| Author | Message | ||
| Johnny (63.159.185.206)
Rating: N/A |
2 questions: 1) What did these have for drivetrains--6V71's with 2-speed autos? 2) Anyone here ever converted one? Because I think I saw one that had been converted yesterday. | ||
| Doug (12.90.22.139) Rating: N/A |
they come with 6 and 8 71's originally thay also came with 2 and 3 speed autos as well as 4 speeds. People convert them, in my opinion they don't make the best canndidate. No underfloor space, or little if it is a SD model. por gearing for highway driving, unless you get a suburban model have air doors loud and leak air......everyone want to get rid of these. most have had pretty hard lives I have seen a few nice conversions.....but the money spent vs any potential return when you go to sell it. Best of luck | ||
| Johnny (67.241.224.34)
Rating: N/A |
I think they look neat--and unique, now--all the transits around here now are Grumman/Flxibles. I've never seen a New Look in transit service (well, OK, maybe on TV). Don't most transits have air-operated doors? What the heck is an SD? | ||
| RJ Long (24.127.74.29) Rating: N/A |
SD = Suburban Diesel. Transit body, single front door, may or may not have recliner chairs rather than transit seating, may or may not have highway gearing, may or may not have small underfloor baggage bins. Designed mostly for commuter runs, rather than block-to-block operation. 99% of transits do have air operated doors. Vapor Controls is the most commonly used brand. HTH, RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| DaveD (142.46.196.34)
Rating: N/A |
There are plenty of 24 and 25 year GM transits still running strong here in Ottawa. Our municipal transit authority, OC Transpo, tends to keep them for 25 years. Nice ride, and they seem to be like the Energizer bunny. I don't see any of the other makes that OC Transpo has bought running as long as the GM's do. DaveD | ||
| Busasaurus (24.69.255.205)
Rating: N/A |
GM Fishbowls are still running here in the lower mainland out of Surrey and Port Coquitlam. They outlived 3 versions of Flyers here. I also saw some in Santa Monica last year and I rode one in Ottawa two years ago, nice to see they're still running there too. Any other cities have them? Bryan Vancouver BC | ||
| RJ Long (24.127.74.29) Rating: N/A |
Fresno's transit system has one - a 35', non-power steering fish that's been restored to the '61 transit system paint scheme. Fleet number 610, IIRC. Used for parades and PR work only. Training dept uses it sometimes for fun around the lot, showing the newbies "what it was like" 40 years ago. . . RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| Johnny (67.242.221.175)
Rating: N/A |
Parades & PR work only? Where's the fun in that?! That's like owning a Viper, and never going over 50MPH. . . . Wait a minute, there are plenty of people who do just that. What's the big deal with power steering on something withg the engine in the back? I don't see the need. | ||
| Johnny (67.242.221.175)
Rating: N/A |
Oh, yeah--I saw the same coach again. It had to have been repowered--I was running 70MPH (in my truck), & it passed me (flat ground). Something tells me a stock New Look won't run 75MPH. I paced him for a minute for a closer look--he had 4 roof A/C's (can you say overkill?), a trailer hitch (no trailer), and Maine plates. I assume these were aluminum (or stainless?), since the whole thing was unpainted--just polished metal. It didn't smoke at all, FWIW. | ||
| charles seaton (205.183.220.250) Rating: N/A |
Westchester County, NY had 1970 T8H5306As that would do 72-75 mph on the flat. They had the 8v71 engines, and three-speed autos. Not V730s,but VS 2s. Stick shift suburbabns were also good for more than 70 mph. Remember, a lot depends on the gearing. GM New looks were almost the perfect bus until they started cracking in the rear because of lack of care. | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior) (64.229.211.159)
Rating: N/A |
Still running several hundred New Looks here in Toronto. Selected buses ranging in age from 1975 to our last order in 1984. T6H 5307N, all but one with 6V71 and V730. The one has a two speed which I haven't ID'd. All went through an extensive 4 week in-house rebuild program, fresh bulkheads front and rear, retrofit of power steering, window seals, air system, drive train package, the works. At the height a couple of years ago, they were putting 5 buses out the door a week. Up here in the province of Ontario, we're still hanging in the dark days of almost a decade now of lack of government support to buy enough equipment, so we fix up the GM's and keep scrapping everything newer due to unrepairable structural corrosion, fancy way to say rusted out frames. GM New Looks (and the GM Classics, the younger sister to the New Look) are completely rebuildable. The perfect bus, if you worry about ownership costs, since you just chisel off the rivets, let the bulkheads drop to the floor, slap in a fresh set, replace any panels that look poorly, rivet in place, paint, and come back in 12 to 15 years and do it again. (We have salt up here, and not as much rust inhibiter as I would use if I was in charge!) Hopefully a TEA 21 type change in heart will come along up here too, since we don't have enough New Looks and Classics to carry the rest of the aging Flyer and Orion rust buckets... And management prefer fresh expensive crappy buses to dependable cheap old ones. happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| RJ Long (24.127.74.29) Rating: N/A |
