| Author |
Message |
Herman (193.251.14.221)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 1:52 am: | |
If you do, what kind of speed do you get downloading and uploading? Please specify in *kilobytes*, not -kilobits-. And what did it cost you? |
RJ Long (Rjlong) (24.127.74.29)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 2:13 am: | |
Herman -
Scott Whitney has some kind of satellite internet dish on his bus. You can reach him via his website:
www.dustyfoot.com
HTH,
RJ
PD4106-2784
Fresno CA |
Chris (157.130.118.2)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 10:52 am: | |
groundcontrol.com has its system specs on their site. It also says that satellite upload/downloads are illegal, and wont be legal for awhile. Anyone know anything about that? My PCS phone is wireless web capable, so whats the difference? Same thing with any GPS system, seeing as how some transmit and recieve signals. I can't justify having to pull over and wait 10 minutes to establish an uplink for $100 a month. But, anyway, here are the speeds for their system:
DOWNLOAD SPEEDS
Business Basic = 400 Kbps
Business Plus = 750 Kbps
Business Premium = 1000 Kbps
UPLOAD SPEEDS
Upload speeds on any DirecWay system is about 30 to 90 Kilobits per second.
This is about twice as fast as a standard 56K modem. |
jared (69.20.138.21)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 3:05 pm: | |
As far as the legality issue is concerned with Motosat and illegal upload/download, President Bush signed an executive order recently that allowed Motosat (and arguably others) to build these systems IF they could guarantee correct electronic locks to the satellites. Check out the Federal Registry for the exact executive order.
There is a high demand in government and military circles for a Motosat style device.
The reason it has been illegal until the executive order is because the technology was questionable. Any slight misalignment has the potential to drag down the entire network for all users. Basically, these companies were selling a technology that was still in a Beta version. There are also liability issues since the dishes are parabolic transmitters and any yahoo that might decide to mount his dish while pointing it directly at his body might end up with some decent EM radiation doses. With the automatic electronic tuning in the Motosat, this issue has been solved, albiet expensively.
-jared 1988 RTSII |
Scott Whitney (66.82.9.42)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 1:42 pm: | |
Where on the Ground Control site does it say that satellite uploads are illegal? I use/sell the Datastorm product which is the exact same system as Ground Control (which they rebrand). In fact, I refer all my new customers to GC as their ISP.
What is "illegal" (well, not against the law per se, but against the rules) is unlicensed people setting up fixed dishes in a mobile environment. For example, someone dragging out a standard DirecWAY dish out of a bay, setting it on the ground in front of their rig, and pointing it in the general direction to get a signal. This can cause problems because the unit has not been properly aligned and cross-poled. (I'll spare the technical details of a cross-polarization, but it is an important step to ensuring that the transmit signal does not screw up the works.)
Anyway the dish MotoSAT builds (called a Datastorm) and all other dishes that may have been rebranded and called something else, despite being the same hardware, ARE certified and OK for use now. BTW, to add to the confusion, the dish is the exact same thing as a standard DirecWAY dish except it is on a motorized, electronically controlled mount. Thru GPS, electronic compass, and electronic tilt sensors it fine tunes the find/peak/cross-pol process better than a human could ever do.
I just ran a speed test:
download speed : 1042528 bps, or 1042 kbps.
A 127.2 KB/sec transfer rate.
upload speed : 24150 bps, or 24 kbps.
Results may not be typical, your mileage may vary, yada, yada, yada. Advertised download speed is about 400kbps. I just get lucky sometimes. Always fun to break the Mega-bit download barrior! Upload is always quite slow. . .
Clear as mud?
: ^ )
Scott |
FAST FRED (209.26.115.198)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 4:01 pm: | |
"I'll spare the technical details of a cross-polarization, but it is an important step to ensuring that the transmit signal does not screw up the works."
Actually as a number of folks are interested in using a stationary dish as their camper mobile system , a review of the procedures and any specialized equippment would be really usefull.
FAST FRED |
Scott Whitney (66.82.9.40)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 6:16 pm: | |
OK, but I have to preface this by saying that doing what you describe above, "using a stationary dish as their camper mobile system" may eventually get their accounts shut down. A fixed dish is not approved for mobile use and a set of Hughes documents called, "Transportable Fixed Earth Station" describes what is and is not allowed.
