| Author | Message | ||
| Johnny (67.241.224.20) Rating: N/A |
I know some people have built a conversion with the "house" having nothing but 110V electrics--12/24V are chassis-only. With the amount of boondocking I do, I'm considering the opposite approach: setting the bus up with NO 110V (except a converter to run shore/genset power), & running everything on 12V. Well, any thoughts here? Other than "You're nuts"...I already know that one.  | ||
| Don KS/TX (66.82.9.38)
Rating: N/A |
Well, I had a 120v only bus and loved it. Figured if I had to have an inverter for the house fridge, why the heck did I want battery lights and stuff. I see nothing wrong with your idea, as long as you don't need the 120 for your useage. Motorhomes have done it for years. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.79.46)
Rating: N/A |
Boats do it all the time. Having a shore cord introduces all kinds of unknown elements to a boat, related to galvanic electrolisys. Many have no AC. Also, as Don said the stick and staple boxes have done it that way for years, it's even easier now that so many things are available on 12VDC Gary | ||
| Bob (Bobb) (69.19.6.157)
Rating: N/A |
I live in a house with no 'grid' power. It is completely 120VAC. Solar and generator for power, into a battery bank, and an inverter. Its the only way to go. A pure sine wave inverter would be a great way to go without too much power loss. They weren't available when I put the system in ten years ago. A pure 12vdc system limits the number of neat little gadgets you can use, that just aren't available at that voltage. | ||
| Geoff (Geoff) (66.238.121.220)
Rating: N/A |
I need 120v for the roof A/C's, the microwave convection oven, the refer, the TV's, mama's hair dryer and curling iron, the coffee pot, the cell phone battery charger (sine wave inverter), and a host of other things I can't think of right now. I still run 12v lights, fresh water pump, tank gauges, and sump pump; but limiting yourself to 12v is setting your lifestyle back 10-20 years. --Geoff '82 RTS CA | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A |
If you never have a requirement for (to name a few) any of the common electrical appliance that most of us have gotten used to then you should be in great shape. For myself, the purpose of a conversion is to have the luxuries that I am accustomed to like a microwave, convection oven, electric griddle, crock pot, rice maker, electric skillet, hair dryer, curling iron, electric razor, large screen TV(s), DVD and casette player, dishwasher, washer/dryer, Satellite TV, ice maker, electric can opener and other miscellaneous and sundry items. BTW, I really do not have all these items in the bus. I do not have a washer/dryer. LOL | ||
| two dogs (67.30.23.32) Rating: N/A |
The advantage of building a bus,,,is that you can build it the way YOU want it....I'm going with a LOW kitchen sink...'cause I can't stand up long enough to wash dishes.... | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.79.46)
Rating: N/A |
Many of the items you guys have listed are available as 12V units. Seriously, I know lots of people that live on thier boats with NO house current. It all depends on what you want. That being said, I should confess to having a 3KVA inverter, Genset, etc... and planning to have full-time A/C. But I think that's the point of building your own bus. Gary | ||
| Johnny (67.241.224.20) Rating: N/A |
Lessee: Propane reefer (RV-type), maybe a propane/12V if I can get one cheap. The gas oven works perfectly well...and the grill sees more use, anyway. No plans for a microwave. Never owned/used an electric griddle. No plans for washer/dryer, dishwasher, satellite, or DVD. Only plan a small TV (like, 13"), little as we use it. I don't think Liz owns a curling iron. I know she doesn't like blow-drying her hair. I don't have enough hair to matter.  I can live without an electric can opener. I have an electric coffee pot, but could always grab a stove-top percolater. 12V audio stuff is dirt-common, & dirt-cheap. The only real quandary is roof A/C...but I think I've seen 12V A/C units. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.79.46)
Rating: N/A |
There are 12V Coffee Pots. 12v A/C, You could get stuck there.... Gary | ||
| Johnny (67.241.224.20) Rating: N/A |
Well...maybe not. I drive shuttle buses--all have 12V rear A/C systems, usually made by Carrier or TransAir. Some have heat built in, too. Probably need to run the noisemaker, but could work. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.79.46)
Rating: N/A |
Not really 12V, those are more of a "Diesel-Powered" A/C. Took one off my bird, with a forklift. the Compressor and everything runs, as you say, from the noisemaker. I think supporting one of those things would be more hassle than a complete 120v system, also, in a coach, it would be like a meatlocker. Prob'ly costs a couple of MPG as well You could install regular RV chassis air, but I'm not going to. To much work. But again, I'll have 120v. Gary | ||
| Johnny (67.241.224.20) Rating: N/A |
Actually, they seem to be all-electric--there's a noticeable surge (voltmeter moves) when the compressor cuts in. We have several (6 that I know of) in gas-powered buses. Most of then are in Ford Econoline cutaways. If anything, I'd need 2 to cool my bus (long-nose 40' schoolie)--one isn't really enough for a 35' BlueBird TranShuttle on a 90 degree day (even running flat-out all day), so I'd want more capacity. But I bet I'd need a BIG genset. | ||
