| Author | Message | ||
| David Anderson (168.215.176.98) Rating: |
I have been installing my Webasto system all this week. To install the heater, 11 gallon water heater, SJ 40,000 btu block heater/exchanger, water pump, and six heaters took about 40 hours. That includes running around buying misc. hardware and fittings. I have not wired up the system. Will do that next week. I'm sure a shop could do it faster, but for the novice following the book's instructions is representative of what time it will take. My total cost is going to be about $3500. I bought most of the gear from Wrico. Dick Wright has been a great with technical help. It's pricey for a heating system, but I have hydronic heating in my house and love it so much that I wanted it in the coach, also. I also like the heat exchanger concept it offers to give coach heat while the engine is running and block heating when in cold climates. Just passing on some info for the curious. David Anderson | ||
| Driving Miss Lazy (66.190.119.82) Rating: N/A |
Sounds like an awfully good price. Webasto systems are typically in the $5-6,000 area. Richard | ||
| John Biundo (Jbiundo) (67.112.121.112)
Rating: N/A |
David, Thanks for the update. Always good to hear first-hand experiences. Helps with the planning. Since you opened the topic, here are a couple of questions if you don't mind: I may not be recalling correctly, but I thought "Webasto" referred to just the furnace itself. True? If so, it sounds like you bought a "total system" from Dick Wright. True? What "extras" did you have to run around and buy. Just some small miscellaneous stuff to customize to your installation? Or major stuff? How does the Wrico system compare to the Aqua Hot (which, again if I'm not mistaken, also uses the Webasto furnace)? Did you compare them, and if so, what are the relative strengths/weaknesses? As Richard notes, if your $3500 price tag includes a comparable system, it's a heckuva lot cheaper than the Aqua Hot! Did your 40 hours include plumbing in the engine pre-heater circuit? How long do you think the wiring will take? How good were the installation instructions that came with the system? Sorry for all the questions, but I'd love to get some good first-hand info on this stuff! Thanks in advance, John | ||
| Emery Leraand (142.173.181.60)
Rating: N/A |
Hi David About to take delivery on a Webasto unit and then build it in to a system. Joe Shelton was kind enough to send me a schematic for the installation he is using, but any additional ideas would be appreciated. Will be in the market for a larger circulating pump, currently considering March on the advice of another kind bus nut. Regards Emery 1958 MCI 96 | ||
| David Anderson (66.90.194.110) Rating: N/A |
Yes, I bought the complete system from Wrico. I bought it in 2000 at the rally. Dick gave me a Laughlin show discount. It came with a Seaward water heater. Had to upgrade to the high flow pump. I had about 120 feet of hose run. I used type L copper for some long straight runs down the walls and through the middle tunnel. Don't know anything about the Aquahot system, so I can't comment. The extras included copper fittings, barb fittings, valves etc. (I've used 30 hose clamps so far). The system uses 5/8 copper fittings, so the 3/4" hose wouldn't fit over 3/4" copper. I had to cut a piece of 5/8" tubing and sweat it inside the 3/4" tubing. (I found 5/8" at a HVAC contractor store.) I used 3/4" because I had it from a previous job, and I couldn't get 5/8" tees (needed one tee for summer bypass line). The 5/8" street ells made perfect hose barbs for a couple of tight turns I had to make. I could sweat a 5/8" street ell into a 3/4" copper pipe, put a 5/8" copper tube on the female end of the street ell for a great hose barb. This made for a cheap union of two ends. The time did include mounting the SJ heat exchanger. I mounted it near the engine, below the water line. It is about 20" from the starter hanging on the bus frame near where the old AC condensor was located. The expansion tank is just left of the bus air cleaner intake in the engine compartment. It is the high point of the system. I haven't wired any circuits yet. I figured a way to modify the Webasto motorhome wiring diagram that came with the heater to use the heat circuit from my Coleman rooftops. (I don't have heat strips). I'll use the white wire from two thermostats to latch relays to fire the system. This will zone the front and back of the coach. One thing I didn't do that Dick recommended is to put a balancing valve bypass behind each heater to control volume through the heater. I just didn't have room. I hope this doesn't haunt me later. Each heater has its own switch so it can be turned off if too hot. Dick also recommends one heater blowing in the step area. I did put one there. The wiring diagram was ok and easy to follow. It came with 3 suggested installations in various motorhomes. As for the wiring installation, I'll say it will take about 12 to 16 hours. David Anderson 1985 Eagle 10 | ||
| Geoff (64.1.0.216)
Rating: N/A |