Johnny - The reason Fresno Transit's New Look is only used for PR work is tied up in the regulations related to transit funding, both state and federal. Officially, it doesn't exist on the roster of revenue service vehicles - it's listed as a non-revenue vehicle, and therefore not subject to the funding formulas. In addition, since it was built in 1961, it obviously doesn't meet current ADA regulations, which is another can of worms in itself for the transit industry. So a PR vehicle it is. As for the non-power steering in a rear engine coach, it's not too bad once you're moving over 5 mph. Pulling out from a bus stop requires MAJOR effort until you get it rolling. BTDT. I've also had the power steering fail on an MC-9 (the common older Greyhound coach), not for the faint of heart. Even with a 22" diameter steering wheel, it was almost impossible to control. TG I was in a parking lot at the time. . . GMC bus chassis, both transit and highway models, are about 90% aluminum, with steel reinforcements in the high-stress areas. They're built like an airplane - the exterior skin is the frame, tied together with the various bulkheads front and rear. Not like your skoolie, which is really nothing more than a box bolted onto a truck frame. Comparing a 40' GMC 4905 hiway coach to the MC-9 noted above, the GM weighs nearly 8,000 lbs LESS, gets better fuel mileage, has a longer wheelbase for a wonderful ride (actually longer than many of today's forty-five footers!), nice mountain handling due to the anti-roll bars, and the largest baggage bins ever available in a forty-footer. It's sad that GM chose to leave the bus industry, as their coaches have an enviable reputation for durability and low operating cost that hasn't been equaled by any other builder. That's the end of tonight's bus industry lesson. . . RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| RJ Long (24.127.74.29) Rating: N/A |
Footnote to tonight's lesson: The RTS, as originally designed and built by GMC, was part of an experimental "White Paper" federal transit bus project that never made it off the ground. Coming after the New Look Fishbowls, the RTS's were originally built with a stainless steel skeleton chassis that a FRP (Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic) - like skin was then hung on to make it "pretty". Today's Saturn automobiles use a similar construction technique, albeit w/o the stainless skeleton. End of footnote. . . RJ | ||
| charles seaton (205.183.220.250) Rating: N/A |
Let's keep this fishbowl string going. Anyone out there who has done a converted fishbowl? | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior) (64.229.211.77)
Rating: N/A |
I know a fellow who did a TDH 5302 or 5303. Bill, are you still haunting the Board when you visit your daughter?? He did a really extensive job. New drive train, extra suspension parts, all this near to 20 years ago, long before there was help like the internet! I'll have to go hook up the old computer and see if I can track him down and get him to post. Now that I've looked for his address, I've discovered I haven't heard from him in over a year, since I got the new computer! You never know what you forgot to transfer from the old one to the new one until you go looking.... happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Johnny (67.241.224.91)
Rating: N/A |
"In addition, since it was built in 1961, it obviously doesn't meet current ADA regulations, which is another can of worms in itself for the transit industry." I assume you're referring to a wheelchair lift system? Couldn't it be added? I have no trouble maneuvering my front-engine, manual-stering bus, & had no trouble in a 10-wheel cab-over (Ford C9000, IIRC). | ||
| RJ Long (24.127.74.29) Rating: N/A |
Johnny - Yes, a wheelchair lift could be added, but the cost would be more than the bus is worth. Lift-U brand lifts, which are the most common front-door units, run in the neighborhood of $25,000. . . How many would you like? There is more than just the lift involved, you also have to have tie-downs w/in the interior that meet FMVSS specs, fold-up seating, three-point seatbelts, and the list goes on. . . So a PR bus it will remain! Glad you like Armstrong steering. I prefer power. RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| DaveD (142.46.196.34)
Rating: N/A |
I noticed a 1976 model GM fishbowl in service in OC Tranpso's fleet while on my way to work today here in Ottawa. Typically, except for years where OC Transpo has purchased more than 100 busses, the busses have been numbered with the first two digits indicating the year purchased (e.e 7645) would be the 45th bus purchased in 1976). DaveD | ||
| Paul (205.210.53.253) Rating: N/A |
If you go back to the Bus Nut home page and click on "Conversions in Progress" There are some GM transits featured. | ||
