| Author | Message | ||
| Beefmalone (Beefmalone) (67.32.252.169)
Rating: N/A |
Ok guys, you've been a big help so far. Assuming I buy this Mack/Flxible, what things should I do IMMEDIATELY to start getting it ready to hit the road (on a limited basis) again? I'm sure the fuel filters will need to be replaced. Does diesel fuel go bad after a while the same way gasoline does? If so, how do I drain it? Is it hard to change the oil? What weight should I use? Anything I'm forgetting? | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong) (24.127.74.29)
Rating: N/A |
~1: Change the oil. It's not hard to do, you just have to get under the tail to get to the oil pan drain plug. But first, find out what engine it has. If it's a Detroit Diesel, then you want to purchase STRAIGHT 40wt, CF-2 oil for it. NO MULTI-GRADES!!!! Chevron Delo 100, Shell Rotella or Mobile/DDA Delvac are three common brands. Chances are you won't find this at WalMart, you'll have to order it from a local fuel distributor or NAPA truck parts house. Comes in gallon jugs, six per case, around $50-$60 a case or so. You'll need two cases, as most DDAs take seven gallons per oil change. If it's not a Detroit, contact the manufacturer for their recommendation. ~2: Change the oil filter, too! ~3: Change the fuel filters, both primary and secondary. Buy spares, because unless the tank was stored full, you're going to have "black death" in there (algae), especially in areas of high humidity. Be sure to fill the fuel filters with fuel before reinstalling - you should have at least one 5-gallon can of diesel on hand. ~4: If in fact it's a Flx, then there's a drain plug on the bottom of the fuel tank; the filler is located about 5' behind the RF wheel at knee height. IIRC, it's a 125 gallon tank. Since the bus probably doesn't have a fuel gauge, use a piece of old garden hose to stick the tank to see how much fuel is in it. ~5: Check the tire pressures. Without weighing the bus, start off with about 90 lbs in all six tires. After you get it running, then take it across some truck scales, to determine it's actual weight, per axle and total. Divide each axle's weight by the number of tires per axle, and add 100#s as a "fudge factor for stuff". Once you've determined the weight each tire is carrying, contact a dealer for the tire brand, and ask him to look up the correct psi for the weight being carried in his charts. Or check the website for that brand. ~6: Buy new batteries for it - probably two 8Ds is what's in there. Clean all the connections VERY thoroughly before hooking everything back up. ~7: When cranking to start, suggest you use the rear start switches, located on the RH side of the engine compartment. Spin the starter for 10-15 seconds, then let it sit for a minute, then repeat. It should, if in OK shape, start on the second or third try. Avoid ether use - can destroy an engine if not used properly. ~8: If it starts, great! But if you try to shut it down before the air pressure reaches 60 psi or so, it won't. You'll have to manually tweak the fuel shut-off on the governor. Or wait til you've got over 60 psi and try it then. ~9: If it runs for a few minutes and then dies, check the secondary fuel filter. If it's empty, or nearly so, look at it closely for "black death". If there's algae slime on it, it's time to remove and clean the fuel tank - not an easy task unless you've got a pit or hoist. . . ~10: If you've got a portable air compressor that will put out up to 120 psi, there may be a quick-disconnect in the engine compartment, passenger side above the transmission, that will allow you to pressurize the entire coach. If so, go for it before starting the powertrain. Makes it a lot easier to hear air leaks. ~11: Go to the "Articles of Interest" link on the main BNO page, and print out the pre-trip inspection guideline. Use it to do a complete walk-around before you move the coach. Are we having fun yet??? HTH, RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| Beefmalone (Beefmalone) (66.156.168.218)
Rating: N/A |
thanks for the great advice. I've already cranked it once and it fired after only a few seconds & idled for over 10min. I shut it down and it restarted immediately, FWIW. I don't know the condition of the batteries since it's hooked up to shore power. The plug connects to the side of the coach in the back above the engine. It's about halfway up the side between the engine & roof. If you stand in the bedroom you can hear a loud electrical humming noise. I don't know if that's normal or a bad thing. I'll be sure and check the tank for this algae. If I change the filters now will I have to do any priming or will refilling them before installation be sufficient? I hope so b/c I don't have a vacuum pump. | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong) (24.127.74.29)
Rating: N/A |
You've started it? What engine is back there? Was it sitting cross-ways, or straight in? If you fill the filters w/ fuel before installing them, you shouldn't have to reprime. Theoretically. . . RJ | ||
