| Author |
Message |
Chuck MC8 (207.69.80.248)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 6:52 am: | |
Seems like I read someplace that on RV's, The propane cut off valve had to be accessable ( not in a locked compartment) and that location identified on the outside of the vechicle, in case of accident so that the gas could be turned off. Anyone familiar with this and know if its the law or someone's opinion?
My tank is in one of the bay's, and I had planned to keeo them all locked.....Anyone know for sure? |
Jerry (152.163.188.227)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 9:28 am: | |
CHUCK I'll look up the exact working but yes coming from the ANSI standards on Recreational Vehicles propane compartments must be not locked -- and other requirements |
Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (65.37.89.159)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 10:37 am: | |
Hmmmmmmm,
Well back in 1977 Apollo had their propane tank and control valves behind one of the locked basement storage doors. The storage compartment was to the right side and the propane tank was open to the elements to the left side of the opening. Definately locked as this is the only way to keep it closed.
Peter. |
Scott Whitney (66.82.9.28)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 1:31 pm: | |
From ANSI A119.2, NFPA 1192, Standard on Recreational Vehicles, 1999 ed.:
2-2.6.1 Ventilation of COmpartments Containing LP Gas cylenders
...Doors or panels providing access to valves shall not be equipped with locks or require special tools to open.
Section 2-9.2 has a whole list of warning labels that are to be placed in various locations, i.e. near refueling inlet, gas suply connections, at appliances etc. My propane dealer gave me several stickers to place on the LP compartment doors. Cheap ink, though, cause the red is fading already.
Is this stuff law? No, not that I am aware of. Is it opinion? Yes, the opinion of a group of 'experts' from various industries. However, in looking at the individuals' various affiliations, you can see that quite a few represent the RV manufacturers. I think they are self policing this stuff but are probably looking out for their own industries too.
Personally, I try follow most of the recommendations where possible. but I am not designing my coach 'to the letter' of what is in the publication.
Scott |
George Myers (12.85.15.76)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 3:20 pm: | |
The code is not the law, but when something goes wrong the real LAW (the courts) must decide if it was an accident or criminal negligence. The code is the standard to make this determination. |
DaveD (64.235.198.6)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 3:35 pm: | |
As far as what was done on a 1977 Apollo, what was acceptable in 1977 may not necessarily be acceptable now. Standards change over time as experience is gained and things that weren't thought of in the original standards come to light.
FWIW
Dave Dulmage |
Jayjay (205.188.209.11)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 8:26 pm: | |
ANSI provides the specifications for equipment/procedures for the implementation of NFPA/NEC/Factory Mutual/Plumbing and other enforceable Codes. Rather than write their own laws, most states, and municipalities opt to adopt the published Codes. As an example: The Ohio Revised Code says (I Quote) "The State of Ohio shall adopt the National Fire Protection Agency/National Electrical Code; in it's entirety, with no additions or deletions, and as revised from time to time." This is a faily generic wording, common to most governing bodies. In addition, should your insurance company decide that your installation was "negligent" insofar as the appropriate code was concerned, they may deny a claim for loss (fire,etc.) and you will have no legal recourse. While in an NFPA/NEC Inspectors Refresher Course, the speaker told us that "every" provision of that code had already been tested to at least an Apellate Court level. Civil penalties and fines are stipulated in the Code Laws, but you could also face litigation from a party injured by your not following the Law (Code). Gentleman, gone are the days of being able to say "gee whiz, I did it the best I knew how", and the old saw used in a Bill of Sale that says "Sold where-is/as-is" won't hold up in most jurisdictions either. In this litiguous society we live in you'd better find out what the Codes (Laws) say and follow it very closely. It's for your family's health and safety as much as for the world around you. Don't believe me? Call your local state or city code inspector (any branch) and ask him if you may be exempted. Cheers...JJ |
Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (66.190.119.82)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 8:38 pm: | |
JJ, are you implying that the days of doing it "MY WAY" are over?
Richard |
Scott Whitney (66.82.9.16)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 9:13 pm: | |
Hi JayJay,
You may be right. But Darryl was in the insurance business and seemed to think otherwise about this topic.
Darryl's Post
Maybe things have changed.
I am certainly not going to worry about lawsuits or losing a claim if I pull a 'My Way' here and there. But I do try to follow the code where possible. I like creative and unique solutions as much as the next guy, but when it comes to propane and electrical, the code seems pretty well established for everyone's safety.