I have a 45,000 btu Webasto in my bus and the whole system cost me around $2,000. I got the Scholastic Series Webasto unit from ronthebusnut along with three box heaters and a heat exchanger water heater. The Scholastic Series comes with a 15-20 gph circulating pump and it mounts in the middle of the bus tying into the existing heating system (on my bus that would be the copper lines running to the driver's heat/defrost from the engine). The Webasto then heats up the entire engine cooling system while providing interior heat through the box heaters. Unlike the other Webasto system, the engine is heated directly rather than through a heat exchange box. The difference here is with the Wrico/Webasto system you have a separate heating system with it's own fluid (antifreeze/water mixure) and with the Scholastic Series you use the existing engine and interior coolant/heating system and less parts. I am also using a wall thermostat to turn the unit on and off, and I must also add that I have only been able to use the unit a few times (usually to pre-heat my engine) so I may have a few bugs to work out, especially in the cycling department. Something else I am interested in adding is hydronic baseboard heaters (radiant heaters with no fan) as used in a home system-- anyone use these? they would require no electric fan and cut down on electical use. --Geoff '82 RTS CA | ||
| David Anderson (66.90.194.251) Rating: N/A |
The Webasto installation manual had a drawing similar to what Geoff did, but on an MCI, and it still used the SJ 40,000btu heat exchanger even though it was plumbed into the coach heating system. They do sell fin type baseboard heaters that use no fan. I think they are sold by the foot. I think Wrico sells them. Geoff, do you have a bypass in the lines to the engine when parked, or does it receive Webasto heat at all times the furnace operates? If it does bypass, do you have the expansion tank? If it doesn't bypass, do you give up many btu's in the engine compartment? David Anderson | ||
| Geoff (64.1.0.216)
Rating: N/A |
"Geoff, do you have a bypass in the lines to the engine when parked, or does it receive Webasto heat at all times the furnace operates? If it does bypass, do you have the expansion tank? If it doesn't bypass, do you give up many btu's in the engine compartment?" Hi, David I have a 2 gate valves I can close off to keep the Webasto heat only in the interior without heating up the engine. I have successfully run my Webasto like this, except in my owner's manual it states I need to have a minimum of 2.6 gallons of coolant in the system, so I am afraid if I run the interior heater lines and heaters only I may be running a bit short or close to short. But I have also used the Webasto several times to pre-heat the engine and interior, and while it takes a little longer to heat up the coolant that way it works just fine. Like I mentioned previously, I haven't been able to use my Webasto more than a few times in various ways so I'm still seeing what it is capable of. I have yet to run it all night on a camping trip, I haven't been anywhere that I needed it yet! --Geoff '82 RTS CA | ||
| Geoff (64.1.0.216)
Rating: N/A |
Oh, I forgot to answer the expansion tank question-- when I close the gate valves and heat the interior only I have no means of expansion! That was an oversight on my end, nothing has ever leaked or burst when doing this the few time I have tried it, but if I decide to keep the engine closed off I will definitely install an expansion tank in the system. My Webasto Scholastic manual makes no mention (as I recall) for an expansion tank since it is tied into the engine with it's own radiator and expansion tank with radiator cap. --Geoff | ||
| joe shelton (Littlewind) (67.241.230.64)
Rating: N/A |
If you want to totally bypass the engine when parked, the system must have a second expansion tank or you'll pop a line. I am going to install two ball-valves to isolate the engine for miantenance only. I figure that I need only shut one valve if I want to not heat the engine while parked and still use my stock expansion tank with no need to install a second. Dose this make sense to any of you? I have 3 fan-heat units each with it's own thermostat. I would like to consider replacing with baseboard heaters. Joe Shelton 4106-2119 | ||
| Bus Jock (198.81.26.174)
Rating: N/A |
A couple of comments. 1.. I do not shut off the engine, but rather have a check valve with enough spring pressure to stop the flow if the rest of the system is open. When I close off the driver heat it forces the check open and heats the engine. Works fine. never have to worry about opening and closing engine room valves, and needing a separate expansion tank. Also could just close one valve, still expands into engine tank. Draw back is some flow loss. I will eventually install a motorerized valve. 2.. Be very careful of pipe size and elbows etc. Good idea to use the tables in ASHRAE manual to size the pipes for low flow rate (feet per minute) etc. My bus was connected with a lot of 5/8 hose and pipe. That's a no no. Not enough flow. As a cure, since all that hose is buried, I have installed a second circ pump (March) that is needed to get the minimum flow rate. 3.. Below about 4-5 gpm you will zorch the boiler! That is about 27 deg F. You can easily find the flow rate by back calculating from the temp difference on the boiler. Don't forget to figure the specific heat of the fluid, not water. It's about 75% of the SH of water, and is almost twice as viscous. Makes quite o bit of difference in the required flow and head. 4.. I think the March pumps are a much better deal than the stock pump. It has replacable parts, and costs about 1/2 the $ of the Webasto pump. I use a 809-br-hs-12VDC. (Brass, High speed) At 4gpm it will give 8 feet of head, about twice the stock Webasto pump. You can replace all parts, brushes etc. Mag seal, no leakage ever. 5. Next plan is to hook up the Genset. I am thinking os using a heat exchanger since I have it already. Jock Fugitt | ||
