| Author |
Message |
john (172.156.219.235)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 8:40 pm: | |
Is there anyhere who doesn't have a jake brake on their coach? Or has driven a coach without one?
When going down a steep hill, what is the best stratagy? I heard the downshifting on a diesel does almost nothing since there is no air constriction. |
two dogs (66.90.210.184)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 9:01 pm: | |
I'll be glad to tell you the correct way to go down hills...be willing to teach anything to anybody that wants to learn something...the people that already know everything...are the ones that'll hurt you ... 20 years in a bigtruck, none of them had jake brakes..
write me at dosdogs1@juno.com |
Ray D (205.171.72.27)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 9:08 pm: | |
Please post on the board, a lot of us would like to hear your advice. |
two dogs (66.90.210.184)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 9:27 pm: | |
REally??????I've said stuff before & some people seem to think I need to shut up..
When you are climbing a hill 99% of the time signs will warn you before you get to the summit,it'll say something like 10% downhill grade TRUCKS 30 m.p.h. (THIS MEANSYOU TOO BUSNUTS)BEFORE you start down that hill...you should be in the gear that tops out at 30 m.p.h.& in the far right lane..with your flashers on...you've got weight!! you are not in your little car...the farther you go down that hill ,the faster the bus is going to try to go...just put a little pressure on the brake ,just enough to keep you at 30...if you aren't scarred...you shouldn't be driveing...you have 36,000 or 30,000 pounds &gravity....that is the most dangerous part of driveing cross country...down the hills...everything else is a piece of cake...I've had some new truck drivers say...yeah...I went down that 70...STUPID PERSON...run away from this guy...nobody is going to make fun of you for going slow...I'm still here & alot aren't |
Luke Bonagura (Lukeatuscoach) (12.90.2.226)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 9:51 pm: | |
Hey Two Dogs:
Don't Shut UP!!!!! This converted coach community needs your HELP!!!!
I keep making the same SPEECH all of the time on various topics for those who are willing to listen!!!
When I came into the bus industry in the early 1960's. I read the driver's manuals when all we had were stick shifts. Every one told the driver (ME), that the most effective BRAKE on the COACH was the TRANSMISSION!!! (That is Stick Shift Folks, not automatics).
From there, it is incumbent upon the driver to read "Road Signs" which indicate steep down-grades ahead. Be prepared and act accordingly.
I will make the following point & then get the heck out of here tonight:
Greyhound operated from coast to coast with all sorts of equipment before the Jake Brake was ever invented. That included (lets start in 1953) 4104's, 4106's, 4107's, MC-5's, 7's, 8's, 9's.
In fact, come to think of it, and I may be wrong, I don know of any model coach that Greyhound ever operated that was equipped with Jakes Brakes????
Food for thought, and I am out of here!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Drive for the conditions your are experiencing!!
And, I Hope it HELPS!!!!!
LUKE at US COACH |
Scott Whitney (66.82.9.24)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 10:10 pm: | |
My bus has no jake. Wish it did. I have VS2-8 tranny and it behaves like a three speed. Some hills that are around 5% and straight, I'll do in "third". (I put it in quotes because the gear is really called overdrive)
Steeper hills in the 6%-7% range with any curves, I'll do in "second" (really direct drive).
I have to maintain the gear by using the service brakes. If I let it coast too fast, it will shift up on me. Then I have to brake even harder to get it to downshift again. So I watch my speed very carefully and brake accordingly to keep it below the 2nd/3rd shift point.
Lets say my target max speed is 45mph. I brake hard to bring speed back to about 39mph. Then I let speed pick up slowly back to about 44mph and then brake hard again to bring it back down to 39mph.
If I find that the speed is climing back to my target speed too fast, in other words, I am having to brake too often, then I decrease my target speed down to, say, 35mph. Ideally, I like to only brake every 30-45 seconds or so and hopefully only for a few seconds.
I am no experienced bus driver, nor am I an an "old trucker". I just do what I have learned and what feels safe in my coach. I have tested this on such hills as Tehacapi, Baker, the one outside Albuquerque etc. Now if I had a jake, I could probably do those hills without touching the service brakes.
Your mileage may vary.
Scott
P.S. what ever you do, make sure your brakes are adjusted.
P.P.S. my "next" coach will have a jake. |
RJ Long (Rjlong) (24.127.74.29)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 10:10 pm: | |
I'll add some additional "BTDT" to this thread:
Basically, go down the hill in the same gear you used to climb it.
Keep the engine away from the governor, especially in automatic-equipped coaches. Automatics WILL upshift if they sense you're going to over-rev the engine, even if you've got it locked down in the lower gear manually.
Two schools of thought on downhill braking, both have their proponents and detractors. Note that each is based on the transmission being in the proper gear for the grade:
~ "Stab braking" = keeping vehicle w/in a 5-10 mph window by stabbing the brakes to bring speed down, then releasing and allowing speed to creep back up, repeat process.