Scott |
dougwoodin (24.170.175.44)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 9:29 pm: | |
I have a 1966 Eagle-01, about 85% complete. We live in NE Florida, just north of Daytona, so interior space heat has not been a real concern to this point.I have a 15,000 btu forced air -gas fired furnace that I plan to mount in the street-side bay,#2. I plan on running a length of 3/4 inch black steel pipe the length of the bays, mounted on the underside of the utility tunnell.The gas water heater and gas cooking stove and gas furnace will be drawing their fuel from this black-iron pipe. I don't want to place the LP gas tank in the bays with an open flame{furnace pilot ]close by. There is a large unused space in the front of the bus where the spare tire used to live.Its right behind the front bumper, about `16 inches tall by four feet wide by thirty inches front to back. This is more than enough room to mount a frame mounted LP gas tank.The area is all open to the ground, so theres no chance of collecting fumes. The front bumper and HUGE frame behind it would be more than enough protection in case of a front end accident. Any thoughts on this??? Has anyone used this space to mount LP gas tank?? It seems to me that the open area with no floor would be better than a closed bay. I could use 20 pound BBQ tanks, which would be easier to get re-filled, or a frame-mounted 60 pound tank.There could be a removeable panel in the floor, next to the drivers seat,[between the shifter and the stairs] to get to the 20 pound tanks when refilling is necessary. |
Scott Whitney (66.82.9.25)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 11:31 pm: | |
I know the Eagle has a very stoutly constructed frame. But if you choose to follow the NFPA 1192 code book on propane tank location, it explicitly forbids locating any propane tank forward of the front axle. While it may be a strong framework up there, in a head-on collision, it could have 40,000Lbs of mass trying to crush it. If it were my bus, I'd probably try to find an alternate location behind the front axle.
As you know, you don't want the propane tanks in any compartment that has a pilot either.
Scott |
Chuck MC8 (207.69.79.246)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 6:44 am: | |
OK,Just to make sure that I have the consensus, the bay door that has my propane tank (that would be the street side rear bay on my MC8) has to remain unlocked and identified from the outside of the coach as the location of the gas shut off.
(I have a horizonal tank that is about 44" long)
I know that I need to vent this bay as it contains the holding tanks as well as the propane.
So, I am giving some thought as to installing a small vented door in the bay door that would allow venting as well as a place to reach in and access the gas valve. Or vent thru the floor and use a small solid door to reach in to the valve.
How many square inches of vent area would I need for this job?
I really hate to have to leave that bay door unlocked if there if a safe alternative ( besides total elect) |
George Myers (12.85.14.105)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 9:20 am: | |
I would like to point out that within the code you have many choices. There are about a half dozen "approved" types of wire or conduit for the 120-VAC system. The real advantage of following the code is that your installations will probably work right the first time and not have to be repaired or replaced. |
Jerry (152.163.188.227)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 10:47 am: | |
VENTING - from the same 1999 ANSI 119.2 "at least 1 square inch for each 7lb of total LP-Gas fuel camacity of the maximum number of the largest cylinder(s) the campartment can hold. The vents shall be equally distributed between the floor and cieling of the compartment." There is some other probably applicable wording in this section.
Having a personal copy of this standard has been REALLY handy in planning of my 4106 conversion. It is written in relatively & surprisingly easy to read and understand language (compared to some "legaleze" I've had to have read -- (like credit card agreements for example). |
Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 11:01 am: | |
Also most people don't realize that DOT requires that the pop-off overpressure valve on undercarrige tanks be plumbed to the upper-rear of the bus with the outlet aiming up and back, with iron or gavianized pipe of the same diameter as the pop-off valve....using flexible metal pipe from the tank to the iron pipe is ok but hose is not because it will freeze and get brittle...
Cheers
Gary |
Dale MC8 (66.52.64.144)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 2:53 pm: | |
There are some motorhomes that have an ANSI tank mounted in the middle of the coach's undercarriage with no way, other than crawling undeneath, to access it. The way they get around this problem is to plumb in a remote filling tube at a convenient location. In effect the gas valve is stretched over to where you want it. Seems it would be a hazard in case of fire, but I'm not their lawyer.
HTH
Dale |
Scott Whitney (66.82.9.30)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 3:31 pm: | |
Dale,
For better or for worse, that is how my ANSI tank is set-up. I didn't want to lose all that perimeter space along the edge of the coach and waste the centermost space. So I put the tank in the middle and extended the fill and bleed lines. Gives me compartments on both sides of the tank. One holds two 5-gallon diesel fuel cans and the other holds two 5-gallon portable propane tanks. Behind that is the bus fuel tank. All my explosives are on one place, but it would be one helluva boom if it ever lit off . . .