| Busasaurus (24.69.255.205)
Rating: N/A |
Our Transit Museum has 2 fishbowls, a 35 footer that's restored in the blue, green and white BC Hydro colours that ran here in Vancouver back in the 70's. It has manual steering and is a great bus to drive around. The bus went to Seattle a few years ago for a transit commemoration. The other is a 40 footer that a movie company bought literally days before it was to be scrapped. They painted it green, and we were told it was the NYC colour scheme from the 60's and 70's... although I wouldn't know how accurate that is.. or even how close the paint job was. When the movie company was finished with it they gave it to us for a dollar (I think). It has power and tilt steering and a ricaro seat. We nicknamed it the "Green Hornet". It's been on fan trips, historic charters, on other movie shoots, and we use it to push and pull other buses around the lot if they can't be powered themselves. We really only took it because we can't stand to see anything like this scrapped, but it's turned out to be a favourite, and has earned us lots more money than what it cost to insure it. The heat/fan system down one side of the interior doesn't work, and those windows fog over when it rains. We're probably going to fix it but I hear that's another typical thing that goes on these buses. Both fishbowls have mysterious air leaks. You should hear them after they're shut down. I think Doug is right, it's probably from the doors. I always thought it would be a good idea to convert a fishbowl, but I'm probably lucky that the transit company out here wouldn't sell me one. I've seen photos of some nice looking conversions, but you'd have to be willing to enjoy some awfully slow scenery if you took either of our fishbowls over a decent sized hill. -Bryan Vancouver BC | ||
| Jarlaxle (63.20.60.246)
Rating: N/A |
"Johnny - Yes, a wheelchair lift could be added, but the cost would be more than the bus is worth. Lift-U brand lifts, which are the most common front-door units, run in the neighborhood of $25,000. . . How many would you like? There is more than just the lift involved, you also have to have tie-downs w/in the interior that meet FMVSS specs, fold-up seating, three-point seatbelts, and the list goes on. . ." Well, lessee: $25K for a lift (all the ones I see here--which are exclusively in Grumman/Flxibles--are in the REAR door, BTW), versus HOW MUCH for a new bus, with a third the lifespan of a refurbished New Look? Actually, the company I work for (mostly van shuttles, with a Spartan pusher, a Freightliner 35' snubnose, & a 30' Bluebird mid-engine) might be getting a Fishbowl soon. No details, except it's a New Look (the guy said it looked like "the bus in Speed"), an auto, & probably a 35'er. I assume it would have been refurbished at least once. | ||
| HenryMC7 (24.70.95.206)
Rating: N/A |
I'm coming late to this thread but here in Edmonton, we have 350+ GM 5307's still runnning around. Just like the Energizer Bunny, they keep going and going. Three years ago we retired one that had been manufactured in 1964! Thirty-five years in service! Like Buswarrior mentioned, we have been doing extensive rebuilds here as well. Our goal is to keep them running until 2010 when they will finally be phased out. Many of our operators still would rather drive one of them instead of our New Flyer 40DLF's. Talking to our mechanics, they would rather work on the "Jimmys" because of their simplicity. The Flyers require a computer interface and lots of $$$ for the smallest parts. I echo RJ's sentiments: it's too bad GMC got out of the bus manufacturing business. They were quite the bus!! Henry | ||
| Bill Gerrie (66.185.85.76)
Rating: N/A |
Hi Bus Warrior I'm still around. I am even in the process of getting hooked up at our country place. All I can get up there is a dial up connection but that is better than nothing. In response to the board I converted a 1965 GMC 5303 fishbowl in 1984 and am still enjoying it to this day. I admit that orginally there was no storage compartments underneath, armstong steering, 6V71 with a VH trans, 50mph top speed, plus a lot of other things but now it has tilt-telescopic steering wheel, floating drivers seat, one piece front door, underneath storage, 7.5kw diesel generator, 8V71 with a V730 and a top speed of 75mph. It has been very reliable for the past 18 years that we have toured the Canadian and USA highways. I know a lot of bus people don't like Transits but the ride and ease of working on them makes it worth while considering them as a bus to convert. Bill ***Bus warrior. I sent you an e-mail a long time ago but maybe it got lost in cyber space. I am still enjoying retirement for almost 5 1/2 years now but do miss the passengers and the fellow drivers. The 4.00am alarm was never missed when I called it quits. Bill | ||
| Johnny (63.20.60.148)
Rating: N/A |
Oooooops--"Jarlaxle" is me. That's my handle on another board, & I clicked the wrong one when I posted that here. Whoops. | ||
| charles seaton (205.183.220.250) Rating: N/A |
I saw Bill Gerries's 5303 in a Bus Conversions Magazine article a while back and have to say that I was quite impressed. It appeared to be a job well done on a pretty good bus. | ||