| Johnny (63.159.197.165)
Rating: N/A |
Why not 15W-40 Rotella? How will this hurt anything? | ||
| Beefmalone (Beefmalone) (67.33.237.182)
Rating: N/A |
Yes, I've started it & let it idle. I tried the brakes & the hissed FWIW. It was too wet where it was sitting to try and move it. I didn't get a good look at the engine, but as soon as I get back there w/ my snake boots I'll check it out. | ||
| DaveD (207.236.51.229)
Rating: N/A |
2-stroke diesels do not work well with multi-grade oils. Significantly increased oil consumption is one side effect of using a multi-grade oil. Reduced engine life is another. Detroit Diesel has very specific requirements for engine lubricating oil on their website. Go with what DD specifies. Cost is not an issue. It's not priced much differently from multi-grades, but generally needs to be picked up from an oil distributor ordered through an auto parts outlet. DaveD | ||
| Scott Whitney (66.82.9.15) Rating: N/A |
Regarding RJ's point #10, the aux. air fill may also be located behind the front bumper under the front entry stairs. If the brakes hiss when you apply them, there is probably a leak in the lines somewhere. The hum is probably an old fashioned converter of some sort. The batteries must be decent condition if they started it up. Even though plugged into shore power, that would only maintain a float. So at least they are holding enough charge to crank the ol' girl when they have been floated. They may die quickly, when taken off float, but you could maybe drive it home and then find out. How far is this place from where you live? Don thine snake boots and tell us what engine this beastie has!!! : ^ ) Scott P.S. You may know this already, but don't crawl under that bus when it is on the air suspension unless it is properly blocked up at the frame. | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj) (63.224.197.10)
Rating: N/A |
Just a thought playing Devil's advocate: Why change the oil if it does not need changing? Oil by its self just does not go bad. Certainly check the level and condition and.... How about just changing the oil filture(s) along with all the fuel filture(s)? Keep the batteries you have if they work right now--you can always get new ones later. This can save some money. A chassis lube immediately upon obtaining roadworthyness would be a good idea. And when you get the old girl up and running be sure to have fun cruising around for a couple of HOURS to make sure everything gets warmed up. Diesel fuel by itself can last a long time. What kills it is algae and other bugs that love to live in it and multiply. These can clog fuel filtures. Water is the other killer of diesel fuel. Before you go to the expense of changing the oil and fuel, trying using what you have now with new filtures. Also check up under the chassis for critters nest's and signs of weeds growing and stuff. You tires will thump for awhile until they get rid of the flat spots from sitting for so long. Be sure to check out the brakes and stuff along with the condition of the various belts and hoses. Sosss.....other than a lube job along with fresh filtures and a good chassis inspection, there is really nothing else you can do to really insure the bus's roadability other than firing her up. Try to avoid prolonged idling as diesels do not like that and give the girl some time to slowly wake up and stretch her legs. Also be sure to bring along some friends and have fun. Then when you have time go ahead and spend the couple of hundred of bucks and have a professional mechanic go from bumper to bumper and give the girl a good inspection. Good luck. | ||
| Beefmalone (Beefmalone) (67.33.235.131)
Rating: N/A |
One thing I should add is that the brakes don't continuously hiss, they just his for a second or two. I thought that was normal when you apply the brakes? Are the fuel & oil filters accessible from the top or do you have to get under the bus to get at them? If I get it, it will have to make an 11 mile trip from where it's at to where it's going. | ||
| Scott Whitney (66.82.9.15) Rating: N/A |
Without knowing the engine type or its orientation, it is hard to say where filters might be. But I'll make a *huge* assumption that is is a DD 8V71 transversly mounted. If so, good chance the fuel filters are at chest height and easily accessible when you open the engine compartment. You can probably reach the oil filter and get it out, without crawling underneath too far (just arms reach). Or you can do it before you air it up - there might be enough clearence to work . . . But for an 11 mile trip, I'd wait till you get it home to mess with the oil. Actually, even if your tank was totally gunked up with black death, you could probably make it home on the contents of the filters, stopping only once to refill them! Start with new filters and a fill them to the brim with new fuel before putting them on. Keep a jerry can of fresh diesel with you for the trip. That way, if any gunk starts bogging you down and robbing your power, you can take off the filters and fillem up again with new fuel. . . BTW, I don't recommend trying to drive on just the filter contents, but it might work in a pinch! I am guessing the drive will be on rural roads and not urban streets. . . ? Scott | ||
