| Author | Message | ||
| Ross Carlisle (Ross) (66.238.216.14)
Rating: N/A |
I have this idea about building my own 4 pole switch. Can you guys tell me if this is worth trying? Take four single pole double throw solenoids rated at 50A and energized by 12V and put one on each leg coming in. Connect a double throw switch to the solenoids to switch between shore power and genset. If this will work, can anyone suggest a source for relays that will work. They would need to be rated for continuous duty. Thanks...Ross | ||
| Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.121.62)
Rating: N/A |
You can use a DPDT switch-- look in Grainger at 5X846-- it's only "rated" at 30 amps but works (that's what I used to switch hots and the ground to my SW Trace inverter-- with thanks to JimNH for the tip) --Geoff '82 RTS CA P.S. You should just use 120v off the imput power for the relay, not 12v | ||
| Ross Carlisle (Ross) (66.238.216.14)
Rating: N/A |
I was looking more far a remote solution. I'd like to put the solenoids down in the bay with the electrical service and put a remote switch up inside the bus. Ross | ||
| Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.121.62)
Rating: N/A |
You can do that with the 5X846 and a toggle switch in which case I see why you wanted 12v. | ||
| Marc Bourget (209.142.38.81) Rating: N/A |
I have two thoughts about this issue. First, the KISS principle supports keeping things as simple (i.e. mechanically) as possible; Second, If you do a time/motion analysis of the tasks attendant to hooking up at a RV park, you have to unfurl the cabling after opening the bay or access door, etc. along with the water and waste lines and maybe the telephone, in some cases, set out the Sat Dish and God knows what else. The "convenience" of a remote, solenoid operated 4 pole switch is hardly worth the expense, complexity and risk of malfunction. Proper selection and installation of a disconnect would make a quick push with the palm of your hand a simple, effective means of attaining your purpose. Onward and Upward Marc Bourget | ||
| Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.121.62)
Rating: N/A |
What Ross wants is a transfer switch, very similar to the automatic transfer switches you can buy for the shore power/generator imputs. They are designed so it is impossible to have two sources of power imput into the bus at the same time. What I don't understand is why Ross thinks he needs to be able to control the switch from inside the bus-- disconnecting the shore power would automatically switch him back to the generator output (or inverter) if he hooked the relay up to 120v shore power. | ||
| Ross Carlisle (Ross) (66.238.216.191)
Rating: N/A |
Automatic switching would be fine. The problem is that I put my electrical service panel in the same bay as the genset. That bay needs to have large vent for the genset. I'm a liittle uncomfortable with having the electrical service in a vented bay like that. My options are to build an enclosure around the electrical service panels or move them to another bay. If I build an enclosure around them, it becomes more difficult to get at the plug and socket "switch" I have now. I don't really want to move the panels because there is not really a better location foir them. I just need to make sure they stay dry. Can you describe the setup you mentioned above where disconnecting shore power whould switch back to the genset automatically? Is this what the 5X846 does? Also...Are you sure it's cool to use a 30A switch when there is the potential to exceed that? | ||
| Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.121.62)
Rating: N/A |
I took the cover off a 50 amp Magnatec automatic 50 amp line switch and it had 40 amp switches in it! Since I never run that much stuff off my 50 amp shore/gen line the 30 amp switches work fine for me, plus I have mine set up to switch the ground at the same time. You may just consider buying an auto switch box if that is what you need. Check with ronthebusnut-- he had some for sale at a good price a while back, perhaps he has some left. | ||
| Jerry Liebler (216.26.2.227) Rating: N/A |
Ronthebusnut has the Magnatec ATS100 (50amp) for $85. It connects shore power when available & if no shore available connects the generator when running. Completly automatic and much cheaper than the contactors you mention (SPDT @ 50 amps is expensive & 12 V coils would be very special). BTW the ground coming in should NEVER be switched so only 3 poles need switching. Also when running on the generator the 'neutral' should be connected to ground (this is best done at the generator). | ||
| FAST FRED (67.75.110.49) Rating: N/A |
Eventually every coach will go on to a new owner. IF YOU were the next buyer would you rather see 2 sockets and a plug in a closet or other out of the way place , or a homebrew box full of expensive thingies that need an EE to get & keep operating? KISS,for better living, FAST FRED | ||
