| Author | Message | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 952 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.18  Rating: |
This morning I got a 400+ volt AC shock by touching my bus and a metal pipe at a dump station at the same time. It woke me up enough to want to share it with other large-metal-RV owners (such as bus nuts). The whole story is posted over on my blog here: http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com/2009/07/shocking-experience-at-dump-station.html -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 566 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.53.155.14  Rating: N/A |
I am glad you weren't hurt Sean however I think your jolt woke you up a little more HUMMMMM Gomer | ||
| Roger Dalke (Roger_d)
Registered Member Username: Roger_d Post Number: 17 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 205.206.150.217 Rating: N/A |
Could this be avoided by grounding the bus? (like they do to aircraft while refueling) I've seen many dump stations with wires above them. | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 953 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.18 Rating: N/A |
Yes, of course. But one seldom thinks to ground a bus when using the dump station. Also, making the ground connection after already being parked under the high voltage lines could be a rather sobering experience in itself. The source of electricity that one is concerned with when refueling is static -- the fuel itself running through plastic and rubber lines can create quite a charge, and without the ground connection to dissipate it, you can get a spark, which could ignite the fuel. But there is no potential difference (voltage) before fueling is started, so no concerns about making the ground connection then. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior)
Registered Member Username: Buswarrior Post Number: 1663 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 76.71.103.16  Rating: N/A |
Oh WOW! Every once in a while, one's extensive knowledge of theories comes in handy! Glad you're able to faithfully report your findings. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Peter River (Whitebus)
Registered Member Username: Whitebus Post Number: 137 Registered: 4-2009 Posted From: 204.62.111.51  Rating: N/A |
is that why I see transit buses dragging a strip on the ground? learning something new everyday round here... | ||
| William Garamella (Nh_wanderer)
Registered Member Username: Nh_wanderer Post Number: 19 Registered: 11-2008 Posted From: 24.62.162.30  Rating: N/A |
Sean, Thanks for sharing this. I hope you don't mind, I posted this and a link to your blog at the Wanderlodge Forums. This reminds me of a freighting experience I had while working bridge construction when I was about 20 years old. I was assisting a crane operator that was relocating a portable compressor to another part of the bridge deck. My job was to keep it from spinning on the hook. As he was moving the boom and I was steading the compressor, the boom came within arching distance of a high line. The next thing I knew, I woke up flat on my back with some guys standing around me. The crane operator had a smirk on his face. That was enough for me, I walked off the job never to return. NH Bill (Message edited by Nh_wanderer on July 28, 2009) (Message edited by Nh_wanderer on July 28, 2009) | ||
| Jim Wallin (Powderseeker01)
Registered Member Username: Powderseeker01 Post Number: 30 Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 208.68.48.77  Rating: N/A |
quote: Could this be avoided by grounding the bus? Certainly. But as this field is already present when the bus arrives, you'd likely see quite an arc during the grounding process depending on how quickly your bus ( a virtual capacitor) charges. The dragging ground would be a better option in cases like this. Jim | ||
| Chuck Newman (Chuck_newman)
Registered Member Username: Chuck_newman Post Number: 385 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 99.153.84.192  Rating: N/A |
Sean, Glad you're still here to tell the tale. This is more serious than stated to anyone using this dump. "Just then, I noticed that we were right under some high-tension lines." Were the lines on 30' to 40' telephone poles which would be 12KV lines? Or were they supported by dual 80' T braced wood or steel towers = 115KV or 230KV? And, what was the line clearance spacing to the bus? I have seen 230KV EMF fields induce voltage into line trucks on the ground, depending on the line clearance. What an interesting study this incident would be. Westworld won't know what to do, but at a minimum it should be reported to the area power company. It will eventually kill someone. | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 251 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.219  Rating: N/A |
...& deer safety compliance officer (semi-ret.) don't forget to document if convenient for any possible faults induced into your body as well as EMP damage to the bus electronics that may appear in the near future (cascading I/C failures); as we all know the remedy for corporate denial is a good pail of sue(age)via strict liability under tort law. The life we save may be more important that even our own is, to the collective potential of U-all ! " Do it your way; as it is you retirement & should allow room for exercising your obvious passions". .thank you for surviving to bus another day. | ||
| David Guglielmetti (Daveg)
Registered Member Username: Daveg Post Number: 88 Registered: 2-2009 Posted From: 66.122.182.185  Rating: N/A |
Peter River-I think the thing that is dragging on the ground is a type of ground strap (rubber/carbon) that is for the prevention of static shock to passengers...that's what I think, of course I could be wrong. | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 252 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.232 Rating: N/A |
