| Author | Message | ||
| Kasse Weikel (More_s_than_as)
Registered Member Username: More_s_than_as Post Number: 30 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 24.176.245.108 Rating: N/A |
I have been trying to keep my thread titles archive friendly  after all thats been said in Ian's post about what we want to see on teh board in the future, i dont feel shy at all asking : what kind of technology IS out there right now as far as appliances go? (propane water heater, propane ovens and stove ranges ready to drop into custom counters and cabinetry, New electtric fridges/freezers LIKE ON SEAN'S VIDEO OF THE ODYSSEY). i want to do solar and deep cycle with only a fridge/freezer(i want ice), some lights, the water pump, low wattage audio, an outlet or two, and with the economy how it is i was thinking maybe a small flatscreen pulling off the system in the future The fridge and water pump can be ordered 12 or 24 volt correct?? what about lighting?? whats the advantage to 12 or 24 volt. is it to do with batteries? should i plan my electrical system starting there first? An inverter must be used for the house hold appliance and outlets? I planned on hooking another inverter to the alternator so when traveling can have the REAL sound system going and can make use of an outlet in case need to charge phone/computer and not wear on my deep cycles. Im confused about amp hours for im trying to figure out HOW MANY batteries i will need for the house system. how exactly does the rating on the battery tell me how many of em i will need in accordance to how much amperage my appliances will be using. should i locate the appliances first and THEN figure out the pull. The point of all that is to figure out how long between recharges as well correct? more batts = more money and weight but longer times between charge. But cant these batteries be charged off the alternator as well, and there is a way i assume to calculate how many solar panels would be needed in order to have no need for charging, or atleast not for a long time. Any tips on some good solar panels that are easy install? links and brandnames of refrigerators and sinks/faucets would be great! (i want to build my own counters and cabinets, so just want the raw goods). As always any help is appreciated OT, but, cant the entire plumbing system be done is good hosing? im sure there must be a company that makes high pressure long lasting hosing of some sort, instead of hard plastics (except for the toilet)????? | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 825 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.31  Rating: N/A |
Kasse, Please forgive me for being a bit blunt here, but I think you need to do some more research before posting these sorts of all-reaching questions. You are asking the rest of us on the board here to basically teach you all of the basics of converting a bus. I think most of us are happy to answer specific questions about thorny issues, but this sort of sweeping "tell me how to do it" is just a bit beyond the pale. With all due respect, there are books written on this subject, and some of the best are sold right here on this web site: http://www.busnut.com/bnostore/USstore/ http://www.busnut.com/epicconversionsupport.html I would suggest you start by reading a couple of the more general works cover-to-cover. Some of these are great how-to references on everything needed in a conversion. After that, I can highly recommend getting a copy of ANSI/NFPA 1192, which is the code for everything in an RV except the electrical system, available as a download for $35 from the NFPA. In there, you will learn, for example, that "hoses" can not be used for a plumbing system -- waste lines require listed DWV piping, and supply lines require listed supply pipes and fittings, although there are some "flexible" types of supply pipe such as PEX. I will also suggest a copy of NFPA 70, the National Electric Code, although this is spendy at $75 from NFPA. You can, as I suggested in another thread, research the needed sections at the library. Once you have been through all that, then you will have a foundation for coming back here with specific questions that you have developed. You should always start with a keyword search: http://www.busnut.com/cgi-bin/bbs/search.cgi for the topics you are interested in. Most general questions asked by newcomers have been asked, and answered, before. For example, a search of "best" AND "solar" AND "panels" would yield several threads where that subject has already been discussed. AFTER you have gone through that process, it is appropriate to then ask questions here that you could not find the answers to. That said, I would also suggest, once you are ready to ask specific questions here, that you ask about only one topic per thread. It's really difficult to even follow the discussion, let alone contribute in a meaningful way, when it hops around from batteries to inverters to water pumps to plumbing materials to refrigerators and back again. I hope you take these suggestions in the spirit in which they are intended, namely, to help you get the most out of this forum and jump-start the learning process for converting a bus. It is a massive undertaking, and you should expect to spend six months to a year learning all the various systems you will need to understand to complete your project. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Kasse Weikel (More_s_than_as)
Registered Member Username: More_s_than_as Post Number: 31 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 24.176.245.108 Rating: N/A |
