| Author | Message | ||
| Darrell Black, DVM (Darrelldvm)
Registered Member Username: Darrelldvm Post Number: 38 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 209.78.171.84 Rating: N/A |
Where is the best place to put an air dehydrator on a 4106? Also, what model is recommended with 12V heater? What is used for the new air line and where do you splice into the exsisting system? | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 893 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.195.234.106  Rating: N/A |
One again a simple question is WHY? Dehydrators are great , but go read the MFG. annual service requirements , OK for a 200,000 mile truck) but a hassle and expense for a 20,000 mile (or far less ) bus camper. The jar of Alcohol on your Sportscar will need to be kept full any time the outside air temp will get below 40F. A few bucks a Quart, once or twice a year at the truck stop VS yet more ongoing maint. Da Book for your coach has a good sized maint list that needs love every 1500! miles . Doesn't that keep you busy enough? Are you going to AK in winter? FF | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1571 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9  Rating: N/A |
Forget alcohol! Bendix doesn't recommend using it anymore. Air driers don't need serviced as often in our coaches, since we don't put on that many miles. My 04 has it installed to the lower left of the radiator looking at the front of the radiator. The lower piece of side panel was cut and hinged, allowing easy servicing when needed. Nice not to have moisture in the brake system anymore. You service it if you see moisture from a tank drain. This may be 5 or more years till service is needed. That water in the system causes problems with pot metal corrosion or debris build up from lengthy periods of time from sitting. DO make sure your air compressor is in decent condition; if it is blowing a lot of oil past the rings, it will make short life of the dessicant in the drier. Also make sure to purge all the air tanks of any residual oil before hooking up the drier. Drain tanks and leave drains open for a couple of days to allow all the oil clinging to sides of tanks to drain out. Might want do do this a couple of times first. After installing your drier, you may see a little moisture till the system is completely purged of moisture. Could take a couple hundred miles depending on how often the compressor cycles. | ||
| niles steckbauer (Niles500)
Registered Member Username: Niles500 Post Number: 941 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 173.78.29.189 Rating: N/A |
If you are installing an Air Dryer - You need to install it in accordance with the MFG instructions - there are certain distances from the compressor/governor that must be kept, etc. - HTH | ||
| Darrell Black, DVM (Darrelldvm)
Registered Member Username: Darrelldvm Post Number: 39 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 209.78.171.84 Rating: N/A |
FF, I've had my air lines freeze-up three times: Once @ -17, once @ -4 and once at 12 degrees. I don' have the automatic "spitters" and I'm not very good at remembering to drain my tanks. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 898 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.195.234.106 Rating: N/A |
"I don' have the automatic "spitters" and I'm not very good at remembering to drain my tanks." Tank draining was orig done in a pit, lacking the pit , for about $6.00 each a chain pull allows the drill without going under the bus . 4? tanks , $25 bucks still cheaper than the moisture replenishment can for the "spitter". Like lube oil the air dryer must be changed on TIME , not simply on miles run. HARD to miss below zero temps , time to add a bit to the old alky jar. FF | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1574 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9 Rating: N/A |
Fred, READ the info on the Bendix site for their air drier. Service every so many months or miles or AS NEEDED.Btw my coach had those chain operated drains and one developed a pinhole near the bottom. Who would have figured that? Took a while to find it as never figured they would be a problem. No moisture; no freezing to worry about. Alcohol should be drunk? not wasted in your coach  How many trucks on the road with air brakes use air driers? How many use alcohol? But, do it your way. | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1664 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.71.102.166  Rating: N/A |
If you have run out of things to spend ca$h on, then go for the air drier. FF is pointing out that the way the coach came equipped from the factory will work quite satisfactorily at no greater cost in time or funds. Bendix has reversed their position on using alcohol in the air system primarily because in a modern system, the compromise of rinsing the lube from the valving during the cold months is no longer necessary. The lube always rinsed out, and we just put up with it, as what choice was there? Now that we are some 40 years into the experience and development of air driers, if a system is properly maintained, Bendix figures there is no need to anti-freeze it. Fine in theory and practice in the lower 48, but you better not head up here and beyond to the north without some in there someplace. Busnuts brake valving is going to be sticky from age and non-use regardless of the presence of alchohol or not. Another good reason to take the coach for a drive once a month, to keep things moving. If you have sticking valves, crack open the supply port to your major valves and let rip with the spray lube of your choice NOT one with solvents in it. Pump the brakes a few times, see the spray out the exhausts, trouble gone. Don't mix up your alcohols....!!!! happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1575 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9 Rating: N/A |
