| Author | Message | ||
| Dallas Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 114 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 75.91.196.81  Rating: N/A |
I have come into possession of a beautiful old Osage Orange tree that is standing dead, and has been for two years. For those of you who don't recognize the name, Osage Orange is also known as Bodark, Hedge Apple and Bois de Arc (SP?). I took off one limb and have been playing with it, and it has the most beautiful burls and figuring. Unfortunately, it's tough on saw blades... It's probably the hardest wood in North America, and one piece I cut, then sanded with 150 grit is so smooth you can't find any saw marks. I want to use this wood for the doors and drawer fronts on my new cabinets, and am wondering how thick I should actually cut it, as I weighed one 2 X 7/8 X 14" chunk and it was almost 2 pounds. this stuff is heavy! If I cut it to 5/8" will that be thick enough to be stable in a cabinet door? If I cut the drawer front's at 3/8" and back them with 1/2" plywood, will I have a problem down the line? Will this wood crown, twist and pull if I butt joint it side by side for the doors and add dowels? Hey, I'm just learning this wood working stuff! Be gentle! | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 134 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
Dallas What beautiful wood. If you have a band saw cut it thin enough to use as a veneer laminated over plywood. More coverage this way and less weight 3/16 is a good thickness to make your first cut then sand for thickness Les | ||
| Larry & Lynne Dixon (Larry_d)
Registered Member Username: Larry_d Post Number: 278 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 108.1.170.169  Rating: N/A |
Dallas I know a fellow who cuts most of his own hard wood for cabinets. He usually will cut two or more chunks the thickness he wants to use and keeps them in the warm house, stickered, to see what will happen. Will also cut most and leave it set a few days before sanding and finishing. Sure does sound pretty. Good luck Larry | ||
| Rob King (Skykingrob)
Registered Member Username: Skykingrob Post Number: 56 Registered: 10-2006 Posted From: 72.161.11.181 Rating: N/A |
Dallas Being from the Ozarks of Missouri, we have a ton of these trees. The wood is very nice in many ways but as you say, very tough. This is why it has been used for years as fence posts. It is almost totally resistant to weather, rots slowly and has huge strength. However,some questions for you to ponder. Are you sure you want to spend the amount of money in blades/equipment to mill this wood? For example, a brand new chainsaw blade can make about 2-4 cuts in bodark before it doesn't cut anymore. In fact, I think I could cut more concrete with the blade than I could bodark. LOL Most people that use bodark do things like turning bowls, candle sticks, etc. Now to your original question. Yes it is very stable especially when it already has a 2 year cure. Yes it is very heavy so you will need to veneer it somehow. I have seen here locally drawer fronts/doors where they use 1/8"-3/16" pieces and laminate them to both sides of 3/8" A-B or C-D plywood then take take a thicker piece, usually 1/4", and laminate it to the sides. On the sides they will often route a half circle on the front edge that faces the front of the drawer and make it extend beyond the front of the drawer about 1/8" as a decorative design element. For cabinet stiles/rails I would still do the 3/4" because you're only going to use 11/2"-2" wide pieces as stiles/rails. Now to the application of the stiles to the cabinet carcas. I would go to the local big box store or order from various carpentry catalogs a Kreg jig. It is going to cost about $100-120 for the good jig and all the parts but it will save a ton of labor time. It is alot easier to drive screws than trying to align dowels especially on cabinet stiles/rails. Finishing the bodark with just a clear finish (poly, lacquer or varnish in that order) without stain will develop a very rustic look similar to knotty pine or hickory but the wood is much more durable than pine. Hope this helps and good luck with your project if you decide to move forward. It will be beautiful but is gonna take time and resources. Rob 91 Prevost LeMirage XL Missouri | ||
| Dave Walker (Chrome_dome)
Registered Member Username: Chrome_dome Post Number: 113 Registered: 3-2010 Posted From: 67.174.144.159  Rating: N/A |
