| Author | Message | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1592 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9  Rating: N/A |
Since this comes up frequently and many don't get TNT, here are some contacts. Detroit Radiator Corp. 800-525-0011 Truck Radiators Denver, Penna. 800-874-6468 General Radiator Industries 800-336-2444 radiatorworks.com radiatorsupplyhouse.com If you contact any of these companies, make sure that they are not just middlemen. You really want to deal with one that actually makes radiators themselves if you have overheating issues and need something somewhat custom. | ||
| Nick Badame Refrigeration Co. (Dnick85)
Registered Member Username: Dnick85 Post Number: 318 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 75.197.113.208  Rating: N/A |
Detroit Radiator built my cores and I'm very pleased with their fast service. Nick- | ||
| ED Hackenbruch (Shadowman)
Registered Member Username: Shadowman Post Number: 137 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 70.192.45.165 Rating: N/A |
Nick, could you give us the dimensions of your cores + # of rows and what it cost, just to give the rest of us some idea of what we are looking at if we ever need to do the same? | ||
| Bob Baldwin (Bob4106)
Registered Member Username: Bob4106 Post Number: 171 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 24.74.180.20  Rating: N/A |
On June 17, 2009 I purchased a radiator for my 1963 GM 4106. From General Radiators Ind. Prior to purchasing the radiator I spoke with your salesman who’s name is Dan. I told Dan exact what I thought I needed. Dan told me he pulled the print on the radiator for my specific vehicle. He told me the measurements for that radiator were 33 ¼ X 32”. He also told me to check the header plate and the dimensions were 6 ¼ X 33 7/8” which he told me they should be. He also told me to make sure I had 42 bolts per tank. Dan did explain to me I would have to use the old tanks off my old radiator; I told him that was not a problem. Dan told me they would send gaskets, nuts and bolts for me to complete this. I also told Dan I needed to have 20% more cooling capacity, at point Dan told me I would need to add another row which would take me to 5 rows. He also suggested going with serpentine fins, he told me their design was the best in the industry. He told me the combination of adding and additional row and the serpentine fins would achieve my cooling needs. At this time the price he quoted me was $745.00. Dan went on and on about the quality of their company, product, how long they had been in business, etc. Since this was such a big purchase I needed to time to think about it and get back to him. Well Dan called me the next couple of days, a couple of times he had left me a message stating “I was just following up to see if you were ready to go ahead with your radiator.” I called Dan back and told him I was ready to go ahead and order the radiator I just was a little nervous about the measurements and wanted to go over them one more time. I gave him all the measurements I had. He told me he was going to need the depth. I told him I would need to take the old radiator out to get an accurate measurement and I would call him back after I had that measurement. He told me I didn’t need to do that, all I had to do was stick a piece of wire through the radiator core and measure from there. I gave him the measurement which was 3 ¾”. At that time Dan realized I had a 5 row and was going to need to go to a 6 row. He did tell me that would take the price from $745.00 to $890.00. I told him I didn’t feel comfortable giving him the measurements without having the old radiator out to get exact measurements and know exactly how many rows I did have. Dan then told me “ok, look I will drop the price to $845.00 and if its not right I will take it back”. I decided I felt comfortable enough to move forward. Again I reviewed my measurements and row requirements with Dan. I gave him my bank card # and I also told him I would fax a UPS label. Shipping cost were over $60.00. When I received my radiator I was thrilled. Since we were going to go away for the July 4th weekend I was going to get right into getting it installed. Once I took the new radiator out of its packing I noticed it looked smaller than my old radiator. So I measured the new radiator indeed it was smaller it 33 ¼ X 28”. The next day (about 9am EST) I called to speak with Dan, when I told him my problem he said “let me do some checking and he would get right back to me”. I asked him about how long he thought he would be he said 15 minutes. Well, I waited for over 30 min and went to bed (I work 3rd shift). I assumed he would call and leave a message and when I woke up I would give him a call. When I woke he had not called, so I called him again. He answered the phone and I told him who I was and I asked him what he found out. He said hang on a minute and put me on hold. At that time a man named Todd was now on the phone. I explained to Todd this was not the size radiator I ordered. Todd told me the size did not matter (which