...affirmative here big D G. those straps arecintended to reduce static buildup/discharge reandomize the frequency in a attemp to reduce "motion sickens" for passenger comfort. Not saying it does not have the "capacity to change the electromagnetic interaction btwen the vessel and the medium it transends. Kind of obsolete since the introduction of steel belted tires in this regards, so I wouldn't purchase any stock in the corporations still flogging them; unless you intend to cash in on this solar systems re-emergence through the "galactic plane" (exact date of discharge event depends on inter-solar variables). | ||
| Mark Renner (Boomer)
Registered Member Username: Boomer Post Number: 175 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 75.210.147.151  Rating: N/A |
All new Prevosts for quite a few years have had the anti static strap. I was told by Prevost Tech that, as well as other things, it was to reduce electrical interference with the complex audio visual systems on board. I installed one on my coach, figured if it was good enough for Prevost....... I also heard, don't know if it's true or not, that it is state law in New Jersey. Anyone know for sure? | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 253 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.232 Rating: N/A |
My humble apology on my last post spelling errors, got interrupted while spell checking & one of the dogs must of helped by hitting the post button. I heard rumor about that NJ requirement spec. via MCI in winnipeg on a order way back, something about everything "being relative", including those doing the bus order specs. & those making the static ground straps. Only real problem that I had with them was a installation on a passenger car; after much searching for the random mystery thump from somewhere , a ride in the open trunk indicated the old stiff strap was randomly bouncing on the road and hitting the fuel tank. Other than that no stories of doing any harm. If the co-pilot keeps vomiting on the dash, give it a try, cheap experiment. I know some aircraft have static discharge technology employed, one might get some related technology eduction looking at that field. ...now where is that mark-B when a thread needs him ?... | ||
| Jim Wilke (Jim Bob) (Pd41044039)
Registered Member Username: Pd41044039 Post Number: 380 Registered: 2-2001 Posted From: 69.77.145.30 Rating: N/A |
I don't think steel belted tires discharge static. Everything we have sits on steel radials & we always get zapped, sometimes twice, while getting out of the car in winter. Can you make your own strap? Why wouldn't a piece of thin wire rope do the trick? Seems like that would be cheap enough to replace as needed. Hey, maybe that's why so many people drag their trailer safety chains 2000 miles!! | ||
| PA Doug (Padoug)
Registered Member Username: Padoug Post Number: 13 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 76.120.147.169 Rating: N/A |
Wouldn't a secondary ground be against code in an RV; as per Georges response to my post in the "More Electrical Q's" thread a couple weeks back? Though it is not staked into the earth, in a hookup situation, it would be viewed that way. Perhaps you would would want to retract it while parked and hooked up? Just asking... | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 254 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.232 Rating: N/A |
I "believe" the concept is to randomize the contact with the ground thereby randomizing the "discharged" frequency,voltage & current. So that "old drag the trailer safety chain" trick could work if carefully calibrated to just barely drag & bounce, but when you factor in tickets, replacement cost, fire from spark risk, broken windshields from those that follow; well seems a few bucks for a rubber, barium/stainless steel/rubber straps would be more economical. In dry winter weather the medium (dry less conductive atmosphere)your conductor (car/bus) transverses induces a higher potential ; under shallow geo-magnetosphere & excited northern light conditions it is often beyond those thick new winter tires ability to conduct. Not unlike thick carpet/wool socks make for a more shocking touches in the winter, but not so much in the summer. So if there is anyone hoping to cash in on the "exiting through the galactic plane planetary discharge" preparedness accessory market & the impending sales gold rush/scam, they might want to target there advertising at those driving on new tires , not worn out tires . ..Happily , my engine is MUI , so there is little concern of catastrophic electronic control failure from unusual high discharge events grinding my journey to a halt. As for any critical electronic such as this laptop, easily shielded against when needed. My main inverter charger is actually a computer mainframe "battery charger" UPS, so it has a higher level of protection than most systems,as does my 24 vdc APU (military surplus , spec to withstand a nuc EMP, perhaps they will survive if disconnected during "galactic storm" peaks (when most lighting strikes begin to go strait down without the usual forking ) ...Prepare to almost always be prepared, as them boy scouts should have said... (old space cadet phrase ?) | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 954 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 71.108.3.85 Rating: N/A |
I don't consider 12K to be "high tension." These were at least 230, maybe 450. Sorry, I did not measure their height. But note that they were probably hanging much lower than normal -- it was 108°, and these lines expand quite a bit when hot.