| Beefmalone (Beefmalone) (67.33.235.118)
Rating: N/A |
I think it's a DD 8v71 too, but I'll know for sure next weekend when I go back & take some pics to show you guys. Are there generic part numbers for the filters or will I have to look them up for the specific application? I'll be changing the oil asap regardless, but I'll probably do the filter first just to be safe. It was supposed to have been run & driven up and down the road a few miles about 10 months ago. Before that it was sitting for at least 2-3 years. I don't know if they did anything to get it to it's present spot other than just firing her up. The roads I have to go down are just rural, barely 2lane roads. I guess if it dies I can always go get the school bus to drag her in...or maybe not. | ||
| R.C.Bishop (128.123.221.211)
Rating: N/A |
RJ.......speaking of Ether...what IS the proper procedure. I have it in my coach...haven't used it yet, but today when I started it it took four tries. Temp was low 40's after a low in the 20's last night. Thanx.  RCB | ||
| DaveD (206.47.206.114)
Rating: N/A |
Do you have a block heater? I just moved my bus tonight. We're expecteing freezing rain and it was parked too near a old maple. It's been just below freezing all day. I plugged the block heater in for about an hour before I started it and it started on the first couple of turns. DaveD | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior) (64.229.212.43)
Rating: N/A |
A couple of things you can do to check your air system, not popularly mentioned in other posts: Checking for Air Integrity Air Compressor Build-up Time Brake action at the wheels I'll list the steps and assume a good test result for clarity of writing. Further down I'll detail what to do or think if there is a failure in a test result. DO NOT GO UNDER AN AIR SUSPENDED BUS UNLESS THERE IS SPACE FOR YOU TO FIT WITH THE SUSPENSION COLLAPSED. Or go ahead and make yourself famous! Busnuts and Trainers everywhere will be using you as another illustration of the stupidity that takes over when someone thinks they know what they are doing! But I digress.... Checking for air integrity (or "does it leak?") Air up the bus, block the wheels and shut off the motor. 1) Watch the air gauge and listen for leaks. If there is no noticeable leak after about a minute, great! You can make some assumptions about your air suspension and some features of your brake valves being ok. 2) Next, if you are equipped with some form of air parking system (spring, maxi, DD3, etc) release the parking brake, and repeat your patient 1 minute test listening and watching. If there is no air loss, then your parking brake circuit and the diaphragms in the chambers are ok. 3) Next, add to the last check by pushing the brake pedal to the floor and hold it there. As before, 1 minute and no leak, the service brake circuit is in great shape. If it shows a leak during the first part of this test, you can't reliably check the brakes for air integrity. You can at least satisfy your self that you don't have a massive leak in your brake circuits by doing the following: If the coach is equipped with a working pressure protection valve, if the leak is due to the air suspension, the air pressure will drop until the PPV closes, this can be anywhere from 40 to 80 lbs. You'll know because the air gauge stops falling, or it's that pressure you always find the bus at after it's been parked for awhile. Do test steps 2 and 3 at this lower pressure. Since it's down at half the proper pressure, it cannot be used as a reliable test, but it will show if you have bigger problems. If the air pressure goes all away, you won't be able to figure out what degree of safety you have without getting under there and starting to find the leaking parts. And also suspect the PPV as failed too. Note to all: the PPV is what saves your bum and keeps some air in the brake circuits if you have a suspension failure while underway. Does yours work? If there are smaller leaks at some point in these three steps, you have to decide whether the leaks are a safety threat or not. Worst case level: With engine on and idling, parking brake released and brake pedal held to the floor, if the air compressor cannot keep up with the leaks, the enforcement types will pull the plates off. A note of caution: Leaks in rubber parts rarely get better, they only get worse, and sometimes at an alarming rate! Rubber parts: every brake valve seal, diaphragms in parking and service brakes, hoses to brake chambers. Which rubber parts are leaking under there? Are you sure? Checking Air compressor build-up time: If the