didn’t make any sense to me since size seemed so critical to Dan at the time of ordering). Todd then told me there was nothing wrong with that radiator and it was the best in the industry, etc. I told Todd I didn’t think this was going to take care of my cooling needs. Todd assured me this radiator would take care of my cooling needs and if it didn’t he would cut two cores in half and place them together if he had to. Todd told me to install the radiator and I told him I didn’t want to do that I wanted to speak to the owner. Todd told me he would have the owner call me back. About 30 minutes later a man named Jim called me. I told him everything I already reviewed with Dan and Todd. Jim did nothing except repeat what Todd previously told me with the exception of “cutting two cores in half and putting them together if I have to”. At that point I decided to take their direction and install the radiator. I took my old radiator out and took off the tanks. I put the gasket on the tanks and went to install them on the new radiator only to find out the bolts were not long enough, they were ½” to short. After purchasing new bolts and assembling all parts I was now ready to install the new radiator it in my old frame. I then installed the new radiator into the vehicle. We took the vehicle out on Sunday June 28 to make sure everything was ok prior to the July 4th weekend. During our the test drive I was upset, not only didn’t the new radiator cool my vehicle any better than my old radiator, it was worse. Only a little worse, but it was worse. From everything I was told and for over $900 spend my vehicle should have been running cooler, not the same and certainly not hotter. I called Jim on Monday June 29 at 9am EST. I didn’t ask him for a refund or to take the radiator back I simply explained how it ran. Jim told me they sold me the best radiator in the industry and that I must have other problems. So I simply asked him what are you going to be able to do for me and he said “there is nothing more I can do”. I told him this is not the size radiator I ordered and that his salesman told me if I had any problems he would take it back. Jim told me that “his sales people would never say that and if they did he would fire them on the spot”. Later that day my wife and talked to him in hopes of maybe getting a little further. When my wife told Jim that Dan told my husband all the things listed above Jim then told her “well I really don’t know what was said between them because I was not involved in the conversation nor did I tape it”. Jim did agree to fax us what was supposed to be an agreement to satisfy us. This fax was a big nothing . My wife called again on Monday July 6th and spoke with Jim again. She said to him I am calling you one last time in hopes we can work something out. He went on and on and talked in circles. She finally interrupted him and asked are you going to let us send this back and then send us the size radiator we wanted and he said “NO” and then hung up on her. Of course we would like to be able to get the correct radiator from General Radiator, however at this time I am not at all comfortable trusting the well being of my wife, myself and my vehicle to their standard of integrity. I would simply like to be able to send them back their product and get a full refund along with my shipping expenses. The Illinois Attorney General is now taking over this matter. | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 440 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 66.118.92.4  Rating: N/A |
Bob, I'm not criticizing your situation or methods in any way, but I did notice (and was very happy that) when I ordered windows from Peninsula Glass, every item on the order was in writing (with a statement of warranty and return policy) and was checked, signed and agreed to by both parties. The only problem that I had was that I specified the wrong color for one glass -- which was entirely my fault which I pointed out very clearly when I called them. But they replaced the glass for what I felt was a low price and I paid shipping both ways -- as I felt that I should have. I feel sure that if the windows had been made to an incorrect size and measurement ("incorrect" being not what we agreed to), Peninsula would have made it right. I think that you were treated badly by this company and I hope that you get it right. But I also think that "get it in writing" is a good way to go. | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 319 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.219  Rating: N/A |
complemention or co-operation is most always more efficient than competition or competing in my universe. ...but then that is just my way, obviously not a middle mans perspective... | ||
| John and Barb Tesser (Bigrigger)
Registered Member Username: Bigrigger Post Number: 235 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 96.42.7.186  Rating: N/A |