| Dwight (65.142.76.204) Rating: N/A |
Why do all of that ?? I just put a female 240 volt/50 amp plug from the generator and a 240 volt/50 amp male from the main electrical panel in the bus with 25 ft. of 8/4 cable. When I unplug from the gen. I plug to shorepower, when I unplug from shorepower I plug to gen. KISS !! | ||
| Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.120.16)
Rating: N/A |
Jerry L.-- switching the ground is required for the SW Trace inverter. I also have an older Trace UB2512SB inverter I'm not using, and it switches the ground for you. They don't do that on the SW series for some reason. --Geoff '82 RTS CA | ||
| Doug Dickinson (Dougd470) (65.161.188.11)
Rating: N/A |
I am a little confused here. Why do you want to switch the ground? Why does the invertor need the ground switched (in addition to the neutral). | ||
| Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.121.155)
Rating: N/A |
What you are switching is the neutral and ground bonding-- when you are hooked up to shore power you need the ground bonded to the shore power neutral, but when you are running off the generator you want the neutral and ground bonded at the generator. This is for the Trace SW inverter that locks in phase with either shore or generator power. Like I said before the Trace UB inverter switches the bonding for you. I don't know about other brand inverters with built in transfer switches. | ||
| boogiethecat (68.7.217.217) Rating: N/A |
If you bond neutral to ground at the genset, and also at the inverter, and then switch *both neutral and hot* from your house system to either the genset, the inverter, or shore, proper neutral bonding takes care of itself automatically... just another kind of mousetrap that works... Gary | ||
| Doug Dickinson (Dougd470) (65.161.188.11)
Rating: N/A |
OK, now I am more confused. I plan to use a Trace SW for my coach. I also plan on using the gen set under way, and the shore power when docked. Some boondocking without gen set, but very little for now. I want to use the Trace SW kinda like a peaking unit and UPS, which from what I read is the way it works best. That being the case, does the SW unit care if the bond is made at the gen set or the power pole as would be the usual case? Will the SW shut down if the ground and bond are not tied together at the Inverter? Is there a safety issue I am missing? My plan is to use the plug system for connection between gen set and shore power. With that, the ground, and hence the bond, is going to follow the plug. The SW will be wired in downstream after 2 ac units and before the coach lighting and the microwave/coffee maker (essential survival tools). One AC unit will be on it for peak/starting only or when gen set is at max load. ??? | ||
| Jim Ashworth (Jimnh) (172.148.100.18)
Rating: N/A |
Doug- If you are thinking about the SW Trace inverters, go to their website and download the manual for the inverter you are interested in. The complete installation and use instructions are there. It will answer all your questions and show the correct way to wire it. Gary- the SW inverters are not like others. If you bond the neutral to ground at the inverter it will remain bonded even if other sources are available. Not to code. Not right. Geoff- I found this winter that if the campground has a 30A GFCI breaker (Big Bend Nat'l Park, TX), the neutral bond relay can trip the breaker if the relay is wired in the normally closed position when no shore power is connected. The GFCI detects the ground as a fault and trips before the relay has a chance to open. If this happens to you, disconnect the ground from the relay when you're on GFCI shore power, but remember to reconnect when you leave. Jim | ||
| don (Bottomacher) (216.130.152.51)
Rating: N/A |
Dwight, I don't think it's legal to run 50 amps through a number 8 wire. You might want to check. FWIW Don | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A |
Jim, you are definitely correct if you were to keep the inverter permanently connected to the system. In my post I said "to either the genset, the inverter, or shore" specifically meaning that only one source would be connected to the system at a time, ie with a three position 2 pole switch. If the inverter was not being used in my system, it's hot and neutral would be physically disconnected from the system... no problem with code there... Cheers gary | ||
| FAST FRED (67.75.113.122) Rating: N/A |
