| Author | Message | ||
| ROLAND DAVIS (209.251.130.202) Rating: |
Have an MCI-6 which is a great bus. I keep breaking lug bolts on the right front. Have changed wheels, replaced lug bolts and nuts and still keep breaking them - but only on the right front. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. | ||
| Tom Caffrey (Pvcces) (65.74.64.177)
Rating: N/A |
If they are the right ones, I would guess defective bolts or overtightening. I suppose a bad case of undertightening could do it, but the wheel damage from that should be obvious. Normally, the hazard to the manufacturer would mean that they would not produce and sell bad bolts. But the use of high powered one inch air guns is real common, as is the ensuing damage. Good luck! Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576 Suncatcher | ||
| Jim Ashworth (Jimnh) (172.155.116.20)
Rating: N/A |
Did you replace all 10 at the same time or just one at a time as they broke? When one breaks, it weakens the ones either side of it. Those must also be replaced when the broken one is replaced. As to the torque, it is never necessary to exceed 500 lb/ft of torque. A 1" impact wrench at the tire shop can almost double that. Tighten them with a 5 foot pipe over the breaker bar socket wrench and apply 100 lbs of weight to it, or spend big bucks and get an X-12 multiplier tool and torque them to a gentle 45 lb/ft with a regular torque wrench. Jim | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior) (64.229.211.97)
Rating: N/A |
Hello Roland. I'll throw my hat in with Jim. Once a wheel fastener has been over-torqued, it cannot be trusted to clamp properly at proper torque levels, and it cannot be trusted to have its full strength. As Jim has noted, if a companion stud has broken, it's neighbours cannot be trusted to have withstood the stresses. Over-torquing pulls the elasticity out of the threads. It is the elasticity of the threads that keep them tightened. Double trouble is that stretching the studs by over-torquing also weakens them, as they cannot flex anymore, they snap. And both the studs and the nuts are ruined. Do not let anyone near your wheels with an air gun when they are putting the wheels on. Trouble is, we often do not know the history of our wheel fasteners. Maybe another of those "costs of doing business" that we should consider a budgetted replacement of all of them and have the peace of mind that they are all good and not previously abused? happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior) (64.229.211.97)
Rating: N/A |
Sorry, it just occurred to me... You said you had changed the wheels too, but... You do have the correct rims for your wheel fastening system? Hub or stud piloted? happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Derek (24.66.241.23) Rating: N/A |
Could someone please explain to me or show me a picture of the difference between hub and stud piloted wheels? I think I have an idea but I'm not sure, and want to clarify.. | ||
| Mark R. Obtinario (Cowlitzcoach) (204.245.228.78)
Rating: N/A |
You mention you have replaced wheels. If you have changed from steel wheels to aluminum, all of your wheel studs need to be changed. Aluminum wheels are considerably thicker than steel wheels. If you use the same studs, the fastener is not going to have enough threads holding the wheel on. As you go around corners and stress the wheel and studs you will pop the lug nuts off. Also, if you had hub piloted wheels before and changed to stud piloted or vice versa, the studs and nuts are not going to work. For that matter, the wheel will never set on the axle correctly. Make sure you have the correct wheels for the axles that are on your bus. As it has been said before, I will repeat it because it is important--if one or more nuts or studs have broken, replace all of them. Good luck and happy trails. Mark O. | ||
| joel garcia (Orgullonorteno) (24.27.109.54)
Rating: N/A |
check that the nut on the wheel bearings are tight enough | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior) (64.229.211.97)
Rating: N/A |
Hello Derek. Stud piloted wheels are like on your car, there are chamfered edges to each stud hole, and the nuts are shaped to fit the chamfer. Thus, the wheel is centred or piloted by the studs and nuts. Hub piloted, means the big round hole in the centre of the wheel very neatly fits a matching ring on the hub. Each stud hole is not chamfered, they are just straight through holes with square edges. The nuts have little collars on them which clamp against the wheel when tightened. Stud piloted systems are often called Budd wheels. Stud piloted systems also are a little complicated at the back for the duals. The first dual is fastened to the hub alone with a fancy nut that also has external threads and a seat to allow the second wheel to be bolted onto it seperately. Right and left sides have opposite threads. The trick is getting all this thread on thread on thread correctly torqued. As to which is "better", that question will start a minor war on here! I'm sure all will agree that no matter which wheel system one has, one should be darned sure that they know how to properly install theirs! happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| DaveD (64.235.199.199)