When i got my bus it was sitting in South Dakota with a rotten radiator on one side (the MC5c Saudi has two big rads). I called Luke at US Coach from home and talked to him. They pulled a used radiator out, had it recored and shipped to the bus for under $1K in less than a week with only $50 shipping. I was totally satisfied and it fit like a glove. Maybe I could have saved a buck or two somewhere else, but I know if I had had any problems that they would have made it right. | ||
| Ed Roelle (Ed_roelle)
Registered Member Username: Ed_roelle Post Number: 79 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 98.250.25.28 Rating: N/A |
I have bought 4 cores from Detroit Radiator and have been very satisfied. I had bought a pair from another company, and returned them when I saw the quality. I was told Detroit Radiator is the source for MCI parts. Ed Roelle Flint, MI | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 320 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.219 Rating: N/A |
... now that I had the time to review your complaint, let us go back to the mechanical basics (in generic terms , as I have not had intimacy with GMC buses, hopefully others more qualified may chime in to aid you in pinpoint with my generic troubleshooting based on some minor details not yet volunteered). 1. are there any other issues in the cooling system a. corrosion or build up from bad water or unknowns such as additives, or incompatible coolants added... a proper system flush would have lessened this likely possibility before installing the new radiator. So did you flush at any point or just install the new radiator. b.other related cooling system issues such as testing the thermostat for correct operation & direction of installation. c. air flow efficiency , inspect the entire system , details such as the shrouds system for defects. d. how about the coolant delivery system, hose defects such as inner wall collapse, air traps, worn or broken pump impeller or debris that may be causing flow turbulence in parts of the system. e. consider any and all modifications from factory that may alter they system synergy, it is amazing how the slightest detail can turn into a major "just 4 bolts" repair , especially if you suffer from genetic predispositions such as "luck of the irish syndrome" or "murhpy's law" for the general populations call me vulcan , but logic seems to dictate that you soiled it (the radiator & apparently your customer/wholesaler/custom builder designer relationship, made verbal agreements (all-be-it under layman's duress of confussion) that were full of ambiguity, so the easiest way to deal with the mechanical issues is to describe the problem , then enact a the most viable solution. ... perhaps this way is not as long & drawn out as hired litigation, but then we can not all do inter-disciplinary profession while working shift work,all the time, on such a simple things as re-engineering a simple machine, can we now ... ~good luck , may you get up and busing long before the sweetin' turns to winter chills ; just my way of bus therapy , may some of it work for your ways~ | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 985 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.200.14  Rating: N/A |
The make of the bus is not important. It appears to me, all other things equal, that Bob didn't get the radiator he ordered. That alone is enough for me never to deal with them. | ||
| ED Hackenbruch (Shadowman)
Registered Member Username: Shadowman Post Number: 138 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 75.216.240.44 Rating: N/A |
Yup, the only thing that matters is that he did not get what he ordered and paid for. They should make it right! Keep us updated Bob, and you might want to let them know that others are watching to see what happens. | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 322 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.232 Rating: N/A |
-call me-a-tree-a with a simple obsession of helping buses recieve a long functional existence, but to my way of conveluted thinking : ~ the first issue now is to get that cooling system functioning adequately for bob's next much anticipate outing. +In the process of fixing this cooling system, he & his partner will be better equipped with all the facts for the next round of litigation & mitigation with the custom radiator vendor, win or lose, in a fair settlement. Perhaps in the future you will have enough closure on this incident to deal without as much ambiguity, without a mild form of post traumatic buyers remorse, with which to employ all your knowledge & wisdom on the next "not off the shelf" industrial aquisition. ~~ We-all should remember that this is not like ordering from your local auto zone part store for your caviler, it is not just four bolts, and neither is restoring or upgrading a 46 year old cooling system design, it doesn't just happen on belief & feelings gentlemen ! Come to mention it , there is not much simple about a modern caviler cooling sytem either !!! ~~~ Just becasue mechanics are compensated like hamberger cooks doesn't mean it is a simple as, well repairig humans, they don't just get better with placibo repairs & beliefs that a new fangled this or that is all it needs. - Not