| Author | Message | ||
| Ron in SD (24.220.137.162) Rating: N/A |
With fuel prices on the rise, I am thinking about installing a second fuel tank for just the GenSet and the diesel fired heating. This way I can use dyed fuel and save $.50/gal. If dyed fuel is not readily avaliable I could use normail diesel fuel. The main tank and this tank would not be pumped togeather in any way. Idea? | ||
| Lyle (216.58.212.50) Rating: N/A |
Hi Ron that is what I do works great | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj) (65.194.145.52)
Rating: N/A |
Wow...sounds very cool to me! I also want to go that way. Since I am going to have to hang a second fuel tank anyway, we were just discussing having it dedicated.... ....just to the gen set and heaters and diesel burning stuff. ....dry boondocking will be important to us. A large dedicated tank for all other purposes other.... ....than the main warp engine MAY help defray some expense of the second tank because.... ....like you already said, one can save a $ton$ using red fuel. Would a second 100 gal dedicated red fuel tank be too large? I love a good plan. Thanks for the great idea. Good luck. Henry of CJ | ||
| Robin (205.188.209.11)
Rating: N/A |
is dyed gas cheaper as well for generator or is there such a thing? | ||
| David & Lorna Schinske (Davidschinske) (64.24.236.33)
Rating: N/A |
I don't think that there is such a thing as off-road gasoline. At least I've never heard of it. When we removed the bus air unit in our Eagle we sat and looked at that huge opening. Decided to put the fuel tank for the Webasto there and use the Air ducts that went to the exterior to run the filler tubes (1 on each side of the bus). This would allow us to run off-road fuel(diesel or Kerosine) and on extended stays we can just have a local heating oil company come and either fill us up directly or use a freestanding home fuel tank. Lorna | ||
| modelt (208.18.102.122) Rating: N/A |
Off road gas. Yes you can get off road gas, I'm assuming you are referring to that road tax deduction? When we order our diesel and gas for our equipment and bulk tanks, the dealer takes the taxes off and we sign a tax exempt statement. Also when you file your taxes you can get a refund on fuel purchased for off road equipment that you had paid road taxes on when purchased. Now the rules are always subject to change and might have since we have not ordered fuel for sometime, since we are retired and liquidating the business. Larry | ||
| R Johnstone (Chilebrew) (164.64.178.211)
Rating: N/A |
Larry is correct. Same with propane. (How many of you are running propane-powered buses?) | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A |
Hee hee, I actually did run a propane powered bus 20 years ago! It was a 40' raised-roof (factory!) Superior pusher, got a whopping 4 miles per gallon, was the slowest thing on the road, BUT at the time, since I live in San Diego, I could hop across the border to TJ and tank up at ten cents per gallon!! I put 300 gallons worth of tankage on the bus, and could do a round trip to northern San Fransisco for slightly less than 30 bucks in fuel, which I did over and over again for about 5 years for the renaissance faire circuit that I was involved in. I put around 120,000 miles on the bus doing that. I have to say, propane engines sure are clean and reliable...but these days even my Crown's 220hp diesel makes me feel like I'm on a jet plane as compared to that old beast... MUCH nicer going up the grapevine at 40mph than 5mph.... Of course these days that deal is long gone. Far as I know, gringos can't even buy propane in TJ any more...definitely not for $.10/gallon... Cheers Gary | ||
| Peter E (Sdibaja) (209.242.148.130)
Rating: N/A |
I get my propane in Ensenada, not for price, it is about the same cost as in San Diego, but they will fill my old tanks... Peter | ||
| Ron in SD (12.167.162.2) Rating: N/A |
The only issues that I can think of right now are: 1) Tank should be DOT legal. 2) Number of gallons of fuel on board. Some states may have laws on the transport of fuel over so many gallons. | ||
| Neo/Russ (66.83.53.142) Rating: N/A |
Ron, Why would the tank(s) have to be D.O.T. legal since we are not carrying passengers for hire? And most of us on here are not in the business of building coaches for resale. Many make their own tanks and having a tank certified could cost more than a conversion itself for many folks. Also the polypropelene tanks that come from the ag. or marine field, which are being used by many, don't have D.O.T. certification. Don't get me wrong, the safe way is the only way to handle any fuel. If you know of laws for the amount of fuel that can be moved in a private vehicle, what are they or what states so we can check. FYI, remember many places also have restrictions that do not allow propane, but generally they are posted. i.e. Chesepeake Bay Bridge/Tunnel and other tunnels into N.E. cities. | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A |