Dallas, you could cut 2 or even 3 thin pieces and glue and press fully dried together with grain in opposite directions. Keep pressed until completely dry then run through horizontal sander to smooth finish.Opposing grains tend to not warp or split as easy and actually are stronger than one piece the same thickness. You could even run pieces through an edge planer and make large sizes by putting multiple pieces together. And 5/8" would be good. Remember with wood it is always moving and moisture swells it up and dryness shrinks it. So if you put a panel in as in cabinet doors, don't nail it in r glue it let it float in the frame. Let it be surrounded with grooved wood stiles or trim that are glued at the joints. Or make them solid but in the layers. Dave (Message edited by Chrome_dome on October 20, 2010) | ||
| Jack Conrad (Jackconrad)
Registered Member Username: Jackconrad Post Number: 1345 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 75.203.198.8  Rating: N/A |
Boy, does that this bring back memories. We used those for fence post when I was growing up on the farm. We made sure we put them in the ground and got the fence staples drove in before they dried completely. Once fully dried, the staples would just bend after being driven in about 1/2". Should make some beautiful cabinets. Jack | ||
| Dallas Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 115 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 75.91.196.81 Rating: N/A |
Thanks guys for all the help! I have a Kreg Jig and use it pretty often, it's one of my favorite tools and ranks right up there with my Drill Doctor! I like the idea of cutting thin slats and gluing pressing them together. My next question is about end grain butcher block counter top. I would like to use some of this wood to make a couple of 20" X 20" squares of end grain butcher block to inlay into the counter. What would be the best glue to use for it? Would the Gorilla brand wood glue be good? Or should I go back to the old standby Elmer's exterior Carpenters wood glue? Next, What would be the best finish for the butcher block? Thanks for the help! | ||
| Dave Walker (Chrome_dome)
Registered Member Username: Chrome_dome Post Number: 114 Registered: 3-2010 Posted From: 67.174.144.159 Rating: N/A |
Dallas; If you are going to inlay and if you are going to use to cut veggies on etc., you might think about making it so that it can be lifted out to clean With Lemon juice and salt. You then give it a coat of mineral oil only and wipe off excess. Reason is Mineral oil will not spoil or go rancid all others will. If you still want to seal it and glue it in. You can use floor hardener like on basketball courts, High Resin content. This is a Polyurethane type product and 2 or 3 layers is good. It will scratch with knives etc., but is tough. It can be re-sanded and re coated. As far as glue if you have used the gorilla glues are very good but if you read the end for the back warnings, it says that there is no known solvent to remove product. Protect everything including your hands that you don't want it on,LOL. I would use Titebond type of wood glue,water based. Dave | ||
| John & Barb Tesser (Bigrigger)
Registered Member Username: Bigrigger Post Number: 466 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 96.42.5.35  Rating: N/A |
Dallas, from what I understand most butcher blocks that are going to be used for food prep are finished with non-toxic oil (pure white mineral oil). They will need reoiled on a regular basis. If they are more for looks than chopping meat I think they probably use polyurethane. I am no expert but have done some reading on it in preperation for building one. John | ||
| Tim Brandt (Timb)
Registered Member Username: Timb Post Number: 576 Registered: 10-2003 Posted From: 66.165.176.62  Rating: N/A |
I second the tightbond for glue | ||
| Dallas Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 116 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 75.91.196.81 Rating: N/A |
Dave, Gorilla Wood Glue is a water based adhesive. It's recommended for most uses above the water line and is non toxic. http://www.gorillatough.com/glues/woodglue/index.aspx I've been using it for about 6 months and am thoroughly amazed at the quality of the stuff. I will be using the pieces as removable inlays, probably with a piece of stainless underneath... I hate not being able to clean up in the cracks and crevices. I used titebond for awhile, and had a problem with humidity expansion on a desk top I did in the bus a couple of years ago. While we were living in it, it was fine. When we moved into a house, (The desk top stayed in the bus), after about 3 months the dowels pulled out from one side or the other with the change in humidity. At one point, the ends of the dowels was visible, and the next day the top was back as tight as the day I put it together! The finish I'll use will be mineral oil... I grew up with the stuff and remember spring cleaning and one of my jobs as a 6 year old was cleaning mom's cutting boards and applying the mineral oil! | ||