commenting on your repair job here bob, as you have not share many facts with which to do more than pure speculation beyound the rad shops rather lack of customer education skill. < Lest we forget the main justification of the archives is to teach others how to fish or ah repair there bus , not just to give them fish or ah step by step , one on one mechanical totuorage & mutaual confirmation. It is not just about us and or imediate needs & feelings, but we all know this, as it is our common way . Why else would we be so attracted to restoring sensible mass transport when there is all forms of personal & stick'n'staples transport devices available that only require the nearest dealership and a good credit card ? > Not that I am trying to put ideas into anyone's head or anything, just asking my leading questions , as always & if we-all make a better example for others to follow, well that is there choice, isn't it ? ... I do have to justify my efforts & rewards to my own conscience , just like we-all... | ||
| AL (Proudeagle10)
Registered Member Username: Proudeagle10 Post Number: 73 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 75.106.64.59 Rating: N/A |
Clint! WOW. What did you say? | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 323 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.232 Rating: N/A |
...it is true that owner/operators need to fix there feelings & beliefs & mechanical diagnostic procedures; but a old coach needs much more, real repairs based on the sound reality & good shop practice, not just the cheat & gain of marketing tricks & there prey. Which is just a general statement about the technical quality of our ever lasting postings & certainly NOT meant as a reflection on any individuals portrayed in this thread. | ||
| Craig Craddock (Gs4)
Registered Member Username: Gs4 Post Number: 50 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 66.82.9.74 Rating: N/A |
Bob did not mention his bus has been repowered to a 8V71TA. He has many more BTU's to get rid of then a stock GM 4106. | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 329 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.232 Rating: N/A |
me bad too, I did failed to mention I was directing my post to those that will read & in times too follow; just using bob's scenario as a sounding board, but we all know that about me , right ??? thanks for catching our lack of detail , but then is this not why you rose to G.S.four level , by merit ? | ||
| Bob Baldwin (Bob4106)
Registered Member Username: Bob4106 Post Number: 172 Registered: 10-2004 Posted From: 24.74.180.20 Rating: N/A |
Craig Yes your right I didn't say anything about the repower,How ever I ask for 20% more cooling capacity. That would make it go from a 5 row to a 6 row radiator.This sould put me where I needed to be. IF THE RADIATOR WAS THE SIZE I ORDER | ||
| Gus Causbie (Gusc)
Registered Member Username: Gusc Post Number: 989 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.200.113 Rating: N/A |
Al, I was wondering the same thing?? | ||
| Mike Eades (Mike4905)
Registered Member Username: Mike4905 Post Number: 194 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 70.127.150.40 Rating: N/A |
Bob I had my 8v71 redone by Luke. A compelete recore. Best money I spent on that 4905. When Bill was in there , He discovered the wrong fan and changed that and the system worked perfect. I was pulling a 24' trailer that was very heavey and I had no temp problems even on the big hills. I would suggest that you be very careful when trying to save a buck. These are pricey toys and a cost money to keep them in good shape. Remember the fleet they came out of gave them up because of maintence costs. | ||
| Craig Craddock (Gs4)
Registered Member Username: Gs4 Post Number: 51 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 66.82.9.74 Rating: N/A |
Clint; the GS4 refers to my live steam locomotive hobby. GS4 was a class of Southern Pacific Locomotive. svls.org is my home club. Mike; your mention about the fan. It is a very important component of the cooling system. When I called Mayo Radiator a mfg. in Oakland, CA. Once I gave him my radiator spec's. The first of several questions was about my fan. He did not even want to discuss the radiator until he had more info. about the fan. He also mentioned adding more cores would require a stronger fan. I previously installed a 8 blade 32" diameter fan. Mayo's radiator core preference was more radiator surface area with the least number of rows of cores as the most efficient. I figured a way to add 23% to my surface area. That was 3" to the top and 3" to the bottom. It was going to stick down a little more then I wanted. I have seen some factory unit very similiar. A strong skid plate would be important in my opinion. My problem was the fan which is clutch driven. It was slipping most of the time to various degrees at different engine speeds. My problem was not consistant, one time all worked well and next time I would run the misters the whole trip. I was beginning to question my sanity while trying to find my over heating problem. A hand help laser tach checking fan speed vs engine speed and within two minutes I had the answer. Bob; sorry to hear about your bad experience with the core. I had a similiar problem with Walker Radiator / Fans a dozen years ago. They recommended a electric fan for a specific radiator they made. When it arrived it was too big and the same sales person did not remember anything. They did fix it after several conversations with someone else and a significiant restocking charge. Craig 4104 - 8V71TA/V730 | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 336 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.232 Rating: N/A |