Rating: N/A |
Hub piloted wheels are centered by the wheel mating with the hub. The nuts used have a shoulder on them and are flat on the surface that contacts the wheel. Right hand threads are used for the studs and nuts on both the passenger and driver's sides of the vehicle. Stud piloted hweel have a taper on each wheel opening for the studs to go through. The nuts used have a matching taper on the side that faces the wheel when they are installed. It is the mating the the taper of the nut with the taper on the hole in the wheel that aligns or centres the wheel. Stud piloted wheels use right hand thread studs and nuts on the passenger side of the vehicle and left hand thread studs and nuts on the driver's side. Dave Dulmage (MC-8) | ||
| DaveD (64.235.199.199)
Rating: N/A |
Seems like we have just kind of duplicated answers - Timing is everything. DaveD | ||
| Don KS/TX (66.82.9.27)
Rating: N/A |
One common misconception, when changing from steel wheels to the thicker aluminum ones, you do not need to change the studs! They make nuts that are recessed so the same number of threads hold, it just goes down inside the wheel a bit. Works on front and rears. Works fine, saves lots on cost, just as safe. | ||
| Peter E (Sdibaja) (200.76.240.28)
Rating: N/A |
kind of duplicated, but the differnt phrasing finally made it all clear to Me! Thanks to both buswarrior and DaveD! Peter E | ||
| bluegrass (216.207.2.99) Rating: N/A |
I would like to look at some of these Lug Nuts for aluminum wheels that go down Inside the wheel does anyone have the website for them. | ||
| Don KS/TX (66.82.9.29)
Rating: N/A |
This is a kind of confusing site, but you can see the principle at least. It came up first when I did a Google search for "Wheel Nuts for Alcoa Wheels" and had a drawing. Some time searching and one could do better even: http://www.aluminium-wheels.co.uk/alcoa_wheels_technical_data/26_32_mounting.htm | ||
| bluegrass (216.207.2.99) Rating: N/A |
I guess anyone can see what they want to from the Alcoa site about Lug Nuts for Lug Piloted Wheels but the Info from the previous post Is for Hub Piloted Wheels, There was someone looking for Info on the difference between the Hub piloted and Lug piloted, If you look at the previous post you will see a picture of the Hub piloted wheel | ||
| Don KS/TX (66.82.9.34)
Rating: N/A |
Very true Bluegrass, but the principle is the same, just a bevel instead of the flat hub pilot flange. I understood you just wanted to look at the nuts and assumed one could interpolate the simple difference. | ||
| Don KS/TX (66.82.9.34)
Rating: N/A |
For those who might be confused about the question of hub vs stud piloted wheels, here is an excellent site with pictures http://www.trucktires.com/RealAnswers/00v5iss1/ra5.htm | ||
| Don KS/TX (66.82.9.34)
Rating: N/A |
OK Bluegrass, here is a picture of the stud piloted nuts the nuts wanted to see, it shows the method used to accomplish it all. http://www.accuridecorp.com/studpilot.pdf | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior) (64.229.212.196)
Rating: N/A |
Hello all. After looking at these special fasteners to avoid changing to longer studs, I'd be hesitant to use them, as in the pictures, it appears that the stud will not protrude beyond the top if the nut. If one can get some official CVSA memo recognizing these fasteners as legitimate and carry it with you, go ahead, but... They will attract unwanted attention from the enforcement community. They are expecting to see some thread beyond the nuts and are not usually open to being "educated" by motorists at the side of the road, never mind some nut who has converted an old Greyhound... Yes, they will see those things peeping out of their recessed holes while you are at speed, in the dark, from 50 yards away... ask any old trucker about radar eyes! Never mind the nosey types cellphone calls to the troopers from the parking lot while you are in at the Flying J enjoying the buffet. Best not to upset your fuel budget with unwanted tickets and an impoundment? happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| R.C.Bishop (128.123.221.211)
Rating: N/A |
Ho, bus warrior, I'm with you. I am not a structural engineer, but spent years in the construction steel business. They (SE) always called for 3-4 threads showing in the smallest and the largest of beam connections. My experience, at least. Seems reasonable to transfer the logic!  RCB '64 Crown HWC | ||
| Don KS/TX (66.82.9.38)
Rating: N/A |