wow...what confliction, some say they dont mind repeating answers to questions that have been asked before. i have a clear picture of it all and know how to use google, i just wanted to know maybe...WHAT BRAND YOUR FRIDGE WAS. sorry sean i was hoping to get knowledge from people who have already done all the research such as you have to make it easier on me. if it makes you feel better to watch us peons scramble around from way up there in your ivory tower, that is fine with me, ill go back to the archives and stop "burdenning" all of you here. and this is about month 4 into researching on this project, i would say that itll take MORE than a year to master EVERYTHING, especially if one never reached out to others Im sure its going to be a great "jump start" by just burrying my nose into books and not getting the work done. i shelled her out and layed in the floor without a book all in a week "tell me how to do it" ???? LOL well yeah duh, dont tell me how NOT to do it whenever some one has asked me that very same phrase i dont think i have ever given them such a cold shoulder and told them to go read a book you did read the bit in the thread about whats to come on this board about how new threads have been declining over the years because a lot of it has already been said and its crucial for the survival of this board to obtain new members that yes, will ask the same questions over again. I click the ad banners all the time and i know about the books for sale, but i get the underlying tone of your message sean, im sorry i upset you. your warm comments and open heart sure does know how to welcome fresh members to a board, thank you so much for your time sir, and have a great day! | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 828 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.31 Rating: |
Whoa. I see that "spirit in which ... intended" somehow got lost in translation. So let me get this straight. You are unwilling to take the time to read a good treatise on the overall methodology of bus conversions, which would answer in a mere few hours probably 80% of the questions you've asked on this board in the few days you've been here. You claim to "have a clear picture of it all" and that you know how to search, then immediately say you wanted to know what brand of fridge I have, which a simple search of my web site (that you've clearly visited) would reveal. You seem to feel that studying up on the subject before "getting the work done" is a waste of time, rather than a means to a better and likely faster conversion. Kasse, I have spent hundreds of hours on these boards answering people's questions (and dozens of hours asking questions of my own). Yes, I've answered the same questions over again many times, and, yes, I have read the discussion of this topic elsewhere. Your assertion that I have a closed heart or that I live in some kind of ivory tower where I relish -- how did you put it? -- watching "peons scramble" suggests you know virtually nothing about me. I am sorry that you have chosen to interpret my frank advice, which I will point out has been accompanied, in this and other threads, by concrete pointers to specific resources, as some sort of personal attack. It was certainly not intended that way. I did say I was being a bit blunt, and my opinion stands: the sorts of questions you've asked in this thread are well covered by books such as Dave Galey's "bible," George Myers' books on plumbing and electrical installations, and even the code reference to which I pointed you, and you will be well served to spend a little time with them. I'm certainly not the one to stop you from asking whatever questions you wish here. And I am usually more than happy to answer those questions wherein I have some experience or expertise to contribute. I probably have something I could write in answer to each question you asked in this thread. To do it justice, it would take me at least an hour and probably closer to two -- I try my best to be thorough, articulate, and correct. Instead, I suggested you start by reading up on some of the topics first. That's the best way for me (or anyone here, really) to be able to help you. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 756 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 69.19.14.20 Rating: N/A |
The real question is, HOW LONG? How long do you want to be able to dry camp in moderate (no heat no air cond) conditions. If you want days or months of endurance Propane appliances is about the only choice. Otherwise you are locked into noisemaker hours , stench , and of course maint.As are your neighbors. A few overnights at the truck stop , away from the campground power hose is fine for a noisemaker reliant coach. But SUCKS for a month of boondockin!! To do a conversion FIRST you need a list of DESIREMENTS, only then is how you can use OTS (off the shelf) parts and modern tech,to meet your goal. FF | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 1016 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.3.157.139  Rating: N/A |
I agree with FF. The first thing you need to do is decide how you will use your coach. I know this can sometimes be difficult, and your use of the coach may change over the years. We started out in our coach doing week-end trips, and after retiring, we do extended trips. This caused us to make a few changes to accommodate the longer times spent in the coach. For anyone here to answer your questions we need to know how the coach will be used. Week-end trips, short vacations, extended trips, full-timing?. Will you be staying where you have electric and water connection or dry camping?. How many people on board (1, 2, family of 4?) These are all relevant factors that need to be addressed when making design decisions. | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 1017 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 71.3.157.139 Rating: N/A |