"to either the genset, the inverter, or shore" specifically meaning that only one source would be connected to the system at a time' You pay so much for the Trace that all of the options should be used. When at a friends home or other place where only a 15A plug is avilable , and you DONT WANT TO BLOW THE SOURCE FUSE, the Trace can be set to monitor the input amps and add to the juice . EG a new carbunkle will run on 8 or 10A , so when it cycles ON the Trace recognises the load & augments the house current for a secod or two . Even works better with a properly sized gen set., The Trace will pick up the load , AND follow the sagging frequency as it adds the starting current for the load. SO yes you should have more than one electrical source connected at one time , to have the HIGHEST standard of living & get the versatility you paid for from the inverter. FAST FRED | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A |
Righteo Fred... And I also agree with you that if you fork the bucks out for an expensive inverter that you should hook it up all the time... I was simply pointing out that "if" you did it different way by switching it in and out, that the grounding quandry takes care of itself. I was VERY careful in my wording... I never said you "should" do it that way, I just said "if" you did it that way. But then I like inverters like you like carbunkles, so for me personally it's "don't even go there", ie no inverter at all on a bus. I personally see no reason for even owning one of the things unless it's bolted to your house with a big pile of solar cells. "My way". | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A |
Gary, how do you use a microwave or toaster or the wifes curling iron or hair dryer or electric skillet or crock pot, and do you never watch TV or use a VCR? And how about the mixer or blender for a Marguerita? Even a battery operated electric drill needs a supply of AC to recharge the battery. I do not think I would want to go so primative that I would want to do without these luxuries that normally go with a bus conversion (and I guarantee that Miss Lazy would not), and I definitely would not want to start up the genset every time I wanted to use one of these items. My Way. Richard | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A |
Richard, I have a nice QUIET propane powered onan 7kw genset. The wife has REALLY long hair (currently measuring at 49") and doesn't even own a hair dryer or a curling iron, we have a full propane stove and hate electric skillets, never do Crok Pots. The TV is actually a DVD player (we don't watch broadcast TV) and runs entirely on 12 volts as does all the lighting on the bus, and yes if I do a margurita or use the microwave, I turn on the genset. Once or twice a day isn't any biggie. Of course usually if I'm making marguritas it's HOT outside and the genset is on anyay for the roof air's.... Nope, can't see a reason for an inverter... My way.... Cheers Gary | ||
| Doug Dickinson (Dougd470) (65.161.188.11)
Rating: N/A |
Thanks to all. I think I understand the issue better now. I plan to use the Invertor the way FF talks about. It makes more sense than upsizing the gen set for just starting current. Frees up money for the invertor too! My way also... Doug St Louis MC9 | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A |
Gary, and I think that is what this nut business is all about. Doing it "my way" (your Way) is where the fun comes in. Richard | ||
| Gary Stadler (Boogiethecat) (68.7.217.217)
Rating: N/A |
Boy, I second that Richard!!!  BTW, "my way" has been a royal pain in the rear today... I decided to move my new turbo's oil drain to higher ground on the valve cover I'd put it in (pancake engine in the crown), because evidently it was so low that it was under oil and the turbo wasn't draining properly, and oil was blowing back up the drain line and showing up in the exhaust due to this problem. At the same time I figured I'd weld up a crack in the same valve cover...I'd had it plugged (sucessfully) with silicone for a while now. Long story short, I tig welded the crack and moved the drain fitting, reinstalled it all and the darned crack reappeared 1/4" away. So I said screw it and filled it with silicone again. Reassembled everything. Then I started to engine to look for oil leaks, nothing...good... so I shut it down and strangely, I heard a 15 second hiss I'd never heard before coming out of the cover's gasket area. I Messed with it for 30 more minutes and figured out the cover gasket was leaking...but why pressure in the crankcase after the engine shut down? An hour more screwing with it I found that if I siliconed the place where the hiss was, it would move somewhere else. HUH? Finally, I discovered that the crankcase breather filter was dead-plugged!! This was causing pressure buildup in the crankcase... I Removed it and no more hiss...no more back pressure in the crankcase... which means the turbo drain position was OK in the first place and I would have not had to do any of this had I known the stupid filter was plugged....ugh.... fun with the Crown.... | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
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I hate days like that. LOL Richard |