| Scott Whitney (66.82.9.48) Rating: N/A |
You could always buy a couple rolls of cheapo Romex and put it in a few key places before you completely button up the walls and ceiling. Then it would be easy to add a light fixture or electrical outlet later if the need arose. Much easier than tearing up walls later, or draping Romex from the ceiling. . . My coach features a mix of both 12VDC stuff and 120VAC. Both have their advantages and it is easy to mix both systems in one coach. I'd be wary of some of the cheapo 12v stuff like hot plates and coffee makers etc. I don't think you can draw adequate heat energy from a 12vdc system without using monster wire gauge. So if you do want to use that kind of stuff, or if you want A/C, better plan on at least a basic 120VAC system. Scott | ||
| Richard Bowyer (Drivingmisslazy) (24.196.191.70)
Rating: N/A |
Gee, I forgot the electric coffee pot and the clock radio. I always set the coffee pot to come on at 5AM so the coffee is ready when I get up. Richard | ||
| Johnny (67.241.224.20) Rating: N/A |
My clock requires no electricity...it's a windup. Scott: Good idea. | ||
| SLCs RTS (198.29.191.148) Rating: N/A |
In the RV world, 12vdc is the way to go, if you go into big buck RVs, then they may include 110 and an inverter. My RV, when underway is all 12vdc and so thelights and tv and anything else needed is 12vdc supported at a park with a converter (120vac to 12vdc). The frige is 110/12vdc/propane. The AC on top is 110 but when in transit, the vehicle has its own AC unit. Very simple. Ifyou were all 12vdc and booning, you might need to park under some trees or have a genset, but its all good......slc | ||
| FAST FRED (67.75.96.111) Rating: N/A |
If you chose a swamp cooler over an air cond (and dont visit Fla in summer) there is no problem doing a 12V/propane coach. A couple of solar pannels 2 for the coach & one more for each occupant is a start. Enjoy the silence, I for one would prefer to toast my AM bagel over the gas flame toaster , than turn on a genset to have house stuff do it "for me" . Get back issues or the CD from Home Power & its really easy to do. You will need a cheapo chop chop inverter for the sat dish. Works for me , most of the time, FAST FRED | ||
| Doug Dickinson (Dougd470) (65.161.188.11)
Rating: N/A |
Lots of options and even more ideas on how to do it. As always, you do what YOU think is the best way. My suggestion (what I just recently did) was I rented an RV for 2 weeks and found that we boondocked about half the time in the Northwest US. Didn't need A/C since it was fairly cool where we went. Just used 12VDC and started the gen set a couple of times to run the microwave (heat up lunch in a rest area) and AM coffee (use a thermos pot to keep it warm after you brew it). A good size invertor would have done that if the unit had one. I had to rethink the entire conversion after that experience. I spent a lot of time in boats in Florida when I was young and remember being very hot (not a lot of AC in the 30-40 ft boats 40 years ago). That had me thinking a lot differently. Now I am going with propane heat, refer, cooktop (we prefer gas to cook with) and will use mostly 12V lighting inside. This gives us the option of pluging in or living off the batteries. BTW - if you are looking at 12 volt appliances, check out a T/A truckstop and you will find a wide variety. You might want to think of buying them elsewhere, but they also run sales on that stuff. Also - Wallyworld has 12V electronic refers that are dead quiet and work fairly well if you don't like a propane refer. Just a thought. As I said before, it's YOUR way that matters. This is just food for thought. Doug St Louis MC9 | ||
| Johnny (67.241.224.81) Rating: N/A |
Well, I used a bus A/C today. It was a Trans-Air on a 1996 Ford E-350 cutaway with a Metrotrans body & 460 gas power, and it does, indeed, appear to be all-electric. Set to cool, I turned the thermostat. I heard it click, & the voltmeter dropped considerably as the compressor started. That tells me the compressor is driven by an electric motor. | ||
| Jason Windecker (198.81.26.104)
Rating: N/A |
No the voltage flucuation you are seing is the 4 or 5 Condenser fans and the evaporator blower starting simultaniously, Carrier and Transair both use an engine driven compressor, while it looks to be all one packaged unit open the hood and look to see how many compressors you have, I bet a dollar youve got 2, One for the chassis air and one for the auxiliary system, and then look on the streetside of the coach and you will see the condenser and look behind it and you will see a few fans there, those systems on those are huge systems and would take a HELLUVA alternator to do any refrigeration electrically, hope that helps, straighten this one out Jason windecker | ||
| John Noonan (Silvereagle) (24.136.93.159)
Rating: N/A |
Here is one DC Air Conditioner that I am aware of there may be others. I have no knowledge or experience with the unit but recalled having bookmarked the link sometime back. http://www.victronenergy.com/DatasheetsPDF/WhisperAir/UKDFNLWhisperAir.pdf | ||
| Johnny (67.241.232.42) Rating: N/A |