leaks are under control, build up the air system, lower the air pressure to below 85lbs. Idle the engine and time the compressor to see how long it takes to build from 85 to 100lbs. A good compressor will do it in about 45 seconds. If it takes more than 2 minutes, it's no good. Brake action at the wheels: It would be prudent to make sure that the brake parts at all the wheels are moving in a coach that has been abandonned, as it sounds like this one has. Just get down on one knee and watch while someone else takes all the brake controls through their paces, both parking and service. hope this helps put your mind at ease, no matter what the outcome! happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Bradd B. Smith (216.18.141.41) Rating: N/A |
Hi, I don't know how framiliar you are with this type vehicle, but 11 miles could become a very long distance. Your not driving a car or truck that has set for a long time, but a very large complicated set of systems. Safety should be your PRIMARY concern. Not only yours, but the folks you pass on the road. This is in addition to any passengers you have onboard. Have you ever driven a coach? Experimenting with one that has sat and you know so little about may not be the best maiden voyage. In my honest opinion, I would have it towed the 11 miles. This would be much safer, and if there is water in the oil, it may save your engine. Then have ALL the systems checked and all the fluids changed. Condensation is a real factor. It would be a shame to smash up your new found prize. I know the temptation to just let her rip is great. However, a little prudence now, may lead to years of satisfaction. Getting in a hurry may cost you an engine or even something more dear. It is 5000. to 8000. to rebuild a Detroit if it isn't ruined, could be more if your core is shot. Clutches and transmissions are not cheap either. FWIW, Bradd | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A |
RC, here's a copy of an excellent article I downloaded "somewhere"...truthfully I don't even remember where. I keep a copy for reference on my drive.... From what I hear, using WD-40 is a better bet than ether. I've not personally been there yet so it's just hearsay... I like the idea of an engine heater a lot more than either of the two chemicals. But the following certainly tells all concerning ether... Cheers Gary ............. Starting Fluids: What You Need To Know Did you happen to notice that I capped and bolded the NO ETHER when I was priming the fuel system to get the engine started? We need to look at the myths and facts about this stuff. I'll bet I have heard every possible myth there is and I know I have seen this stuff misused many, many times. I've done it myself, more times than I would like to admit to. The question I need to ask, is, "have you ever locked a diesel up using this stuff?" If you honestly answer yes, you are guilty of diesel destruction 101. Let's see how the stuff works. When you start a diesel, compression has to raise the air temperature to approx. 500 to 700 degrees F. otherwise; the fuel will not ignite when it is injected into the cylinder. All you will get is cold (white) smoke. Depending on the concentration of Ethyl Ether, in the brand you are using, this volatile chemical, will ignite about 300 degrees F. If you listen to the engine, you can tell when the ether fires and when the fuel fires. A light one first, then the heavy knock when the fuel fires. When used properly, this is a helpful aid. Unfortunately...you know the rest. Lab time again. This will be a visual exercise. Hopefully, you didn't spill the fuel in the freezer during the last experiment. If your arms and hands are not in a cast, go get a soup can from the cabinet. Make a 90-degree angle with your arm out in front of you, so you can move it up and down. Put the soup can in you hand so it can represent a piston. Rotate your arm so your elbow would represent the circular motion (counter-clockwise) of the crankshaft. We have to imagine we have a piston in the cylinder. Take your other hand and hold it above the "piston". Imagine the injector is on the left side of the piston and the two fingers represent the engines' valves. The intake valve will be the finger closest to the injector. Do a couple of cycles to get the intake, compression; power and exhaust strokes worked out. Got it down? Forget the fact that your family is looking at you as if you really are certifiable! Here we go... As the piston is traveling up on the compression stroke, at about 2/3 of the upstroke, the ignition temperature of the ether is reached. This will cause the piston to cock (Tilt the can towards the injector.) in the cylinder. This action, no matter how slight inside the cylinder, exposes the piston rings on the side away from the injector. As the ether ignites, the pressure and temperature in the cylinder quickly rise. crank keeps moving the piston up in the bore at The same time, also helping the