Scott |
Jayjay (205.188.209.11)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 10:06 pm: | |
I can't comment on LP since I have no experience with it. George is absolutely right though, if you follow the Codes closely (through their multiple iterations) you will provide a safe environment for your family and nights of worry-free sound sleep after you have sold it. I agree that we all do it "my way" from time to time, and will continue to be scofflaws in the future, but if you follow the laws closely then you can claim "intent" and probably stop litigation (a rare, extremely expensive, occurence) before it starts. The best thing one can do is to approach the 'Board members who are experts in their field for advise, and buy the various code manuals. I've been in two RV parks that the local electrical inspector checks you electric service before you can hook up. I got pissed and called him the Gestapo and he laughed and said "Yup, but you still have to have the inspection" Cheers...JJ |
Don KS/TX (67.210.119.70)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 8:51 am: | |
Could you share the name and location of those two RV Parks and the cost per night? Must be a helluva volume to afford an electrical inspector. |
Jayjay (205.188.209.11)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 10:20 pm: | |
One was run by the City of Portsmouth,OH. (city code enforcement) $15.00 nite)The other was in Spokane,WA, but I can't remember the name, since I got hot and left. About $15-18 per nite. Again I think it was run by/ policed by the City Gov't as # 1 was. In Ohio I found a private lot to stay on, in Spokane I landed at the Park Lane Motel and RV Prk on E. Sprague Ave. Nice place, level lots (for a change) $18.00 nite. I'm gonna' keep my big mouth shut! This was over two years ago, and I had to dig thru two piles of receipts to find the info. Whew! In the last three years I've driven the 4905 almost 20,000 miles across this country and back twice, and FL and back three times, and stayed in a pot load of campgrounds. These were the only two I ran across, but I've heard several horror stories around the camps of others that didn't get away like I did,and were fined. No names available though. See you in Arcadia. Cheers...JJ |
Jayjay (205.188.209.11)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 10:30 pm: | |
We talk of Code enforcement often. These rare actions are ALL Civil, and not Criminal in nature. Most are warnings with compliance stipulated to stop adjudication. Usually handled at an Administrative Level, rather than thru a court. Makes a strong case for BLM boon-docking doesn't it? But then there's the BLM Inspector out in his 4X4 checking permits, and sewer caps. Huh? Maybe FF has the right idea with his boat stuff. But then there's the Coast Guard. Aw Sh*t, what are we 'gonna due? Yes due! Cheers...JJ |
Larry Baird (Airhog) (66.171.52.84)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 3:58 am: | |
Hey, remember me! I know for a fact that you don’t need to vent the bay when you put the propane in side, and you can lock it too. I have a 44” tank in the back bay with 100 gallons of gas for the generators and the water heater also. When the tank leaked and exploded it had no trouble opening the locked doors, it almost turned the bus over (MC7). The way to vent the tank is leave it in the back yard! Signed, Lucky Larry |
Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 11:58 am: | |
Well, the lesson here is that you should NEVER enclose a propane tank in a sealed area, PERIOD.
Tanks vent propane while filling, leaking, or blowing off the excess pressure valve (which you've properly piped away I hope!)
I will say this- there are many things you can "do your way" regarding bus conversions, but messing with the rules on propane is not one of them. Unfortunatley most of the propane rules have come about due to someone's untimely demise. Larry, you're lucky to be alive!!
Always PLEASE remember that the stuff is extremely explosive, and it's heavier than air. It loves to collect in pools and then go boom. As far as I'm concerned, the only part of a propane installation that belongs in the cabin is the appliance itself. All piping including the tank should be under the bus with nothing below it but the street, and each appliance should have a shutoff valve right where it's feed pipe pierces the floor. And no hose if possible. Iron pipe or sheathed stainless-steel bellows pipe only..
For the folks with extended fill systems, remote fillers are ok, but to extend them there is propane hose and then there is propane hose. The stuff to use is very expensive, rubber hose with stainless steel braid enmeshed within the hose, and hydraulicly crimped ends, specifically manufactured for propane service. There is a lot of high pressure propane BBQ hose out there made with non-metallic braid, NOT good on your rig unless you want to die early some day. And these installations would do well to have either a long mechanical shaft sticking out the side of the bus to turn the tank valve off, or at least a solenoid controlled valve. Personally I won't do it unless I have a way to turn the actual hi-pressure tank valve off from outside the bus.
Propane detectors should be used in all appliance areas, and appliances should NEVER be enclosed in the slightest way where gas could pool up. If they spring a leak, the design should be created so the gas runs down and onto the floor (and the propane detector) and cannot concentrate.
I totally understand Henry's distrust of the stuff, but if done properly, it will cause no problems and be very safe. But it's not a gas to mickey mouse with.
Cheers
Gary |
DaveD (142.46.196.34)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 12:20 pm: | |
It's important to keep in mind that propane tanks must be sealed from the interior of the bus. The applicable standards for installation of LPG supplies in RV's detail what is aceptable for installation of LPG bottles, in terms of type of enclosure, means of sealing it and requirements for venting the enclosure through the bottom.
DaveD |