| Author | Message | ||
| L James Jones Jr (Jamo)
Registered Member Username: Jamo Post Number: 68 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 74.79.238.190  Rating: N/A |
Hi All, My starter has not been right the last few times I've tried to start the bus. The batt's (two, 1-1/2 yr old 8-D's) are fully (?) charged. I will be cleaning every ground & lead around the batt's & starter. Looks like the starter ground might be showing signs of corrosion. So...my latest attempts, the starter would roll over & then stop, then roll again. Sometimes it would not roll over at all. The last time, the bendix (??) kept running until I was able to give it a whack with an alum pipe. Problem is, it smoked out of the starter vent holes on the right side. Bad smeeling smoke...like burning rubber. From the rear starting control, it seems to roll on quicker, but still not right. Even when it rolls over well, it will not fire...with unburnt fuel smoke coming from the exhaust. Any ideas as to where to start? Thanks Folks... Jamo | ||
| George M. Todd (George_mc6)
Registered Member Username: George_mc6 Post Number: 894 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 76.171.79.185 Rating: N/A |
Jamo, We'll have to do a lot of guessing here without more info, but here goes. 1. A starter that continues to run after the switch is released, and stops after a blow, means the solenoid contacts are bad, and were welded closed. 2. Trying to start better from the back than the front means more voltage on the solenoid due to a shorter run of wire in the start circuit. 3. White vapor means the engine isn't being turned fast enough, which means low batts, high resistance connection(s), bad solenoid, or bad starter. So, unbolt every cable connection, batts, hots, grounds, and clean them first. Then, if it doesn't go, we're going to need voltage readings with a digital meter. It smells like you have starter or solenoid damage now, and the problem may have been a high resistance ground. We're also kind of stuck, not knowing what the battery voltage was at the beginning... G | ||
| L James Jones Jr (Jamo)
Registered Member Username: Jamo Post Number: 69 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 74.79.238.190 Rating: N/A |
Hi George, Thanks much for the info. I'm doing the terminals & connections now. The main starter ground, although extremely beefy, looks to be bad at the ends w/corrosion & some broken strands of wire. I had the batt's charged, or so I thought, with my charger. It was showing (on the charger) 10v before I started charging. When charging, I left the batt's connected & charged from pos on one batt to neg on the other. That's OK, right? I did not disconnect the batt's from the bus. The 300a high boost will roll her over pretty well, but I do believe I have other issues. Back to the back of the bus with me and my greasy paws. Thanks & I'll check back shortly... Jamo | ||
| L James Jones Jr (Jamo)
Registered Member Username: Jamo Post Number: 71 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 74.79.238.190 Rating: N/A |
Hi George, Thanks much for the info. I'm doing the terminals & connections now. The main starter ground, although extremely beefy, looks to be bad at the ends w/corrosion & some broken strands of wire. I had the batt's charged, or so I thought, with my charger. It was showing (on the charger) 10v before I started charging. When charging, I left the batt's connected & charged from pos on one batt to neg on the other. That's OK, right? I did not disconnect the batt's from the bus. The 300a high boost will roll her over pretty well, but I do believe I have other issues. Back to the back of the bus with me and my greasy paws. Thanks & I'll check back shortly... Jamo | ||
| L James Jones Jr (Jamo)
Registered Member Username: Jamo Post Number: 72 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 74.79.238.190 Rating: N/A |
Ooops, sorry about the double post. I tried to edit (delete) and it says the post cannot be deleted because it's more than 0 minutes old. Jeez, Ian, I wasn't that fast even in my younger days... | ||
| Patrick levenson (Zubzub)
Registered Member Username: Zubzub Post Number: 99 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 64.229.56.238  Rating: N/A |
I pulled the starter from my 04, dressed the commuter surface, opened the bendix cleaned and lubed all as per the manual, 2 hrs max start to finish, in full sun in a parking lot. Went from no start to no problem. Your problem may be worse but you would be amazed at what a little maintenance will do to these old bits....one of the reasons I love my '04. | ||
| Frank Radosti (Frank4104)
Registered Member Username: Frank4104 Post Number: 32 Registered: 8-2006 Posted From: 64.80.137.250  Rating: N/A |
10/4 on that pat | ||
| Mel La Plante (Mel_4104)
Registered Member Username: Mel_4104 Post Number: 126 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 99.199.160.182 Rating: N/A |
for you other fellows that aee lucky enough to have a 4104 the big killer for them not starting is POOR connections mainly the grounds to the AL bulk head where the ground from the motor connects. clean all your connections and use diolectic grease between the connector and tha AL bulk head to stop corrosion. the other thing is the old style starters do not trun the engine over very fast and the faster you can spin it the easier they start, so the answer to that is find one that is the new type and change the nose piece to the type that allows different spots for the sel. to be when remounted. the nose piece on the newer type look different than the old style, when you get a starter be sure it has CCW on the plate this means it will spin counter clock wise.a good place to get one is off a new look GM bus even if it off a v6 motor. | ||
| larry currier (Larryc)
Registered Member Username: Larryc Post Number: 240 Registered: 2-2007 Posted From: 64.12.116.203 Rating: N/A |
Sounds like low voltage to me. Charge the batterys seperately and use the jumper cables to go from a battery ground to the - post on the starter to see if that wakes it up. The jumper from the positive on the solenoid to the inside of the starter sometimes works loose, so check that too. If nothing else, check the brushes, they may be getting a little short. Smoke out the plug holes on the starter ain't good, brushes are likely etching their way into the armature, they are either gone or its low voltage. | ||
