| Author | Message | ||
| Skorpio (24.92.193.195)
Rating: N/A |
Since a coach already has air systems, why have I never seen mention of an airbraked trailer. Seems like that would be the safest trailer braking you could get and the parts for air brake trailers are not all that expensive. Basicly any semi trailer that is not 53' long has almost no resale value and there are a lot of them. An old moving company low belly could be converted into a 20' to 25' tounged trailer without a whole lot of effort. And dropping the roof to something a little lower doesn't seem like it would be to tricky, they are pretty simple inside. Would you need a CDL Combination Certification to drive this, or would it fall under the same rules as RVs? | ||
| Geoff (Geoff) (64.1.0.193)
Rating: N/A |
Personally, I think it would be more than "without a whole lot of effort" and it wold be very heavy, even empty. Plus you would have to install the trailer air brake system in the bus for the trailer. Now that seems like a lot more work than just using a trailer with surge or electric brakes. --Geoff '82 RTS CA | ||
| Skorpio (24.92.193.195)
Rating: N/A |
Aren't the basics of trailer brakes already there? When an F700 shorty dump truck is pulling a trailer with a couple of bobcats on it, it is usually airbrakes on the trailer. I had a 26' pace trailer at one time with electric brakes and it sucked but better than surge brakes on boat trailers, but both of these systems lack the safety systems built into airbrakes. Airbrakes can be adjusted or disabled from the cab, which electric brakes can do, but they are not very consistent. They have a certain all or nothing feel to them. They tend to be good at stopping not very good at slowing down. Surge brakes aren't much good at all for down grades, are not adjustable, and neither system locks on disconnect. In an airbrake trailer you could load and unload a car when it is disconnected. As far as weight, moving trailers are big, but not that heavy, they are all aluminum, and I wouldn't be surprised if they where lighter per linear foot then your typical 2 or 3 axle car trailer, the manufactures of those trailers are quick to point out the added revenue you can get, because they use yet another new lightening scheme. My point was there are people talking about hauling 2 cars and laundry rooms behind their busses, and coach height trailers. If you use professional equipment to build your RV when does it become practical to extend that to your trailer. I just see people coming up with 10,000+ lbs of stuff they want to put in their trailers, this starts getting into lighter end construction equipment weights and they use air brakes for that. | ||
| Mike Eades (Mike4905) (206.148.165.38)
Rating: N/A |
One or two points. First is that if you have an electric brake system you are reqiured to have a brakeaway battery and connection took work the saftey brake if anything happens. Second is that your treadle valve is all the way up front, I would think that is where you might want to connect glad hand feed's. A long air line. If you hook at the rear brake line you might have an un balanced system. Not sure. Mike | ||
| Sean Welsh (Sean) (64.81.73.194)
Rating: N/A |
Uh, no, the basics are not already there. You need to extensively modify the coach air system before you can connect a standard air-brake trailer. Specifically you will need: A "tractor protection valve," which is usually integrated with a "Trolley Valve" also called a "J-Bar" or "Johnson Bar." The Tractor Protection valve (mandatory under USDOT rules and I believe all 50 states) automatically cuts off the air should the trailer lines come apart. This "protects" the tractor (or coach, in this case) brake system from dumping all its air in the event the trailer rips away. Without it, you will either have NO BRAKES (for older vehicles without spring brakes) or you will get an immediate FULL EMERGENCY APPLICATION in the event of a trailer disconnect. Very bad. The Trolley Valve allows application of the trailer brakes without the tractor/coach brakes. While generally not used while driving, the trailer brake inspection/test portion of the mandatory pre-trip inspection (in the case of commercial vehicles, and, in many states, private combination vehicles over certain weights or with air brakes) simply can not be performed. (Whether or not the pre-trip inspection is mandatory for you, would you consider driving away without testing the air brakes on your trailer?) On top of these important valves, which must, obviously, be installed in such a manner as to leave you with a safe and fail-safe coach brake system, you will also likely need to replace your air compressor with something bigger. That's because, in addition to filling the coach air tanks, the compressor is now also filling the trailer air tanks. You are unlikely to stay within the pressure drop and pressure rise timing parameters mandated for air-braked vehicles with the stock unit. If you're going to be pulling a heavy trailer (over, say, 5,000 pounds) I think air brakes are an excellent idea. Just don't kid yourself as to how easy it is to put them in -- it's a lot of work. (Also, I don't know about you, but when it comes to brakes, I only let professionals work on my air system. I don't want the liability, or the risk, associated with having done it myself.) -Sean | ||