Having said that, each dish (actually the modems) is mated to a Billing ID. Essentially the billing ID is an account number. The Billing ID is classifed in the Hughes database as either a fixed dish or a transportable dish. In other words, Hughes knows which dishes are authorized to move and which ones are not. (you can actually move a fixed dish once every 6 months if you move residence, but it has to be reinstalled by a certified installer at the new location)
So given that each account is classifed as either fixed or mobile, you may wonder how Hughes will know if a dish moves. They do because of a process called "ranging". This is where the system adjusts the timing of the signal. Each time a dish moves, this distance from the satellite changes, and hence the time it takes for a signal to travel thru the atmosphere. So what I am trying to say is that the system: 1) knows if you have moved and 2) knows if you are supposed to be moving.
Whether Hughes will enforce people who move and are not authorized to move is another matter. Only time will tell. But they risk having their accounts canceled and owning an expensive bird bath.
Why is this important? (some may think it is to protect a small market of very expensive dishes i.e. Datastorms) But there is more to it than that. If someone points a dish incorrectly, and their transmit signal arrives at the wrong time (on top of someone else's signal) then the data is corrupted and has to be resent. If more and more data is screwed up, it can slow the whole system down and be a detriment to everyone. That is why it is important to have to dish configured correctly. Keep in mind, unlike a TV dish that is only passively receiving data, this one is transmitting as well. Its a whole other ball of wax.
But I still have not answered the question: I am not a satellite/radio engineer, but this is my laymen's understanding of it. . . Cross-pol refers to a technique of isolating the signal to be 90 degrees out of phase with the adjacent signal. One signal comes in horizontally, the next vertically etc. So the idea of cross-polarizing is to set the maximum amount of out of phase with the adjacent signals. This is to reduce any bleed-over of the signals. Anyway, I think that is how it works.
Cross-pol is achieved once the dish is pointed at the correct satellite and the signal has been peaked by making very small adjustments to the dish. Also, the skew (tilt of the oval shape) of the dish must be set correctly. Once the dish is aligned, but before the transmitter is enabled, the dish requests a cross-pol test. It may go thru several adjustments and test failures before the signal is isolated properly and given a passing grade. Only then, when it has passed cross-pol, is the transmitter enabled.
There is no special equipment one would need to use a fixed dish on an RV. You would want the dish at least six feet off the ground, preferrable on the RV roof. You would want a laptop you could bring up to the dish so you could move the dish and monitor the signal on the laptop. Then you would need to run the cross-pol software and make adjustments to the dish as necessary until a passing grade was achieved. Or, you could just skip the cross-pol step entirely and run the chance of being off alignment and screwing up other people's signal.
Anyway, hope that is not too much detail (and politics) for a short question. Basically, there is no special equipment required other than the dish, modems and a PC. The procedure is a matter of running software, taking measurements of the signal and making adjustments as needed. The purpose is to ensure the system remains reliable and stable for everyone.
Hope that helps!
Scott
BTW, a couple of years ago, I had planned to move a fixed dish around too. But then I became involved as a Beta tester for the Datastorm. So my views may not be totally objective, but I am trying to explain the facts as best I can! |
Chris (68.61.104.53)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 8:00 pm: | |
Scott-
Here's what Ground Control has to say in their FAQ's section (link below):
http://www.groundcontrol.com/prod_ig2500faq_001.htm
QUESTION: Can I be traveling down the road and be online at the same time?
ANSWER: No. You must be parked. In-Motion 2-Way satellite transmission will not be approved for many years to come. But we find that this is not a major problem with many who are seeking Internet connectivity in a mobile environment.
Being able to establish an uplink while mobile would be awesome- it's the whole reason I was looking into it. Can you guys recommend anyone else (besides ground control) with possibly better prices/service, etc. Also, seeing as how their dish isn't enclosed (that "dome-thing"), I'm sure it isn't capable of operating at highway speeds, anyway.
---Chris |
FAST FRED (209.26.115.225)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 5:39 am: | |
The boat folks (big boats cruise ships & tankers) have the gear , but its really expensive.