Sometimes I can get frustrated with you guys. First you state you have to have new studs, then they don't make the nuts I told you about, then the nuts don't suit you, then they are for hub piloted wheels, then they are unsafe. In the Army we used to call it the NIH syndrome, for Not Invented Here. I spent years as a DOT enforcement officer, on the road, for big trucks and buses. I also used them for years, on big trucks, over the road, big heavy loads. Simple answer: They work, they are legal, they show the required amount of threads, they are safe, they are in widespread use. If YOU feel better putting new studs on then do it and say so. Some people like to know the options, including the lower priced legal safe ones, and I was furnishing them. Sorry you got upset over that, I suspect because you blew hundreds of dollars having someone put new studs on cause you did not know about that. Jeez! | ||
| Sam Sperbeck (206.230.105.248) Rating: N/A |
Hi Buswarrior, Any self respecting bus owner who spends the money for aluminum wheels will surely not go around with his nuts hanging out. So, if radar eyes wants to inspect his nuts he will have to stop him and remove those stainless steel nut covers to see if he has 2 or 3 threads sticking out beyond the nut. Not too likely to happen with a public servant. Don KS/TX excepted of course. As Fast Fled says "Do it your way" Thanks, Sam Sperbeck La Crescent, MN | ||
| BrianMCI96A3 (65.41.249.117) Rating: N/A |
Sam, I'd want my nuts covered! | ||
| Don KS/TX (66.82.9.30)
Rating: N/A |
Not sure if you were being nice or nasty Sam. The "threads showing" law was always a sore spot to me anyway. Lets let the "experts" explain to me EXACTLY what those threads accomplish and I will probably change my mind. If three threads are good, would 12 be better? The real point is that with these nuts, you STILL have those almighty valuable threads still showing, whether they do any good or not. | ||
| Sam Sperbeck (206.230.105.248) Rating: N/A |
Hi Don, I was not trying to be nasty to you, I was trying to inject a little humor into a subject that I felt had become near to people calling each other names again. My experience with a vast majority of public servents is that they take those jobs so they won't have to exert themselves too much or because they want to over exersize their athority. I suspect that you were an exception, in that your goal was to make our highways safer. Oftentimes my attempt at humor is not sucessful but that dosen't keep me from trying. Thanks, Sam Sperbeck Lacrescent, MN | ||
| two dogs (67.30.23.78) Rating: N/A |
do you have them in any different colors Don | ||
| Don KS/TX (66.82.9.41)
Rating: N/A |
That is a kind of personal question there two dogs. | ||
| two dogs (67.30.23.78) Rating: N/A |
touche | ||
| R.C.Bishop (128.123.221.163)
Rating: N/A |
Don.....as I recall the three-four threads in the Structural Iron business was a minimum. If one wanted to put an extra sixty or so showing, it was simply a matter of preference.....as long as it did not interfere with something else ( skin, walls, floors, pipes, electrical, etc). Mostly a matter of economics from my point of view. It was not something we questioned. We just did it.... or got to do it over per the construction architect and SE. That gets expensive. I surmise the idea behind the threads showing is to make sure the bolt (stud) and nut are properly torqued, which is where we started on this thread,I believe. FWIW RCB '64 Crown HWC | ||
| Don KS/TX (66.82.9.22)
Rating: N/A |
"Mine is but to do or die, mine is not to question why" comes to mind. In general, lots of "rules" in life have some basis of logic. Hell, maybe I am slipping myself. I was just checking my old Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations for the exact wording, and part 393.205 on wheels don't say anything about threads showing. Did I just dream that it did? Maybe that is where it came from, copied stupidly from some meaningless building code! | ||
| R.C Bishop (128.123.221.167)
Rating: N/A |
Looks like we need some help here!. Are there any SE's out there who could help us understand the "why" of it all? Please???...... Thanx RCB '64 Crown HWC | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A |
I learned "Two or three threads showing" the day after I learned "Righty-tighty, lefty loosey". I think it's related to the shear strength of the threads, having a couple outside the nut support the ones in the nut. I am not an SE nor do I play one on television. Gary | ||
| Don KS/TX (66.82.9.27)
Rating: N/A |
Interesting we have no response on that, could it be just an "old drivers tale" afterall? Don't think so, I am sure it used to exist in writing if it don't now. Several sites I visited are now saying FLUSH with the outer edge of the nut. I like that. | ||
| jim mci-9 (209.240.198.60) Rating: N/A |