temperature and pressure to rise. When the fuel is injected, the fuel detonates instead of having a progressive flame front. The severe rise in pressure has a bad effect on the exposed rings and piston ring lands. If you have enough ether to lock the engine up, this rapid pressure rise of the ether violently stops the travel of the crankshaft. Don't forget that cranking speed is about 200 RPM. This sudden stop is not a good thing for main and rod bearings, timing gears or flywheel bolts. The original cause of many engine failures is proven to be from the improper use of ether. More spun bearings and scored cylinder walls start with improper use of starting fluids than ANY other cause. It can be easily proven once the teardown is done. A myth that needs dispelled. "You'll wash down the cylinder walls." It enters the cylinder as a gas. If it were a liquid, you would cause a hydraulic lock of the cylinder. A bent or broken rod would result. Oil in the cylinder walls will not be effected unless a truly huge amount of it is used in a short period. Try a case at once... now you have a liquid entering the cylinder. It is a rather great and aromatic parts cleaner externally. However, it doesn't quite work that way internally. In the future, let us use the following three rules. * Only give ether to an engine that is turning over. Not a static one! * Use just enough to get the engine lit off. NO MORE. * Do not prime fuel systems with starting fluids The iron you save will be your own... | ||
| Mike Eades (Mike4905) (206.148.164.229)
Rating: N/A |
I think if you walk into a DMV and ask for a CDL manual. You will read the proper way to check your air system and if get used to doing it every time you fire up your coach, you will end up felling a lot more secure about what you are doing even if you don't get the lic. Mike4905 | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong) (24.127.74.29)
Rating: N/A |
Gary - That article is found on the "Antique Truck Club of America's" website in the features section: http://www.atca-inc.net Mike - Good point about picking up a CDL booklet at the local DMV. Buswarrior's comments are also very valid, and basically taken from similar sources. Beef - When you apply the service brake, there might or might not be a slight noise, but there should be a hiss sound when you release the brakes. Also, the parking/emergency brake should be a black or yellow knob somewhere on the dash. Most pull up to apply, push down to release. When pulling up to apply, you should hear a hiss sound. When releasing, be sure to cover the service brake while pushing down on the knob. Depending on the type of brake pods used, you may or may not have to give a full service brake application AFTER releasing the parking brake in order to release them. Then again, since the coach has been sitting, the brakes may not release: shoes may have rusted to the drums. . . Are we having fun yet?? RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| Beefmalone (Beefmalone) (67.33.237.170)
Rating: N/A |
well I'm hoping since it WAS driven up and down the road a few miles not that long ago (10 mos or so) that the brakes are apparently working ok. I don't remember if the hiss came during application of the brake or after releasing, but I think it was after letting off the pedel (I hope anyway!). | ||
| R.C.Bishop (128.123.221.135)
Rating: N/A |
Thanx, Gary.......appreciate the extra effort. I attempted the article, RJ, but could not get past the Home Page. RCB | ||
| Scott Whitney (66.82.9.30) Rating: N/A |
It is very likely that the thing has no parking brakes (spring, DD3 etc.) at all except for the Johnson bar. My Flx is a 1974 and it had none. I had to have spring brakes installed aftermarket. To release the Johnson bar, engage the handle and push the bar away from you (if it was even set when parked). Seems to me my service brakes make a faint creaking noise as they are actuated hard and a whoosh sort of noise when you release. Been some time since I took notice of the noise they make . . . Scott | ||
| Bradd B. Smith (216.18.141.68) Rating: N/A |
RC, In the box on the top left of the home screen is a title marked features, it is in there, Several very informitive articles. HTH, Bradd | ||
| R.C.Bishop (128.123.221.135)
Rating: N/A |
Thanx, Bradd.........it did. RCB | ||
| Scott Whitney (66.82.9.15) Rating: N/A |
Beefmalone, What are the chances you'll get out to that mystery bus and have a gander at that engine this weekend? :^) Scott | ||
| Beefmalone (Beefmalone) (216.78.4.87)
Rating: N/A |
As a matter of fact I'm going out there Sunday to check it out. :D I'll take the digicam and post pics that night. Dan | ||
| Frank Zsitvay (207.173.124.173)
Rating: N/A |
I seem to remember most old Flxible coaches having driveline parking brakes. Using ether to start a cold Detroit is an approved practice, according to Pacific Detroit Diesel/Allison in Kent, WA. Naturally, anything in excess is bound to be bad. |