~excellent to learn, GSfour, that we know have a source of steam engineering on board and perhaps a way to approach the vast resources (think co-gen scavenge of even 1/3 of that 2/3 heat our jimmys work so hard at rejecting) in you Southern Pacific Locomotive.svls.org club. Practical mobile steams plant knowledge is a rare of rare commodity to access. > Perhaps of much more function than someone with Gs4 clearance; will someone else out there prove me wrong again? I prefer being wrong as it means I was just given more facts & stand closer to the truth (insatiable truth junky with a chronic dependency on data ! < Thanks for sharing , I will visit your org. at first oppertunity | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 918 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.192.0.94  Rating: |
"Remember the fleet they came out of gave them up because of maintence costs." Perhaps , but remember there are really 2 classes of buses. The real workhorses were designed to be repairable almost forever. Hound would change out an engine & tranny overnight , and another year of reliable pax carrying would go on.MCI was similar in being very repairable. The light duty coaches were used for tourists , and many could not be booked after reaching the ripe old age of 3 , by travel brokers. At 20,000 miles a year all are fine as bus campers , but I'm not sure it was maint costs that got the decade old coaches sold . FF | ||
| ED Hackenbruch (Shadowman)
Registered Member Username: Shadowman Post Number: 142 Registered: 11-2003 Posted From: 70.193.248.188 Rating: N/A |
Fred, i think the main reason they sold off the old coaches was because the newer ones were longer and could carry more people, hence, more revenue. Lucky for those of us that now have the older 35' buses. The new buses that i see look like boxes to me.... i like the styling and character that the old ones have. :>) | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 920 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.192.0.94 Rating: N/A |
The new buses that i see look like boxes to me.... i like the styling and character that the old ones have. :>) That's why the truckers call em SHOEBOXES! FF | ||
| John Lacey (Junkman42)
Registered Member Username: Junkman42 Post Number: 98 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 66.82.9.100  Rating: N/A |
Bob, hope that You and Deb get satisifaction on the radiator. Stick to Your guns buddy. By the way Karla and I have used the " Fuelish Pleasure" and hope to see You guys soon and display the new image! Regards John | ||
| john w. roan (Chessie4905)
Registered Member Username: Chessie4905 Post Number: 1597 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 71.58.110.9 Rating: |
A lot of older busses are sold off due to tax depreciation issues. I believe that this was allowed to be done faster a few years back. Also, the collapse of the charter and general use dropped dramatically after 9-11 and never fully recovered since. Bankrupt charter companies, etc. Hence, many buses sitting around not being used. I was down at Lukes a few years back, and he had a yard full of stored coaches that were only a few years old. | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 922 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.192.0.94 Rating: |
I was down at Lukes a few years back, and he had a yard full of stored coaches that were only a few years old. Most of that disaster was the CN gov financing the same folks Fanny & Freddy did. NINJA == No Income ,No Job , Assets FF | ||
| Bill McMackin (06_bill)
Registered Member Username: 06_bill Post Number: 10 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 76.119.44.188 Rating: N/A |
Just Recored my rad with a 6 row serpetine fin unit from Gen Rad. Fit perfect. Just returned from Arches etc.Utah. Many long slow pulls at over 100 deg weather,temp never moved. By the way the rest of the trip was great. 06's forever. | ||
| Clint Hunter (Truthhunter)
Registered Member Username: Truthhunter Post Number: 354 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 24.129.232.219 Rating: N/A |
" just the way weall like it" ...keep on cool busin... | ||
| FAST FRED (Fast_fred)
Registered Member Username: Fast_fred Post Number: 924 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 76.192.0.94 Rating: N/A |
"By the way the rest of the trip was great. 06's forever." That's why there the Sports Car of Coaches!! FF |
