abuse than wet cells, which are much more sensitive to overcharging and also to excessive depth of discharge."

Too high a charge Voltage will boil out some water from a std wet cell, EZ and at 65c a gallon cheap enough to replace.

Too high a charge Voltage on an AGM will require a walk to the AGM store , where not much is 65c.

Do it your way,

FF
R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
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Posted on Friday, April 17, 2009 - 10:55 am:   

:-)

RCB

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