| Author |
Message |
mark (65.40.225.193)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 11:21 am: | |
I think I am going to hear some much more disturbing news than Matt.
My bus (75 Gillig) has a 3208 Cat. It came with doccumentation that it has a remanufactured (by cat) engine with only about 40,000 miles since installed.
When I fire up my bus, it blows quite a bit of bluish gray smoke. It does finally clear up, after warm up and driving for 45 minutes
Do I have a serious problem?
Thanks
Mark
75 gillig 636 |
Mark R. Obtinario (Cowlitzcoach) (204.245.250.145)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 11:39 am: | |
You have a Cat 3208. They all smoke on start up and they all smoke when you go down the road. It is part of the reason why Cat no longer makes that engine.
The pistons are not round, they are oval. As they warm up, the pistons expand and round themselves out to fill the cylinder all the way. Until the engine warms up, you are going to be low on compression which will result in a lot of smoke on start up.
I had a Gillig with a Cat 3208 that wasn't very old. When it started up, particularly if it was cold and damp outside, you could not see anything towards the back of the bus because of the smoke. By the time the air pressure had built up to operating pressure the smoke had subsided from a battleship smoke screen to a mosquito fogger.
Because most school buses never really ever get fully warmed up they tend to smoke more than highway buses. You will find, as you use your bus and get it really warmed up, the time it takes for the smoke to clear up will be reduced.
One thing that will really keep your Cat smoking is if you idle your engine very much. If you need to charge the batteries, put a charger on it or take the bus out for about 100 miles. Idling it for any length of time is going to exacerbate the smoking problem.
Good luck and happy trails.
Mark O. |
two dogs (67.30.23.29)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 1:02 pm: | |
cat didn't have a very good idea on the 3208..only has one compression ring also,the 6 cyl. are nice tho |
Phil Dumpster (12.230.214.167)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 2:21 pm: | |
http://www.expertdiesel.com/catenginepage.htm
These folks put in pistons with 3 compression rings to reduce the smoking problem.
I worked for a school bus outfit that had almost all of the Blue Bird All Americans with that engine and that's standard operating practice for those. They smoke like crazy when cold. Considering the other engines available on the market that are superior, it's a wonder anyone deliberately ordered a bus with those engines unless they were half the cost of the competition. |
Jojo Colina (Du1jec) (209.75.20.72)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 4:05 pm: | |
I have a cat 3208T 300HP with the Air-toAir Aftercooler. I will see some light white smoke for the under 30 seconds under load right after startup from sitting a few weeks. After that no smoke under any conditions.
The coach is 29,000 lbs. ( a 91 HR Limited with 82000 miles) |
Johnny (65.224.20.207)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 8:06 pm: | |
My suggestion to get the 3208 to warm up is the same thing I do to get the 6V71 in the old Fishbowl at work to put out enough heat to keep the passengers from griping when it's 10 degrees: take a piece of heavy cardboard & cover part of the radiator with it. Voila: now it runs at 185 instead of 150.
Come to think of it, I also do the same thing with my (diesel) F-350. |
smoky (12.222.48.5)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 9:53 pm: | |
I've worked in a truck dealerships most of my life and one thing is true no matter what is that 3208's get parked outside overnight. NASTY! that is unless there's going to be a salesman near by while You're waiting for air pressue to come up.
Smoky, |
Jojo Colina (Du1jec) (68.8.174.147)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 11:04 pm: | |
Later 3208 Turbos had different valve timing which improved if not eliminated startup smoke. I have one in my motorhome and have been on boats which have them as well and I have not seen the smoke issues everyone seems to indicate is universal on the 3208.
I can take a video of my 91 HR starting up I will take it to the governor at 3000 RPM (it is a 300HP) and you will not see but a few seconds of very light smoke.
Is my engine and those owned by people I know exceptions? Or is smoking limited to Naturally aspirated 3208's since I have only had experience with 3208 Turbos
Jojo |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (198.88.152.22)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 11:12 pm: | |
Mine smokes for about 3 or 4 minutes on cold startup.
My wife had the misfortune of following me all the way from the Bay area to Eugene, OR, and it smokes when pulling.