| Geoff (64.1.0.141)
Rating: N/A |
After reading Jock's post I re-checked my Webasto Scholastic Series circulation pump flow rate, and it is 15-20 gallons per minute. This would seem more than adequate, and has worked well with my 3/4" OD copper tubing that came with the bus. As far as "zorch"ing the boiler, I have had mine overheat when I developed an air lock in the system and the coolant wouldn't flow. Within a couple of minutes the boiler got so hot it blew the overheat fuse. Lucky I was able to figure out what happened by testing the circuits-- the manual wants you to use their plug-in hand tester ($$$) to diagnose problems when an ohm meter and a circuit diagram is all you really need. --Geoff '82 RTS CA | ||
| Bus Jock (198.81.26.174)
Rating: N/A |
Geoff, Yes I agree an ohm meter works fine. I have the ckt for the external stuff but not the brain box. I had it fail last year. I carefully took it apart and tried to fix it. I was sure it was bad relay contact. No it wasn't. This year when I put in my new pump I took it apart again and traced part of the circuit to see how the pump was powered. In the process of ohming stuff I found a broken ground at the plug. I resoldered it and now I think I have an expensive spare part. I am not familiar with the Webasto "scholastic", The webasto people tend to give out the "dead head" pressure and the "open flow" flow rate, and list them as if they were a flow at head rating. I tried to get a pump curve from Webasto. None was available. They quoted the same BS thats in my manual. I measured it and it was the blocked head, not head at flow. If your pump works fine you should be OK. For a quick check, measure the temp delta. If it's around 20 deg F, you are in fine shape. 3/4 pipe and hose should give a good system. When you look at the tables you see that 3/4 has almost twice the folw of 5/8 inch. Jock Fugitt | ||
| David Anderson (66.90.196.246) Rating: N/A |
Jock, I wondered about the flow difference. It's interesting that all the Webasto heaters have 5/8" tubing, but the hoses are all 3/4". I tried really hard to get the hose over 3/4" copper pipe, but had no success. Therefore, all my fittings are 5/8" slipped into 3/4" hose. I hope this won't be a problem. I do have the high volume pump. Surely, it should work because I'm plumbing it up just like the pictures in the manual. As for the few elbows I had to install, they are of the sweeping ell type and not a hard 90 degree turn. I'm hoping this will cut down on line friction. David Anderson | ||
| joe shelton (Littlewind) (67.241.228.162)
Rating: N/A |
Jock, you say "measure the temp delta. If it's around 20 deg F..." where would I measure it? Is it a temp defferance that I am messuring? I too have done extensive trouble-shooting of my webasto system using the ohm?volt meter. The box is the only place I get lost but it's not too tuff to see if power is coming or going or for open/closed curciets. The blower motor was bad and replacement was $300! Joe | ||
| Jerry (152.163.188.227)
Rating: N/A |
Aqua Hot Experience -- I installed and 45k btu Aqua Hot sytem with engine preheat and "motor aid" (running engine heats storage tank within unit) and am very happy with its operation. Although the system cost almost as much as I paid for the whole bus (about $5-6k) I am happy with the "one" unit instalation (except for fan units through out the bus). No domestic hot water storage tank needed as it makes hot domestic water on demand. I can walk into a "cold" bus and within about 4 mins of turning the "diesel" heat source switch I have water warm enough to start takeing a shower and it makes it faster than I can use it. I also have a large fan unit in the dash for heat availability long before the engine will provide it (though stricly by the book DOT says something about interior heat must be able to be provided independently of auxiliary heating units -- it by engine). When electric is avialable the unit has a built in about 1500w electrical heating element to provide heat without running the diesel Webasto unit (though without the same btu capacity). Engine preheat works well but I'm guessing installing a boost pump in the "morotaid" mode will provide more heat to the unit when the engine is running. Most of the instalation time was running the lines to the different units through out the bus and the engine circuit. My instalation isn't complete yet (conversion in progress) but happy with the way it works so far. Jerry 4106-1750 near St Louis |