No. What needs to be avoided is more than one connection between neutral and ground. There is no proscription against grounding the chassis to earth. That being said, I advise against it, except in the limited circumstance where you are running items external to the coach from an on-board power supply such as a generator or inverter. Also, if you have a gasoline-powered coach, you might wish to ground the chassis to the dispenser while fueling. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 1137 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 70.6.199.246  Rating: N/A |
I remember when I was a child that our neighbors bulk fuel delivery truck had a length of chain attached to the frame that drug on the ground. I watched him replace the chain when it wore down to the point it was barely touching the ground. This truck delivered gasolene and diesel to local farmers. Jack | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 259 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.232 Rating: N/A |
...there are more effective conductors than rusty , loosely connected steel chain links, that pose less hazards than they solve... | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 260 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.232 Rating: N/A |
http://spaceweather.com/aurora/gallery_01jul09_page2.htm?PHPSESSID=9tus0t3o6m645vnlcolq9m1 d74 might just provide correlations to your shocking experience & give you a hint to solve your mystery safeteynazi. Think ... of the difference conductivity properties between dry air and the dry air in a ionized plasma field. I know what the local lighting storm was doing "unusually" where I was observing , when this solar storm was at its incursion phase. A "sign of the times" which I expect to "see" much more of ! p.s. as very please as I am that your still around to post; have you listed "cyclopes" in your will or living will with adequate provision to best ensure it will be preserved ? long live the safetynazi & his buses, may his knowledge be immortalized some how ! For that matter , have any of us ??? The journey is only half the fun, reaching the destination is the other half ! | ||
| PA Doug (Padoug)
Registered Member Username: Padoug Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 76.120.147.169 Rating: N/A |
>...long live the safetynazi & his buses, may his knowledge be immortalized some how ! For that matter , have any of us ??? The journey is only half the fun, reaching the destination is the other half !<< Ummm Clint? You didn't happen to come of age in the 60's and have a skoolie as your first bus, did you?? (Just kidding!) Nerdy Flower Children..Geeze, no wonder we had "Easy Rider"..LOL When I grew up, I learned the white pills were for making you love everybody, the black ones helped you sleep, the polkadot ones made you "artsy"(same as marajuana), and electricity was left for those who were locked up undergoing shock therapy. There may be a lesson here... | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 261 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.232 Rating: N/A |
. first bus was two electric street car trolleys from Winnipeg, which I modified into one deck & a halfer, which I towed behind my old armytruck (6x6) began this epeic in 1980 or so .. My age of reasoning clicked in around 1969, when I began to question what I was told to just believe; having had to reconstruct myself as best as I could since then, three times, due to rather extreme events (cann't you tell?) .Believe it or not, I am trying to standardize my some-what leading questions & comments, in the name of bettering our hobby , thanks for your undestanding & patients PAD ! | ||
| ED Hackenbruch (Shadowman)
Registered Member Username: Shadowman Post Number: 135 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 75.216.140.94 Rating: N/A |
PA Doug :>) | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 262 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.219 Rating: N/A |
and my point may be " always prepare to be prepared" http://www.upi.com/Emerging_Threats/2009/07/30/Iran-sends-warships-into-Gulf-of-Aden/UPI-4 0191248973200/ or that is my best guess as to what them space cadets might say, don't know being a bus nut and not a space cadet. hehe (-^ | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 263 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.219 Rating: N/A |
opps sorry wrong link , sorry ! may I try again http://www.reciprocaldestruction.inc.($<=>.com bus well, long live us bus restorers perhaps sirIan could remove that incorrect link above, when he has time. | ||
| Cullen Newsom (Cullennewsom)