This is my first kitty, so I'm watching this thread with Interest.
Gary |
two dogs (67.30.23.81)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 8:44 am: | |
I drove 3208 200,000 miles for a friend that bought one in a truck,like I said only one compresson ring,..broke one ring, then a couple thousand later,broke another ,then going up 9 mile in Albuquerque,broke the 3rd one,(all this found out at teardown)..took 12 gallons of oil to go from L.A. to Tulsa (his home)He said for 100.00 more he could get either 2 or 3 compresson ring pistons in the new kit,told him I'd pay the extra 100.00 if he'd put them in. I wouldn't buy anything with a 3208,unless it was REAL cheap |
Don KS/TX (66.82.9.36)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 10:13 am: | |
Sounds like what a Cat dealer told me once, he said Cat designed it as a "throwaway" engine, and that is what you should do with them. Personally I think they are kinda cute little devils.. |
Don KS/TX (66.82.9.36)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 10:22 am: | |
Sounds like what a Cat dealer told me once, he said Cat designed it as a "throwaway" engine, and that is what you should do with them. Personally I think they are kinda cute little devils.. |
RayC (142.165.222.73)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 11:04 am: | |
I have seen this type of post come up before and it always seems to be in the fall when people are starting diesels in colder weather.
I start "older" tractor diesels year round and and an engine that starts up clean in the heat of summer will have blue grey exhaust in the fall or winter. Nothing to worry about it is normal.
I can't speak for the newer computer controlled engines as I don't have one. |
two dogs (67.30.23.68)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 12:15 pm: | |
yes sir,they were nicknamed "throwaway" engines because they weren't wet sleave ...cannot inframe them...the little engine they made to replace them 3116 (I think) was a nice LITTLE engine...you really don't save anything with little engines, they just work their ass off & give the same fuel mileage |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (198.88.152.22)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 12:32 pm: | |
The "Throwaway" term is from the fact that it is not a sleeved engine. I have never heard the term used by a dealer though (?). When rebuild time comes, you have to pull the engine and rebuild it. Normally that means replacing it with a factory remanufactured engine (What both Matt and I have).
This is more from the fact that the engine failure was catastrophic (Seized Piston, btroken Crank, etc...) and the lowest cost route was a reman.
I know a guy that has hotrodded one of these to like 450-500 hp. His wanderlodge goes over 100mph (Now that's Crazy). His is balanced, blueprinted, has some wild cam, uprated turbo, intercooler, special injectors, the 2 or 3 ring pistons, special headbolts even. He is in the racing game though.
According to him the 3208 is a great engine, you just need to watch several things closely (Oil, head, etc...)
Gary |
Jojo Colina (Du1jec) (209.75.20.72)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 1:17 pm: | |
The late 3208T's were built for marine use with ratings of up to 475HP. It is just unfortunate that on the road so many of them are so ill maintained in mid size trucks that it seems people on this board at least seem to think that all of them are trash.
I own both a DD and a CAT. The 8v71 in my MCI and the CAT 3208T 300HP in my Holiday Rambler which is built on a Gillig chassis.
I keep the HR to make the wife happy. It is ready to go anytime. I work on the 8v71 all the time. Maybe someday I will get it all finished. Maybe not.
However, no oil leaks, overheating concerns and very good power make the HR (with the CAT) nice to drive. Neither my vehicles are in revenue service so the ability for the engine to last a million is not really a big thing for me.
Jojo |
Mark (65.40.225.193)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 1:58 pm: | |
I didn't mention in my orriginal message that my cat is turbo charged also.
With less than 40,000 miles, I would hope that the smoke would be a little less!
The dealer told me that the engine was up-graded to a "later" 3208, remanufactured by Cat.
Since Jojo and Gary have similar engines as mine, I still think that I have reason for concern over the smoke. My brother in law has a gillig with the 3208 and his BARELY smokes at all - even after sitting for weeks at a time.
Could my bus need something like injector cleaner or something like that? Or what if it is a broken ring or something like that? Is there any way for me to find out?