| Geoff (Geoff) (64.1.0.16)
Rating: N/A |
If you want to see a nicely converted AM General New Look check this out: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6728&item=1874457601&rd=1 (you may have to cut and paste if the entire address does not highlight, or just do an EBay search for item# 1874457601 ) --Geoff | ||
| Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (170.215.60.147)
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I particularly liked this quote from his description......... >>Most if not all converted coaches in this price range (Auction starting price $75,000) are poorly built with tacky interiors for tacky people who drives from RV park to RV park, drinking Budweiser, watching television and compare size of generators with their neighbors. This is not the kind of buyer I am looking for.<< and no proper paint job!!!! Peter. | ||
| RJ Long (24.127.74.29) Rating: N/A |
And I scratched my head over this line: "The AM General is considered one of the best built buses ever. . ." I guess that's why so many transit properties got exemptions from the feds to retire them early due to excessive downtime for repairs. . . | ||
| Johnny (63.20.60.55)
Rating: N/A |
">>Most if not all converted coaches in this price range (Auction starting price $75,000) are poorly built with tacky interiors for tacky people who drives from RV park to RV park, drinking Budweiser, watching television and compare size of generators with their neighbors. This is not the kind of buyer I am looking for.<<" That alone would make me never want to deal with this clown. | ||
| Luke Bonagura (Lukeatuscoach) (12.90.0.23)
Rating: N/A |
Hi R.J. Re: AM General Coaches: For the last few years, we have been a successful bidder with SEPTA, the transit authority in Philadelphia to perform body repairs, namely to take care of rust & corrosion problems area, when their shop gets backed, and in order to pass Penna. State Inspection. The Neoplans (early to mid 80's) have been a mess. Just hours & hours of labor to tear off the skin & get to rot, rot, rot. Last year we did 3 - AM General trolley coaches, and YES, Philadelphia is operating a fleet of them every day. The rot was basically confined to the wheel pockets areas. When we took off the skin, I was absolutely amazed at the steel structure that was used to build the coach. It is built like a TANK!!!! It was a heavy gauge of steel, and other than what was exposed to the elements, the structure looked liked it was just built. It was a real "eye-opener" for me, as I knew nothing of the coaches that AM General built other than seeing pictures. This Fall we worked on some mid-80's Neoplans and they were not as bad as the early 80's models. AM General got into the Fed. sponsored (for the most part) transit business and when they realized they could not make money at it, got out. So the cities that had their coaches, no longer had a parts supplier for the parts that were proprietary to AM General. What other issues there were with AM Generals, I don't have knowledge of, but from a structural point of view they should have lsted for a long time. Now look North to our Canadian friends where there are Fleets of GMC Transit Buses still plowing away every day!!! A sad day for the Transit & Coach industry when GM bowed out. But if you can't make money, why stay in it!!!! Thanks for listening!!! LUKE at US COACH | ||
| RJ Long (24.127.74.29) Rating: N/A |
Luke - Here in Fresno, there were 10 AMGs in the fleet. According to the (now retired) shop foreman, altho structurally sound, they were electrical nightmares. (1975 models) All of them were long gone when I arrived in Jan '85, but the Fish ('74) and Flx New Looks ('77) were still going strong. The most commonly voiced critique of the AMGs was that of simply going totally dead at the weirdest times, frequently at night in the summer, when the electrical load on the coach was the greatest. Many of my fellow transit trainers throughout the state voiced similar problems and the early retirements. . . Most of the senior drivers said the only thing good about them was the fact they were "runners - when they ran". Probably because of the 8V71 / V-730 / 4.10:1 axle powertrains. Interesting that the trolleys have survived. . . aren't too many trolley operations anymore. Muni's in San Francisco are the ones I'm most familiar with, and they run a TON of them! (BTW, Muni actually has external beepers located near the RH rear side turn signals to warn pedestrians 'cause the trolleys are so quiet!) FWIW, RJ | ||
| FAST FRED (209.26.115.222) Rating: N/A |