Well, looking at the engine is harder than it sounds...since it's a Ford Econoline cutaway, it's literally under the dashboard. However, from what I could see, there was only 1 compressor (and a sticker telling the mechanic it has an aftermarket hi-power alternator). The factory Ford belt-routing decal was there, showing one compressor, & the belt seemed to follow it. IIRC, I think I was told this alternator is ~200 amps. You're right about the chassis-mount condenser (though we have one actually on the curb side...weird). | ||
| Mark R. Obtinario (Cowlitzcoach) (204.245.228.234)
Rating: N/A |
Hi all, I have a couple of 90 and one 94 E-350 cut-away mini buses. All three have front and rear A/C systems. The two 90's have two compressors, one compressor for the Ford factory dash air and the other one for the rear air. The 94 only has one compressor and it blends the factory dash air into the rear air system (All the systems are R-134A. The blended system just does not get as cold. I think the compressor is just not big enough and can't keep up when it gets really hot outside). I think they went to a blended system on the newer buses because the belts were changed to a single serpentine belt. With the serpentine belt it is difficult to add additional accesories driven off of the crank pulley. With conventional V-belts, if you need more drive belts all you needed to have was enough room under the hood and another shive on the pulley. In any of the buses, when you turn on the switch for the A/C, you not only activate the clutch on the compressor but you turn on three fans per condensor to pull air through the condensor and at least two fans per evaporaor to push/pull air through the evaporators. At idle, if you have all of the A/C on full blast with the headlights on, it doesn't take long to start pulling out of the batteries, even with a 275 Amp alternator. I am guessing but I think the system is pulling in excess of 100 amps when all of the fans are on high speed. In order to run a 12 volt A/C system, including the compressor, you are going to need a lot of battery capacity to keep ahead of the use. Plus, you are going to need a lot of generating capacity to fill the batteries back up again. Good luck and happy trails. Mark O. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (12.213.97.40)
Rating: N/A |
Dropped out of this conversation for a day or so, was in the air (Yes, on 9/11--no crowds at the airports!) the voltage dip you see is the A/C Clutch and the blower fan, as Jason first mentioned. Easy test though--If the A/C works when the Engine is not running, then you're right. Also, I wanted to respond to the Romex suggestion-- NEVER use solid-conductor wiring in a Auto/RV/Marine application, or anyghint else that moves/vibrates for that matter. There is a "Marine Romex" but it is insanely expensive. Gary | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong) (24.127.74.29)
Rating: N/A |
Gary said: "NEVER use solid-conductor wiring in a Auto/RV/Marine application, or anyghint else that moves/vibrates for that matter." So why is it that all the stick and staple units use Romex and have for years and years??? Not only in motorhomes, but also travel trailers and fifth-wheels. Shoot, even my Coleman tent trailer had romex in it! Not saying I'll use it, but it does raise the question. . . RJ | ||
| John Noonan (Silvereagle) (24.136.93.159)
Rating: N/A |
"So why is it that all the stick and staple units use Romex and have for years and years??? Not only in motorhomes, but also travel trailers and fifth-wheels. Shoot, even my Coleman tent trailer had romex in it!" Simple answer: Just like everything else in a manufactured unit. The cheapest way to do it. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (12.213.97.40)
Rating: N/A |
"So why is it that all the stick and staple units use Romex and have for years and years??? Not only in motorhomes, but also travel trailers and fifth-wheels. Shoot, even my Coleman tent trailer had romex in it!" Because we didn't expect (Or Want) them to last more than 5 - 10 years, and we wanted them to be cheap. Also, those units only saw service 5 - 10 times a year, not like a bus. Gary (I say "WE" I was the Electrical troubleshooter for Monaco for a time) | ||
| Chris 85 RTS (207.239.72.45)
Rating: N/A |
I have seen this solid wire debate every month now for as long as I have been reading these boards, over 6 months. I personally do not believe that the solid wire is a problem when the wire is properly supported and terminated. Remember that if a solid/Romex built mass produced RV would have a fire that was proved to be wire stress releated failure, the lawsuit would put them out of business. Sure they want them to be cheap, but you also have to be safe when your company is on the line. For me, I am using conduit in the walls with solid THHN wire. | ||
| Dale MC8 (69.19.170.252)
Rating: N/A |
The Coach Builder's Bulletin put out by George Myers (really by Sue Myers) had an article several months ago about this controversy. Bottom line was that altho he supported the 'idea' of stranded wire, he could find no documented proof of its superiority but did find documented problems with stranded wire. My 2cents worth Dale MC8 | ||
| Chris 85 RTS (65.35.64.237)
Rating: N/A |
Try this link: http://www.mrsharkey.com/busbarn/electrics/chapt10.htm | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (198.88.152.20)
Rating: N/A |