| Wec4104 (Wec4104)
Registered Member Username: Wec4104 Post Number: 55 Registered: 7-2008 Posted From: 68.80.242.72 Rating: N/A |
About a week or so ago I was flipping through my 4104's Maintenance manual. In the section on Lubrication, it mentions there are three locations on the 4104's starter that require periodic oil. (News to me.) I have to admit I have never considered this one of the lube points. Maybe I just figured that anything near the bottom of a DD 2 stroke just naturally sees it's share of oil. Have any of you noticed this in the manual, or ever oiled the starter? | ||
| L James Jones Jr (Jamo)
Registered Member Username: Jamo Post Number: 73 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 74.79.238.190 Rating: N/A |
Well, I cleaned every terminal I could find within the last 10 feet of bus. Some were not good. The main ground from the starter was bolted to former pivot thing...with paint still on it! Aso, after grinding, filing, & wire brushing (and charging the batt's with them disconnected) all is good. Funny how easy the stuff in the engine compartment is to work on. No PB Blaster necessary, all is well lubed. So...should I be looking for a used starter? I'm sure mine is on borrowed time and I wouldn't mind having a "spare" along for the ride. Anyone have one for sale that is rebuildable? I'm thinking I'd be interested... Thanks for the help...you folks are the best... Jamo | ||
| Mel La Plante (Mel_4104)
Registered Member Username: Mel_4104 Post Number: 127 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 154.5.116.227 Rating: N/A |
Jamo it is a good idea to carry a spare, as stated above get one of the new type and put it on your engine and then carry old one as a spare, they give you nothing for your old as a core and you sure do not want ot spend the money reairing the old type. then again you might have deep pockets. it is too bad you do not list a phone # on your profile or i would have called you and described in more detail about changing out the old starter. mine is on my profile if any of you want to call, i will try ot help. mel 4104 | ||
| Jim Gibson (River_rat)
Registered Member Username: River_rat Post Number: 129 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 75.95.96.192 Rating: N/A |
I had bad connections stop me once - it was the batt side on the starter itself - the selonoid would click, but no starter. I just finished doing my battery cables and box. Removed everything, pressure washed and scrubbed, baking soda to neutralize everything, dry, and then rubber coated the box. I replaced all the cables and connector, soldered and crimped and used the sealing shrink. Replaced the ground lugs and added the spikey lock washers do get a better ground. Looks great and should be good for a few more years! Jim | ||
| L James Jones Jr (Jamo)
Registered Member Username: Jamo Post Number: 74 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 74.79.238.190 Rating: N/A |
Mel, Good point & thanks. I just added my phone number to my profile. As for my (new or old?) starter, it does not look like the one shown in the manual. No exposed arm to engage from the bendix...kind of a cylinder thing with a rubber boot. BTW: my pockets are very deep, bu that's only because of the holes in them. Don't jingle as much as they used to. Would Luke be the best place to go for a new style starter?? Actively search for used? I hate to think of the cost, but if I wanted a cheap bus ride, I'd buy a ticket. Thanks again to all of you for your help... Jamo | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 1134 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 68.26.115.32  Rating: N/A |
For a replacement starter, I would check with local starter rebuilders. Jack | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1544 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9  Rating: N/A |
Check that little relay in the voltage regulator box. If those contacts stick, the starter will keep cranking; It is small with a black cover. Replace it, don't try to file it. It isn't expensive enough to fool with. It could be silver if it is the old one. While you are at it, check and clean BOTH sides of that engine bulkhead electrical fitting. You'll probably need to get underneath to get at the other side. Don't forget the blocking. BTW, your shop manual should show the location of that and all the other relays on the coach. | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 944 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 206.40.238.134  Rating: N/A |
In your first post you mentioned corrosion in the gnd cable. Do not ignore this, very old cables can corrode internally quite a distance from the fitting.These can be quickly checked with a good ohmeter. John is right about the starter relay. This is the first place I look when I have starting problems because it is so fragile and so prone to corrosion of the tiny terminals. Sometimes all you have to do is unplug and replug the wires to make things better. | ||
| L James Jones Jr (Jamo)
Registered Member Username: Jamo Post Number: 75 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 74.79.238.190 Rating: N/A |
So... Where should I be grounding my starter? As I said, the existing ground goes to the welded on "tab" at the far left rear corner of the engine bay. Looks to be an old pivot point for some long gone part?? If grounding to another area is best, I'll get a new longer cable. What guage should I be using? I'm done assuming existing stuff is the right stuff. Lots of cobb's so far. Thanks.... Jamo | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 952 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 206.40.238.161 Rating: N/A |
I'm not sure I fully understand your ground point but it sounds like it is grounded to the body. The starter is best grounded first to the engine and then the engine to the body, at least this is the way most are originally set up from the factory. | ||
| Austin Scott Davis (Zimtok)
Registered Member Username: Zimtok Post Number: 346 Registered: 9-2006 Posted From: 216.37.73.226  Rating: N/A |
Has it been determined if it is positive or negative ground? . |