By the way, my bus was never a school bus, Although it is the same basic rig as the sKOOLie version. Mine had high back reclining seats, overhead luggage compartments, dual tanks, and highway gears! I can do 70+ mph with no problem! It has a factory one piece door, and it never had the flashing lights up on top.
Well, thanks for all your input on this blu/gray smoke issue!
Mark
75 Gillig 636D
Oregon coast |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (198.88.152.22)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 2:26 pm: | |
As I said, I have a little bluish for just a few minutes. I know I do blow smoke on a hard pull.
Mark, what it the HP of your kitty?
250?
Gary |
mark (65.40.225.193)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 3:58 pm: | |
I think I'm closer to something like 285 HP
I saw it written somewhere, If I can find it again I'll let you know!
Does your cat smoke blue or black when your pulling a hard hill?
Mine doesn't hardly smoke at all after running for 45 minutes or so - even on a hard pull as far as I have seen.
See Ya' !
Mark
75 Gillig 636D |
Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (198.88.152.20)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 4:07 pm: | |
It's on the top of your right valve cover.
(Left side of the bus, given it's a pusher)
Options are (I think):
225: NA
250: Turbo
275: intercooled turbo
As Jojo says, there are other "Special" aplications in Marine and other duties, that range up to around 500hp or so.
Wife says Grey smoke when pullling.
I think we're about ready for our drive to the bay area. ~600 miles or so. just topped off all the fluids.
Gary |
FAST FRED (67.75.99.134)
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2003 - 5:20 am: | |
I trolled the trawler board , and came up with this bit of experience that might help someone.
Although I have been posting of the usefullness of a fuel line site glass (from a refrigeration supply ) for coaches forever.
"With regards to Jose's 3208 idle/uneven RPM problem, which I agree is probably
air entry from the supply system, I thought I'd mention a tool I've used for
years to diagnose "air-in-fuel" problems.
The product is a sight-glass incorporated into a brass fitting, (normally AN)
that is attached at the inlet of the transfer pump. (You don't want any
fittings after this, as they could be the problem child.) As one of the
members pointed out, it is very easy to observe if any air is entering the
"negative pressure" side of the system. This tool is inexpensive and is of a
quality that can be permanently installed on the engine. This, along with the
vacuum gage mounted down-line of you fuel filters, can make fuel system
diagnosis underway much easier. These sight gages are available from many
diesel supply/tool companies. I got mine from Caterpillar, because I was
working there at the time, but Cummins, Snap-On, hydraulic supply houses, and
many others have them available. I think they should be standard equipment on
any new installation. Having a valve installed, prior to the return line check
valve, that allows for diversion of the return fuel into a container via a
clear line can also be of great help. BTW, another sight gage could also be
installed in the return line. This setup allows for easy observation of the
fuel delivery/return system while underway and during loaded conditions
without any tools or disruption of the components.
IMHO, Anything that can help diagnose a component problem, has no moving
parts, dosen't require power, can be used underway and is inexpensive I think
is a reasonable addition to the system.
I don't believe your pump/s need rebuilt Jose. The main down fall of Cat's
sleeve metering system was the ingression of water. If you let water get into
that pump, as well as any of the Stanadyne/CAV pumps, it will kill it. These
pumps, as well as some others, use the fuel passing through the "pressurized"
housing to lubricate the mechanical parts of the pump. Unfortunately, the
water settles to the bottom of the pump and "STAYS". The Cat sleeve-metering
system is worse than the rotary pumps as it has a large area, basiclly a sump,
that can't really be drained. Any water ingression tends to be cumulative and
can build up till it finally gets to the camshaft lobes/journals (the lowest
part of the system) and kills it. Fuel additives attempt to bind with the
water, on a molecular level, and pass it through the system, but this can only
remove very small amounts of moisture and I don't think these additives are
present in marine fuel either at all, or in quantities that will help much.
Again IMHO, If I bought a used 3208 engine, I would get a new top cover gasket
and remove the fuel housing top cover and inspect for the presence of
water/foreign material. It's an easy operation and only requires making sure
you line up the governor control links when you reinstall the cover. Refer to
service manual."
John Stone & Susan Demesquita
Aboard MY "Mariah"
Gwynn's Island Trawler,62 |