If air driers were factory installed in 04's back then, we wouldn't have to plate the beams from the pinholes; that moisture in that area isn't going to be removed by draining the tanks. Of course, they didn't use air driers then. Don't know if they were invented back then. | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong)
Registered Member Username: Rjlong Post Number: 1591 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 98.192.173.82  Rating: N/A |
John - IMU that more of the pinholes in the air beams comes from years of wet road crud being slung up into that area from the wheels. Rots from the outside in, not vice versa. OTOH, it's probably a combination of both! FWIW & HTH. . . | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 901 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.195.234.106 Rating: N/A |
"How many trucks on the road with air brakes use air driers? How many use alcohol? Apples and oranges , most trucks are less than 10 years old ." Most of our coaches are 30 to 50 years old. "Upgrading" any system by 40 years may or may not be worth much effort,as simply being "modern" sure doesn't make it better. Or should I look for an EGR setup and Urea exhaust system in your bus camper? "Service every so many months or miles or AS NEEDED" Usually BOTH limits MUST be observed ,(not just the one you decide works best for you) if one limit is "time in service" , even with Zero miles , the part must be replaced on TIME alone . But, do it your way. FF | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 381 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 69.77.145.30 Rating: N/A |
The air beams in my '04 were/are protected on the inside with some tar like coating (NOT oil). I don't think they rust out from interior moisture. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1577 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9 Rating: N/A |
Yeah Fred, why go for that series 50, just because it is new technology...... Don't forget to go for an air drier while you are at it. Forget Jake brakes and Maxi's too. Bendix and GM recommend to service all the air system components in YOUR coach pretty regularly. CHECK YOUR DA BOOK. Do you follow THAT? No you don't. You rebuild/ repair as needed. Yes, air driers aren't cheap, but they do keep air systems clean and in good condition and eliminate moisture moisture. | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1578 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9 Rating: N/A |
Yeah Fred, why go for that series 50, just because it is new technology...... Don't forget to go for an air drier while you are at it. Forget Jake brakes and Maxi's too. Bendix and GM recommend to service all the air system components in YOUR coach pretty regularly. CHECK YOUR DA BOOK. Do you follow THAT? No you don't. You rebuild/ repair as needed. Yes, air driers aren't cheap, but they do keep air systems clean and in good condition and eliminate moisture. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 902 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.195.234.106 Rating: N/A |
"Yeah Fred, why go for that series 50, just because it is new technology......" Actually the coach swop is being done because our cruising / camping STYLE , and therefore coach requirements have changed.. I would be far happier if a Ser 50 was ALL mechanical injection , rather than an electric monster. Jake AND retarder are on the list for Western boat towing . "Bendix and GM recommend to service all the air system components in YOUR coach pretty regularly. CHECK YOUR DA BOOK." Probably the old service every 1500 miles the Sportscar book requires will still be the drill on the VL. On a VL the only air user is the brakes , so the wait to air up is seconds , not the 2-3 min usually needed.Since the donor bus had a dryer , the VL will get its dryer, but it will be SERVICED (as always) by what DA Book Sez , not what I would care to read into it. "Do you follow THAT? No you don't. You rebuild/ repair as needed." Sorry you have me confused with someone else., my working background was in air craft ,ontime service , PM and following Da Book was LAW , as well as common sense. There is no "Towing Service" or side of the road at FL 390. FF (Message edited by FAST FRED on July 30, 2009) | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 258 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.232  Rating: N/A |