~ "Steady braking" = keeping vehicle at a steady speed using very light braking effort.
Which works better? The controversy rages on, but the CHP did a study about 15 years ago comparing the two on an 5-mile 6% grade, and found that brake drum temps were about equal at the bottom of the grade.
Two Dogs is right about reading the signs!!!
(TD - here in CA, using flashers for slower-moving traffic is not required for buses or trucks, but is a good idea anyway. . .)
You don't HAVE to have a Jake, but it sure is nice to be able to drop off a hill using one and never have to touch the brakes because the Jake's doing the work. Adds a nice "safety cushion" to the drive - but BEWARE: the Jakes sometimes quit at the most inopportune moment!
HTH,
RJ
PD4106-2784
Fresno CA |
two dogs (66.90.213.153)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 10:48 pm: | |
one more thing guys ...lite pressure on the brake, watch your spedo. if your target speed is 30...when it gets to 33 or 34 apply a little more pressure...when you keep pressure on the brakes all the way down, you don't expose your shoes to air....if they get air,fire is not far away..
most of you guys know about BUSINESS and I don't. but I know about this..
two dogs |
Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.120.11)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 6:24 am: | |
I have often heard the advice: "go down the hill in the same gear you used to climb it"-- but does that really make any sense for all buses? Not really! Some of our older buses might only be able to climb a steep hill at 15 mph in first gear, does that mean they have to go down in first gear? A newer bus might do the same hill in 2-3rd gear at 45-55 mph. And what if you have repowered and can climb the same hill at 65-70 mph in 4-5th gear? I think that old saying should be tossed and you should simply look at the recommended max speed for trucks and keep your bus at that speed (or a little more if your bus can handle it). |
two dogs (66.90.216.72)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 8:26 am: | |
That guy has it right...if in doubt what speed to go down..pull over & wait till a bigtruck goes by & follow him down..about 500 yards behind him..one other thing trucks have better brakes than buses..and they have stick shift...you guys with automatics ,you are at a DISADVANTAGE...see ya' at the bottom of the hill,you can buy me a cup of coffee.. |
John Feld (150.199.209.13)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 1:30 pm: | |
First thing I learned about brakes ... never go faster than you can stop. Many things determine the stopping distance, curves, corners, lenght of grade, etc. What if you blew a tire going down the grade, could you control it maxed out??? Drive like your life depends on it, it does.
Old truckers had different brake pads, they contained asbestos to insulate from the heat, newer shoes do not. As a brake shoe heats-up its ability to stop decresses. Hot shoes can fail in a second, leaving you with no brakes at all. I choose a speed that I would go down the hill if I had half or less braking power.
True, a truck has more braking power because they have more weight, more axle's, more tires on the road, etc. But, all is relative. An engine is normally rated at braking horsepower, the larger the engine the more braking power. Like pulling power, the engine has a power curve, a RPM range that affords maximum power, either pulling or braking, stay within that range, don't max it out.
Warning signs are there for a reason, states are reluctant to post them, most times only after several people have died, heed them, they are there to save your life, and others lives. How many times have you folowed someone down a steep grade and smelled hot brakes, or seem smoke comming off the brakes? Back off, thats an accident looking for a place to happen. Which brings to mind, lets say you are going down a long steep grade with curves, could you stop if you go around the curve and the road is blocked? Nobody looks to have an accident, but people are killed every day by accidents.
You are driving a vehical designed for commercial use, its not your sport car, it ain't even an SUV, thats why commercial drivers have to be trained and tested. Just because you are exempted from the commercial testing does not mean you don't need to learn skills that insure your safty, and others. Yes, I know, there's a bunch of truckers I don't want to be around either.
Hint: If you do overheat your brakes going down a grade, don't stop at the bottom and put on new shorts, keep going to allow your brakes time to cool in the air. By setting your brakes when overheated you run the risk of warping the brake drum. If you must stop, use a tire block to hold the coach, don't set the air brake until the shoes and drums cool. Be aware also, the shoes can catch fire if they are covered with oil or grease, have a fire extinguisher handy. In extreem cases even a tire can blow or catch fire from the heat.
Your coach maxed out for its rated weight is no different that a semi maxed out for its weight, if your passing loaded semi's on the downgrade maybe you best re-think your speed.
John 4104 - no Jake |
Scott Whitney (66.82.9.25)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 9:03 pm: | |
Geoff makes a good point. I have heard the "same gear down as you went up" advice many times. I guess I always figured it didn't apply to my bus. There were times when I did have to go up in "first" (hydraulic) gear and I certainly didn't want to go down in first, which maxes out at 20mph.
I can see this rule of thumb making sense for manual trannies and automatics with at least four speeds. But for us guys with Vee drive "three speed" trannies, the rule of thumb is not quite as applicable, in my opinion.