An Inverter (or generator) is neccessary for 120 AC power when not connected to a power pole. Inverters are available in both 12 and 24 volt versions with diffent outputs. Outputs range from very small (for a laptop) to 4000 watts, capable of running roof airs. Inverters are also available in MSW (Modified Sine Wave) and Pure (True) Sine Wave. They are also available as inverter only or inverter/charger. Is your coach electrical system 12 or 24 volt? How many watts will you need from the inverter? Amp rating on appliances used X 120 will give you watts needed. Total watts divided by 12 or 24 will give you amps required from your battery bank. Amps required X hours used will give you amp/hopurs. This does not allow for ineffeciency loses. | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 393 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 70.60.107.86  Rating: N/A |
Sean wrote: "I have spent hundreds of hours on these boards answering people's questions (and dozens of hours asking questions of my own). Yes, I've answered the same questions over again many times, and, yes, I have read the discussion of this topic elsewhere. Your assertion that I have a closed heart or that I live in some kind of ivory tower where I relish -- how did you put it? -- watching "peons scramble" suggests you know virtually nothing about me." (MY COMMENT) Amen! Sean also wrote: "the sorts of questions you've asked in this thread are well covered by books such as Dave Galey's "bible," George Myers' books on plumbing and electrical installations, and even the code reference to which I pointed you, and you will be well served to spend a little time with them." (MY COMMENT) I came from 35 years in technical jobs in the motor vehicle industry but I knew very little that could be translated to buses. The above is what I did and it helped me get useful info quickly. Sean also wrote: "I suggested you start by reading up on some of the topics first. That's the best way for me (or anyone here, really) to be able to help you. -Sean " (MY COMMENT) Amen, again. Thanks for the help you've given me over the months, Sean (of course, there's been lots of good help from many others too). It's been very valuable. | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 802 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
Kasse, Lets step back here for a minute, and think about what reality is. There are a bunch of us here who are more than willing to both share information, and help out when a fellow nut needs it. The best testimony is McGyver's recent breakdown. Please note his thanks to 3 of us in particular. What you don't see is hours of long distance on cell phones, working thru an electrical diagnosis without schematics. As you can see, we got it. So am I willing to help, yes, and I have proved it! That said, I didn't even know where to start on your post, because I don't have time to write a book. Another thought, was a post about a year ago which started out "What everyone's mising..." concerning a suggestion for a different type of electrical system. The reason everyone missed it was because it wouldn't work. This board shares thousands of years of experience, and there is a reason why most of us do it the way we do. None of us like black water, but we have seperate black and grey water tanks for a reason. RV toilets are installed directly over black water tanks for a reason. Not only is dumping grey water prohibited in RV and plumbing codes, its prohibited by the vehicle code in California. My late mother once said "You'll get more flies with honey than you will with vinegar." I'm not saying you should tolerate an offensive remark if you should be targeted. I am saying you should take a deep breath, step back, think about the recent posts, then look at the last hundred posts or so, and offer Sean an apology. I'm not talking about the gaffe on panel grounding either, a bunch of us have made mistakes, and most of us will admit them. The rest of us can learn from them. So, get the books, read 'em, and we will be glad to help on specifics. Don't go buy any equipment, batteries, etc. until you understand why most of us do it the way we do. HTH, George | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 803 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.55.111.6 Rating: N/A |
Kasse, One more thought, to reinforce the previous suggestions on reading up on a conversion before you start, so you do it right the first time. Over a year ago, someone posted how great a "Sun Cloud" (I think) electric heater was. This thing cost over $400, and put out the exact same amount of heat as a $29.95 heater from a home store. The poster got at least 50 replies telling him this, and voicing their concerns that his heater couldn't heat his bus in cool weather. We got an indignant reply saying "we weren't up on new technology, etc." This owner published pictures of his conversion in progress, where we could see his generator, and its rating. When we did the Wattage calculations, we found that he couldn't flush his toilet, wash his hands, and cook breakfast afterward, because of lack of inverter and generator capacity. Now, the generator was sold thru the fleas, and the bus has been for sale for a looong time... This is an ALL electric bus, and I am being deliberately obscure. G | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1553 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.71.102.36  Rating: N/A |