| Dallas Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 117 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 75.91.196.81 Rating: N/A |
I wish had a band saw, but the wife had to make an emergency flight to SC this week, and the extra money for fun stuff is gone. Right now my method of flattening, squaring and making planks is to start with a set of splitting wedges hammered in with the back of a maul until I get a nice split. Next I have an antique Craftsman 3 5/8" electric hand planer that I'll flatten one side with. When that's done, I'll turn the piece over and do the other side. Next comes the cheapo ryobi table saw with an 80 tooth Freud carbide tipped ripping blade. This will make a generally 90° edge on one side after a few passes through. Once I get the chunk down to 3 1/2" thick, I can make my boards. Some are only 3/4" wide, some are a full 3 1/2" wide. After that, I use a makita electric hand planer to do a final planing to size the wood about a 32nd" thicker than I need, then run an orbital sander over it at final fit up. Lot's of work, but I think it'll be worth it! | ||
| Dave Walker (Chrome_dome)
Registered Member Username: Chrome_dome Post Number: 115 Registered: 3-2010 Posted From: 67.174.144.159 Rating: N/A |
Dallas; I was unaware that gorilla had wood glue. I have only used the urethane type , which is great stuff but can be messy. I still like Titebond and have not had those type of problems with it but we also have no humidity here in Cali. It is good it is a lot of work because you will have some great stories to share when done and sounds like some great pictures I am sure also. Keep us all up to date with the project and findings with this wood you are using. Dave | ||
| don goldsmith (Bottomacher)
Registered Member Username: Bottomacher Post Number: 274 Registered: 12-2000 Posted From: 72.152.142.25 Rating: N/A |
It might be worthwhile to talk to some local woodworkers to see if you can have the wood milled for you; you'll probably save a lot of time, and you'll still have the fun of lots of hours of fitting the pieces. | ||
| Dallas Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 119 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 75.91.196.81 Rating: N/A |
Don, I looked all over around here for anyone with a mill. The closest I could find was about 40 miles away and he says he has enough work to keep him busy until 2014. Another reason I'm doing this is that I've been to all of the box stores and lumber yards in a 50 mile radius and all the oak, maple, cherry and other hard woods probably wouldn't even make good pallets, and the prices they wanted made me miss living in Ky and In and NC for years and years! I guess I got spoiled. | ||
| Bob Wies (Ncbob)
Registered Member Username: Ncbob Post Number: 278 Registered: 2-2006 Posted From: 64.85.179.73 Rating: N/A |
And I thought that Black Locust was the hardest wood in North America! Seems like I might have been wrong. The only good use I've found with Osage Orange is the fruit. It's geat for keeping spiders out of the house. Ncbob | ||
| Dallas Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 122 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 75.91.196.81 Rating: N/A |
Bob, a lot of Noorth American wood is harder than Black Locust. The Jenka scale uses a .444 steel ball to see how much pressure it would take to embed it 1/2" into a piece of wood. Ash is much harder, and in a quick check I just did, there are a bunch of others that are much harder than either Osage Orange (2040) or Black Locust (1700). | ||
| Roger Baughman (Roger)
Registered Member Username: Roger Post Number: 217 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 69.232.68.210  Rating: N/A |
Bob, what do you mean when you say Osage Orange keeps the spiders out of the house. Could you elaborate a little, Roger | ||
| Dallas Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 123 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 75.91.196.81 Rating: N/A |