"The procedure is a matter of running software, taking measurements of the signal and making adjustments as needed. The purpose is to ensure the system remains reliable and stable for everyone. "
How do you get the program to check the signal quality ,polarazation ect?
FAST FRED |
Gary Carter (68.26.239.113)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 1:24 pm: | |
There is another system that uses a dome. More expensive than Moto-Sat. They do advertise in FMCA magazine |
Jayjay (198.81.26.108)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 1:28 pm: | |
A word about security/encryption techniques. Hughes has the option of pulling the old Ashton-Tate ploy for illegals by installing a decading/timing loop batch file that constantly speeds up the CPU, 'til it overheats to destruction! Yup'... a spendy bird bath. Cheers...JJ |
Doug Dickinson (Dougd470) (65.161.188.11)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 3:13 pm: | |
Scott and I have a minor disagreement going about "legal" vs "contractual", but the end results are not that far apart. The FCC does not prohibit the use ofr portable Datastorm usits, but Hughes, which owns the sat does not allow it from a contractual standpoint. Scott supplied me with the documents and that's the way it is!. The FCC doesn't really care, since the interlock on the system is that you have to see and receive the bird before your unit can tansmit. The crosspolorization issue I am not really familiar with, but crossed-pole operations usually will shut off a unit. The Datastorm unit just used the imbedded troubleshooting and alignment protocal to aim it - it just uses the information to do an automaed point, rather than a manual point.
As for Hughes shutting someone off - well, the jury is out on that. As Scott says, it is something they think they can do but we will see when the time comes. VSAT terminals can determine it, if they are looking for a move (large distance move that is).
Anyway - the bottom line is that Hughes is not allowing portable/mobile operation just yet, and it will be (IMHO) a short time until that changes. We have to let the industry grow before we get the full benefits. Remember VCRs? Beta vs VHS?
Incidently, the reason that Hughes requires a "certified installer" is to comply with FCC RF-EME rules and to maintain control over that issue.
Scott - sorry I dodn't get back to you, but, like you said, we are fairly close in concept, our nomenclature is somewhat different.
I go back on the road next week for a month or more.
I think the datastorm unit is a great idea, but it is a little pricey for me right now. |
Doug Dickinson (Dougd470) (65.161.188.11)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 3:19 pm: | |
Let me correct myself - when I say Directway is not legal in a mobile environment - I am referring to a standard terresterial unit, not a unit that is approved by Hughes for mounting on a mobile platform. There is a difference.
oops!
Doug
St Louis MC9 |
Scott Whitney (66.82.9.29)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 11:04 pm: | |
Doug, I think we are in agreement, actually. What I said was, "What is "illegal" (well, not against the law per se, but against the rules) is unlicensed people setting up fixed dishes in a mobile environment. " This was in response to someone else saying there was some legal issue. You are correct as far as I know - it has to do with contracts and not legalities.
Fred, the Datastorm software automatically starts the cross-pol test after it has peaked on the signal. If a person were to manually point a standard fixed dish, they'd need to know how to access the cross-pol routine. Every end user has the software on their machine, but it takes a program switch that is iniated upon launch of the software to activate the manual cross-pol testing routine. If you want exact instructions on how to do a cross pol, please e-mail me and I'll explain. But a word of caution - users should not initiate a cross-pol test unless they are sure they'll pass. Otherwise, they run the risk of disabling their transmitters and not being able to get back on-line. Generally, the only time anyone would want to do a cross pol, is just after aquiring the satellite.
Chris, there is a system that will work in motion. It is made by KVH (see www.kvh.com) for the marine industry but also works in RVs. The equipment cost is a bit more, but where the KVH system really gets expensive is the per minute costs upwards of $.69/min. in addition to monthly fees. I calculated it out and it could cost a user thousands of dollars a month for using the Net a few hours per day. In-motion comes at a price. The KVH system is in offered by Camping World and others.
BTW, today I just received a letter forwarded from Ned Kazer, Hughes Senior Director, Channel Sales. It is now offical and in writing that the Datastorm passes all of Hughes's requirements for a mobile system. The letter cites "goverment regulatory standards" but does not mention the FCC by name.
Scott |
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