Kasse, you are getting some of the best advice in the bus conversion world here. Nobody who is trying to sell you something is going to do for you what we've already done. Nothing wrong with being independent, strong willed and run the road less traveled. That's us too!! However, there are rules, conventions, laws, and physics involved, which one may attempt to refute or ignore, at great cost. 4 months of research? I work in the industry since the mid 80's, owned my coach for a decade, read everything there is to read, chatted with the drivers who drove them, the mechanics who fix them, engineers who design them, vendors who supply the parts, and those who have gone before me into the wild world of bus conversion. I'm beginning to feel confident enough to start trying to finish my bus conversion... Don't worry about the rough start, others who are regulars here started out a little rough, and they fit in just fine now. We'll forgive you too, now, go get some more reading done. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 430 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.197.237  Rating: N/A |
I have read the above posts and I did not take Seans advice as rude,offensive and all that. I was a newbie and I consider myself as one yet compared to Sean,BW, George,Bruce,Jack and the hundreds more that I can't remember. I have always tried to read and study any material concerning a project or job I am attempting. Then if I need to clarify or need more info, I will ask questions then. I can't tell you how much I have learned from this board and the vast knowledge presented,sometimes not even asking just reading the past and present post answers a lot of questions and reflects on past problems that I have said DUMMY why did I not do it the KISS way like they said. I know no one means to offend anyone but when I hear and see what I need to find, I always try to read and then ask questions. I know that Sean did not mean to be rude to you Kassee but think about what he goes thru to obtain his knowledge about things also. No offense to you either. Gomer Oh BTW Welcome to the wonderful world of Bus Nuts since I did not get to say this when you came on board. | ||
| macgyver (91flyer)
Registered Member Username: 91flyer Post Number: 330 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 74.193.225.134  Rating: N/A |
Kasse, I have to agree with these guys... Sean was being blunt (as he stated), but in no way was he attacking you on a personal level... In our world of Nutty Endeavors... Bluntness is most often the method of choice, right next to KISS. The truly knowledgeable don't dance around a subject, they don't sugar coat the facts and they don't try to mislead you... They state the way things are, the way they're likely to be and what's been done previously... What works, what doesn't. Etc... I've yet to complete my own first conversion... This is my THIRD bus now!! My first was a little 30ft Bookmobile built on a Bluebird chassis... It just wasn't big enough for my needs. The second was a 60 foot MONSTER that I simply could do nothing with for several reasons... Mostly money and time. My third, the one I have now... She's my true baby. I've always liked the old GMC's... My two favorites are the Scenicruiser and the Buffalo coaches... The SC's are extremely rare, and when you find one... They're usually unreasonably expensive for the condition they're in. I found my current bus by pure chance. I wasn't even LOOKING for it... I just happened to come across it while looking for something else (can't even remember what it was I was originally looking for now!)... But, point is... My current coach? She's the one I'm finally going to finish a conversion with. She's the one that screamed at me from across the nation and got my attention when there were sooooo many others swimming in that sea.... I know what I'd like to do with her... Do I know HOW to accomplish what I want to do? Mostly not... It's trial and error. It's researching the necessary materials... And... Here's the most important aspect new converters often overlook, and most often IGNORE.... ** EVERYTHING IS A COMPROMISE ** That's a simple fact. No matter WHAT it is you want to do, you're GOING to make compromises to accomplish a BALANCE of your goals and needs. After all, you can't have everything... If you could, you would be buying a multi-million dollar 250ft yacht instead of converting an old bus into something livable, usable and enjoyable to drive and maintain... Sean's core advice is sound, and it's the same advice *EVERY ONE OF US* has received at one point or another. Now, I want you to understand that I'm speaking from my own experiences in this post... I'm not attacking you, I'm not berating you, and... I'm being as blunt as I can, while trying to make sure you understand these things, and to keep your motivation, interest and inspiration alive and kicking... Without those things... Your dream will DIE. NONE of us want to see that happen... We want MORE people to come into the group, to relish in the joy, to experience the pain and to understand what it is that makes us tick... And, more importantly, what makes YOU tick. Please go back and read Sean's post... Read it as if it were to someone else and not to you... Read it as an outsider looking into our little nook of the web and you'll see that he was not trying to offend or attack you, and his advice was well intentioned.... I've personally bought many... MANY books on the subjects of electronics, woodworking, metalworking, plumbing, etc... I