| Skorpio (24.92.193.195)
Rating: N/A |
OK well I understand that it would not be trivial, but I guess my point was that a Detroit Diesel powered vehical with air bags and air brakes already has the fundementals for an air braked trailer. Adding this to a hydralic braked skooly would be a lot tougher. But if people are talking about stacking cars in a trailer, having real transport brakes and for that matter air ride springs in the trailer seems like it would be desireable. If you're dragging a couple of cars with you (or even one "nice" car) on a long expedition, I think I'd rather have that stuff riding in something that rode like a moving van than something that rode like a uhaul. If its valuable enough to enclose to begin with, shouldn't it be in something smooth and safe? And for that matter something you can park it in if it can't stay attached to the bus? Car trailers are not cheap, and they have crappy brakes, crappy wheels, crappy tires, and bouncy springs. I had one and by the time I got the class 4 hitch, distributing bars, electric brake controller, it was $11K. On the other hand I've loaded many convention and exhibit low belly moving vans (including cars in them) and they are very nice, just lock in the wheels with decking beams and off you go. Want more storage just deck over the car. And with the air ride you can throw a pack of cigarettes on the dash in the car in the back and 3000 miles later they will not be in the back seat. I dunno seems like it would be something you should be able to do for not wildly more than I spent on a trailer even if you did have the brakes profesionally done (which I would). I am assuming that someone that can service brakes on a coach would know what is needed. I am surprised though that the compressor on coaches is not the same compressor that is on tractors, would of thought it would be the same part. | ||
| Johnny (67.242.221.101)
Rating: N/A |
Well, I'm no expert, but these ARE Detroit Diesel engines--it would seem that a higher-output compressor would be as close as the nearest heavy-truck scrapyard. Mounting might take some ingenuity and maybe some different brackets & pullies, but hardly a huge problem. The valves would have to be installed (could probably get most of them from the same donor as the comp), of course--but that's not as big a deal as you make it sound (admittedly, harder than on a semi tractor, but hardly a huge problem). The best way I can think of for glad hand feeds would be to connect them up front, as Mike Eades said, then simply run air lines (either hardline or braided steel would be safest) to the rear of the bus, with the glad-hand connection fittings there. The only major downside I see is the many extra air lines required--and more lines means, of course, more places for air to leak out. Also, don't all buses & trucks after the 40's have a fail-safe brake system (as in, losing pressure will lock the rear brakes)? | ||
| Mike Tornesello (66.82.9.29) Rating: N/A |
Boy, this is fun to read. Great stuff. | ||
| Scott Whitney (66.82.9.22) Rating: N/A |
How many average busnuts have a need to haul more than one car in a trailer? Seems like enclosed space to haul one car and a few odds and ends is all even the most lavish of busnuts need in a trailer's abilities. Someone who needs/desires to haul two cars can probably afford to drive a bus with no toad and pay a dedicated driver to haul their 'toads' for them. Like Steve Wozniak (The Woz) said in a recent interview. . . 'I had my people put the Segway in the Hummer and drop it off at the airport for me.' Scott | ||
| Skorpio (24.92.193.195)
Rating: N/A |
OK what got me thinking about this in the first place was several things. First, there have been several posts about toadable, not toadable vehicles. adding braking systems to them. People saying no, stick it on a dolly, no, on a trailer, no, in a trailer, etc, etc. Then there has been discussions about stacking cars in trailers, putting extended living space in them, laundry rooms, etc. finally you have the suggestion that one of our members has a parts bus he wants to make into a matching trailer. Having owned a 26' enclosed trailer before, I'll just say that if you want to destroy your confidence in these trailers, load it up with a 5000 lb car (mine was a '66 Olds Toronado) and a few full size appliances and tow it behind a Suburban or a pickup. Or a big boat trailer, or any of the stamped wheeled, surge braked, sloppy sidewall tired trailers out there. A 7000 lb trailer may nudge a coach around a little but it out right thrashes a Big SUV. I have been in several full size SUVs on boating trips that arrive at the launch with one less tire then they left the house with. Seen more then my share of failed trailers on the side of the road, felt the yank/push of independent braking systems. My father had a boat on a Dayton wheeled trailer that was rated for 1000 lbs more than his 4000 lbs boat, He lost 2 tires in 2 years, then he went to 12 ply lowboy tires and never had a problem with them again, however the sprung suspension and no give sidewalls made for a rocky ride for that boat. The plus side of it was that the boat was self centering, so even if you cranked it up crooked it would end up centered in a few miles, no matter how hard you