unoficial standpoint:::: a 3/8 bolt needs 3/8" worth of threads to grip properly.... a 1/2 bolt needs 1/2"... etc... get the idea??? i saw this somewwhere in print..in a caterpillar maunal.... i'll look again for it...so a 1" bolt needs a nut that is 1" thick to get the proper grip... all the thread outside is wasted.....maybe?? | ||
| John the busboy (12.82.136.95) Rating: N/A |
This summer I replaced the 6.14 drive axle in my school bus with a 4.11 drive axle from a Freightliner. The 6.14 axle had stud piloted hubs. The 4.11 axle had hub piloted hubs. I had a choice of running two different wheel types, or converting the hub piloting to stud piloting. I choose the latter. Pounding out the old studs was easy. Installing the new ones was serious work. But they do work well. Buying new studs of the right length is important....the NAPA truck guy explained it all to me. Just thougth I would share my experiences with you. Driving the bus with the 4.11 is like driving a new vehicle. It's a brave new world.... John the busboy | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior) (64.229.212.63)
Rating: N/A |
My concern is the busnut without a highway industry background. The ones who will unwittingly fall prey to a (add your words here) enforcement type. Those of us with the backgrounds to go toe to toe with an enforcement officer need no advice as to what their bus needs to look like, hell, some of us go down the road waving a red flag at the bulls on purpose! For the record, I won't mind saying there are many cops, DOT folks and enforcement officers out there handing out untrue directions. After all, what repurcussions do they have for being wrong? Their job is to spot something that looks like it might be wrong, lay a charge, and let the courts and the individual involved work it out. No, I am not grinding an axe, just pointing out a fact. They are not paid to be right, they are paid to look for something that looks wrong. The folks with limited experience out on the highway need to know that unconventional things attract unwanted attention, and they need help to know what conventional is. Then they may decide how much nuts they feel comfortable exposing to the wind? That is the power of this board, where one can find all manner of input. The more posts, the better the chance for the middle of the road to appear out of the fog? Vive la difference! (french for "your way"?) happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Johnny (67.242.221.170) Rating: N/A |
"No, I am not grinding an axe, just pointing out a fact. They are not paid to be right, they are paid to look for something that looks wrong." No, actually, they're paid to fill the coffers of the gov't they work for. Anything else is, at best, a distant second on the list. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A |
there's a book out there called "The Death of Common Sense, how laws are are strangling America". It gives wonderful examples how beareaucrats and gub'ment functionaries, work to do nothing and basically clog the system, and statuatory regulations are killing us. Gary (Libretarian at large) | ||
| Buswarrior (Buswarrior) (64.229.213.132)
Rating: N/A |
well, Johnny and Gary, that's another way of putting it....! happy coaching! buswarrior | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A |
The thing is that we have, through statuatory regulation, tried to define every possible situation, removing the need for common sense, into a set of rules where every possible situation is defined and following this set of rules, complete idiots could run things. Musta worked, we seem to have idiots running things nowadays. Gary | ||
| RJ Long (Rjlong) (24.127.74.29)
Rating: N/A |
"Musta worked, we seem to have idiots running things nowadays." Just look at Californication - what a zoo this place is becoming!! RJ PD4106-2784 Fresno CA | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A |
No kidding--but it should scare the hell out of everyone, even those who never intend to come here. Kalifornia is the world's fifth largest economy, and sets standards for the rest of the world. I'll be leaving here about the time my 'Bird is done. (No coincidence). My boat will still be here though... Gary | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A |
looks like we have "da Terminator" for a govnah. Gary | ||
| madbrit (65.73.176.72) Rating: N/A |
Gee, I am so sorry Guys. Still every woman in the State will be suing for sexual harrassment, once Arnie gets into power. So get your wives and girlfriends in line and you could all have new Prevosts...... LOL. Peter. | ||
| Gary McFarland (Gearheadgary) (209.128.99.4)
Rating: N/A |
All the women I know just want to be groped. Gary | ||
| R.C.Bishop (128.123.221.195)
Rating: N/A |
Sheeeeesh.....what's going on with this board? Is this the best WE can do? I think everybody , including Ian, deserves better than this, if only for the effort of participation. Hasta La Vista....for a while.  RCB |