Roger, I've been told that Osage Orange has insect repellent properties and will keep roaches spiders and other critters out of a room it's stored in. | ||
| Jack Fids (Jack_fids)
Registered Member Username: Jack_fids Post Number: 182 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 69.171.161.180  Rating: N/A |
This post was fascinating for me.... I could never remember the name of the trees that grew around Uncle Ernie's yard when I was kid. We called them "Wart Apples", ablut the only things we found them to be good for was lookin at, throwin'em at each other in a game of War & pickin'em up in the fall for throwing away as trash, when they rot it STINKS! (I think throwing them was THE way they were used as an insect repellant) Nice to hear the trees produce something worthwhile! It also sounds like Carbide tipped tools might be the only way to deal with the hardness issues. fwiw I wish you had posted some pics of it or a link to some... sounds to me like the kind of thing I'd like to do the counter tops with before sealing them in liquid polyester. I get the idea that the finished product would look similar to autumn leaves because of the burling & colors. (Message edited by Jack Fids on October 26, 2010) | ||
| Dallas Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 124 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 75.91.196.81 Rating: N/A |
Jack, As soon as I get something worthwhile to show, I'll try to post some pictures. On the insect thing, I have noticed that since I've had some of this wood in the house for the last few weeks, we haven't seen a spider, and ant or even a palmetto bug (Huge roach infesting the south), and even the kitties aren't doing the flea scratch polka for an hour before they bed down at night. Related? I have no idea, I just thought it was worth mentioning. | ||
| Jack Fids (Jack_fids)
Registered Member Username: Jack_fids Post Number: 202 Registered: 1-2009 Posted From: 69.171.161.58 Rating: N/A |
If those Kitties could just do a schottische, I know an agent.... In the meantime I talked to my wood finisher friend who told me he once made a compound Bow out of Bodak... & fwiw he recommends Tung Oil to bring out the depth of the wood. | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 149 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
Hey Dallas If you find that the wood has great anti bug properties, can you try it on in-laws? if it works well there we can go into business together and make a killing Les | ||
| Dallas Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 126 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 75.91.205.104 Rating: N/A |
Jack, I thought about Tung oil too, but I worried about all the donors of those tungs. Would there be a bunch of tongueless critters roaming the land? Les, My wife went to SC to see her parents a couple of weeks ago, I hid some of the sawdust in her baggage, but the in-law's are still alive and living at Myrtle Beach, ;>( | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 1043 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.1.12  Rating: N/A |
HAHAHHAHAH LOL LOL LOL GOOD ONE DALLAS Gomer | ||
| Bruce Henderson (Oonrahnjay)
Registered Member Username: Oonrahnjay Post Number: 609 Registered: 8-2004 Posted From: 70.60.102.61  Rating: N/A |
@ Dallas - must be doing its job; some people would think that 8 states away is pretty good! | ||
| les marston (Les_marston)
Registered Member Username: Les_marston Post Number: 150 Registered: 1-2010 Posted From: 68.151.225.213 Rating: N/A |
Any way you could send some to my in-laws? I think they would love myrtle beach. I know I would love for them to live there. Les | ||
| Dallas Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 127 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 75.91.205.104 Rating: N/A |
8 states? geez, I was hoping for a few continents! Les, I can send you as much as you want! But why pollute a nice beach with ummm, unhh, stuff? Yup, that's it, Stuff! That's what my proctologist, (Dr. Squint), calls that stuff he see's! | ||
| marvin pack (Gomer)
Registered Member Username: Gomer Post Number: 1044 Registered: 3-2007 Posted From: 71.55.1.12 Rating: N/A |
Dallas On the Gulf side of Florida, they would call that Tar Balls>> LOL Gomer | ||
| Dallas Farnworth (Dallas)
Registered Member Username: Dallas Post Number: 128 Registered: 7-2004 Posted From: 75.91.205.104 Rating: N/A |
I thought those were what Brer Rabbit made to catch Brer Fox! |