cranked down the tail strap. Just shows you how much bounce there is, remember this is a 2 ton boat. When I would tow my Toronado in my enclosed trailer with some possessions packed in front (I was doing a lot of project consulting at the time and dragging this around the country with me) and although things were solidly strapped down, there was always obvious signs of movement both from front to back jerk braking and bouncing. You could see it in the marks left by the straps or parts of things that had been bounced off like radio knobs etc. I have moved more time times then I care to count and used to organize large trade show exhibits as well, and let me tell you, I have seen a half empty McDonalds cup make it 3000 miles cross country sitting on a tool box in the back of an air ride trailer that never so much as smeared the ring it left on the surface. There is a night and day difference. Add to this my most embarrassing moment with my Toronado, and my feelings start to become clear. I had un hooked my electric braked trailer and parked it in the designated trailer parking area at my destination. later that week I went to pull the car out (bear in mind I had been told that the brakes locked up when disconnected just like on a tractor/trailer for safety) so I back the car out and feel the trailer shift, look in my rear view mirror to see the world flying by. Me and that trailer (me helpless in the car) went a half a mile down a hill and came to rest on top of an abandoned car on the side of the road. Lucky for me the car it landed on was actually abandon and there was no damage to either the trailer or the Toronado, but talk about an "E" ticket ride. This is when I found out that electric brakes are held on by the battery for a very short duration, and there was really no provisions for checking that the battery was charged, making this a very dubious safety feature. I am thinking of building a coach for more John Madden type reasons, I have learned to hate flying, not afraid of flying, just hate it. How do you get to the airport, how long am I going to wait at the airport, will I make the connector, what will I have to drive when I get where I'm going. I hate peanuts. I'd take the train, but it takes a week to get anywhere. I'd drive but then I have to unload at Motel 6 every night. A coach and a car would give me a way to travel and temporarily relocate myself. I'm an engineer and love the challenge of big projects. Having lived in Switzerland for a while and seeing where they could get an articulated to go settles my fear of driving a road train. I would just like to entertain the notion of a first rate coach with a safe and secure shipping container in tow. (I haven't even gotten into the fact that I kinda like the idea of a bellows in between  | ||
| Ross Carlisle (Ross) (66.238.217.75)
Rating: N/A |
Interesting idea using a low boy semi box. I'm selling my 24' enclosed car trailer so I can build a 20' bus height trailer. The plan is to have a 10' upper deck that will hinge down for ATV's or motorcycles. The lower level will be for a small car. While the semi box idea is interesting, I think I can build it cheaper from scratch with 2 3500# axles. Air brakes would be nice, but I think too expensive when electric brakes will do the job. Last year I saw one of those Kenworth based RV's pulling an RV height, 24' trailer with twin dual wheel axles. It had air ride suspension and air brakes. It had a full length upper level that rode in tracks on the walls. Two winches would lower the entire upper level for loading. After loading, you could raise it to any height then lower it back down on safety pins. When he parked and got ready to drop the ramp door on the trailed, he released the air and the trailer settled down about 6". You could almost drive a car inside without using the ramp door. Neatest thing I ever saw. He had more money in the trailer than I will have in my bus when it's done...And I'm not exactly cutting corners. Ross | ||
| Johnny (67.241.224.132)
Rating: N/A |
What about converting a flatdeck (like they use for moving backhoes)? No, it won't give the ride quality of an air-sprung lowboy, but figuring out how to mount the hitch on it to the bus will be a bit easier! Also, probably cheaper. | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior) (64.229.211.178)
Rating: N/A |
I'd say go right ahead and build it. With the cautionary advice to be sure your plumbing is engineered correctly. There are a couple of less than correct suggestions and assumptions above, which just goes to show you need to be careful where you get advice! You will have to do some re-plumbing and correctly add some components, turning your single vehicle coach plumbing into a tractor trailer style air system. Your air compressor is not much of a concern. Lots of tractors have smaller ones. Research the proper size of piping, sizing of connectors and new air tanks. Greyhound here in Canada is running light duty, low weight, twin-axle freight trailers (under permit) behind their line run buses with two gladhands, air over hydraulic brakes with a pintle hook towing set-up. They don't need the twin axle for weight, they were adding in redundancy. MCI might be able to help you with schematics if they were the ones who modified the buses. happy coaching! buswarrior |