The reason GM left to coach construction business was they were tossed out by Congress. Because the did make the BEST coaches the various municiplaites chose then 99% of the time. When congress (most of which has no business education or experience) , who was paying for over 90% of all the coaches (mostly with "highway" funds, renamed transportation funds)realized that ONE company had virtually the entire market they screamed Monopoly. Being too stupid to understand that Monopolys can & are ONLY a product of gov edict, they werent able to understand how a De Facto Monopoly was or is different . A defacto monopoly comes from EXCELLENCE , not the Force & Fraud that comes from Gov. So our congress ( the BEST congress money can buy , according to Will Rogers), decided to pay 40% MORE to anyone that could make city busses. Amazingly the iron mongers at Bedford came to NYC and did plaster casts of pot holes and built a test track in Jolly Old. After a year of testing & reinforcing their bus , they wisely decided to give up. Flex grabbed a tiny bit of the market in civilized areas , and was doing fine BUT aircraft seller Grumman who really knows how to start low & really sucker Uncle Sucker bought out Flex and with NO testing , had enough pull in DC to get the NYC contracts. TOTAL DISASTER Most fell apart at both front & rear bulkheads , sights of transits being towed as suspension dangled was every day. The "fix" took years to re engineer & was so unsucessfull that Grumman eventually had to buy back EVERY coach. GM was smart enough to realize that coach construction was over , for them & sold the coach division. IF you wonder where the best went , look no furthur than the imbicelic creatures eating from your wallet. FAST FRED | ||
| Scott Whitney (66.82.9.19) Rating: N/A |
Paint job and auction description aside, gotta admit that AMG guy's teak interior is pretty nice. He had it on auction several months ago too. Looks like he has used the same pics but embellished the description a little. Maybe he should get a low priced paint job just to help sell it. Scott | ||
| Doug Dickinson (Dougd470) (65.161.188.11)
Rating: N/A |
I may be disagreeing with you , Fred, but the Grummann/Flx buses that NYC had were bought by NJ TRANSIT, refurbed, and returned to service. Seems NYC couldn't keep them on the road, but NJ, potholes and all, could! They got a great deal on them also. BTW - one of the contract clauses were that they never be used on a route into NYC ever. They didn't want the embarrasment I guess. The "Flx Fix" as it was known as, was a NJ TRANSIT invention with their engineering group in consultation with Lehigh University came up with in the early '80s. The Grummans would literally break in half and fracture at the rear entry door. The structural fixes were complex and involved a lot of reinforcement of bulkheads and openings in the skin. Not for the weak hearted! I agree that Grumman didn't belong in the bus industry, but it was their engineering that stunk! They couldn't/wouldn't/didn't (pick one) design a coach that could withstand the rigors of a NYC/ NJ environment. It may run fine someplace else, but the structural problems were unbelievable! GM was always high bid on the NJT contracts. The specs were quite open, but GM just cost too much. The engineering group always recognized the quality and durability of the GM (MBTA couldn't be that wrong) and I hear that Nova finally sold some to NJ Transit in the mid or late 90's. Congress, as I recall, got into this in the 80's trying to develop a competitor for BOTH GM and Flxible, who was still running strong after Grumman sold them off. Since there was a duopoly, congress had to mess up something that worked fine and eventually drove BOTH of them out (GM to Nova and I don't know where Flx went). I have to agree that Congress needs to stay out of the business sector. They can entirely screw up something that works just fine! (At least that is how I remember it from NJT. I worked there from 1985 to 1996 and have an appreciation for their engineering group. They were very good at what they did! I hear they are almost completely disbanded now.) FWIW | ||
| Johnny (67.241.224.87)
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"The Grummans would literally break in half and fracture at the rear entry door." Gee, that seems to me they take the "Flex" part a bit too literally.  OK, I know that was terrible.  | ||
| Johnny (67.241.224.87)
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Fred--Who did GM sell the coach division to, and what happened when they did? | ||
| Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (170.215.37.227)
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Johnny, I think that was at least worth a quality groan for the remark about the "Flex"....... LOL. Happy Christmas to all you Busnuts out there, and a Very Prosperous New Year to you too. "The Madbrits". | ||
| Johnny (67.241.224.87)
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When the opportunity for a horrible pun is THAT obvious......... | ||
| Luke Bonagura (Lukeatuscoach) (12.90.1.54)
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Hi R.J. Thanks for the description of AMG failures. Will just add that to Da Book of knowledge. That is DA BOOK we all write based upon experience after reading the original Da Book. And to Johnny, GMC exited the Parlor Coach business in 1980, it wasn't sold to anyone. The transit side (RTS) was sold to TMC (MCI). I almost have tears as I type this. Just think, the finest coach manufacturer that North America ever (in my opinion) had just slid away into the abyss. What a shame for the consumer!!! and taxpayer. LUKE at US COACH |