Registered Member Username: Cullennewsom Post Number: 122 Registered: 2-2009 Posted From: 98.201.161.214  Rating: N/A |
Sean, I am surprised, and a little bit disappointed in you. Surely you knew that it is illegal to steal electricity via induction. ;o) -Cullen PS Thanks for that post. Glad it didn't leave a mark. | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 966 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.73.111  Rating: N/A |
Whew. And no mention of the fact that 90+% of all campers are non-metallic on the exterior and have little metal caging under the usual Fiberglas skin.. As a retiree of a major Telco, static electricity was a common factor at 20+ foot at the side of a pole. We simply grounded to the strand to remove the influence... I read and reread this thread, and still wonder why this should appear as a major issue. Amperage can kill.... was there enough? Or is all the fuss over static electricity, that very well might indicate a very high voltage capacity... but with no appreciable amperage. Just curious... | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 316 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.232 Rating: N/A |
...then discharge a little meteorological research into the mix & timing , only go a little higher than normal, like the lower edge of the Van Allen belt MCJAYNINE. You didn't even need to read between the lines to spot that one, I too am surprised, now ! & Please don't give me that old, no-body knows what causes those auroas, as that book's pages were all use up for rolling, long before flower power faded from the pages of the very same book. !!!just my way ; your's too fellow advocate??? | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean)
Registered Member Username: Sean Post Number: 956 Registered: 1-2003 Posted From: 67.142.130.39 Rating: N/A |
John, The electric field around a high-tension line is not "static electricity" -- that's something else entirely. I did not measure what amperage might have been produced through a body. But I know subjectively that it was pretty high. Note also that I explicitly mentioned "large metal RV's" in the very first post -- meaning "as opposed to the usual fiberglass RVs with little metal caging." And, yes, you can be seriously injured or even killed by the electric field surrounding a high tension line. -Sean http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com | ||
| John MC9 (John_mc9)
Registered Member Username: John_mc9 Post Number: 967 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.162.73.166 Rating: N/A |
Hi Sean - Re: "The electric field around a high-tension line is not "static electricity" -- that's something else entirely." As one that's felt the charge much to often, I can tell you that we can call it whatever we want to; it's unnerving just the same. As I said, we (pole climbers) usually would discharge to the strand (the stranded steel wire that the actual phone or TV cable is bound to). The strand is ground-bonded to the Electric company's ground (at each pole in some cases).. My comment wasn't to make light (pun intended) for your concern.. However.... A large, all metal, ungrounded vehicle comes with some caveats; your experience was one that many veteran commercial bus drivers are also aware of. Many a passenger has received a jolt boarding or exiting a bus while it's stopped at a bus stop under high tension lines; I have never had one die prior to paying their fare however, and most have gone on to live normal lives. To those that have experienced the phenomena fairly often, it does not manage to spark the frenzy of concern those "new to the circuit" might display. Let's face it, the carnage doesn't run rampant, and rarely (if ever) makes the news, but you are right.... no-one wants to be the 1 in a billion that manages to fry whilst dumping their waste tanks.... But it's handy to keep in mind, none-the-less. I just like things kept in the proper perspective. | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 318 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.232 Rating: N/A |
> & if you are that amongst those ones just shy of a billion who live on , but in MS like pain from the upset caused to the myelin layer in your spin from such frequent "static" discharge events may induce... perhaps try omgega 3 supplements (always with meals) or a high fish diet, after a few weeks you should notice a reduction in the mysterious systems. Seems modern food processing has remove most Omega 3 from our diet, modern miracles for you! Not being a line man , but been unfortunate enough to survive two lightning strikes , so it pained me to research as best I could. ...For what it may be worth to some that can not bus on these days, the way we like .... |