boys, boys , let us not take the constructive criticism personally, it inhibits your true potential to share on the threads, please. It is fine to consider & enact upgrades if one can afford them, but they often come with several compromises and that is why we are trying to discover. Hopefully with others being encouraged to reciprocate, that info sharing & the buses are our common thread, right ? Please consider scribing that notion onto a post-it-note and consider sticking that on the corner of your keyboard! There is far more at stake than just our feelings of difference in this passion to make the buses survive. But do compete if you must, if that is at times your way, I will still continue to read the good info between your lines, hopefully reciprocating in my own way. This is what friends are about ! | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1580 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9 Rating: N/A |
Fred , read section 4b of your maintenance book. Remove, disassemble, clean, inspect. " intervals given in the following maintenance chart must be related to the type of operation in which a particular vehicle is used. Intervals given are manufacturers recommendations and should be considered as maximum periods. Maintenance operations at shorter intervals are preferable to longer intervals." Short interval for air drier is 400 hrs., 25,000 miles, or 3 months. Brake chamber is 3600 hrs, 100,000 miles, or 1 year. Most of the other brake components short time to R, D, C, and I is 6 months to 1 year. Who takes these items off their coach at these short intervals? Probably only Fred. Most do this when they have a problem with the component. Common sense would be somewhere in between. This is probably more critical to make sure everything is up to snuff like in an aircraft or when you only have an ICC brake for emergency stopping. How do you know the air drier needs serviced? You start getting moisture out of the air tank drains, or it develops an air leak. The point is that they are reliable and very desirable to some operators of conversions, just like Jake brakes, misting systems, Maxi-brakes, series 50's, automatics, automatic slack adjusters, etc. Other things are cheaper, simpler, etc., just like the hand crank for the engine. You keep your hand crank- I'll take my air drier and recommend it's benefits. Nuff said! | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1665 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.69.141.94 Rating: N/A |
If you wait to see moisture in the tanks to do the PREVENTIVE maintenance on your air drier where there is actually a winter, you have already screwed up. You have already let moisture into the system. A small lick of moisture on a valve seat puts it all on the side of the road. And if you have pneumatics in the transmission somewhere, with those really small signal lines.... You let the air drier reach the point of failure before servicing it at your peril. These manufacturer recommended schedules are intended to keep the vehicle in proper working order, all the time, with lots of reliable miles AHEAD of the present. Why don't we leave the oil and filter in the engine until it shows some signs of needing some work? If you live south, then do whatever you want with your air drier, but don't fool a newbie northern busnut into thinking the air drier can be ignored. Generally, there are some items that due to advances in materials/technology, that were not even dreamed of at the time of our manuals being written, that we may safely extend some categories of preventive maintenance, rubber components in particular, a little with lubricants. These decisions need to be based on reading good documentation from reliable sources, not words typed onto a BBS. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1666 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.69.141.94 Rating: N/A |
And, with all this BS, the original poster still doesn't have some help on where to install his air drier in a 4106. Come on busnuts, where do you install your air drier in a 4106 so it has enough pipe between it and the compressor? happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 272 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.232 Rating: N/A |
+++ in all "detailedness" bigdoubleFF (second from the start)has not had his good & relevant leading question about application answered, to enable a pinpoint reply & possible effective alternatives... the most inclusive truth comprehensible is the best way, in the prospective terms of archived quality ! | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 273 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.232 Rating: N/A |
++ I am referring to "are you not busy enough" as in priority of modifications when the original equipment might be adequate when wayed against frequency of expected applications. + My humble apology for the ambiguity; but the distraction of $work$ calls me away from what I should be doing, this!!! | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 500 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 72.147.34.96  Rating: |