can't tell you how many thousands of dollars *JUST IN BOOKS* I've purchased to simply PREPARE for my conversion... It's all about research, and more importantly... It's about being TRUTHFUL, not only to yourself, but to those you ask assistance of, regarding what your needs and DREAMS are for your conversion. Before you respond to any more posts... Please, step away from the computer... Get out a notebook and pen and start writing things down... Many points have already been made, but the MOST important question of any that have been asked is actually the simplest to answer. All other questions come after this single one.... What will you use your bus for? When you can answer that question truthfully, then come back and tell us... Be prepared for criticism (it's almost always constructive). Be prepared for questions of yourself and needs. Be prepared to be disappointed. Be prepared to be excited. And most importantly..... Be prepared to receive answers that don't actually answer any of your questions! Why? Nobody except you can truly answer the toughest questions you will eventually ask... Such as the questions you originally posed in this thread. Only you can truly answer these kinds of questions... The rest of us can only guide you in giving yourself answers that are reasonably close to your needs... Or even answers that are simply resonable.... Speaking of answers... Have the materials I provided you regarding your engine been useful to you? Cheers! -Mac | ||
| macgyver (91flyer)
Registered Member Username: 91flyer Post Number: 333 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 74.193.225.134 Rating: N/A |
Correction... I also had a couple of other skoolies before the current 4905... One was a 35 footer, the other was a 40 footer (I think)... But it's irrelevant. Just wanted to correct the statement, since I didn't have any intention of converting those two buses and used them only for moving... lol... ;) -Mac | ||
| R.C.Bishop (Chuckllb)
Registered Member Username: Chuckllb Post Number: 631 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 75.210.237.5 Rating: N/A |
Kasse...I've stayed out out this for reason...until now. You have, as said by others, the richest, most knowledgeable base of information for this "hobby" that is available to anyone in the world...and it is all FREE...thanx to Ian, BW and others. This is a first class "professional" Encyclopaedia for those who are looking for or are in need of information regarding buses..conversion, systems, ideas...and...practical experience. Many of us are "just folks" who started as newbies...for me 9 years ago..(and my conversion is still "in progress"). Many, however are truly professionals who earn their livings daily working in the industry about which they offer FREE advice..... from years of skill (experience)in their field. If I attempted to name them I would leave someone out probably. It becomes very clear who "they" are...quickly. What is offered here is that experience and skill. It is opinion...one can take it or leave it...no charge. Ask questions..get answers (opinions). Simple. What one does with the answers is entirely irrelevant to the posts. This board and most all of the participants have provided me with everything I could ask for to build a good conversion. Many have offered to go the extra mile along the way for some particular thing I was having difficulty with...and it all began with READING as much as I could read..Dave Gailey, George Myers, Fred Hobe et al. THEN I understood what I was asking and generally understood clarification or suggestions. What a great education....all, except for books, FREE! Ask on....with kind reverence for those "who have gone before you"! Experience really IS the best teacher. In answer to your original question, we use a Magic Chef, 2 door, 11 cu ft. house fridge. No ice maker. FWIW RCB | ||
| macgyver (91flyer)
Registered Member Username: 91flyer Post Number: 336 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 74.193.225.134 Rating: N/A |
I hope we didn't scare the guy off...  -Mac | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 136 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.235.190  Rating: N/A |
auh hell, nothing a good bus sleep overnight , parked in back of Holiday won't remedy. You all light up on yourselves now, cause we all do it our way, eventually! | ||
| JJ Woden (Jj_woden)
Registered Member Username: Jj_woden Post Number: 44 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 216.161.223.60 Rating: N/A |
Good post Sean. I read it as if I was a big kid with a new toy.... Oh wait ... I AM a big kid with a new toy! Seriously, this board is a good source of information, but I have to do enough research to ask the right questions. And know enough to digest the answers. Don't water it down, keep it real, and thats what you've done. And you didn't lose him, he is reading this post twice a day, at least. That's what I did. Kasse, come on back, you are welcome here. These guys will set you straight and they DO have your best interests in mind. JJ Woden | ||
| John and Barb Tesser (Bigrigger)
Registered Member Username: Bigrigger Post Number: 157 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 24.179.147.233  Rating: N/A |
Good job JJ, you must have been the guy sitting across from me in the "conflict management" meetings! | ||
| Kasse Weikel (More_s_than_as)
Registered Member Username: More_s_than_as Post Number: 32 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 24.205.97.163 Rating: N/A |
conflict managers lmfao, i did that in school was kinda fun |