Scott
P.S. also there are quite a number of hills that are much more dangerous and steep on one side than theu are on the other side - ie Cuesta grade on 101 near San Luis Obispo. It is a cake-walk going down hill northbound, but going down hill southbound is a bit harry - esecially with all the construction going on. |
two dogs (66.90.211.111)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 10:08 pm: | |
yep
the grapevine,north of L.A. & I-70 comeing east into Denver BOTH,,,fool you .......1/2 way down ,they flatten out & you think it's all over & ya' made it down the hill......only to find out,after you've shifted up & built up some steam....there still a steep dangerous hill & now ,you are going 60 down it...talk about pucker string... |
RJ Long (Rjlong) (24.127.74.29)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 10:48 pm: | |
I love going over the Grapevine. . . always interesting to see who manages to screw themselves up by not paying attention. . .
I-80 WB from Reno over Donner Summit and down into Sacratomato can be real entertaining, too! Almost 70 MILES of 4, 5 and 6% grades to test your "pucker factor", as Two Dogs likes to call it.
As for the "go down the hill in the same gear you went up", I'll agree with everyone that it's a phrase and safety comment that's been around forever, and it MAY or MAY NOT be right for every vehicle and every situation. Lots of times a stick shift coach that climbs a grade sittin' on the governor in 2nd gear can safely come back down using 3rd and a little light braking. Using 4th, however, may have a noticable effect on the pucker sphincters!!
HTH,
RJ
PD4106-2784
Fresno CA |
two dogs (66.90.216.60)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 7:15 am: | |
most of you got the idea...but,, the "going up the hill thingy" doesn't belong here..if it says bigtrucks 30...ya' put it in the gear that tops out at 30..and if you got a automatic,and it shifts out at 34, don't let it get to 34 ,lite pressure on the brake ,all the way down,and you guys that think a jake is the answer...ya' still go down the hill at the POSTED speed... |
04 bud (152.163.252.163)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 7:14 pm: | |
Hey all my two cents ....with my 04 and race car in tow i climb the grapevine in so cal in 2nd over the top, get to the warning signs 6% 5 miles ahead im back in 3rd at about 35.....i run my jakes all the way down till i pass the grapevine exit. In many trips over and back ive been lucky and thave not ever had to touch the foot brake, I know its there and figger ive got a couple quick stops in me if i need too.
04 bud |
Tom Caffrey (Pvcces) (64.114.233.236)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 10:54 pm: | |
I think that what a lot of people forget is that the axle weight rating is not just for carrying the load without breaking, it's also the rating for the brakes on the axle.
If you want to run downhill faster than the truck warning signs say, you need more very dependable braking than the axle has if you are already carrying near the axle limit.
One of the things that we like about the 4106 is that we have so much payload left. With the Jake, we get to the bottoms of these grades with the brakes still cool and could make a hard stop pretty quickly if we really needed to.
For what it's worth.
Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
Suncatcher |
FAST FRED (67.75.111.29)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 3:53 pm: | |
I agree with Tom , With our fairly light coach there is little problem stopping from 70 , rapidly 3 or 4 times in a row.
The air drag at 70 (same as the 4 wheels are traveling) is huge compared to 35 .(4X)
We blast down most hills with the cars , stab breaking from 70 down to 65 , and have plenty of breaks left at the bottom.
However on the REAL hills of the Rockies this might be exciting , but for the tiny 5, mile 6% downhills on the east coast ,LETS ROLL !!
Works for me , with the light Sportscar 4106 ,
BUT this style might be a death wish in another heavier brand or a poorly maintained anything.
Caviat Emptor
FAST FRED |
Roger PD4104-174 (205.188.208.39)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 5:29 am: | |
There has been a lot of good advice given on this topic, but I would like to offer my “two cents”. Knowledge is a great thing. Go to your nearest truck stop or Camping World and purchase the “Mountain Directory West”. It offers locations and descriptions of over 400 mountain passes and steep grades in eleven western states. It is comforting to know what’s ahead of you.
Roger PD4104-174 |
Mark R. Obtinario (Cowlitzcoach) (204.245.228.228)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 9:37 am: | |
Just some more food for thought.
As you use your brakes and they start to warm up, the brake drums will expand with the heat.
As the brakes heat up you are going to need a longer stroke to keep the same pressure on the drums. The stroke can increase by more than one inch, far enough some times to make your brakes almost ineffective. If your brakes were out of adjustment before they got hot, you could be approaching a very deadly situation as you head down the hill.
It can also cause problems with over adjustment if you have automatic slack adjusters.
The moral of the story is two fold--First and foremost, make sure your brakes are properly adjusted at all times. Second, go slow all the way down the hill.
It is important to get to where you going. It isn't important to get there fast.
Mark O. |
two dogs (66.90.217.34)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 1:27 pm: | |
ya' all have fun out there....you can be at the bottom of the hill ,drinking folgers with Two Dogs,or you can be the one everybody is pointing at |
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