Neo, I think the thread has evolved a bit and we're talking about fuel tanks now, specifically propane tanks at this point. No one in his right mind would attempt to make his own... Regarding Ron's comment, It's that there are two basic "styles" of propane tanks, those for mobile and those for fixed installations. Most if not all mobile propane tanks are DOT certified, regardless if they are used in a motorhome or a commercial venture. They have different safety valves, thicker tank walls, and are generally better suited for the type of emergency that may happen on a vehicle (ie, wham). Fixed installation tanks are AMSE certified but because of their construction are not good choices for your bus or motorhome. They are not as heavy, their overflow valves cannot easily be piped to a safe venting location, the maximum amount that they can be filled to is different, they are usually designed with mounting configurations that don't stuff into a conversion easily, and the list goes on. So if you want to do it right, spend the money, use DOT certified tanks, stay alive in that emergency... Cheers Gary | ||
| Ron in SD (12.167.162.2) Rating: N/A |
I think you are going to have less trouble if it is a DOT tank. I would also label it for Generator/Heating use only. That way when you go to fuel it on one give you trouble. Around here dyed fuel tends to be a different pump and the attendent does the fueling. If the tank was labeled they would not give you problems. When I was talking with a friend with the local fire department he said there was a limit on fuel on board. From what I have found it is 300 gals total. He is working on getting the full fuel details. | ||
| Neo/Russ (66.83.53.142) Rating: N/A |
Gary, I agree the subject has gone back and forth, however point #2 in Ron's message seemed to be talking about "fuel" vs. propane. If this thread is now 100% about propane than ignor the rest of this message because it doesn't apply. IMHO, propane belongs at home, not in a R.V. or conversion. (watch that start a fire...pun intended) I'm interested in this thread as I'm about at the point where I need to install primary and secondary (generator)FUEL tanks in my conversion. There is absolutly no tank that will fit where I need them to and they will both have to be fabricated. I have had literally hundreds of marine fuel tanks manufacturered and certified to my designs during my previous career. However these were all for volumes in the 250 to 2000 tanks per year range, not just one. I know those specs like the back of my hand. I also completely understand that there must be fuel tank standards, specifications and requirements for D.O.T. passenger carrying units. I also know the factory units in my bus "met spec", but I wouldn't use them for a second without loosing sleep. Ron said "1) Tank should be DOT legal". What does that mean? And if this is true then an A.B.Y.C. and N.M.M.A. certified poly tank could not be used because it's not D.O.T. approved. What I want to know is since D.O.T. specs are being reffered to, what are they? Or where are they? Like I said, this only applies if Ron's thread in any way was about fuel tanks? | ||
| Neo/Russ (66.83.53.142) Rating: N/A |
Thanks Ron, keep us posted, I was looking at 300 main and about 75 generator. Might change to 250 and 50 depending on your feedback. Good information! Russ | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj) (65.194.145.58)
Rating: N/A |
Yeah, steering this thread back to the start, right now with the economic reality of sky high fuel prices, just maybe it would be worth it to.... ....dedicate a separate diesel tank to run red or untaxed fuel just for the space heater, water heater and diesel gen set. Fifty cents a gallon.... .....(maybe more in the future) is nothing to sneeze at and ignore. Of course it all depends upon each persons individual equation making it $worthwhile$. My plan is to be dry camping or boondocking as Fast Fred calls it. In my case, it may pay to spend that $500.00+ on a second tank just for the "house" functions of the coach. How about 100 gallons for the chassis and 100 gallons red for the house with zero capacity to switch tanks and run illegally? Other individual situations may dicate other solutions. My coach may be a diesel electric bus with no propane, thus it may work for me. Thanks all...and...CROWNS FOREVER!! He he he  | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior) (64.229.215.21)
Rating: N/A |
On the separate fuel tank front... Be careful about the exact wording of the US Haz Mat and Canadian TDG regulations. That other tank that is not part of fueling the vehicle may be captured by the regs, and you don't have a training certificate, a shipping document, proper tankage or placards, if you run a large enough tank. Being an RV may not be worth an exemption, if you stray outside the limits. You also might not like the attention that a dyed fuel tank in a highway vehicle will attract. Your friendly gas jockey is an excellent source of info for the local law enforcement community. If you give an enforcement officer enough reason, he or she will muster up the courage to look closely at an RV, old folks with money and political influence be damned.... "Well, out-of-towner, that's a real pretty sticker on that tank, but I can't see where those lines go, so I'm saying it's going in the engine. Magistrate will straighten this all out in the morning, park it over there, and get in the back of the cruiser." If there is a way to stay under the radar, best not to attract unnecessary attention? happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Jim Wilke (12.46.52.74) Rating: N/A |