Automatic air dryers have nice features, but they bring with them a cost. Good to understand how these costs present themselves. Good also to have alternatives to choose from. Personally, I like the immediate feedback I get from draining my tanks after every trip. The walk around inspection at every stop is something most do not perform adequately if at all. These inspections reveal much & minimize unplanned roadside delays. The results of neglected proper maintenance (from the "service intervals in Da-Book don't apply to me" crowd) show up in the way of roadside maladies & some catastrophic failures. The recommended service intervals are to ensure highest chances for minimizing unscheduled repairs at unknown locations. Treating heavy vehicle maintenance with ignorant contempt is a recipe for inconvience at best, fatalities at worst. Using something for 1 percent of its intended duty cycle doesn’t mean it is prudent to do less than 100 percent of the recommended maintenance. If everyone kept up with all of the required maintenance on their buses, there wouldn’t be an initial negative stigma associated with an old bus. On another thread, someone found fault with a driveline brake because if the shoes were oil soaked from a seal failure . . . . . There is something bad wrong when equipment is faulted even though proper maintenance would have prevented/fixed the problem. FF’s initial post was excellent in that he asked a question that leads to higher understanding of the whole system – not blindly following the sheep in front. When I started ‘hot rodding’ my first car, the best advice I got was “before you change anything from stock, you need to understand why the factory did it the way they did.” Listening to that has saved me from repeating some of the mistakes of others . . . . . | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1581 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9 Rating: N/A |
here you go http://www.bendixvrc.com /itemDisplay.asp?documentID=4634 https://www.anythingtruck.com/commercial/airb_airdryer-ad9function.mv http://www.bendixvrc.com/itemDisplay.asp?documentID=5091 | ||
| Kyle Brandt (Kyle4501)
Registered Member Username: Kyle4501 Post Number: 501 Registered: 9-2004 Posted From: 72.147.34.96 Rating: N/A |
Yep, they sure do sound nice . . . . on paper on a well maintained vehicle. All things considered, for my needs, I won't see any net benefit from adding one. To each their own . . . YMMV | ||
| hiwaycallin (Hiwaycallin)
Registered Member Username: Hiwaycallin Post Number: 49 Registered: 10-2007 Posted From: 208.98.220.84  Rating: N/A |
$259 doesn't sound too bad. https://www.anythingtruck.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Category_Code=HTP-AIRDRY&P roduct_Code=060-065225 Is this all that is needed or are there additional parts? | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 280 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.232 Rating: N/A |
.my MC-8 has a old style dryer added in by the front air tanks, it is in need of identification , repair and maintenance, as well as my education. It also still has the whiskey bottle in the engine compartment , near the compressor. While I understand you must NOT use the alcohol with the descant, as it will turn it to sludge upon saturation; perhaps I could remove the desiccant cartridge , in a cold pinch, ( if I was unable to get parts) and default to the alcohol. Could I ? Any specialize knowledge on this notion. ..I once had the spitter valve freeze open on the bottom of the dryer, allowing the air to gush out (what I assume is the power wire to a electric element is dangling near by , but no electrical tit on the dryer to be found . My roadside solution was to get under there with a propane torch & carefully warm up the dryer, worked fine after that.. ...Ah the cool days in Canada, almost a chariest memory during this 110 degree desert summer in the valley bottom; IF ONLY the bus was up to going boon docking in the coolier highlands... | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1668 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.68.122.103 Rating: N/A |
Hello truthhunter. The air drier needs to have its heater wire connected, you have identified the Achilles heel, the purge valve will stick/freeze in the purge position, blocking air build up, and in many cases, not even hissing to give you an indication of why the air won't build. The air line between compressor and air drier has climbed to the point where the compressor can't raise the pressure any further, as the governor is calling for air. Adding alcohol to the wet tank, via a retrofitted shop air chuck - male with quarter turn valve, and a motorboat fuel bulb line with matching female connection, takes care of a suspected damp system without polluting the drier via the stock alcohol evaporator in the engine room. Still doesn't fix an air drier with no working heater element. This alcohol flooding would be an aggressive offence against poor maintenance when already trapped in winter conditions, not a common busnut environment. I think I wrote a bunch on this when Nellie was having problems last winter. There's quite a difference from what you are forced to do to make it work when you are screwed in the depths of winter, to what you should be doing in the way of maintenance to prevent having to flood the system with alcohol in the first place. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 284 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.232 Rating: N/A |
.guess I will find the element or where it should be & it's electical tab when I finally service the dryier . Thanks for the post dryier tip BW, that is good "macyver" thinking form the north. |