I have seen Solid conductor wire fail in applications where vibration was an issue. "Stick and Staple" motorhomes have a place to staple the romex down, not so our (At least My) Bus, it's hard to drive staples into the metal "Studs". In order to properly secure the romex, you could use "R" clamps and self-tappers to secure the Romex, but frankly, I don't see any reason to "Do it Wrong" I have seen SO/SJO (Extension Cord) material used, it seemed like a good material and held up well. I would tin the ends before attaching the stranded wire to the screw terminals though. I'm almost ready to start running wire--I may use SO cord myself, but on the other hand, I have spools of "Marine Romex" on hand. Gary | ||
| Peter Broadribb (Madbrit) (65.73.229.90)
Rating: N/A |
Gary, If you use the extension cord, what terminals will you use? If using a crimp-on automotive type, would you still tin the ends of the multistrand wire? In this case, and may be others, I feel that tinning the ends of multistranded wire could result in making a fracture point by converting what was once a flexible multistranded medium into a rigid single wire and at the point where the solder stops, could be a stress point. Peter. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (198.88.152.20)
Rating: N/A |
That's actually a question that is a topic of debate in the Marine world. My solution, is to solder crimp-ons, not crimping them at all, more to prevent oxidization, than anything else. In High vibration situations (Engine, Genset), I crimp only. I use a commercial swaging tool, not an automotive crimper. In both situations I heat-shrink the ends. Kinda extreme, but I'm a steel boat, in saltwater. On big connections- Starters, etc... I use a big copper and solder them. But we were talking about Busses weren't we? I won't be that extreme on the bus, I'll tin the ends and wrap them around the screw terminals on the receptacles. I'm not losing any sleep about the wire fracturing at the solder joint. Gary | ||
| Chris 85 RTS (207.239.72.45)
Rating: N/A |
Gary, I am not sure what you meant by "Do it wrong". This is clearly not a right and wrong issue as no one can bring documented data to the table to defend their preferred method. That said, I really do not understand your issue with properly securing the romex. A wire run anywhere behind a wall or ceiling must somehow be secured in order to keep it in place. It should also be protected from being punctured by screws/nails/staples whatever. Armoured cable or conduit seems like an easy way to solve all the problems. Solid core wire run inside armour or coduit is completely supported for the entire length of the run and does not have the solder/crimp issues at the connection points. I'm also assuming that no one would even think of stringing any kind of cable under the coach with out it being properly secured at least every couple feet. I think the key to your solution is that you "have spools of "Marine Romex" on hand". If I had spools of very expensive marine romex available for no cost, I surely would have used that as well. I think that by saying Romex is wrong is clearly a biased opinion and not based on valid studies. Personal experience does not count as the statisical sample size is not large enough to be valid. Bottom line, each approach has pro's and con's. Each converter needs to weigth the strengths and weaknesses of each and make a choice, at least until the data is in that makes it a more clear choice. And then by then it will be required by standards. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (198.88.152.22)
Rating: N/A |
My reference to doing it wrong, is that any solid condudtor wire is not rated in a vibration environment. If I had a NEMA handbook nearby I could quote the actual regulation/verbage. NEMA is a fairly accepted standard of electrical practices, they're not my rules, I didn't make them, but they're fairly intuitive. What on Earth makes you think I have Marine wiring laying around at "No Cost"? Jeez don't I wish it were so! I buy it by the spool, at great cost, so I have it on hand. It's just more convenient to use what I have than stocking multiple types of cable. Saying Romex is wrong is merely quoting common acceptable practice. Not a Bias on my part. Even though I have personally, with my own eyes seen solid-conductor wiring fail, I am not basing this on my own empirical evidence, but common accepted standards. Much as you may deny it, there are "Right" and "Wrong" ways to do things that are mechanical. there is no right and wrong way to paint your bus, arrange furniture or chose wallcoverings. This thread was begun discussing doing an "All DC" coach, which is a personal judgement call. There are, however, right and very wrong ways to do wiring. Gary | ||
| Don KS/TX (66.82.9.37)
Rating: N/A |
Just thinking our loud. You said "My reference to doing it wrong, is that any solid condudtor wire is not rated in a vibration environment" I think there needs to be a definition of a "vibration environment" to solve that. Obviously the RV manufacturers (as well as the product liability insurers) do not call an RV a "vibration environment" and they get away with it. I surely never considered any part of my bus a "vibration environment". After all, it is called "marine cable", not RV cable, so many who argue on this board would say "it is not designed for RV use even". Dunno, maybe boats vibrate enough to qualify? If you were to get picky, houses vibrate from thunderstorms, passing trains, tornados, jet planes. |