Well, I would think that the most dyehard (pun intended) enforcement officer would back off if you dropped the main engine's fuel filter & it was not red! But why does everybody worry so much about being stopped & closely scrutinized? In the last 20 years (at least 500,000 miles) I have never been stopped by anyone except if I was speeding over 10MPH over the limit. And never except at US Customs has anyone wanted to examine the vehicle. As best I can figure, the DOT guys have no authority over non commercial vehicles. Regular cops don't pay much attention to motorhomes. | ||
| FAST FRED (209.26.115.109) Rating: N/A |
When the funny business in Irac is over the 85% of the Irac oil wells that are in disrepair will slowly come back on line. Might take an extra year if Sadam blows a lot of wells , but IT WILL HAPPEN. With oil long term heading back to $15 to $20 a barrel it probably would be best to carry the fuel you will need , rather than a "savings bank" amount. Every day there are more proven reserves in the ground , yet were pumping billions into alternate energy schemes. And one of them will eventually be financially sucessfull , when that happens the oil will shoot to $5.00 a barrel. Big tanks might save some bucks today , but tomorrow they could just be huge & in the way. FAST FRED | ||
| modelt (208.18.102.63) Rating: N/A |
Fred, I would like to think your right (5.00 a barrel), but you know the clowns in Washington well have to tax us to retrieve the cost of the war on our backs, rather than sell the oil to pay. France will then come in and want there share also, since we cost them their sweet little deals. Oh I strayed from the topic!!!!!!!! Larry | ||
| Henry R. Bergman, Jr. (Henryofcj) (65.194.145.44)
Rating: N/A |
That's all right. Yah outa hear me when I get "wound up". Bet ya the price of #2 NEVER goes back down. (??) Theys gots us good! Sossss, would saving potential $$$ on legal red fuel in our coaches save enough $$$ to help pay for that 2nd tank? Hummmmmmmmm? Thanks. | ||
| ChineseElite (24.68.144.216) Rating: N/A |
*dream* I run, and have run, many smaller diesels (IE 300SD, The Volvo, Ford vans), and the price here is killing us ( the transport industry ). $0.70 a litre, canadian. Its getting to the point where you can't fill up your tank without a day's pay in hand, because its so expensive... Now, think about commercial bus companies, trucking companies, and transport companies. For example, Greyhound Lines. Lets assume that thier coaches have a 700 litre tank (The 102DL3's usually run about a 674, if I am not mistaken). Assuming they have 3000 coaches in operation (nearer to 3500, including the Canadian fleet), and fueled up every 3 days. That would be 6 300 000 litres of fuel every 3 days. $4 410 000 every 3 days, spent on diesel. This is only for Greyhound USA, and not including the thousands of private charters, trucking and transport companies. Lets not forget our trusty RV'ers and conversionists, and we are talking about a HUGE market for diesel. Assuming Greyhound, and the many unions got sick of paying $0.70 a litre for fuel, and all got together and just stopped thier companies im protest. We would be talking about losses in the tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars per day. Would this ever happen? Probably not. However, a little food for thought next time you go to fuel up your bus. | ||
| Bus Jock (198.81.26.174)
Rating: N/A |
WHY, Why not just get the tax back???? why go to all that trougle to make separate tank and find the red fuel. (at a different station etc) Just send in the paperwork and get the refund on taxes paid. The federal tax is refundable on your income tax form, the state varies. Here in WA we need to open a tax account and fill out a tax form (easy) there is no state income tax to apply on.. In VA we just claimed it on our state tax. I never could easily get red fuel for my saw mill or tractors. Also got gas refund for my forklift. Over the past few years living in the bus, we have gotton many $$ back from the feds and state for the fuel used in the Webasto. Jock Fugitt | ||
| Ron in SD (12.167.162.2) Rating: N/A |
Jock, How do you tell what is used by the Webasto and the GenSet? Most people are unable to get a guess on their milage let alone how much their genset uses. On the refer units on semi truck have a second tank for refer unit. When filling the refer tank we have a different recept for that fuel. | ||
| Bus Jock (198.81.26.174)
Rating: N/A |
Ron, The federal form spells it all out and gives examples of the calcs. Of course you need GOOD mileage numbers. You must have kept good records, We just submitted Our summer milage compared to winter milage..(our winter milage is sometimes only a couple of MPG, due to most of fuel going to the heater.)(about 0.3 GPH) I made an excel spreadsheet for each months fuel, and miles driven, Let it calculate all the data. Sent the spread sheet attached to the form. etc.. We have been turning in gas tax refund forms for about 30 years now. Just do it right, and no problems. I don't see where our tax forms are filed or I would get the form number for you. If you email me I will ask Kay where she has them filed. Jock Fugitt | ||
| Bus Jock (198.81.26.174)
Rating: N/A |
The Fuel tax federal is: Publication 378 "Fuel tax credits and refunds" I believe the pub also contains the form you need is: form 4136 Of course states will vary Jock Fugitt |